Military Strategy And Teleportation

[Tim Bruening]

In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
poisons, and all
sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
to block the formation of Gateways?

The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
transporters).

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Tim Bruening wrote:
> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
> connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
> distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
> enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
> invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
> poisons, and all
> sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
> to block the formation of Gateways?

Stephen Donaldson had this as an interesting issue in his Mordant's
Need series; people couldn't go through the Imagers' mirrors (well, it's
more complicated than that, but it's correct to a first approximation),
but everything else could go through -- so if you carried a few mirrors
with you, you didn't have to carry any other supplies for your army.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Your Name]

In article <***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening
<***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
> connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
> distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
> enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
> invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
> poisons, and all sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any
> way to use the OP to block the formation of Gateways?
>
> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
> can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
> which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
> transporters).

The same could be said in the real world for long-range missiles, bombs
from high-altitude planes, or even submarines dropping off small strike
forces on deserted night time beaches, especially when aimed at less
technologically advanced countries.

[Howard Brazee]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:41:03 -0800, Tim Bruening
<***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
>connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
>distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
>enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
>invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
>poisons, and all
>sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
>to block the formation of Gateways?
>
>The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
>can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
>which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
>transporters).


Steven Brust has wars in a world with magical teleportation. The
assumption is what one "magic" can create, another can defend against.

There's a long history of unstoppable weapons being created that would
eliminate war. This is one more.

One book where teleportation wasn't stopped is _Born to Exile_, by
Phillis Eisenstein.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[David Johnston]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 16:44:32 -0600, Howard Brazee <***@brazee.net>
wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:41:03 -0800, Tim Bruening
><***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>>In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
>>connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
>>distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
>>enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
>>invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
>>poisons, and all
>>sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
>>to block the formation of Gateways?
>>
>>The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
>>can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
>>which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
>>transporters).
>
>
>Steven Brust has wars in a world with magical teleportation. The
>assumption is what one "magic" can create, another can defend against.
>
>There's a long history of unstoppable weapons being created that would
>eliminate war.

Not war. Strategy. Of course a big question is "You may be able to
teleport an army behind enemy lines, but can you keep it supplied?"
Without a conventional supply line your teleporters have to be able to
teleport about as much mass as that of the force per week every week.
Just what is the maximum capacity of your teleporter?

[Jonathan Schattke]

On 3/27/2010 6:01 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> Not war. Strategy. Of course a big question is "You may be able to
> teleport an army behind enemy lines, but can you keep it supplied?"
> Without a conventional supply line your teleporters have to be able to
> teleport about as much mass as that of the force per week every week.
> Just what is the maximum capacity of your teleporter?

Up until the late 19th century, the standard model was for armies to
steal from the land they passed through.

[John F. Eldredge]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:10:56 -0500, Jonathan Schattke wrote:

> On 3/27/2010 6:01 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>> Not war. Strategy. Of course a big question is "You may be able to
>> teleport an army behind enemy lines, but can you keep it supplied?"
>> Without a conventional supply line your teleporters have to be able to
>> teleport about as much mass as that of the force per week every week.
>> Just what is the maximum capacity of your teleporter?
>
> Up until the late 19th century, the standard model was for armies to
> steal from the land they passed through.

However, even prior to then, if you were crossing a desert or other
barren ground, or for that matter, sailing across the sea, you had to
have supplies with you, or else a continuous back-and-forth supply train.

[Howard Brazee]

I like it in _Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell_ where the generals had
no use for magicians in their war against Magicians - until the
magician found out that a big worry was wearing out shoes, and he came
up with a way to make roads shorter for the English.

Not teleportation, but similar.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Tim Bruening]

Jonathan Schattke wrote:

> On 3/27/2010 6:01 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > Not war. Strategy. Of course a big question is "You may be able to
> > teleport an army behind enemy lines, but can you keep it supplied?"
> > Without a conventional supply line your teleporters have to be able to
> > teleport about as much mass as that of the force per week every week.
> > Just what is the maximum capacity of your teleporter?
>
> Up until the late 19th century, the standard model was for armies to
> steal from the land they passed through.

That won't be possible at Shayol Ghul, but hopefully, Rand and company will
only need to be there a short time to seal the Bore properly.

