Balefire and Threads in the Pattern

[Bill]

I've read all the books and I'm currently listening to them in order to
prepare fore the release of book 11, Knife of Dreams. I'm currently
on Fires of Heaven and Moiraine is explaining to Rand about Balefire
and its effects.

I was thinking that if Rand drew as much power as he could through the
Choedan Kal and hit Lanfear with it what would happen. I would think
that with that much power he could erase her thread back so far she
wouldn't have participated in the research that created the bore, and
if that didn't happened then the bore wouldn't have happened. The
dark one would have been released, the war of power wouldn't have
happened and the taint wouldn't be on Saidin, the land wouldn't
have been broken men would have been hunted down and stilled, etc...

What do you think?

[Dave Holman]

Post by Bill
I was thinking that if Rand drew as much power as he could through the
Choedan Kal and hit Lanfear with it what would happen. I would think
that with that much power he could erase her thread back so far she
wouldn't have participated in the research that created the bore, and
if that didn't happened then the bore wouldn't have happened.

Not so much. The strongest balefire that's been mentioned was able to
burn a city back a few days. Rand's strongest balefire attack was able
to burn Rhavin back something on the order of thirty minutes to an
hour. Even using the Choedan Kal, it's unlikely you could burn
something back for more than a few weeks, months at the outer end. All
of that notwithstanding, wiping out a city here and there was enough to
nearly destroy the Pattern. Burning someone like Lanfear back 3,000
years would instantly destroy it entirely.

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by Dave Holman

Post by Bill
I was thinking that if Rand drew as much power as he could through the
Choedan Kal and hit Lanfear with it what would happen. I would think
that with that much power he could erase her thread back so far she
wouldn't have participated in the research that created the bore, and
if that didn't happened then the bore wouldn't have happened.

Not so much. The strongest balefire that's been mentioned was able to
burn a city back a few days. Rand's strongest balefire attack was able
to burn Rhavin back something on the order of thirty minutes to an
hour. Even using the Choedan Kal, it's unlikely you could burn
something back for more than a few weeks, months at the outer end. All
of that notwithstanding, wiping out a city here and there was enough to
nearly destroy the Pattern. Burning someone like Lanfear back 3,000
years would instantly destroy it entirely.

And why not? If Jordan's adhering to the Hindu concept of the Wheel of
Time, there's gonna be a total cosmic dissolution before the cycle of
creation can begin anew. Rand already has three incarnations: himself,
Lews Therin and "one other": maybe the "one other" is the c(C?)reator,
Lews Therin was the preserver (he put the Seals on the Dark One's
prison) and Rand... well, he's Shiva.

Not that I think Jordan IS adhering to that notion. Nicola's phophecy
of "the great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle"
speaks against total annihilation.

But I've always thought that Balefiring Lanfear was a good Looney
Theory. Herid Fel says that we have to reach a place where there was
never a Bore in the Pattern for the Age of Legends to be repeated, and
Jordan provides a technology (Balefire) that undoes history. Further,
Jordan even provides a target for the Balefire, by making Lanfear (at
least partially) responsible for the Bore. And of course, when you
have the heroe insist that he'll never again harm a woman, even if it's
Lanfear herself... So you put together the strongest possible Circle,
you include the Choeden Kal and whatever other sa'angeals you can find,
and you focus the Balefire on a single individual and there ya have it.
No more Bore. The Last Battle is over. The rest of the world doesn't
even realize it.

