Commentary on "Who Killed Asmodean?"

[Althor Enchantor]

I have a few points that occurred to me as I reread this section of
the FAQ that seem to add to the case of Lanfear-dunnit, detract from
the case of Slayer-dunnit, and imply that, if neither-dunnit, the
murder was a crime of opportunity.

First, why Asmo's death was a crime of opportunity:
Asmodean was wandering through the hallways of Castle Caemlyn, looking
for wine, when he opened some random small door, possibly the door to
a pantry, and BAMF! There's his killer. Now, the question is, why
would his killer be hiding in a pantry or roaming through the hallways
for the express purpose of killing Asmodean? Since, as far as we know,
scrying (or any sort of similar form of magically spying on someone
from a distance) does not exist in the WoT, there was no way that the
killer could have known Asmodean's location more specifically than
"People in Cairhien say that Rand is somewhere in Caemlyn, and his
spoony bard may or may not have gone with him, but no one really knows
for sure about the bard because no one really cares about him."
Furthermore, Caemlyn Castle is huge; if someone of little importance
to the general public is wandering through its labyrinthine
passageways, do you think a killer is going to be able to find out
where he is by asking the servants? No. And if the killer can't know
where Asmo is more specifically than "he wandered off looking for
wine", do you think the killer is going to stand a snowball's chance
in hell of finding him? No. And if the Killer has a slim to none
chance to find Asmo in the hallways, do you think that an assassin is
going to bother doing so, instead of, say, waiting in Asmo's bedroom
to ambush him? No.

However, if Lanfear killed Asmo, there's a cheap cop-out for "How did
the killer know where Asmodean was?": Lanfear used one of her three
wishes from the Finn to do it, ie "I want to kill that little weasel
Asmodean for what he's done to me!" As far as the whole, "She wasn't
granted wishes; the books say she was HELD, and you don't grant wishes
to prisoners," argument, one might ask the question of WHY she was
held. Going back to Mat's experience with the Foxes, it seems to imply
that the only reason Mat was allowed to leave was because that was one
of his wishes. Lanfear (and Moiraine for that matter) most likely knew
little, if anything, about the Finn beyond "ooh! the Fox Finn grant
you wishes!", and, as they are not Ta'veren, would not have been lucky
enough to accidentally ask to leave. Thus, the most likely event that
occurred is that both Moiraine and Lanfear were each granted three
wishes, one of which (in Lanfear's case) was to kill Asmodean. After
they got their wishes, they were imprisoned indefinitely, and it is
possible that Lanfear ended up getting herself killed and/or stilled
in an escape attempt.

Finally, assuming the FAQ's assumption about Slayer not being sent
after channeling victims to be true, one might ask, "How did any of
the Forsaken know that Asmodean was shielded?" According to the story
that Lanfear told the other Forsaken, Asmodean went over to Rand's
side willingly. This is further cemented by Lanfear's words to Rand
that the other Foresaken would tear Asmo apart for his weakness "even
if he managed to convince them he was a prisoner". If he willingly
defected, why would Asmo be shielded? Even if Rand shielded him
initially, which would be purely conjecture from the POV of the
Forsaken, why would he still be kept so even after several months of
loyalty and despite the incredible utility of having another
Forsaken-class channeler on your side? If Rand was capable of
unshielding Asmo during the Battle of Carhien or the raid on Caemlyn,
don't you think he would have? Thus, it is my opinion that Slayer
can't be Asmodean's killer because any potential Forsaken employer
would believe that it would be impossible for Slayer to do so. Then
again, there was one Forsaken who knew that Asmo was shielded:
Lanfear. After that, it's really not that great of a stretch to see
Lanfear wishing for a free 'phone call' to tell Slayer to find
Asmodean and get stabby on his ass.

Any thoughts? Counter-arguments? Supporting evidence?

[Pradeep Sekar]

Post by Althor Enchantor
After that, it's really not that great of a stretch to see
Lanfear wishing for a free 'phone call' to tell Slayer to find
Asmodean and get stabby on his ass.
Any thoughts? Counter-arguments? Supporting evidence?

Hmmm... Perrin has seen Slayer enter the Finn's tower in TAR. While I
have not given much thought to other parts of this theory, we cannot
rule out the possibility that he could have met Lanfear there...

[Kyle Storm]

Post by Pradeep Sekar

Post by Althor Enchantor
After that, it's really not that great of a stretch to see
Lanfear wishing for a free 'phone call' to tell Slayer to find
Asmodean and get stabby on his ass.
Any thoughts? Counter-arguments? Supporting evidence?

Hmmm... Perrin has seen Slayer enter the Finn's tower in TAR. While I
have not given much thought to other parts of this theory, we cannot
rule out the possibility that he could have met Lanfear there...

Perrin didn't see Slayer enter the *Finn tower. He saw Slayer
approaching the tower and then he was gone. Given the way
Shadow-related issues are handled among the *Finn, I don't think
Slayer would enter just to get away from Perrin. Appearing to enter
in an effort to lure Perrin inside, that I can see.

Storm

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Pradeep Sekar

Post by Althor Enchantor
After that, it's really not that great of a stretch to see
Lanfear wishing for a free 'phone call' to tell Slayer to find
Asmodean and get stabby on his ass.
Any thoughts? Counter-arguments? Supporting evidence?

Hmmm... Perrin has seen Slayer enter the Finn's tower in TAR. While I
have not given much thought to other parts of this theory, we cannot
rule out the possibility that he could have met Lanfear there...

What wishes did Mr. Slayer make while in Finn land?

[Sir Thursday]

Post by Althor Enchantor
However, if Lanfear killed Asmo, there's a cheap cop-out for "How did
the killer know where Asmodean was?": Lanfear used one of her three
wishes from the Finn to do it, ie "I want to kill that little weasel
Asmodean for what he's done to me!" As far as the whole, "She wasn't
granted wishes; the books say she was HELD, and you don't grant wishes
to prisoners," argument, one might ask the question of WHY she was
held. Going back to Mat's experience with the Foxes, it seems to imply
that the only reason Mat was allowed to leave was because that was one
of his wishes. Lanfear (and Moiraine for that matter) most likely knew
little, if anything, about the Finn beyond "ooh! the Fox Finn grant
you wishes!", and, as they are not Ta'veren, would not have been lucky
enough to accidentally ask to leave. Thus, the most likely event that
occurred is that both Moiraine and Lanfear were each granted three
wishes, one of which (in Lanfear's case) was to kill Asmodean. After
they got their wishes, they were imprisoned indefinitely, and it is
possible that Lanfear ended up getting herself killed and/or stilled
in an escape attempt.
Any thoughts? Counter-arguments? Supporting evidence?

I must applaud your logic... good thinking.

Lanfear was more annoyed at Rand than at Asmodean. If she had three
wishes, surely she would have asked to kill Rand? (especially
considering her state of mind at the Caerhien docks)

Also, AFAIK Asmodean did nothing to Lanfear- the abuse was all one
way. I can't see any reason for her to want to kill him. (at least, to
the exclusion of others)

Your argument begs the question, what were her other three wishes?

Cheers,

Sir Thursday

[Mark Loy]

In article <***@posting.google.com>,
***@dovers.plus.com (Sir Thursday) wrote:

<snip argument and counter-argument about A-smo's pining for the fjords>

Post by Sir Thursday

Post by Althor Enchantor
Any thoughts? Counter-arguments? Supporting evidence?

I must applaud your logic... good thinking.
Your argument begs the question, what were her other three wishes?

One: I'd like to come back to life shorter, less breath-takingly
beautiful, with a lot less strength in the One Power but with a nice rack.

Two: I'd like to go from an integral part of the story, the essential
"behind-the-scenes" manipulator and facilitator of evil machinations and
whathaveyou, to a two-bit part-time lackey wannabe dime-a-dozen One Power
weilding bitch but with a nice rack.

And three: World peace. Oh and...did I forget to mention about the rack?







ML

[Loïc Joly]

Post by Sir Thursday
Lanfear was more annoyed at Rand than at Asmodean. If she had three
wishes, surely she would have asked to kill Rand? (especially
considering her state of mind at the Caerhien docks)

Or even more probably Aviendha...