[Tim Bruening]

David Johnston wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 16:44:32 -0600, Howard Brazee <***@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:41:03 -0800, Tim Bruening
> ><***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> >>In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
> >>connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
> >>distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
> >>enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
> >>invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
> >>poisons, and all
> >>sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
> >>to block the formation of Gateways?
> >>
> >>The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
> >>can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
> >>which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
> >>transporters).
> >
> >
> >Steven Brust has wars in a world with magical teleportation. The
> >assumption is what one "magic" can create, another can defend against.
> >
> >There's a long history of unstoppable weapons being created that would
> >eliminate war.
>
> Not war. Strategy. Of course a big question is "You may be able to
> teleport an army behind enemy lines, but can you keep it supplied?"
> Without a conventional supply line your teleporters have to be able to
> teleport about as much mass as that of the force per week every week.
> Just what is the maximum capacity of your teleporter?

At the end of one of the Wheel of Time books, 13 Aes Sedai linked together
were able to make a Gateway large enough to admit a few hundred AS, several
hundred novices, and at least 10,000 soldiers. On the other hand, the two
Asha'man who are with one Lord Perrin say that it would take them days to
transport several thousand refugees back to their homes.

Rand did not use Gateways to transport food to Arad Doman. He had to hire
several hundred ships.

The channeling needed to create Gateways can be sensed by other channelers of
the same gender. When Rand Travels with his army to Shayol Ghul, I assume
that the Forsakens will be able to sense the Gateway and move to intercept
with whatever channeling Darkfriends they can bring with them. Trollocs and
other Shadowsprawn can't survive going through Gateways.

[Nyrath the nearly wise]

On 3/27/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
> connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
> distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
> enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
> invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
> poisons, and all
> sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
> to block the formation of Gateways?
>
> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
> can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
> which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
> transporters).

Yes, this was discussed in Larry Niven's "The theory and
practice of teleportation."

There are three types of teleportation:

[1] The process requires a transmitter unit at the origin
to send the object/person, and also requires a receiver unit
at the destination. Example: the basic Star Gate

[2] The process requires a transmitter at the origin,
but does not require a receiver at the destination.
Example: when Captain Kirk beams down to an unexplored
wilderness planet

[3] The process requires a receiver at the destination,
but does not require a transmitter at the origin.
Example: when Scotty beams up Captain Kirk from the
wilderness planet

With version [2], Niven said:
"RESULT: We can put a bomb anywhere. The idea was used at least once, in THE
PERSON FROM PORLOCK. In practice, a government that owned one of these
would-again-own the world. Two such governments would probably bomb each other
back to a preteleport level of civilization. Presumably it could happen any
number of times."

With version [3] Niven said:
"RESULT: Thieves capable of stealing anything from anyone in perfect safety.
Such machinery was discovered by Seaton, and later by DuQuesne, in THE SKYLARK
OF SPACE. In practice, anyone who has such machinery is king of the world. If
many men have transmitterless receivers, society falls apart. When society
stops making parts for the machines, the machines fall apart, and everything
starts over."

So Niven concludes that with [2] or [3] the result is not some new
kind of future society, instead you get a short war.

[Tim Bruening]

Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:

> On 3/27/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
> > In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
> > connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
> > distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
> > enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
> > invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
> > poisons, and all
> > sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
> > to block the formation of Gateways?
> >
> > The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
> > can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
> > which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
> > transporters).
>
> Yes, this was discussed in Larry Niven's "The theory and
> practice of teleportation."
>
> There are three types of teleportation:
>
> [1] The process requires a transmitter unit at the origin
> to send the object/person, and also requires a receiver unit
> at the destination. Example: the basic Star Gate
>
> [2] The process requires a transmitter at the origin,
> but does not require a receiver at the destination.
> Example: when Captain Kirk beams down to an unexplored
> wilderness planet

The WoT Gateways require a One Power channeler at the origin, but nothing at the
destination. The channeler has to be familiar with the origin. The Gateway
eliminates the space between origin and destination. You just walk through.

[William George Ferguson]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:08:14 -0400, Nyrath the nearly wise
<***@project.rho.invalid> wrote:

>On 3/27/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
>> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
>> connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
>> distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
>> enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
>> invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
>> poisons, and all
>> sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
>> to block the formation of Gateways?
>>
>> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
>> can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
>> which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
>> transporters).
>
>Yes, this was discussed in Larry Niven's "The theory and
>practice of teleportation."
>
>There are three types of teleportation:

Shirley Niven would ahve addressed the most obvious type ("we don't need no
steenking transmitters/receivers"), examples including Stars My Destination
or any of McCaffery's Pern books.