-- Rajiv

[carl wynn]

Post by Rajiv Mote
And why not? If Jordan's adhering to the Hindu concept of the Wheel of
Time, there's gonna be a total cosmic dissolution before the cycle of
creation can begin anew. Rand already has three incarnations: himself,
Lews Therin and "one other": maybe the "one other" is the c(C?)reator,
Lews Therin was the preserver (he put the Seals on the Dark One's
prison) and Rand... well, he's Shiva.
Not that I think Jordan IS adhering to that notion. Nicola's phophecy
of "the great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle"
speaks against total annihilation.
But I've always thought that Balefiring Lanfear was a good Looney
Theory. Herid Fel says that we have to reach a place where there was
never a Bore in the Pattern for the Age of Legends to be repeated, and
Jordan provides a technology (Balefire) that undoes history. Further,
Jordan even provides a target for the Balefire, by making Lanfear (at
least partially) responsible for the Bore. And of course, when you
have the heroe insist that he'll never again harm a woman, even if it's
Lanfear herself... So you put together the strongest possible Circle,
you include the Choeden Kal and whatever other sa'angeals you can find,
and you focus the Balefire on a single individual and there ya have it.
No more Bore. The Last Battle is over. The rest of the world doesn't
even realize it.
-- Rajiv

So, a circle of 35 men and 37 women, the female and male Choedan Kal
access keys, callandor, and that bone rod from the tower? Though it
would probably help if you could give every person an angreal, or at
least as many angreal as you could find. That would do a lot of
damage. Of course we don't currently have a functional female access
key. Think elayne will do one worthwhile thing before the series ends?
*cough tanchico cough*

[David Chapman]

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by Dave Holman
Burning someone like Lanfear back 3,000
years would instantly destroy it entirely.

And why not?

Because, y'know, destroying the Pattern is the Dark One's whole aim?

[Bill]

I don't think Lanfear's Thread would be 3000 years long. It might
be 3000 years old, but she didn't existing in time and space during the
majority of that time. She was sealed behind the bore out of time and
space, unaware of anything that went on.

I would think that with the power that the Choedan Kal gives the user
access to you could destroy her thread back a very long time. Lanfear
says on more the one occasion that with a man and a women working
together they could challenge the creator himself. Which would imply
to me, that using both Choedan Kal access keys together is equal to the
power of God. So if that is true then you could theoretically use
Balefire to get rid of the bore. We all agree that Balefire is a very
nasty thing. I could start to comprehend the aftermath of what
happened. I mean everyone in Randland knowing there was a breaking, a
war of power, a Trollic war, etc. but then there being no evidence for
it. It kind of gives me the willies.

Post by Dave Holman

Post by Bill
I was thinking that if Rand drew as much power as he could through the
Choedan Kal and hit Lanfear with it what would happen. I would think
that with that much power he could erase her thread back so far she
wouldn't have participated in the research that created the bore, and
if that didn't happened then the bore wouldn't have happened.

Not so much. The strongest balefire that's been mentioned was able to
burn a city back a few days. Rand's strongest balefire attack was able
to burn Rhavin back something on the order of thirty minutes to an
hour. Even using the Choedan Kal, it's unlikely you could burn
something back for more than a few weeks, months at the outer end. All
of that notwithstanding, wiping out a city here and there was enough to
nearly destroy the Pattern. Burning someone like Lanfear back 3,000
years would instantly destroy it entirely.
--
Dave Holman

[Ranger Fan]

Post by Bill

Post by Dave Holman

Post by Bill
I was thinking that if Rand drew as much power as he could through the
Choedan Kal and hit Lanfear with it what would happen. I would think
that with that much power he could erase her thread back so far she
wouldn't have participated in the research that created the bore, and
if that didn't happened then the bore wouldn't have happened.