[Lara]

***@aol.com (Althor Enchantor) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...

[SACIAGAP]

You know, with the number of posts we get on this subject, it's a
wonder that no one's come up with a WoT-themed version of the game
Clue/Cluedo.

"It was Graendal in the pantry with the balefire."
"No, it was Moghedian in the scullery with the weave of fire."
"No, you're all wrong, it was Semirhage in the kicthen with her
Ingenious Torture Ter'Angreal(tm)."
"I think it's obvious that it was Padan Fain in the closet with the
Shadar Mandarb."

[Loïc Joly]

Post by Lara
[SACIAGAP]
You know, with the number of posts we get on this subject, it's a
wonder that no one's come up with a WoT-themed version of the game
Clue/Cluedo.
"It was Graendal in the pantry with the balefire."
"No, it was Moghedian in the scullery with the weave of fire."
"No, you're all wrong, it was Semirhage in the kicthen with her
Ingenious Torture Ter'Angreal(tm)."
"I think it's obvious that it was Padan Fain in the closet with the
Shadar Mandarb."

Have you seen the movie made out of this game ? I found it quite enjoyable.

[Mike De Palatis]

Post by Lara
[SACIAGAP]
You know, with the number of posts we get on this subject, it's a
wonder that no one's come up with a WoT-themed version of the game
Clue/Cluedo.
"It was Graendal in the pantry with the balefire."
"No, it was Moghedian in the scullery with the weave of fire."
"No, you're all wrong, it was Semirhage in the kicthen with her
Ingenious Torture Ter'Angreal(tm)."
"I think it's obvious that it was Padan Fain in the closet with the
Shadar Mandarb."

...the spit then splashed off the wrist, pauses - in midair, mind you
- makes a left turn and lands on Asmodean's left thigh. That,
gentelmen, is one magic loogie.

[John Anderson]

Post by Mike De Palatis

Post by Lara
[SACIAGAP]
You know, with the number of posts we get on this subject, it's a
wonder that no one's come up with a WoT-themed version of the game
Clue/Cluedo.
"It was Graendal in the pantry with the balefire."
"No, it was Moghedian in the scullery with the weave of fire."
"No, you're all wrong, it was Semirhage in the kicthen with her
Ingenious Torture Ter'Angreal(tm)."
"I think it's obvious that it was Padan Fain in the closet with the
Shadar Mandarb."

...the spit then splashed off the wrist, pauses - in midair, mind you
- makes a left turn and lands on Asmodean's left thigh. That,
gentelmen, is one magic loogie.

<coughs>

Um, that wasn't spit.

[Tensai]

Post by John Anderson

Post by Mike De Palatis

Post by Lara
[SACIAGAP]
You know, with the number of posts we get on this subject, it's a
wonder that no one's come up with a WoT-themed version of the game
Clue/Cluedo.
"It was Graendal in the pantry with the balefire."
"No, it was Moghedian in the scullery with the weave of fire."
"No, you're all wrong, it was Semirhage in the kicthen with her
Ingenious Torture Ter'Angreal(tm)."
"I think it's obvious that it was Padan Fain in the closet with the
Shadar Mandarb."

...the spit then splashed off the wrist, pauses - in midair, mind you
- makes a left turn and lands on Asmodean's left thigh. That,
gentelmen, is one magic loogie.

<coughs>
Um, that wasn't spit.

I think it was Taim, the more I re-read, the more certain I become of
this, just finished FoH and I find the timing of Taims
arrival/Asmodeans demise to be too good for coincedence. Then further
along as we begin to get suspicious of Taims allegiences we get closer
to a motivation.

Taim in my opinion, is likely to be a darkfriend and possibly high
level Dreadlord material, maybe he was given orders to approach Rand
once word of the amnesty got out and remove Asmodean when the
opportunity arose(possibly via Graendal? hence her knowledge of
Asmodeans death) or perhaps he was just in the right place in Caemlyn,
and took the opportune moment of running into Asmodean to get rid of
him, he has forsaken level strength( and possibly an Angreal after
Dumai's Wells) then reported back to Graendal the results.

Andrew Brandon.

[Zachary]

Post by Tensai
I think it was Taim, the more I re-read, the more certain I become of
this, just finished FoH and I find the timing of Taims
arrival/Asmodeans demise to be too good for coincedence. Then further
along as we begin to get suspicious of Taims allegiences we get closer
to a motivation.
Taim in my opinion, is likely to be a darkfriend and possibly high
level Dreadlord material, maybe he was given orders to approach Rand
once word of the amnesty got out and remove Asmodean when the
opportunity arose(possibly via Graendal? hence her knowledge of
Asmodeans death) or perhaps he was just in the right place in Caemlyn,
and took the opportune moment of running into Asmodean to get rid of
him, he has forsaken level strength( and possibly an Angreal after
Dumai's Wells) then reported back to Graendal the results.
Andrew Brandon.

You have your timing wrong here. Asmodean was dead before the amnesty
was announced, hell, any argument that bases Taim coming to Caemlyn
because of the amnesty logically makes it impossible for Taim to have
killed Asmodean, the timing just doesn't work.

The whole Taim thing just makes no sense to me anyway, so basically
we have Taim wandering around the Caemlyn Palace after one of the
Forsaken has been blasted to Shayol Ghul and back with balefire and
then Asmodean stumbles upon him and then Taim sits there and does the
test to see if he can channel saidin whilst Asmodean sits patiently and
looks about for wine, and then lo and behold, he can channel so Taim
then kills him, obviously using reversed webs so that Rand doesn't sense
him holding or using saidin.

However, to play the Dark One's advocate and because like all good
Darkfriends I like to increase chaos I can theorise a reason for Taim
being in Caemlyn or Andor so that he would have the opportunity to kill
Asmodean but you have to then figure out how Taim knew it was a renegade
male Forsaken since men don't sense the ability to channel in the same
way as women, another large flaw in the Taim did it argument I believe.
Oh, and please, PLEASE, keep in mind, this is pure supposition.

Firstly, let us assume that the Minion Taim theory is correct and that
Taim is Ishy's creature. After Ishy got whacked Taim was left without a
Forsaken to guide him. Taim is then snapped up by Rahvin ala Carridin
and Sammael, Taim is then sent on some mission by Rahvin to retrieve
one of the seals, however, by the time Taim got back Rahvin was whacked
or Caemlyn was under attack. It's not perfect but it doesn't have the same
timeframe problems as most of the other Taim theories out there.

- Zachary

[Tensai]

Post by Zachary

Post by Tensai
I think it was Taim, the more I re-read, the more certain I become of
this, just finished FoH and I find the timing of Taims
arrival/Asmodeans demise to be too good for coincedence. Then further
along as we begin to get suspicious of Taims allegiences we get closer
to a motivation.
Taim in my opinion, is likely to be a darkfriend and possibly high
level Dreadlord material, maybe he was given orders to approach Rand
once word of the amnesty got out and remove Asmodean when the
opportunity arose(possibly via Graendal? hence her knowledge of
Asmodeans death) or perhaps he was just in the right place in Caemlyn,
and took the opportune moment of running into Asmodean to get rid of
him, he has forsaken level strength( and possibly an Angreal after
Dumai's Wells) then reported back to Graendal the results.
Andrew Brandon.