--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)

[Scott Fluhrer]

"William George Ferguson" <***@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:08:14 -0400, Nyrath the nearly wise
> <***@project.rho.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 3/27/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
>>> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
>>> connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
>>> distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
>>> enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
>>> invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
>>> poisons, and all
>>> sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
>>> to block the formation of Gateways?
>>>
>>> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
>>> can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
>>> which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
>>> transporters).
>>
>>Yes, this was discussed in Larry Niven's "The theory and
>>practice of teleportation."
>>
>>There are three types of teleportation:
>
> Shirley Niven would ahve addressed the most obvious type ("we don't need
> no
> steenking transmitters/receivers"), examples including Stars My
> Destination
> or any of McCaffery's Pern books.

Actually, in those cases, you do have transmitters, it's just that the
transmitter gets transported as well.

--
poncho

[s***@freenet.co.uk]

And verily, didst William George Ferguson <***@newsguy.com> hastily babble thusly:
>>Yes, this was discussed in Larry Niven's "The theory and
>>practice of teleportation."
>>
>>There are three types of teleportation:
>
> Shirley Niven would ahve addressed the most obvious type ("we don't need no
> steenking transmitters/receivers"), examples including Stars My Destination
> or any of McCaffery's Pern books.

And indeed, the kids tv programme from the 70s (which made a short comeback
in the 90s) called "The Tomorrow People"... They'd "jaunt" all over the
place using nothing but their own psychic powers boosted with a little help
from their jaunting belts (which aided in navigation).

Or indeed, the 1960s comedies, bewitched and I dream of Jeanie. :)
--
| ***@freenet.co.uk | |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
| in | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
| Computer Science | - Father Jack in "Father Ted" |

[Tim Bruening]

William George Ferguson wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:08:14 -0400, Nyrath the nearly wise
> <***@project.rho.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 3/27/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
> >> connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
> >> distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
> >> enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
> >> invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
> >> poisons, and all
> >> sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
> >> to block the formation of Gateways?
> >>
> >> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
> >> can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
> >> which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
> >> transporters).
> >
> >Yes, this was discussed in Larry Niven's "The theory and
> >practice of teleportation."
> >
> >There are three types of teleportation:
>
> Shirley Niven would ahve addressed the most obvious type ("we don't need no
> steenking transmitters/receivers"), examples including Stars My Destination
> or any of McCaffery's Pern books.

In the WoT, the teleportation "device" is a channeler of the One Power, who
creates a Gateway from one place to another.

I expect that the Forsakens have already set up "Gateway Warning Wards" all
around Shayol Ghul, that Rand sets up such wards around his bedroom each night
and around the places he frequents, and the Egwene will set up such wards all
around the White Tower.

Another universe with teleportation: Harry Potter.

[John VanSickle]

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:08:14 -0400, Nyrath the nearly wise
>> <***@project.rho.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/27/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
>>>> connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
>>>> distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
>>>> enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
>>>> invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
>>>> poisons, and all
>>>> sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
>>>> to block the formation of Gateways?
>>>>
>>>> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
>>>> can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
>>>> which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
>>>> transporters).

In the Lensmen series, this occurred to the heroes of the tale early on,
and after mentioning the possibility to one of the more gifted (and
cantankerous) bleeding-edge physicists of the day, the answer came that
a strong gravitational field prevented the formation of a stable
gateway. Gateways could not be made within a certain radius from an
active star.

Furthermore, gateways took a finite amount of time to open, and the
distances *inside* the gate's pathway were finite as well. An enemy
could not simply pop open the gate, drop the bomb, and pop back, in the
same amount of time that we could open a door, chuck a hand grenade, and
close the door again.

So in the time that it took a gate to start opening, and then for
whatever was coming through to get through, and then for the intelligent
forces coming through to get their bearings, a well-disciplined fleet
was ready to meet whatever came through.

The good doctor was not always consistent with this; gates could be
opened from a planet, which would have much stronger gravity to deal
with than is felt from Sol at 1.25 astronomical units.

> Another universe with teleportation: Harry Potter.

With appropriate means to block most such teleportation. But house
elves, under command, can pierce such charms. Dunno how they dealt with
the suicide house-elf bomber problem...

Regards,
John

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---

[Shawn Wilson]

On Mar 29, 11:32 am, John VanSickle <***@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> In the Lensmen series, this occurred to the heroes of the tale early on,
> and after mentioning the possibility to one of the more gifted (and
> cantankerous) bleeding-edge physicists of the day, the answer came that
> a strong gravitational field prevented the formation of a stable
> gateway.  Gateways could not be made within a certain radius from an
> active star.