Not so much. The strongest balefire that's been mentioned was able to
burn a city back a few days. Rand's strongest balefire attack was able
to burn Rhavin back something on the order of thirty minutes to an
hour. Even using the Choedan Kal, it's unlikely you could burn
something back for more than a few weeks, months at the outer end. All
of that notwithstanding, wiping out a city here and there was enough to
nearly destroy the Pattern. Burning someone like Lanfear back 3,000
years would instantly destroy it entirely.
--
Dave Holman

I don't think Lanfear's Thread would be 3000 years long. It might
be 3000 years old, but she didn't existing in time and space during the
majority of that time. She was sealed behind the bore out of time and
space, unaware of anything that went on.
I would think that with the power that the Choedan Kal gives the user
access to you could destroy her thread back a very long time. Lanfear
says on more the one occasion that with a man and a women working
together they could challenge the creator himself. Which would imply
to me, that using both Choedan Kal access keys together is equal to the
power of God. So if that is true then you could theoretically use
Balefire to get rid of the bore. We all agree that Balefire is a very
nasty thing. I could start to comprehend the aftermath of what
happened. I mean everyone in Randland knowing there was a breaking, a
war of power, a Trollic war, etc. but then there being no evidence for
it. It kind of gives me the willies.

Really, it's worse than that. If someone to have balefire'd Lanfear
pre-bore, and there's no breaking - how many people were killed in the
Breaking? Those people would have continued to reproduce, and it's
very likely that some of those offspring would have married someone
that in "reality" married someone else, throwing off entire
geneologies, re-writing untold millions of family histories - heck,
most of the inhabitants of Randland might never have been born.




=======================================================
<Insert Pithy Saying Here - it's apparently required on Usenet>

[Michael Reagor]

Post by Ranger Fan

Post by Bill

Post by Dave Holman

Post by Bill
I was thinking that if Rand drew as much power as he could through
the Choedan Kal and hit Lanfear with it what would happen. I would
think that with that much power he could erase her thread back so
far she wouldn't have participated in the research that created the
bore, and if that didn't happened then the bore wouldn't have
happened.

Not so much. The strongest balefire that's been mentioned was able
to burn a city back a few days. Rand's strongest balefire attack was
able to burn Rhavin back something on the order of thirty minutes to
an hour. Even using the Choedan Kal, it's unlikely you could burn
something back for more than a few weeks, months at the outer end.
All of that notwithstanding, wiping out a city here and there was
enough to nearly destroy the Pattern. Burning someone like Lanfear
back 3,000 years would instantly destroy it entirely.
--
Dave Holman

I don't think Lanfear's Thread would be 3000 years long. It might
be 3000 years old, but she didn't existing in time and space during
the majority of that time. She was sealed behind the bore out of time
and space, unaware of anything that went on.
I would think that with the power that the Choedan Kal gives the user
access to you could destroy her thread back a very long time. Lanfear
says on more the one occasion that with a man and a women working
together they could challenge the creator himself. Which would imply
to me, that using both Choedan Kal access keys together is equal to
the power of God. So if that is true then you could theoretically use
Balefire to get rid of the bore. We all agree that Balefire is a very
nasty thing. I could start to comprehend the aftermath of what
happened. I mean everyone in Randland knowing there was a breaking, a
war of power, a Trollic war, etc. but then there being no evidence for
it. It kind of gives me the willies.

Really, it's worse than that. If someone to have balefire'd Lanfear
pre-bore, and there's no breaking - how many people were killed in the
Breaking? Those people would have continued to reproduce, and it's
very likely that some of those offspring would have married someone
that in "reality" married someone else, throwing off entire
geneologies, re-writing untold millions of family histories - heck,
most of the inhabitants of Randland might never have been born.

And it gets even worse than that. No breaking means no Aiel wandering.
That means no water sharing. No water sharing, no tree. No tree, no
Laman's Sin. No Laman's Sin, no Aiel war. No Aiel war, no Rand born on
the slopes of Dragonmount (which itself wouldn't exist). No Rand, no
Balefire to remove Lanfear in the first place.

Or alternately, If the Bore hadn't been drilled there would never have
been a reason to even make the Choedan Kal.

[Dan Weiner]

Post by Michael Reagor
Or alternately, If the Bore hadn't been drilled there would never have
been a reason to even make the Choedan Kal.

Are we ever going to encounter sa'angreal that don't have fatal flaws?
Jeez, the AoL people sucked at making *angreal.