You have your timing wrong here. Asmodean was dead before the amnesty
was announced, hell, any argument that bases Taim coming to Caemlyn
because of the amnesty logically makes it impossible for Taim to have
killed Asmodean, the timing just doesn't work.
The whole Taim thing just makes no sense to me anyway, so basically
we have Taim wandering around the Caemlyn Palace after one of the
Forsaken has been blasted to Shayol Ghul and back with balefire and
then Asmodean stumbles upon him and then Taim sits there and does the
test to see if he can channel saidin whilst Asmodean sits patiently and
looks about for wine, and then lo and behold, he can channel so Taim
then kills him, obviously using reversed webs so that Rand doesn't sense
him holding or using saidin.
However, to play the Dark One's advocate and because like all good
Darkfriends I like to increase chaos I can theorise a reason for Taim
being in Caemlyn or Andor so that he would have the opportunity to kill
Asmodean but you have to then figure out how Taim knew it was a renegade
male Forsaken since men don't sense the ability to channel in the same
way as women, another large flaw in the Taim did it argument I believe.
Oh, and please, PLEASE, keep in mind, this is pure supposition.
Firstly, let us assume that the Minion Taim theory is correct and that
Taim is Ishy's creature. After Ishy got whacked Taim was left without a
Forsaken to guide him. Taim is then snapped up by Rahvin ala Carridin
and Sammael, Taim is then sent on some mission by Rahvin to retrieve
one of the seals, however, by the time Taim got back Rahvin was whacked
or Caemlyn was under attack. It's not perfect but it doesn't have the same
timeframe problems as most of the other Taim theories out there.
- Zachary

I believe Rand mentions the amnesty to Bashere about the same time
Asmodean dies - which is also the time we hear of Taims presence in
Andor - convenient?
However that makes it obvious that Taim would have no knowledge of the
amnesty until later (sorry for rambling on nonsensically). Though to
move on lets look at opportunity - Taim is in Andor, if bashere is
chasing him he is probably in Caemlyn - we have absolutely no mention
of anyone else in or close to Andoror Caemlyn at the time who could
have a possible motivation and be capable of disposing of
Asmodean(also from what we now know of Taim he is not going to be out
in the country but close to where the power is)

RJ has reputedly said it should be obvious to us at the time of the
killing who did it and the convienient re-introduction of Taim after
such a long time in the scene directly preceding(concurrent with even)
the death is that just coincidental?

I don't believe for a moment he was idly wandering round the palace I
suspect he was driven there by Bashere or like your suggestion he was
in the service of Rahvin that would explain why he came to the Palace
in a more logical manner. As for the whole testing Asmo to see if he
can channel, why?, if he is a Darkfriend as i suspect then he would
know Asmodean,and would know he could channel. Also why assume he
killed him because he could channel? why not out of panic and fear at
being discovered.

Think about it - Taim is off working in the service of Rahvin, he gets
captured and then escapes(possibly with BA help), gets into trouble in
Saldaea so runs back to Rahvin with Bashere hot on his tail; figuring
to get protection there. But finds Rahvin is wormfood and Rand
stalking about the palace. So he tries hiding while he weighs his
options, but in walks Asmodean and boom, the rest is history as they
say.

Do we have anything that refutes this?

The one problem I have is - if Taim used the OP Rand would have felt
it, I suppose if he used a small enough amount Rand might assume it
was Asmodean?

Anyone add anything else?

Andrew Brandon

[Zachary]

Post by Tensai

Post by Zachary

Post by Tensai
I think it was Taim, the more I re-read, the more certain I become of
this, just finished FoH and I find the timing of Taims
arrival/Asmodeans demise to be too good for coincedence. Then further
along as we begin to get suspicious of Taims allegiences we get closer
to a motivation.
Taim in my opinion, is likely to be a darkfriend and possibly high
level Dreadlord material, maybe he was given orders to approach Rand
once word of the amnesty got out and remove Asmodean when the
opportunity arose(possibly via Graendal? hence her knowledge of
Asmodeans death) or perhaps he was just in the right place in Caemlyn,
and took the opportune moment of running into Asmodean to get rid of
him, he has forsaken level strength( and possibly an Angreal after
Dumai's Wells) then reported back to Graendal the results.
Andrew Brandon.

You have your timing wrong here. Asmodean was dead before the amnesty
was announced, hell, any argument that bases Taim coming to Caemlyn
because of the amnesty logically makes it impossible for Taim to have
killed Asmodean, the timing just doesn't work.
The whole Taim thing just makes no sense to me anyway, so basically
we have Taim wandering around the Caemlyn Palace after one of the
Forsaken has been blasted to Shayol Ghul and back with balefire and
then Asmodean stumbles upon him and then Taim sits there and does the
test to see if he can channel saidin whilst Asmodean sits patiently and
looks about for wine, and then lo and behold, he can channel so Taim
then kills him, obviously using reversed webs so that Rand doesn't sense
him holding or using saidin.
However, to play the Dark One's advocate and because like all good
Darkfriends I like to increase chaos I can theorise a reason for Taim
being in Caemlyn or Andor so that he would have the opportunity to kill
Asmodean but you have to then figure out how Taim knew it was a renegade
male Forsaken since men don't sense the ability to channel in the same
way as women, another large flaw in the Taim did it argument I believe.
Oh, and please, PLEASE, keep in mind, this is pure supposition.
Firstly, let us assume that the Minion Taim theory is correct and that
Taim is Ishy's creature. After Ishy got whacked Taim was left without a
Forsaken to guide him. Taim is then snapped up by Rahvin ala Carridin
and Sammael, Taim is then sent on some mission by Rahvin to retrieve
one of the seals, however, by the time Taim got back Rahvin was whacked
or Caemlyn was under attack. It's not perfect but it doesn't have the same
timeframe problems as most of the other Taim theories out there.
- Zachary

I believe Rand mentions the amnesty to Bashere about the same time
Asmodean dies - which is also the time we hear of Taims presence in
Andor - convenient?
However that makes it obvious that Taim would have no knowledge of the
amnesty until later (sorry for rambling on nonsensically). Though to
move on lets look at opportunity - Taim is in Andor, if bashere is
chasing him he is probably in Caemlyn - we have absolutely no mention
of anyone else in or close to Andoror Caemlyn at the time who could
have a possible motivation and be capable of disposing of
Asmodean(also from what we now know of Taim he is not going to be out
in the country but close to where the power is)
RJ has reputedly said it should be obvious to us at the time of the
killing who did it and the convienient re-introduction of Taim after
such a long time in the scene directly preceding(concurrent with even)
the death is that just coincidental?
I don't believe for a moment he was idly wandering round the palace I
suspect he was driven there by Bashere or like your suggestion he was
in the service of Rahvin that would explain why he came to the Palace
in a more logical manner. As for the whole testing Asmo to see if he
can channel, why?, if he is a Darkfriend as i suspect then he would
know Asmodean,and would know he could channel. Also why assume he
killed him because he could channel? why not out of panic and fear at
being discovered.
Think about it - Taim is off working in the service of Rahvin, he gets
captured and then escapes(possibly with BA help), gets into trouble in
Saldaea so runs back to Rahvin with Bashere hot on his tail; figuring
to get protection there. But finds Rahvin is wormfood and Rand
stalking about the palace. So he tries hiding while he weighs his
options, but in walks Asmodean and boom, the rest is history as they
say.
Do we have anything that refutes this?
The one problem I have is - if Taim used the OP Rand would have felt
it, I suppose if he used a small enough amount Rand might assume it
was Asmodean?
Anyone add anything else?
Andrew Brandon

He wouldn't logically know one of the Forsaken, check out all the "If
you really are one of the Chosen..." lines by Darkfriends, the Forsaken
aren't well known by Darkfriends. So there has to be some way for Taim
and Asmodean to know each other for Asmodean's last words to fit.

There's no real indication that the servents or whoever would know who
Taim was, channeling in that manner would only serve to draw attention
to himself, which is counter-productive if he's hiding. So you have
reversed webs, which were introduced in WH so that negates the obvious
part or Taim using small amounts so that Rand thinks Asmodean is
channeling, which assumes that Taim knows that there is another male
channeler in the party.

Taim also doesn't really seem the type who panics easily and if saidin
channeling occured and was felt, it probably would have been mentioned,
as Rand thinks Asmodean just disappeared and as strangely dense as our
heroes are at times, if Rand felt channeling then Asmodean disappeared
I'm sure even he'd piece those two pieces together.

Just to clear things up, the general Taim timeline as I remember it
goes something like this:

- Declares himself DR.
- Creates war in Saldaea.
- Rand fights Ishy at Falme.
- Taim sees the image and is knocked out by a blinding light.
- Taim is captured.
- Freed with help on the way to Tar Valon (I'm not sure WHERE he was
freed though.)
- Bashere sent to kill/whatever Taim.
- Suian orders Taim to be recaptured and gentled on the spot. (The Tower
splits sometime soon after this I believe, so I think the order is put
aside for more important matters or something).
- ?
- Taim turns up in Caemlyn with one of the seals at the start of LoC.
- Things after this.