They could not EXIT within a certain radius. They could be created
easily enough.



> Furthermore, gateways took a finite amount of time to open, and the
> distances *inside* the gate's pathway were finite as well.  An enemy
> could not simply pop open the gate, drop the bomb, and pop back, in the
> same amount of time that we could open a door, chuck a hand grenade, and
> close the door again.



BTW, the 'grenades' Boskone and the Patrol are using are mobile
PLANETS... (imagine a game of conkers, now expand the scale...)

The Patrol had multiple different weapons* capable of destroying them.

*Ok, you dragged it out of me: Sunbeam, negasphere, other planets


> The good doctor was not always consistent with this; gates could be
> opened from a planet, which would have much stronger gravity to deal
> with than is felt from Sol at 1.25 astronomical units.



He was consistent, womholes could be created within gravity wells,
they just couldn't exit within them.

Well... wormholes capable of transiting a planet couldn't. Smaller
ones of starship size could.

(why, yes, I DID just listen to the audiobooks of three of the
Kinnison books. And, yes, the narrator DOES have an annoying. Habit
of breaking up sentences...)

[c***@gmail.com]

In article <b0c8de64-2b2a-4e92-888a-***@35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Shawn Wilson <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Well... wormholes capable of transiting a planet couldn't. Smaller
>ones of starship size could.
>
>(why, yes, I DID just listen to the audiobooks of three of the
>Kinnison books. And, yes, the narrator DOES have an annoying. Habit
>of breaking up sentences...)

Is it Shatner? Please tell us it's Shatner.


--
chuk
(formerly ***@sfu.ca)

[Shawn Wilson]

On Mar 31, 1:38 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> In article <b0c8de64-2b2a-4e92-888a-***@35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> Shawn Wilson  <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Well... wormholes capable of transiting a planet couldn't.  Smaller
> >ones of starship size could.
>
> >(why, yes, I DID just listen to the audiobooks of three of the
> >Kinnison books.  And, yes, the narrator DOES have an annoying.  Habit
> >of breaking up sentences...)
>
> Is it Shatner? Please tell us it's Shatner.


Sorry, it isn't. Books in Motion, Reed McCaullum.

He doesn't do it for effect. It's like he hits the end of the page
and breaks it like the end of a sentence. It is very annoying.

BTW, the audiobook of Have Spacesuit, Will Travel is excellent. Full
cast. (ie more than one person reading. Women's voices sounding like
women and everything...)

[William George Ferguson]

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:32:30 -0400, John VanSickle
<***@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Tim Bruening wrote:
>>
>> William George Ferguson wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:08:14 -0400, Nyrath the nearly wise
>>> <***@project.rho.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/27/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
>>>>> connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
>>>>> distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
>>>>> enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
>>>>> invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
>>>>> poisons, and all
>>>>> sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
>>>>> to block the formation of Gateways?
>>>>>
>>>>> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
>>>>> can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
>>>>> which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
>>>>> transporters).
>
>In the Lensmen series, this occurred to the heroes of the tale early on,
>and after mentioning the possibility to one of the more gifted (and
>cantankerous) bleeding-edge physicists of the day, the answer came that
>a strong gravitational field prevented the formation of a stable
>gateway. Gateways could not be made within a certain radius from an
>active star.
>
>Furthermore, gateways took a finite amount of time to open, and the
>distances *inside* the gate's pathway were finite as well. An enemy
>could not simply pop open the gate, drop the bomb, and pop back, in the
>same amount of time that we could open a door, chuck a hand grenade, and
>close the door again.
>
>So in the time that it took a gate to start opening, and then for
>whatever was coming through to get through, and then for the intelligent
>forces coming through to get their bearings, a well-disciplined fleet
>was ready to meet whatever came through.
>
>The good doctor was not always consistent with this; gates could be
>opened from a planet, which would have much stronger gravity to deal
>with than is felt from Sol at 1.25 astronomical units.

He was actually very consistent about that. Maybe consistently wrong, but
consistent. From the beginning, what established Cardynge's Limit was the
combination of mass of the star and distance from the star. Planetary
gravitional fields didn't affect the terminus of the hyperspatial tube
(hey, you could send planets 'through' it), only stars. When tube was used
at a planetary surface, he was careful to have his protagonists note that
the planet was outside Cardynge's Limit for its star (for example,
Radelix).

