Aes Sedai Breaks First Oath! A Memory Of Light Spoilers

[TB]

1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1

PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

[David Goldfarb]

Can I ask you please not to crosspost between rec.arts.sf.written
and rasfw.robert-jordan? The whole point of creating rasfw.r-j
was to take Wheel of Time traffic *out* of rasfw.

Followups set to rasfw.r-j.

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by David Goldfarb
Can I ask you please not to crosspost between rec.arts.sf.written
and rasfw.robert-jordan? The whole point of creating rasfw.r-j
was to take Wheel of Time traffic *out* of rasfw.
Followups set to rasfw.r-j.

Are you serious?



***@w

[David DeLaney]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by David Goldfarb
Can I ask you please not to crosspost between rec.arts.sf.written
and rasfw.robert-jordan? The whole point of creating rasfw.r-j
was to take Wheel of Time traffic *out* of rasfw.
Followups set to rasfw.r-j.

Are you serious?

He probably is ... but he's also following up to Tim Bruening, who almost
certainly will totally ignore any such request because he's been crossposting
OCD-ically for ages.

Also sorry about the blank email reply, hit the wrong button.

Dave (that's what SHE said)

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by David Goldfarb
Can I ask you please not to crosspost between rec.arts.sf.written
and rasfw.robert-jordan? The whole point of creating rasfw.r-j
was to take Wheel of Time traffic *out* of rasfw.
Followups set to rasfw.r-j.

Are you serious?

He probably is ... but he's also following up to Tim Bruening, who almost
certainly will totally ignore any such request because he's been crossposting
OCD-ically for ages.

Hee, true. Although he *does* reply to actual responses.

Post by David DeLaney
Also sorry about the blank email reply, hit the wrong button.

No worries. I was mainly puzzled by the idea that any newsgroup would
be so kicking with life that this handful of Wheel of Time posts would
classify as unwelcome sideline spam. The split was orchestrated back
in the day when rasfw was a huge and generic group, and Jordan-talk
was filling it up to such a degree that a separate group was
warranted. That hardly seems to be the case now.

Mind you, I am still all for the idea of moving Sanderson discussion
into the Jordan groups.



***@w

[TB]

Post by David Goldfarb
Can I ask you please not to crosspost between rec.arts.sf.written
and rasfw.robert-jordan?  The whole point of creating rasfw.r-j
was to take Wheel of Time traffic *out* of rasfw.

However, there doesn't seem to be much Wheel of Time traffic these
days. Are you sure that its necessary to keep such traffic out of
rec.arts.sf.written?

[Chucky @ Work]

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT), TB

Post by TB
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.




***@w

[Rast]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by TB
PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

I don't think it counts as a lie, because there is no intent to deceive
Emarin, who Pevara knows knows the truth.

She is deceiving Dobster, but:
(1) She isn't deceiving him about the substance of what she is saying,
because he knows very well that he can hear what they are saying.
She's deceiving him about her intentions.
and (2) it might be OK to lie for the benefit of eavesdroppers, on the
rationale that one is not talking *to* them.

Ultimately, the Oath is enforced by Pevara's perceptions, not by any
objective standard, so if she can genuinely convince herself that the
words are technically not a lie, she can say them.

"One of a thousand weaknesses of those fool oaths."

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Rast

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by TB
PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

I don't think it counts as a lie, because there is no intent to deceive
Emarin, who Pevara knows knows the truth.

Good point.

Post by Rast
(1) She isn't deceiving him about the substance of what she is saying,
because he knows very well that he can hear what they are saying.
She's deceiving him about her intentions.
and (2) it might be OK to lie for the benefit of eavesdroppers, on the
rationale that one is not talking *to* them.

Also true.

Post by Rast
Ultimately, the Oath is enforced by Pevara's perceptions, not by any
objective standard, so if she can genuinely convince herself that the
words are technically not a lie, she can say them.
"One of a thousand weaknesses of those fool oaths."

Right, it seems like this is another loophole Aes Sedai could use a
lot to lie to people. No wonder nobody trusted or liked them. The Oath
about lying was really pretty pointless in the end. Although it was an
interesting characteristic. And "The Couple Of Oaths" isn't very
punchy.



***@w

[TB]

Post by Chucky @ Work
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT), TB

Post by TB
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow.  Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers.  Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

They had arranged, as you say, to put on a play for him. To say this violates the oath against lying is to say that an Aes Sedai cannot act in any play or any other sort of make-believe. Basically, they arranged that he would ask if Dobbie can hear, and she would say "no". Thus, she's not lying, she's *acting*

Have you ever heard of an AS acting in a play on screen?

[TB]

Post by TB

Post by Chucky @ Work
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT), TB

Post by TB
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow.  Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers.  Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

They had arranged, as you say, to put on a play for him. To say this violates the oath against lying is to say that an Aes Sedai cannot act in any play or any other sort of make-believe. Basically, they arranged that he would ask if Dobbie can hear, and she would say "no". Thus, she's not lying, she's *acting*

Have you ever heard of an AS acting in a play on screen?

A completely irrelevant question to which you know the answer.
The only "plays" in the entire series, IIRC, are from gleemen and the like. That means nothing.

This has been such a long series that I thought I might have missed an
AS play admist all the wordage!

I do remember Leane Sedai helping Min play the part of a dim headed
girl in The Shadow Rising!

[Timothy Bruening]

Post by TB
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Also: The Shadow Rising: Siuan tells Min that as far as she's concerned, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne are working penance on a farm.