The general questions that crop up with Taim are "What was he doing
before he declared himself?" and "What was he doing in the period of
time between his escape and turning up at Caemlyn?".

You make a good point in showing that Taim is in Andor pre-Asmod's
death due to Bashere being there though, I had not considered that.


- Zachary

[Tensai]

Post by Zachary

Post by Tensai

Post by Zachary

Post by Tensai
I think it was Taim, the more I re-read, the more certain I become of
this, just finished FoH and I find the timing of Taims
arrival/Asmodeans demise to be too good for coincedence. Then further
along as we begin to get suspicious of Taims allegiences we get closer
to a motivation.
Taim in my opinion, is likely to be a darkfriend and possibly high
level Dreadlord material, maybe he was given orders to approach Rand
once word of the amnesty got out and remove Asmodean when the
opportunity arose(possibly via Graendal? hence her knowledge of
Asmodeans death) or perhaps he was just in the right place in Caemlyn,
and took the opportune moment of running into Asmodean to get rid of
him, he has forsaken level strength( and possibly an Angreal after
Dumai's Wells) then reported back to Graendal the results.
Andrew Brandon.

You have your timing wrong here. Asmodean was dead before the amnesty
was announced, hell, any argument that bases Taim coming to Caemlyn
because of the amnesty logically makes it impossible for Taim to have
killed Asmodean, the timing just doesn't work.
The whole Taim thing just makes no sense to me anyway, so basically
we have Taim wandering around the Caemlyn Palace after one of the
Forsaken has been blasted to Shayol Ghul and back with balefire and
then Asmodean stumbles upon him and then Taim sits there and does the
test to see if he can channel saidin whilst Asmodean sits patiently and
looks about for wine, and then lo and behold, he can channel so Taim
then kills him, obviously using reversed webs so that Rand doesn't sense
him holding or using saidin.
However, to play the Dark One's advocate and because like all good
Darkfriends I like to increase chaos I can theorise a reason for Taim
being in Caemlyn or Andor so that he would have the opportunity to kill
Asmodean but you have to then figure out how Taim knew it was a renegade
male Forsaken since men don't sense the ability to channel in the same
way as women, another large flaw in the Taim did it argument I believe.
Oh, and please, PLEASE, keep in mind, this is pure supposition.
Firstly, let us assume that the Minion Taim theory is correct and that
Taim is Ishy's creature. After Ishy got whacked Taim was left without a
Forsaken to guide him. Taim is then snapped up by Rahvin ala Carridin
and Sammael, Taim is then sent on some mission by Rahvin to retrieve
one of the seals, however, by the time Taim got back Rahvin was whacked
or Caemlyn was under attack. It's not perfect but it doesn't have the same
timeframe problems as most of the other Taim theories out there.
- Zachary

I believe Rand mentions the amnesty to Bashere about the same time
Asmodean dies - which is also the time we hear of Taims presence in
Andor - convenient?
However that makes it obvious that Taim would have no knowledge of the
amnesty until later (sorry for rambling on nonsensically). Though to
move on lets look at opportunity - Taim is in Andor, if bashere is
chasing him he is probably in Caemlyn - we have absolutely no mention
of anyone else in or close to Andoror Caemlyn at the time who could
have a possible motivation and be capable of disposing of
Asmodean(also from what we now know of Taim he is not going to be out
in the country but close to where the power is)
RJ has reputedly said it should be obvious to us at the time of the
killing who did it and the convienient re-introduction of Taim after
such a long time in the scene directly preceding(concurrent with even)
the death is that just coincidental?
I don't believe for a moment he was idly wandering round the palace I
suspect he was driven there by Bashere or like your suggestion he was
in the service of Rahvin that would explain why he came to the Palace
in a more logical manner. As for the whole testing Asmo to see if he
can channel, why?, if he is a Darkfriend as i suspect then he would
know Asmodean,and would know he could channel. Also why assume he
killed him because he could channel? why not out of panic and fear at
being discovered.
Think about it - Taim is off working in the service of Rahvin, he gets
captured and then escapes(possibly with BA help), gets into trouble in
Saldaea so runs back to Rahvin with Bashere hot on his tail; figuring
to get protection there. But finds Rahvin is wormfood and Rand
stalking about the palace. So he tries hiding while he weighs his
options, but in walks Asmodean and boom, the rest is history as they
say.
Do we have anything that refutes this?
The one problem I have is - if Taim used the OP Rand would have felt
it, I suppose if he used a small enough amount Rand might assume it
was Asmodean?
Anyone add anything else?
Andrew Brandon

He wouldn't logically know one of the Forsaken, check out all the "If
you really are one of the Chosen..." lines by Darkfriends, the Forsaken
aren't well known by Darkfriends. So there has to be some way for Taim
and Asmodean to know each other for Asmodean's last words to fit.

Taim would logically have to be more than a random DF given he is
seemingly a gifted channeler and very powerful too, The Shadow can
offer protection from the taint that is a powerful incentive to male
channelers, its not hard to go a step further and imagine a dreadlord
training program and Taim working his way up throught the heirarchy to
bad ass dreadlord level - the forsaken would know the top Dreadlords
and be wary of them I imagine.

Post by Zachary
There's no real indication that the servents or whoever would know who
Taim was, channeling in that manner would only serve to draw attention
to himself, which is counter-productive if he's hiding. So you have
reversed webs, which were introduced in WH so that negates the obvious
part or Taim using small amounts so that Rand thinks Asmodean is
channeling, which assumes that Taim knows that there is another male
channeler in the party.

The manner of Asmodean's death, the sheer speed of it - with his cry
still hanging in the air suggests it was via the OP or some other more
than normal means - OP or TP. Like I asked how much of Saidin and for
how long before Rand senses it? one quick flash of Balefire and
Asmodean is gone forever. Rand usually makes his presence felt for
about half a continent when he's pissed off.

Post by Zachary
Taim also doesn't really seem the type who panics easily and if saidin
channeling occured and was felt, it probably would have been mentioned,
as Rand thinks Asmodean just disappeared and as strangely dense as our
heroes are at times, if Rand felt channeling then Asmodean disappeared
I'm sure even he'd piece those two pieces together.

True that Taim does'nt seem to be easily perturbed, though Rand
believe Asmodean is still alive even to this time, so the use of the
OP at the time of his disappearance would only make Rand think he used
it to escape, however we never get any inkling that Rand felt anything
at the time, so thats one gap that I can't bridge.

Post by Zachary
Just to clear things up, the general Taim timeline as I remember it
- Declares himself DR.
- Creates war in Saldaea.
- Rand fights Ishy at Falme.
- Taim sees the image and is knocked out by a blinding light.
- Taim is captured.
- Freed with help on the way to Tar Valon (I'm not sure WHERE he was
freed though.)
- Bashere sent to kill/whatever Taim.
- Suian orders Taim to be recaptured and gentled on the spot. (The Tower
splits sometime soon after this I believe, so I think the order is put
aside for more important matters or something).
- ?

Bashere chases Taim into Andor, possibly into Caemlyn itself
Asmodean is Killed by persons unknown

Post by Zachary
- Taim turns up in Caemlyn with one of the seals at the start of LoC.
- Things after this.
The general questions that crop up with Taim are "What was he doing
before he declared himself?" and "What was he doing in the period of
time between his escape and turning up at Caemlyn?".

And where did he learn to channel, and weaves as complex as
Compulsion?
also how has he fought off the madness for 15 years?

Post by Zachary
You make a good point in showing that Taim is in Andor pre-Asmod's
death due to Bashere being there though, I had not considered that.
- Zachary

This is what gets me, its just the timing of Taims reintroduction to
the plot - Bashere appears in the palace just after Rand Balefires
Rahvin into last month tells Rand he has been hunting Taim and has
chased him here into Andor and then Asmodean dies right at about the
same time.

From the story we see Rand looking down into the courtyard where Asmo,
Mat and Aviendha are then Bashere arrives and has his talk to Rand
about Taim. The viewpoint shifts to Asmodean and his thoughts or what
he's trying not to think about as he walks off in search of wine, he
can't have gone far before he opens a door and steps into a room and
then he's toasted too.