--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)

[John VanSickle]

William George Ferguson wrote:

> He was actually very consistent about that. Maybe consistently wrong, but
> consistent. From the beginning, what established Cardynge's Limit was the
> combination of mass of the star and distance from the star. Planetary
> gravitional fields didn't affect the terminus of the hyperspatial tube
> (hey, you could send planets 'through' it), only stars. When tube was used
> at a planetary surface, he was careful to have his protagonists note that
> the planet was outside Cardynge's Limit for its star (for example,
> Radelix).

But I call BS on this, because while the surface gravity of Radelix was
probably in the ballpark of what we're used to here on Tellus (~9.8
m/sec^2), the acceleration of the Sol's gravity at its Cardynge Limit is
far smaller, on the order of ~3.8 mm/sec^2, over three orders of
magnitude smaller. Surely, if 3.8 mm/sec^2 is enough to stop the
Boskonians from popping a bomb into Cardynge's lab, then the far
stronger surface gravity of Radelix ought to prevent the same anywhere
within at least twenty planetary radii.

Admittedly, the fact that a tubeway can start in a strong gravitational
field, but not end in one, is no contradiction, since the starting end
is much closer to the generator.

Regards,
John

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

John VanSickle wrote:
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>
>> He was actually very consistent about that. Maybe consistently wrong,
>> but
>> consistent. From the beginning, what established Cardynge's Limit was
>> the
>> combination of mass of the star and distance from the star. Planetary
>> gravitional fields didn't affect the terminus of the hyperspatial tube
>> (hey, you could send planets 'through' it), only stars. When tube was
>> used
>> at a planetary surface, he was careful to have his protagonists note that
>> the planet was outside Cardynge's Limit for its star (for example,
>> Radelix).
>
> But I call BS on this, because while the surface gravity of Radelix was
> probably in the ballpark of what we're used to here on Tellus (~9.8
> m/sec^2), the acceleration of the Sol's gravity at its Cardynge Limit is
> far smaller, on the order of ~3.8 mm/sec^2, over three orders of
> magnitude smaller.

Given that this is a universe in which it's possible to make a device
that nullifies inertia without otherwise interfering in life processes,
I find it hard to call bullshit on this. It may be that it's the
presence of the star ITSELF (actively fusing matter converter)
*combined* with the gravity well. It may be that it is a matter of being
far enough away from a gravity well whose central/surface gravity is
greater than, say, 10G (the Sun's "surface" gravity is, IIRC, about 28G
or close to 280m/s^2), in which case the Earth, or Radelix', surface
gravity is well below the limit. And so on.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Tim Bruening]

John VanSickle wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> > William George Ferguson wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:08:14 -0400, Nyrath the nearly wise
> >> <***@project.rho.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 3/27/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
> >>>> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
> >>>> connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
> >>>> distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend territories when the
> >>>> enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No area is safe from
> >>>> invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
> >>>> poisons, and all
> >>>> sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
> >>>> to block the formation of Gateways?
> >>>>
> >>>> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
> >>>> can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
> >>>> which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
> >>>> transporters).
>
> In the Lensmen series, this occurred to the heroes of the tale early on,
> and after mentioning the possibility to one of the more gifted (and
> cantankerous) bleeding-edge physicists of the day, the answer came that
> a strong gravitational field prevented the formation of a stable
> gateway. Gateways could not be made within a certain radius from an
> active star.
>
> Furthermore, gateways took a finite amount of time to open, and the
> distances *inside* the gate's pathway were finite as well. An enemy
> could not simply pop open the gate, drop the bomb, and pop back, in the
> same amount of time that we could open a door, chuck a hand grenade, and
> close the door again.
>
> So in the time that it took a gate to start opening, and then for
> whatever was coming through to get through, and then for the intelligent
> forces coming through to get their bearings, a well-disciplined fleet
> was ready to meet whatever came through.
>
> The good doctor was not always consistent with this; gates could be
> opened from a planet, which would have much stronger gravity to deal
> with than is felt from Sol at 1.25 astronomical units.
>
> > Another universe with teleportation: Harry Potter.
>
> With appropriate means to block most such teleportation. But house
> elves, under command, can pierce such charms. Dunno how they dealt with
> the suicide house-elf bomber problem...

Now there's an idea: Voldemort ordering a House Elf to bomb Hogwarts.