[Brian Roux]

[...]

Post by Ranger Fan
Really, it's worse than that. If someone to have balefire'd Lanfear
pre-bore, and there's no breaking - how many people were killed in the
Breaking? Those people would have continued to reproduce, and it's
very likely that some of those offspring would have married someone

No breaking -> no war, no war -> no balefire, no balefire...

~ Brian

[Mike Timbers]

Post by Brian Roux
[...]

Post by Ranger Fan
Really, it's worse than that. If someone to have balefire'd Lanfear
pre-bore, and there's no breaking - how many people were killed in the
Breaking? Those people would have continued to reproduce, and it's
very likely that some of those offspring would have married someone

No breaking -> no war, no war -> no balefire, no balefire...

Breaking came after the war so:

no war -> no balefire, no balefire...

[Wil Hunt]

Post by Brian Roux

Post by Brian Roux
[...]

Post by Ranger Fan
Really, it's worse than that. If someone to have balefire'd Lanfear
pre-bore, and there's no breaking - how many people were killed in the
Breaking? Those people would have continued to reproduce, and it's
very likely that some of those offspring would have married someone

No breaking -> no war, no war -> no balefire, no balefire...

no war -> no balefire, no balefire...

I think he meant boring instead of breaking, but I could be mistaken.

Wil

[Mike Timbers]

Post by Wil Hunt

Post by Brian Roux

Post by Brian Roux
[...]

Post by Ranger Fan
Really, it's worse than that. If someone to have balefire'd Lanfear
pre-bore, and there's no breaking - how many people were killed in the
Breaking? Those people would have continued to reproduce, and it's
very likely that some of those offspring would have married someone

No breaking -> no war, no war -> no balefire, no balefire...

no war -> no balefire, no balefire...

I think he meant boring instead of breaking, but I could be mistaken.

No boring -> no WOT or to simplify:

boring -> WOT

[Dan Weiner]

Post by Mike Timbers
boring -> WOT

To be more complete:

boring -> WOT -> boring

The wheel of time turns...

[Jasper Janssen]

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:30:01 GMT, Dan Weiner

Post by Dan Weiner
boring -> WOT -> boring
The wheel of time turns...

Like sand through the hourglass...


Jasper

[Cairone Belaero]

<snip>

Post by Mike Timbers
boring -> WOT

Actually, no: the equivalent to

no boring -> no WOT

is

WOT -> boring.

Gotta watch the contrapositives. Not everything that is boring or has
a bore is the Wheel of Time, but if you have the Wheel of Time, then
you are guaranteed those.

[Colin Zealley]

One is led to wonder why so many people who say they find these works boring
continue to post in this forum ...

If the books bore you, why bother to waste your time discussing them?

Post by Cairone Belaero
<snip>

Post by Mike Timbers
boring -> WOT

Actually, no: the equivalent to
no boring -> no WOT
is
WOT -> boring.
Gotta watch the contrapositives. Not everything that is boring or has
a bore is the Wheel of Time, but if you have the Wheel of Time, then
you are guaranteed those.

[jason.powell]

<shrug>
I find them to be a quite enjoyable read.

Post by Colin Zealley
One is led to wonder why so many people who say they find these works
boring continue to post in this forum ...
If the books bore you, why bother to waste your time discussing them?

Post by Cairone Belaero
<snip>

Post by Mike Timbers
boring -> WOT

Actually, no: the equivalent to
no boring -> no WOT
is
WOT -> boring.
Gotta watch the contrapositives. Not everything that is boring or has
a bore is the Wheel of Time, but if you have the Wheel of Time, then
you are guaranteed those.

[steveo]

Post by Colin Zealley
One is led to wonder why so many people who say they find these works
boring continue to post in this forum ...
If the books bore you, why bother to waste your time discussing them?