The way i read this happened simultaneously, Bashere is telling Rand
that Taim is here somewhere, meanwhile Asmodean gets killed.

Still can't work out his motivation completely yet thought opportunity
is possible and he obvoisuly has the means, but why would he remove
Asmodean from the picture unless he was somekind of threat to him?

That he had the seal might be a clue, he may already have intended to
give it to Rand as a means of introduction and in an attempt to get
his protection - as one guy who can channel to another(a bit spurious
really, i know - How did he know Asmodean was with Rand? etc etc).


Andrew Brandon

[Sherm Pendley]

Post by Tensai
Still can't work out his motivation completely yet thought opportunity
is possible and he obvoisuly has the means, but why would he remove
Asmodean from the picture unless he was somekind of threat to him?

If Taim is a high-level DF, he had all the motivation he needs.

The Forsaken were told (by Lanfear, I think) that Asmodean had given his
allegiance to Rand. So it seems reasonable to assume that Asmo had a
price on his head that a high-level DF might know about.

Also, if Taim wanted to worm his way into Rand's good favor, he might
have been concerned that Asmo, having switched sides, would tell Rand
that Taim was a DF.

Either motive alone would be enough for Taim to kill Asmo, given the
opportunity and the means.

sherm--

[Tensai]

Post by Zachary

Post by Tensai

Post by Zachary

Post by Tensai
I think it was Taim, the more I re-read, the more certain I become of
this, just finished FoH and I find the timing of Taims
arrival/Asmodeans demise to be too good for coincedence. Then further
along as we begin to get suspicious of Taims allegiences we get closer
to a motivation.
Taim in my opinion, is likely to be a darkfriend and possibly high
level Dreadlord material, maybe he was given orders to approach Rand
once word of the amnesty got out and remove Asmodean when the
opportunity arose(possibly via Graendal? hence her knowledge of
Asmodeans death) or perhaps he was just in the right place in Caemlyn,
and took the opportune moment of running into Asmodean to get rid of
him, he has forsaken level strength( and possibly an Angreal after
Dumai's Wells) then reported back to Graendal the results.
Andrew Brandon.

You have your timing wrong here. Asmodean was dead before the amnesty
was announced, hell, any argument that bases Taim coming to Caemlyn
because of the amnesty logically makes it impossible for Taim to have
killed Asmodean, the timing just doesn't work.
The whole Taim thing just makes no sense to me anyway, so basically
we have Taim wandering around the Caemlyn Palace after one of the
Forsaken has been blasted to Shayol Ghul and back with balefire and
then Asmodean stumbles upon him and then Taim sits there and does the
test to see if he can channel saidin whilst Asmodean sits patiently and
looks about for wine, and then lo and behold, he can channel so Taim
then kills him, obviously using reversed webs so that Rand doesn't sense
him holding or using saidin.
However, to play the Dark One's advocate and because like all good
Darkfriends I like to increase chaos I can theorise a reason for Taim
being in Caemlyn or Andor so that he would have the opportunity to kill
Asmodean but you have to then figure out how Taim knew it was a renegade
male Forsaken since men don't sense the ability to channel in the same
way as women, another large flaw in the Taim did it argument I believe.
Oh, and please, PLEASE, keep in mind, this is pure supposition.
Firstly, let us assume that the Minion Taim theory is correct and that
Taim is Ishy's creature. After Ishy got whacked Taim was left without a
Forsaken to guide him. Taim is then snapped up by Rahvin ala Carridin
and Sammael, Taim is then sent on some mission by Rahvin to retrieve
one of the seals, however, by the time Taim got back Rahvin was whacked
or Caemlyn was under attack. It's not perfect but it doesn't have the same
timeframe problems as most of the other Taim theories out there.
- Zachary

I believe Rand mentions the amnesty to Bashere about the same time
Asmodean dies - which is also the time we hear of Taims presence in
Andor - convenient?
However that makes it obvious that Taim would have no knowledge of the
amnesty until later (sorry for rambling on nonsensically). Though to
move on lets look at opportunity - Taim is in Andor, if bashere is
chasing him he is probably in Caemlyn - we have absolutely no mention
of anyone else in or close to Andoror Caemlyn at the time who could
have a possible motivation and be capable of disposing of
Asmodean(also from what we now know of Taim he is not going to be out
in the country but close to where the power is)
RJ has reputedly said it should be obvious to us at the time of the
killing who did it and the convienient re-introduction of Taim after
such a long time in the scene directly preceding(concurrent with even)
the death is that just coincidental?
I don't believe for a moment he was idly wandering round the palace I
suspect he was driven there by Bashere or like your suggestion he was
in the service of Rahvin that would explain why he came to the Palace
in a more logical manner. As for the whole testing Asmo to see if he
can channel, why?, if he is a Darkfriend as i suspect then he would
know Asmodean,and would know he could channel. Also why assume he
killed him because he could channel? why not out of panic and fear at
being discovered.
Think about it - Taim is off working in the service of Rahvin, he gets
captured and then escapes(possibly with BA help), gets into trouble in
Saldaea so runs back to Rahvin with Bashere hot on his tail; figuring
to get protection there. But finds Rahvin is wormfood and Rand
stalking about the palace. So he tries hiding while he weighs his
options, but in walks Asmodean and boom, the rest is history as they
say.
Do we have anything that refutes this?
The one problem I have is - if Taim used the OP Rand would have felt
it, I suppose if he used a small enough amount Rand might assume it
was Asmodean?
Anyone add anything else?
Andrew Brandon

He wouldn't logically know one of the Forsaken, check out all the "If
you really are one of the Chosen..." lines by Darkfriends, the Forsaken
aren't well known by Darkfriends. So there has to be some way for Taim
and Asmodean to know each other for Asmodean's last words to fit.

Taim would logically have to be more than a random DF given he is
seemingly a gifted channeler and very powerful too, The Shadow can
offer protection from the taint that is a powerful incentive to male
channelers, its not hard to go a step further and imagine a dreadlord
training program and Taim working his way up throught the heirarchy to
bad ass dreadlord level - the forsaken would know the top Dreadlords
and be wary of them I imagine.

Post by Zachary
There's no real indication that the servents or whoever would know who
Taim was, channeling in that manner would only serve to draw attention
to himself, which is counter-productive if he's hiding. So you have
reversed webs, which were introduced in WH so that negates the obvious
part or Taim using small amounts so that Rand thinks Asmodean is
channeling, which assumes that Taim knows that there is another male
channeler in the party.

The manner of Asmodean's death, the sheer speed of it - with his cry
still hanging in the air suggests it was via the OP or some other more
than normal means - OP or TP. Like I asked how much of Saidin and for
how long before Rand senses it? one quick flash of Balefire and
Asmodean is gone forever. Rand usually makes his presence felt for
about half a continent when he's pissed off.

Post by Zachary
Taim also doesn't really seem the type who panics easily and if saidin
channeling occured and was felt, it probably would have been mentioned,
as Rand thinks Asmodean just disappeared and as strangely dense as our
heroes are at times, if Rand felt channeling then Asmodean disappeared
I'm sure even he'd piece those two pieces together.

True that Taim does'nt seem to be easily perturbed, though Rand
believe Asmodean is still alive even to this time, so the use of the
OP at the time of his disappearance would only make Rand think he used
it to escape, however we never get any inkling that Rand felt anything
at the time, so thats one gap that I can't bridge.

Post by Zachary
Just to clear things up, the general Taim timeline as I remember it
- Declares himself DR.
- Creates war in Saldaea.
- Rand fights Ishy at Falme.
- Taim sees the image and is knocked out by a blinding light.
- Taim is captured.
- Freed with help on the way to Tar Valon (I'm not sure WHERE he was
freed though.)
- Bashere sent to kill/whatever Taim.
- Suian orders Taim to be recaptured and gentled on the spot. (The Tower
splits sometime soon after this I believe, so I think the order is put
aside for more important matters or something).
- ?

Bashere chases Taim into Andor, possibly into Caemlyn itself
Asmodean is Killed by persons unknown

Post by Zachary
- Taim turns up in Caemlyn with one of the seals at the start of LoC.
- Things after this.
The general questions that crop up with Taim are "What was he doing
before he declared himself?" and "What was he doing in the period of
time between his escape and turning up at Caemlyn?".