[Richard R. Hershberger]

On Mar 27, 7:08 pm, Nyrath the nearly wise
<***@project.rho.invalid> wrote:
> On 3/27/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create Gateways
> > connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take armies vast
> > distances in seconds.  How the heck do you defend territories when the
> > enemy can show up anywhere at any second?  No area is safe from
> > invasion!  Furthermore, Gateways can be used to transport bombs,
> > poisons, and all
> > sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps.  Is there any way to use the OP
> > to block the formation of Gateways?
>
> > The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
> > can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
> > which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
> > transporters).
>
> Yes, this was discussed in Larry Niven's "The theory and
> practice of teleportation."
>
> There are three types of teleportation:
>
> [1] The process requires a transmitter unit at the origin
> to send the object/person, and also requires a receiver unit
> at the destination. Example: the basic Star Gate
>
> [2] The process requires a transmitter at the origin,
> but does not require a receiver at the destination.
> Example: when Captain Kirk beams down to an unexplored
> wilderness planet
>
> [3] The process requires a receiver at the destination,
> but does not require a transmitter at the origin.
> Example: when Scotty beams up Captain Kirk from the
> wilderness planet
>
> With version [2], Niven said:
> "RESULT: We can put a bomb anywhere. The idea was used at least once, in THE
> PERSON FROM PORLOCK. In practice, a government that owned one of these
> would-again-own the world. Two such governments would probably bomb each other
> back to a preteleport level of civilization. Presumably it could happen any
> number of times."
>
> With version [3] Niven said:
> "RESULT: Thieves capable of stealing anything from anyone in perfect safety.
> Such machinery was discovered by Seaton, and later by DuQuesne, in THE SKYLARK
> OF SPACE. In practice, anyone who has such machinery is king of the world. If
> many men have transmitterless receivers, society falls apart. When society
> stops making parts for the machines, the machines fall apart, and everything
> starts over."
>
> So Niven concludes that with [2] or [3] the result is not some new
> kind of future society, instead you get a short war.

As has been pointed out elsethread, in the real world several
governments have the ability to place nuclear bombs effectively
wherever they wish. This has not yet resulted in their bombing each
other to a pre-nuke level. Perhaps the question is whether the source
of the teleported bomb could be traced. An ICBM launch can't really
be hidden. While in theory an SLBM might be done anonymously, in
practice I suspect this couldn't be done reliably. If teleportation
can be performed without the origin being traced, then Niven's
scenario becomes more likely.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Tim Bruening]

jack wrote:

> We have seen the WoT folk rediscover Traveling but so far the gates
> have been created by only a few people. We don't know yet what a
> world full of Gate-Makers would be like, as in the ancient days.
> People capable of making them must have come up with defenses as
> well. Otherwise the real use of a gate would be not as a flanking
> tool but as an offensive weapon, especially if you could get it to
> open up horizontally, to destroy opposing armies on the ground by
> slicing them up.

In Knife of Dreams, Rand and his Asha'man did indeed use Gates as an
offensive weapon. The Deathgates opened and closed rapidly while
spinning madly and moving among the Trollocs and Fades. Many Trollocs
and Fades were sliced up or teleported by the Deathgates. Oddly enough,
those Trollocs and Fades who went through the gates died, since they,
being constructs of the OP, can't survive going through gates!

Chora trees are also constructs of the OP. Would they die if taken
through a Travel Gate?

What happens if a Gate collides with another Gate?

[David DeLaney]

Tim Bruening <***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>What happens if a Gate collides with another Gate?

The canonical answer is "A lot of short-lived but interesting byproducts".

Dave "SSOPC" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Tim Bruening]

David DeLaney wrote:

> Tim Bruening <***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >What happens if a Gate collides with another Gate?
>
> The canonical answer is "A lot of short-lived but interesting byproducts".

When did Robert Jordan give that answer, and where?

[David DeLaney]

Tim Bruening <***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>David DeLaney wrote:
>> Tim Bruening <***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >What happens if a Gate collides with another Gate?
>>
>> The canonical answer is "A lot of short-lived but interesting byproducts".
>
>When did Robert Jordan give that answer, and where?

He hasn't yet.

Dave "so many whooshbirds" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Tim Bruening]

David DeLaney wrote:

> Tim Bruening <***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >David DeLaney wrote:
> >> Tim Bruening <***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >> >What happens if a Gate collides with another Gate?
> >>
> >> The canonical answer is "A lot of short-lived but interesting byproducts".
> >
> >When did Robert Jordan give that answer, and where?
>
> He hasn't yet.

Then who did give that answer, and why is it canoical?