People like to bitch. Look at anything that has a solid fanbase and you
will see that those who are "hardcore" into the thing at hand are usually
the most vociferous complainers (e.g. Star Wars, Star Trek, Lost, BSG,
football, politics, etc.).

Complaints mean that there is passion. Apathy generates few comments--why
bother?

steveo

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:00:38 +0100, "Colin Zealley"

Post by Colin Zealley
One is led to wonder why so many people who say they find these works boring
continue to post in this forum ...
If the books bore you, why bother to waste your time discussing them?

What on earth makies you think posting here equals discussing WoT?

And, you know, the vast majority of the old timers has pretty much left
anyway. Even the ones that still drop in, and I include myself here, only
do so occasionally and briefly.


Jasper

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Michael Reagor

Post by Ranger Fan

Post by Bill

Post by Dave Holman

Post by Bill
I was thinking that if Rand drew as much power as he could through
the Choedan Kal and hit Lanfear with it what would happen. I would
think that with that much power he could erase her thread back so
far she wouldn't have participated in the research that created the
bore, and if that didn't happened then the bore wouldn't have
happened.

Not so much. The strongest balefire that's been mentioned was able
to burn a city back a few days. Rand's strongest balefire attack was
able to burn Rhavin back something on the order of thirty minutes to
an hour. Even using the Choedan Kal, it's unlikely you could burn
something back for more than a few weeks, months at the outer end.
All of that notwithstanding, wiping out a city here and there was
enough to nearly destroy the Pattern. Burning someone like Lanfear
back 3,000 years would instantly destroy it entirely.
--
Dave Holman

I don't think Lanfear's Thread would be 3000 years long. It might
be 3000 years old, but she didn't existing in time and space during
the majority of that time. She was sealed behind the bore out of time
and space, unaware of anything that went on.
I would think that with the power that the Choedan Kal gives the user
access to you could destroy her thread back a very long time. Lanfear
says on more the one occasion that with a man and a women working
together they could challenge the creator himself. Which would imply
to me, that using both Choedan Kal access keys together is equal to
the power of God. So if that is true then you could theoretically use
Balefire to get rid of the bore. We all agree that Balefire is a very
nasty thing. I could start to comprehend the aftermath of what
happened. I mean everyone in Randland knowing there was a breaking, a
war of power, a Trollic war, etc. but then there being no evidence for
it. It kind of gives me the willies.

Really, it's worse than that. If someone to have balefire'd Lanfear
pre-bore, and there's no breaking - how many people were killed in the
Breaking? Those people would have continued to reproduce, and it's
very likely that some of those offspring would have married someone
that in "reality" married someone else, throwing off entire
geneologies, re-writing untold millions of family histories - heck,
most of the inhabitants of Randland might never have been born.

And it gets even worse than that. No breaking means no Aiel wandering.
That means no water sharing. No water sharing, no tree. No tree, no
Laman's Sin. No Laman's Sin, no Aiel war. No Aiel war, no Rand born on
the slopes of Dragonmount (which itself wouldn't exist). No Rand, no
Balefire to remove Lanfear in the first place.
Or alternately, If the Bore hadn't been drilled there would never have
been a reason to even make the Choedan Kal.

Undoing the Bore would undo the whole War of the Shadow and subsequent
events, making the Dragon's Rebirth unnecessary.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Bill
I've read all the books and I'm currently listening to them in order to
prepare fore the release of book 11, Knife of Dreams. I'm currently
on Fires of Heaven and Moiraine is explaining to Rand about Balefire
and its effects.
I was thinking that if Rand drew as much power as he could through the
Choedan Kal and hit Lanfear with it what would happen. I would think
that with that much power he could erase her thread back so far she
wouldn't have participated in the research that created the bore, and
if that didn't happened then the bore wouldn't have happened. The
dark one would have been released, the war of power wouldn't have
happened and the taint wouldn't be on Saidin, the land wouldn't
have been broken men would have been hunted down and stilled, etc...
What do you think?

That would destroy the Pattern.