And where did he learn to channel, and weaves as complex as
Compulsion?
also how has he fought off the madness for 15 years?

Post by Zachary
You make a good point in showing that Taim is in Andor pre-Asmod's
death due to Bashere being there though, I had not considered that.
- Zachary

This is what gets me, its just the timing of Taims reintroduction to
the plot - Bashere appears in the palace just after Rand Balefires
Rahvin into last month tells Rand he has been hunting Taim and has
chased him here into Andor and then Asmodean dies right at about the
same time.

From the story we see Rand looking down into the courtyard where Asmo,
Mat and Aviendha are then Bashere arrives and has his talk to Rand
about Taim. The viewpoint shifts to Asmodean and his thoughts or what
he's trying not to think about as he walks off in search of wine, he
can't have gone far before he opens a door and steps into a room and
then he's toasted too.

The way i read this happened simultaneously, Bashere is telling Rand
that Taim is here somewhere, meanwhile Asmodean gets killed.

Still can't work out his motivation completely yet thought opportunity
is possible and he obviously has the means, but why would he remove
Asmodean from the picture unless he was somekind of threat to him?

That he had the seal might be a clue, he may already have intended to
give it to Rand as a means of introduction and in an attempt to get
his protection - as one guy who can channel to another(a bit spurious
really, i know - How did he know Asmodean was with Rand? etc etc).


Andrew Brandon

[Sara]

Post by Tensai

Post by Zachary

Post by Tensai

Post by Zachary

Post by Tensai
I think it was Taim, the more I re-read, the more certain I become of
this, just finished FoH and I find the timing of Taims
arrival/Asmodeans demise to be too good for coincedence. Then further
along as we begin to get suspicious of Taims allegiences we get closer
to a motivation.
Taim in my opinion, is likely to be a darkfriend and possibly high
level Dreadlord material, maybe he was given orders to approach Rand
once word of the amnesty got out and remove Asmodean when the
opportunity arose(possibly via Graendal? hence her knowledge of
Asmodeans death) or perhaps he was just in the right place in Caemlyn,
and took the opportune moment of running into Asmodean to get rid of
him, he has forsaken level strength( and possibly an Angreal after
Dumai's Wells) then reported back to Graendal the results.
Andrew Brandon.

You have your timing wrong here. Asmodean was dead before the amnesty
was announced, hell, any argument that bases Taim coming to Caemlyn
because of the amnesty logically makes it impossible for Taim to have
killed Asmodean, the timing just doesn't work.
The whole Taim thing just makes no sense to me anyway, so basically
we have Taim wandering around the Caemlyn Palace after one of the
Forsaken has been blasted to Shayol Ghul and back with balefire and
then Asmodean stumbles upon him and then Taim sits there and does the
test to see if he can channel saidin whilst Asmodean sits patiently and
looks about for wine, and then lo and behold, he can channel so Taim
then kills him, obviously using reversed webs so that Rand doesn't sense
him holding or using saidin.
However, to play the Dark One's advocate and because like all good
Darkfriends I like to increase chaos I can theorise a reason for Taim
being in Caemlyn or Andor so that he would have the opportunity to kill
Asmodean but you have to then figure out how Taim knew it was a renegade
male Forsaken since men don't sense the ability to channel in the same
way as women, another large flaw in the Taim did it argument I believe.
Oh, and please, PLEASE, keep in mind, this is pure supposition.
Firstly, let us assume that the Minion Taim theory is correct and that
Taim is Ishy's creature. After Ishy got whacked Taim was left without a
Forsaken to guide him. Taim is then snapped up by Rahvin ala Carridin
and Sammael, Taim is then sent on some mission by Rahvin to retrieve
one of the seals, however, by the time Taim got back Rahvin was whacked
or Caemlyn was under attack. It's not perfect but it doesn't have the same
timeframe problems as most of the other Taim theories out there.
- Zachary

I believe Rand mentions the amnesty to Bashere about the same time
Asmodean dies - which is also the time we hear of Taims presence in
Andor - convenient?
However that makes it obvious that Taim would have no knowledge of the
amnesty until later (sorry for rambling on nonsensically). Though to
move on lets look at opportunity - Taim is in Andor, if bashere is
chasing him he is probably in Caemlyn - we have absolutely no mention
of anyone else in or close to Andoror Caemlyn at the time who could
have a possible motivation and be capable of disposing of
Asmodean(also from what we now know of Taim he is not going to be out
in the country but close to where the power is)
RJ has reputedly said it should be obvious to us at the time of the
killing who did it and the convienient re-introduction of Taim after
such a long time in the scene directly preceding(concurrent with even)
the death is that just coincidental?
I don't believe for a moment he was idly wandering round the palace I
suspect he was driven there by Bashere or like your suggestion he was
in the service of Rahvin that would explain why he came to the Palace
in a more logical manner. As for the whole testing Asmo to see if he
can channel, why?, if he is a Darkfriend as i suspect then he would
know Asmodean,and would know he could channel. Also why assume he
killed him because he could channel? why not out of panic and fear at
being discovered.
Think about it - Taim is off working in the service of Rahvin, he gets
captured and then escapes(possibly with BA help), gets into trouble in
Saldaea so runs back to Rahvin with Bashere hot on his tail; figuring
to get protection there. But finds Rahvin is wormfood and Rand
stalking about the palace. So he tries hiding while he weighs his
options, but in walks Asmodean and boom, the rest is history as they
say.
Do we have anything that refutes this?
The one problem I have is - if Taim used the OP Rand would have felt
it, I suppose if he used a small enough amount Rand might assume it
was Asmodean?
Anyone add anything else?
Andrew Brandon

He wouldn't logically know one of the Forsaken, check out all the "If
you really are one of the Chosen..." lines by Darkfriends, the Forsaken
aren't well known by Darkfriends. So there has to be some way for Taim
and Asmodean to know each other for Asmodean's last words to fit.

Taim would logically have to be more than a random DF given he is
seemingly a gifted channeler and very powerful too, The Shadow can
offer protection from the taint that is a powerful incentive to male
channelers, its not hard to go a step further and imagine a dreadlord
training program and Taim working his way up throught the heirarchy to
bad ass dreadlord level - the forsaken would know the top Dreadlords
and be wary of them I imagine.

Post by Zachary
There's no real indication that the servents or whoever would know who
Taim was, channeling in that manner would only serve to draw attention
to himself, which is counter-productive if he's hiding. So you have
reversed webs, which were introduced in WH so that negates the obvious
part or Taim using small amounts so that Rand thinks Asmodean is
channeling, which assumes that Taim knows that there is another male
channeler in the party.

The manner of Asmodean's death, the sheer speed of it - with his cry
still hanging in the air suggests it was via the OP or some other more
than normal means - OP or TP. Like I asked how much of Saidin and for
how long before Rand senses it? one quick flash of Balefire and
Asmodean is gone forever. Rand usually makes his presence felt for
about half a continent when he's pissed off.

Post by Zachary
Taim also doesn't really seem the type who panics easily and if saidin
channeling occured and was felt, it probably would have been mentioned,
as Rand thinks Asmodean just disappeared and as strangely dense as our
heroes are at times, if Rand felt channeling then Asmodean disappeared
I'm sure even he'd piece those two pieces together.

True that Taim does'nt seem to be easily perturbed, though Rand
believe Asmodean is still alive even to this time, so the use of the
OP at the time of his disappearance would only make Rand think he used
it to escape, however we never get any inkling that Rand felt anything
at the time, so thats one gap that I can't bridge.

Post by Zachary
Just to clear things up, the general Taim timeline as I remember it
- Declares himself DR.
- Creates war in Saldaea.
- Rand fights Ishy at Falme.
- Taim sees the image and is knocked out by a blinding light.
- Taim is captured.
- Freed with help on the way to Tar Valon (I'm not sure WHERE he was
freed though.)
- Bashere sent to kill/whatever Taim.
- Suian orders Taim to be recaptured and gentled on the spot. (The Tower
splits sometime soon after this I believe, so I think the order is put
aside for more important matters or something).
- ?