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 3/29/2010 4:41 PM, Tim Bruening wrote:
>
>
> David DeLaney wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening<***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>>> Tim Bruening<***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>> What happens if a Gate collides with another Gate?
>>>>
>>>> The canonical answer is "A lot of short-lived but interesting byproducts".
>>>
>>> When did Robert Jordan give that answer, and where?
>>
>> He hasn't yet.
>
> Then who did give that answer, and why is it canoical?
>
He didn't say _what_ it was canonical for.

--
Murphy was an optimist.

[Wouter Valentijn]

Tim Bruening wrote:
> In the Wheel of Time universe, channelers of the OP can create
> Gateways connecting two places vast distances apart, and thus take
> armies vast distances in seconds. How the heck do you defend
> territories when the enemy can show up anywhere at any second? No
> area is safe from invasion! Furthermore, Gateways can be used to
> transport bombs, poisons, and all
> sorts of nasty stuff into enemy camps. Is there any way to use the OP
> to block the formation of Gateways?
>
> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although shields
> can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring transporters
> which look like a bunch of stargates stacked horizontally, and Asgard
> transporters).

In Star Trek there have been 'interdimensional' transporters. They could go
through shields and transport over a distance of light years. There was no
defence againat them. Only problem was that it was dangerous to ones health.
And also they had the left over tech of the Iconians who could create
gateways over vast distances, without a receiver at the end.
In Star Trek transporters have been used to transport bombs.
The same goes for the Perry Rhodan universe in whicht they have some type of
canon that /is/ basicly a transporter that delivers explosive charges. But
those could be blocked by sufficient shielding.

Defence? The best defence would be to take out the transporter.

--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

http://www.nksf.scifics.com/startrek.html

Buffy: This is the Initiative Xander. Military guys and scientists do not
make out with each other.
Xander: Well maybe that's what's wrong with the world. Ever think about
that?

'Buffy the Vampire Slayer 4x14: Goodbye Iowa'

liam=mail

[William December Starr]

In article <4baf9e6e$0$22918$***@news.xs4all.nl>,
"Wouter Valentijn" <***@valentijn.nu> said:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
>> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although
>> shields can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring
>> transporters which look like a bunch of stargates stacked
>> horizontally, and Asgard transporters).

I believe that at least at the SG-1 stargate the U.S. military
installed a big honking metal shield that could be put in place
right at the gate's interface plane with normal space, preventing
anything from coming through (unless/until the enemy pounded its
way through it anyway).

> In Star Trek there have been 'interdimensional' transporters. They
> could go through shields and transport over a distance of light
> years. There was no defence againat them. Only problem was that it
> was dangerous to ones health.

To transport through, or to operate?

If only the former, that's hardly an overwhelming military drawback.
(Heck, even the latter might not be, if your situation is desperate
enough or the gain is big enough.)

> And also they had the left over tech of the Iconians who could
> create gateways over vast distances, without a receiver at the
> end.

Wasn't all the Iconian gateway tech that they discovered destroyed
by the end of the only episode it showed up in?

-- wds

[Tim Bruening]

William December Starr wrote:

> In article <4baf9e6e$0$22918$***@news.xs4all.nl>,
> "Wouter Valentijn" <***@valentijn.nu> said:
>
> > Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> >> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although
> >> shields can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring
> >> transporters which look like a bunch of stargates stacked
> >> horizontally, and Asgard transporters).
>
> I believe that at least at the SG-1 stargate the U.S. military
> installed a big honking metal shield that could be put in place
> right at the gate's interface plane with normal space, preventing
> anything from coming through (unless/until the enemy pounded its
> way through it anyway).
>
> > In Star Trek there have been 'interdimensional' transporters. They
> > could go through shields and transport over a distance of light
> > years. There was no defence againat them. Only problem was that it
> > was dangerous to ones health.
>
> To transport through, or to operate?
>
> If only the former, that's hardly an overwhelming military drawback.
> (Heck, even the latter might not be, if your situation is desperate
> enough or the gain is big enough.)
>
> > And also they had the left over tech of the Iconians who could
> > create gateways over vast distances, without a receiver at the
> > end.
>
> Wasn't all the Iconian gateway tech that they discovered destroyed
> by the end of the only episode it showed up in?

Another Iconian gateway showed up in a DS9 episode in the Gamma
Quandrant.

[Wouter Valentijn]

Tim Bruening wrote:
> William December Starr wrote:
>
>> In article <4baf9e6e$0$22918$***@news.xs4all.nl>,
>> "Wouter Valentijn" <***@valentijn.nu> said:
>>
>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>
>>>> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although
>>>> shields can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring
>>>> transporters which look like a bunch of stargates stacked
>>>> horizontally, and Asgard transporters).
>>
>> I believe that at least at the SG-1 stargate the U.S. military
>> installed a big honking metal shield that could be put in place
>> right at the gate's interface plane with normal space, preventing
>> anything from coming through (unless/until the enemy pounded its
>> way through it anyway).