Bashere chases Taim into Andor, possibly into Caemlyn itself
Asmodean is Killed by persons unknown

Post by Zachary
- Taim turns up in Caemlyn with one of the seals at the start of LoC.
- Things after this.
The general questions that crop up with Taim are "What was he doing
before he declared himself?" and "What was he doing in the period of
time between his escape and turning up at Caemlyn?".

And where did he learn to channel, and weaves as complex as
Compulsion?
also how has he fought off the madness for 15 years?

Post by Zachary
You make a good point in showing that Taim is in Andor pre-Asmod's
death due to Bashere being there though, I had not considered that.
- Zachary

This is what gets me, its just the timing of Taims reintroduction to
the plot - Bashere appears in the palace just after Rand Balefires
Rahvin into last month tells Rand he has been hunting Taim and has
chased him here into Andor and then Asmodean dies right at about the
same time.
From the story we see Rand looking down into the courtyard where Asmo,
Mat and Aviendha are then Bashere arrives and has his talk to Rand
about Taim. The viewpoint shifts to Asmodean and his thoughts or what
he's trying not to think about as he walks off in search of wine, he
can't have gone far before he opens a door and steps into a room and
then he's toasted too.
The way i read this happened simultaneously, Bashere is telling Rand
that Taim is here somewhere, meanwhile Asmodean gets killed.
Still can't work out his motivation completely yet thought opportunity
is possible and he obviously has the means, but why would he remove
Asmodean from the picture unless he was somekind of threat to him?
That he had the seal might be a clue, he may already have intended to
give it to Rand as a means of introduction and in an attempt to get
his protection - as one guy who can channel to another(a bit spurious
really, i know - How did he know Asmodean was with Rand? etc etc).
Andrew Brandon

possible motivation - Asmodean might reveal Taim as a darkfriend or whatever.

[Rich Rius]

<snip>

Post by Tensai
I believe Rand mentions the amnesty to Bashere about the same time
Asmodean dies - which is also the time we hear of Taims presence in
Andor - convenient?

Yes, but not in the way you mean. Rand had to learn how to use the
power. Asmo served that purpose. Rand needed men who could channel
to help him face the dreadlords at the Last Battle. Rand could not
teach them; he does not have time and we would not want to read about
it. (RJ may not be willing to spare us 800 words on why Elayne chose
the low cut, blue dress with the tight bodice, but he wouldn't put us
through that.) Asmo could not be the teacher because Rand could never
trust a forsaken not to teach them things Rand wouldn't like. Logain
could not because he was still stuck in Salidar and it would take too
long to move him to Caemlyn. Taim was the only other male channeller
we had heard of from this age that was still alive. He could be
teacher, evil guy, and red-herring (I never believed the Taimandred
theory). Furthermore, Taim had to be in place right at the beginning
of the book to give him enough time to actually recruit and teach
before Dumai's Wells.

Post by Tensai
However that makes it obvious that Taim would have no knowledge of the
amnesty until later (sorry for rambling on nonsensically). Though to
move on lets look at opportunity - Taim is in Andor, if bashere is
chasing him he is probably in Caemlyn - we have absolutely no mention
of anyone else in or close to Andoror Caemlyn at the time who could
have a possible motivation and be capable of disposing of
Asmodean(also from what we now know of Taim he is not going to be out
in the country but close to where the power is)

Not exactly true. Graendal was in league with Rahvin. Graendal likes
to cover up her involvement with failures. We see this from her
actions right after Sammael dies and from a discussion with Sammael.
As for how she knew what was going down--if Moggy could know, so could
she. Remember, Nyn and Moggy end up in Caemlyn(TAR) because Moggy
knew Rand was going to get Rahvin. She could easily been in Andor.
Also, she has three motives for killing him: his betraying the DO,
his being a rival Forsaken, and his catching her in the act of
covering up.

Post by Tensai
RJ has reputedly said it should be obvious to us at the time of the
killing who did it and the convienient re-introduction of Taim after
such a long time in the scene directly preceding(concurrent with even)
the death is that just coincidental?

To split a hair, Taim's reintroduction (and first on-screen) does not
happen until *after* Asmo dies. Asmo dies at the end of TFOH; Taim
appears in Chapter 2 of LOC after Bashere mentioning him in Chapter 1.

Post by Tensai
I don't believe for a moment he was idly wandering round the palace I
suspect he was driven there by Bashere or like your suggestion he was
in the service of Rahvin that would explain why he came to the Palace
in a more logical manner. As for the whole testing Asmo to see if he
can channel, why?, if he is a Darkfriend as i suspect then he would
know Asmodean,and would know he could channel. Also why assume he
killed him because he could channel? why not out of panic and fear at
being discovered.

If Taim was there to help Rahvin, he would have helped or bolted. He
would not have wandered the palace.
Moreover, how would a random darkfriend know a Forsaken on sight? He
would need signals that Amso didn't have time to give.

Post by Tensai
Think about it - Taim is off working in the service of Rahvin, he gets
captured and then escapes(possibly with BA help), gets into trouble in
Saldaea so runs back to Rahvin with Bashere hot on his tail; figuring
to get protection there. But finds Rahvin is wormfood and Rand
stalking about the palace. So he tries hiding while he weighs his
options, but in walks Asmodean and boom, the rest is history as they
say.

This is pretty convoluted. Ask yourself why. Why was Taim doing work
for Rahvin? What plot purpose does that serve? Why would Rahvin have
Taim declare himself in Saldea, then work his mojo in Caemlyn?

Post by Tensai
Do we have anything that refutes this?
The one problem I have is - if Taim used the OP Rand would have felt
it, I suppose if he used a small enough amount Rand might assume it
was Asmodean?

Even if he did, he would have gone to it as soon as was feasible to
chew Asmo out. He always did.

Post by Tensai
Anyone add anything else?
Andrew Brandon

[Jeroen Geilman]

Post by Rich Rius
<snip>

Post by Tensai
RJ has reputedly said it should be obvious to us at the time of the
killing who did it and the convienient re-introduction of Taim after
such a long time in the scene directly preceding(concurrent with even)
the death is that just coincidental?

To split a hair, Taim's reintroduction (and first on-screen) does not
happen until *after* Asmo dies. Asmo dies at the end of TFOH; Taim
appears in Chapter 2 of LOC after Bashere mentioning him in Chapter 1.

Exactly.
Not only that, but he has reportedly stated that not only have we heard
of the killer in the first 5 books, but we have actually *seen* him.

So no Taim.
And none of the unseen-up-to-that-point FS either, but that has always
been assumed.

It's still Graendal for me.

[Aaron Sanders]

Post by Jeroen Geilman

Post by Rich Rius
<snip>

Post by Tensai
RJ has reputedly said it should be obvious to us at the time of the
killing who did it and the convienient re-introduction of Taim after
such a long time in the scene directly preceding(concurrent with even)
the death is that just coincidental?

To split a hair, Taim's reintroduction (and first on-screen) does not
happen until *after* Asmo dies. Asmo dies at the end of TFOH; Taim
appears in Chapter 2 of LOC after Bashere mentioning him in Chapter 1.

Exactly.
Not only that, but he has reportedly stated that not only have we heard
of the killer in the first 5 books, but we have actually *seen* him.

Look here: ^^^^

Post by Jeroen Geilman
So no Taim.
And none of the unseen-up-to-that-point FS either, but that has always
been assumed.
It's still Graendal for me.

Graendal is not a "him." Sorry, no Graendal either ;)

-Aaron

[Tensai]

Post by Rich Rius
<snip>

Post by Tensai
I believe Rand mentions the amnesty to Bashere about the same time
Asmodean dies - which is also the time we hear of Taims presence in
Andor - convenient?

Yes, but not in the way you mean. Rand had to learn how to use the
power. Asmo served that purpose. Rand needed men who could channel
to help him face the dreadlords at the Last Battle. Rand could not
teach them; he does not have time and we would not want to read about
it. (RJ may not be willing to spare us 800 words on why Elayne chose
the low cut, blue dress with the tight bodice, but he wouldn't put us
through that.) Asmo could not be the teacher because Rand could never
trust a forsaken not to teach them things Rand wouldn't like. Logain
could not because he was still stuck in Salidar and it would take too
long to move him to Caemlyn. Taim was the only other male channeller
we had heard of from this age that was still alive. He could be
teacher, evil guy, and red-herring (I never believed the Taimandred
theory). Furthermore, Taim had to be in place right at the beginning
of the book to give him enough time to actually recruit and teach
before Dumai's Wells.