Yes, the iris.
At one time an enemy attack was about /heating/ the thing.

>>
>>> In Star Trek there have been 'interdimensional' transporters. They
>>> could go through shields and transport over a distance of light
>>> years. There was no defence againat them. Only problem was that it
>>> was dangerous to ones health.
>>
>> To transport through, or to operate?
>>
>> If only the former, that's hardly an overwhelming military drawback.
>> (Heck, even the latter might not be, if your situation is desperate
>> enough or the gain is big enough.)

If you used it too many times your health would be damaged in such a way you
would die. At least that was the case in the TNG eps.
There was something similar in the DS9 series. Used by the Dominion. But no
word on health risks there.

>>
>>> And also they had the left over tech of the Iconians who could
>>> create gateways over vast distances, without a receiver at the
>>> end.
>>
>> Wasn't all the Iconian gateway tech that they discovered destroyed
>> by the end of the only episode it showed up in?
>
> Another Iconian gateway showed up in a DS9 episode in the Gamma
> Quandrant.

Indeed.

--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

http://www.nksf.scifics.com/startrek.html

Buffy: This is the Initiative Xander. Military guys and scientists do not
make out with each other.
Xander: Well maybe that's what's wrong with the world. Ever think about
that?

'Buffy the Vampire Slayer 4x14: Goodbye Iowa'

liam=mail

[Anim8rFSK]

In article <hoo8hr$rio$***@panix1.panix.com>,
***@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:

> In article <4baf9e6e$0$22918$***@news.xs4all.nl>,
> "Wouter Valentijn" <***@valentijn.nu> said:
>
> > Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> >> The same problem obtains in Star Trek (transporters, although
> >> shields can block transporters) and Star Gate (Stargates, Ring
> >> transporters which look like a bunch of stargates stacked
> >> horizontally, and Asgard transporters).
>
> I believe that at least at the SG-1 stargate the U.S. military
> installed a big honking metal shield that could be put in place
> right at the gate's interface plane with normal space, preventing
> anything from coming through (unless/until the enemy pounded its
> way through it anyway).
>
> > In Star Trek there have been 'interdimensional' transporters. They
> > could go through shields and transport over a distance of light
> > years. There was no defence againat them. Only problem was that it
> > was dangerous to ones health.
>
> To transport through, or to operate?

Well, neither, in Gary Seven's case.
>
> If only the former, that's hardly an overwhelming military drawback.
> (Heck, even the latter might not be, if your situation is desperate
> enough or the gain is big enough.)
>
> > And also they had the left over tech of the Iconians who could
> > create gateways over vast distances, without a receiver at the
> > end.
>
> Wasn't all the Iconian gateway tech that they discovered destroyed
> by the end of the only episode it showed up in?
>
> -- wds

--
As Adam West as Bruce Wayne as Batman said in "Smack in the Middle"
the second half of the 1966 BATMAN series pilot when Jill St. John
as Molly as Robin as Molly fell into the Batmobile's atomic pile:
"What a terrible way to go-go"

[Wouter Valentijn]

Anim8rFSK wrote:
> In article <hoo8hr$rio$***@panix1.panix.com>,
> ***@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>
>> In article <4baf9e6e$0$22918$***@news.xs4all.nl>,
>> "Wouter Valentijn" <***@valentijn.nu> said:
>>

<snip>

>>
>>> In Star Trek there have been 'interdimensional' transporters. They
>>> could go through shields and transport over a distance of light
>>> years. There was no defence againat them. Only problem was that it
>>> was dangerous to ones health.
>>
>> To transport through, or to operate?
>
> Well, neither, in Gary Seven's case.

True.

--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

http://www.nksf.scifics.com/startrek.html

Buffy: This is the Initiative Xander. Military guys and scientists do not
make out with each other.
Xander: Well maybe that's what's wrong with the world. Ever think about
that?

'Buffy the Vampire Slayer 4x14: Goodbye Iowa'

liam=mail

[DouhetSukd]

On Mar 27, 1:41 pm, Tim Bruening <***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> How the heck do you defend territories when the
> enemy can show up anywhere at any second?  No area is safe from
> invasion!

You can't. Crete, 41. Berlin, 44.