Yes I understand that, but that leaves us more unanswered questions -
if Rand who is possibly the most powerful and gifted Male Channeler in
3000 years had to go to the Forsaken for training - how did Taim
Learn? and for that matter Logain?

Besides Rands motivation for the creation of the Asha'man was not in
question, I was using the scene directly previous to Asmodean's death
to show that Taim might not have physically appeared yet but his
presence was known.

If Taim has some connection to the DO(it occurs to me that we might
have been underestimating Taim, Minion Taim is pretty dumb given what
we know of him now, it would'nt surprise me to find that the DO has
been creating a few NEW Chosen, Taim certainly has the strength and
cunning for it) perhaps via some dreadlord training program that
Ishamael had running previously (the jump from high up in the
dreadlord heirarchy to making his own pact with the DO is'nt really
that hard to imagine for Taim) then to have met Asmodean at some point
is'nt really far fetched.

The thing that hangs this argument is we have nothing to really show
Taim is a DF only that he has his own agenda, everything he has done
can be put down to his own and not plans inspired by the dark.

Post by Rich Rius

Post by Tensai
However that makes it obvious that Taim would have no knowledge of the
amnesty until later (sorry for rambling on nonsensically). Though to
move on lets look at opportunity - Taim is in Andor, if bashere is
chasing him he is probably in Caemlyn - we have absolutely no mention
of anyone else in or close to Andoror Caemlyn at the time who could
have a possible motivation and be capable of disposing of
Asmodean(also from what we now know of Taim he is not going to be out
in the country but close to where the power is)

Not exactly true. Graendal was in league with Rahvin. Graendal likes
to cover up her involvement with failures. We see this from her
actions right after Sammael dies and from a discussion with Sammael.
As for how she knew what was going down--if Moggy could know, so could
she. Remember, Nyn and Moggy end up in Caemlyn(TAR) because Moggy
knew Rand was going to get Rahvin. She could easily been in Andor.
Also, she has three motives for killing him: his betraying the DO,
his being a rival Forsaken, and his catching her in the act of
covering up.

Graendal also does'nt like to kill when she can manipulate, i don't
believe she would have killed him if she could have used him since he
was so close to Rand at the time.

Post by Rich Rius

Post by Tensai
RJ has reputedly said it should be obvious to us at the time of the
killing who did it and the convienient re-introduction of Taim after
such a long time in the scene directly preceding(concurrent with even)
the death is that just coincidental?

To split a hair, Taim's reintroduction (and first on-screen) does not
happen until *after* Asmo dies. Asmo dies at the end of TFOH; Taim
appears in Chapter 2 of LOC after Bashere mentioning him in Chapter 1.

His first on-screen introduction is in LOC, but directly previous to
Asmo dying Bashere is speaking to Rand about why he is in Caemlyn, he
is chasing Mazrim Taim and he has chased him here into Andor, so Taim
is there somewhere and i doubt Bashere would chase him into Andor and
make a detour to talk to Rand, Bashere seems quite intense in his
pursuit, so wherever Bashere is Taim won't be far away at this point.

Post by Rich Rius

Post by Tensai
I don't believe for a moment he was idly wandering round the palace I
suspect he was driven there by Bashere or like your suggestion he was
in the service of Rahvin that would explain why he came to the Palace
in a more logical manner. As for the whole testing Asmo to see if he
can channel, why?, if he is a Darkfriend as i suspect then he would
know Asmodean,and would know he could channel. Also why assume he
killed him because he could channel? why not out of panic and fear at
being discovered.

If Taim was there to help Rahvin, he would have helped or bolted. He
would not have wandered the palace.
Moreover, how would a random darkfriend know a Forsaken on sight? He
would need signals that Amso didn't have time to give.

Depends on the timing of his arrival, if he arrived to late and Rahvin
is toasted but before the dragon banner is hoisted above Caemyln then
he might have a bit of a problem, he does'nt want to go toe to toe
with Rand and Bashere is right on his tail.

I don't believe Taim can be considered a random DF (assuming he is
one).

Post by Rich Rius

Post by Tensai
Think about it - Taim is off working in the service of Rahvin, he gets
captured and then escapes(possibly with BA help), gets into trouble in
Saldaea so runs back to Rahvin with Bashere hot on his tail; figuring
to get protection there. But finds Rahvin is wormfood and Rand
stalking about the palace. So he tries hiding while he weighs his
options, but in walks Asmodean and boom, the rest is history as they
say.

This is pretty convoluted. Ask yourself why. Why was Taim doing work
for Rahvin? What plot purpose does that serve? Why would Rahvin have
Taim declare himself in Saldea, then work his mojo in Caemlyn?

Whatever would further his own ends I suppose, Taim does not like
being under anyones foot, he'll bend his neck when it suits him but he
will always pursue his own ends. His work in Saldaea fell apart on him
so he has to make some new plans

Post by Rich Rius

Post by Tensai
Do we have anything that refutes this?
The one problem I have is - if Taim used the OP Rand would have felt
it, I suppose if he used a small enough amount Rand might assume it
was Asmodean?

Even if he did, he would have gone to it as soon as was feasible to
chew Asmo out. He always did.

He was talking to Bashere at the time i believe, this would allow a
little time for the deed to be done and the evidence to be cleaned up.



can anyone tell me how long Taim has been channeling - i seem to
recall he said he had held off the madness for 15 years is this
correct?


Andrew Brandon

[Timothy Bruening]

Post by Lara
[SACIAGAP]
You know, with the number of posts we get on this subject, it's a
wonder that no one's come up with a WoT-themed version of the game
Clue/Cluedo.
"It was Graendal in the pantry with the balefire."
"No, it was Moghedian in the scullery with the weave of fire."
"No, you're all wrong, it was Semirhage in the kicthen with her
Ingenious Torture Ter'Angreal(tm)."
"I think it's obvious that it was Padan Fain in the closet with the
Shadar Mandarb."

Was that the name of his dagger?

[Adsin]

Uhh
I think Jordan killed Asmodean.
He was no longer needed for the story, was getting to be troublesome
and he needed him off. So he wrote a line that killed Asmodean off and
left it to us to bicker who it is, even though he don't know don't
care.
He simply killed the bothersome character off.

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 11 Sep 2004 14:50:53 -0700 - there was

Post by Adsin
He simply killed the bothersome character off.

This doesn't sound much like the Jordan I know and love.




C&J

[Shivan_13]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 11 Sep 2004 14:50:53 -0700 - there was

Post by Adsin
He simply killed the bothersome character off.

This doesn't sound much like the Jordan I know and love.
C&J

I think that if the one power was used to kill asmodean, either Rand,
or one of the wise ones would have known that there was channeling
done. A gateway would draw a lot of power and would be investigated
by all. I think one of three possible entities/people killed
Asmodean.
1) Moridin could have done it because no one can detect his
channeling - he uses the true source rather than the one power. But
he would not bring himself down to the level of assasin, he would have
someone else do it.
2) A gholam was sent to kill Asmodean due to his failures. He is
not affected by the one power and could easily enter and exit without
being detected. He/She also could definitely leave a mess when
finished (Herid Fel).
3) Isam/Luke, who is the assasin who can enter the dream world and
pop out. I believe he was sent to kill Rand, but killed a merchant
instead. Of course it has not been proven that the assasin and
Isam/Luke is the same but I believe it is. Also, the "Chosen" know
him and use him. It is obvious that Asmodean knew his attacker.

Shivan_13

[Kison]

Asmodean felt a chill before he entered the room, similar to Rand
sensing channeling from a female. Graendal making a gate perhaps?

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Kison
Asmodean felt a chill before he entered the room, similar to Rand
sensing channeling from a female. Graendal making a gate perhaps?

First: give us some context, so we know what you're replying to. Then:
Yeah, or one of maybe several thousand other women channeling for one
reason or another somewhere near there. Besides, if it was a
woman-channeling thing, he'd damn well have *known*.

Jasper