KoD: My thoughts. *SPOILERS*

[David Wren-Hardin]

Apparently Google gobbles space, so we now have to fill in the space
with meaningless chatter. Much like a Robert Jordan book. So, I'll fill
my space with questions. I have been away from Uselessnet for a long
time, and find the usual Ways closed. (I miss my strn!) How do people
read news now anyway? What is LiveJournal, besides being a blog tool?
Any DF Socials coming up in the NYC area? What the hell happened to
Theo Epstein and the Red Sox?

Ok, now to my thoughts. In a word, this book sucked.

That's still an improvement over the last book, Path of Crowning Swords
in the Heart of Winter's Twilight, which sucked a lot more than just
one word.

I have devoted 40% of my life to reading this series. I have received
an advanced degree, changed careers, had two kids, moved from the
Hearland to the Borderlands and then to the other side of the country,
and we _still_ can't get Moiraine out of that goddam tower.

One of my frustrations with this book is that there are passages that
are good to even great. Galad and his duel. Egwene in the tower.
Nynaeve rallying the Malkieri. Like others apparently, I nearly wept
when I read the "Golden Crane Rides" part. Perrin striking down Faile's
Aiel friend (whose name escapes me) was my Gasp moment. Jordan did a
great job with the random brutality of war. Jordan can still write
great, tension filled scenes. So why do we get pages and pages of
mood-swings, goat's milk, and prodigeous bosems stretching taut silk?

Maybe I'm just getting older, but I'm tired of scene after scene of
discipline being enforced by spankings and whippings. Sure, that seemed
llike a realistic depiction of how the world worked when I was in
graduate school, but now that I've seen the Real World, I'd spend
exactly two seconds in the company of Aes Sedai/Wisewomen/WindFinders
before I carrier-pigeoned my resume to another company.

Some of the scenes just seemed like gratuitous answers to reader
questions. Is Morridin Ishy? Lets have a random Forsaken meeting to
confirm it. Why don't the Forsaken spend more time attacking Rand? Ok,
I'll have a bazillion Shadowspawn attack his camp, and have them all
blown apart in by a half-dozen channelers and a couple of floppy-eared
giants.

I won't even get into the cover art.

-David "Taim will always be Demandred to me" Wren-Hardin
-***@yahoo.com
-***@gmail.com
-home.comcast.net/~amygdala

[Calyn]

Agreement here.

The book had some *really* good moments, particularly those you
mentioned above.

I know this may sound crazy, but I think the thing I was most upset by
was ... well, too many things wrapped up at once. We spend three (or
more) books A) watching Elayne maneuver for the throne of Andor, B)
watching Faile being captured and Perrin worrying about saving her, C)
seeing Halima try to worm his/her way into power with Egwene, and D)
seeing Semirhage slowly work her way in with the Seanchan.

All these things were wrapped up in this book, in two chapters or less
each. Two quick, anti-climactic chapters.

Makes me want to bang my head into a wall until the pain stops.

[Karan Juneja]

Post by Calyn
Agreement here.
The book had some *really* good moments, particularly those you
mentioned above.
I know this may sound crazy, but I think the thing I was most upset by
was ... well, too many things wrapped up at once. We spend three (or
more) books A) watching Elayne maneuver for the throne of Andor, B)
watching Faile being captured and Perrin worrying about saving her, C)
seeing Halima try to worm his/her way into power with Egwene, and D)
seeing Semirhage slowly work her way in with the Seanchan.
All these things were wrapped up in this book, in two chapters or less
each. Two quick, anti-climactic chapters.

Would you really have preferred the excruiciation to go on? I couldn't
wait to rip into this book, having throughly spoilt it for myself before
convincing myself to buy it and read it properly. And I was almost
crying through all those chapters where nothing was happening - I
skipped pages here and there because i couldn't see a line of worthwhile
dialogue! But when the action happened, it happend quick, and believably
enough that I was like "HEll yeah that makes it worth my dosh".

Can't wait for the final book, just so i can put it down and say "Gee,
thank god that's over with." RJ, you're brilliant at weaving plots, but
remember to wrap them up before they get tired.

[Hrishikesh Diwan]

Jordan has got to stop writing pithy prologues followed by watered
down, and rambling main books. Wish the whole of KOD could be paced the
way its prologue was!

[Jim Hill]

David Wren-Hardin wrote:

Holy Christ. I thought you were dead.

What's that?

Ah, wife and kids.

Well, close enough.


Jim

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by David Wren-Hardin
Apparently Google gobbles space, so we now have to fill in the space
with meaningless chatter. Much like a Robert Jordan book. So, I'll fill
my space with questions. I have been away from Uselessnet for a long
time, and find the usual Ways closed. (I miss my strn!) How do people
read news now anyway? What is LiveJournal, besides being a blog tool?
Any DF Socials coming up in the NYC area? What the hell happened to
Theo Epstein and the Red Sox?
Ok, now to my thoughts. In a word, this book sucked.
That's still an improvement over the last book, Path of Crowning Swords
in the Heart of Winter's Twilight, which sucked a lot more than just
one word.
I have devoted 40% of my life to reading this series. I have received
an advanced degree, changed careers, had two kids, moved from the
Hearland to the Borderlands and then to the other side of the country,
and we _still_ can't get Moiraine out of that goddam tower.
One of my frustrations with this book is that there are passages that
are good to even great. Galad and his duel. Egwene in the tower.
Nynaeve rallying the Malkieri. Like others apparently, I nearly wept
when I read the "Golden Crane Rides" part. Perrin striking down Faile's
Aiel friend (whose name escapes me) was my Gasp moment. Jordan did a
great job with the random brutality of war. Jordan can still write
great, tension filled scenes. So why do we get pages and pages of
mood-swings, goat's milk, and prodigeous bosems stretching taut silk?
Maybe I'm just getting older, but I'm tired of scene after scene of
discipline being enforced by spankings and whippings. Sure, that seemed
llike a realistic depiction of how the world worked when I was in
graduate school, but now that I've seen the Real World, I'd spend
exactly two seconds in the company of Aes Sedai/Wisewomen/WindFinders
before I carrier-pigeoned my resume to another company.
Some of the scenes just seemed like gratuitous answers to reader
questions. Is Morridin Ishy? Lets have a random Forsaken meeting to
confirm it. Why don't the Forsaken spend more time attacking Rand? Ok,
I'll have a bazillion Shadowspawn attack his camp, and have them all
blown apart in by a half-dozen channelers and a couple of floppy-eared
giants.
I won't even get into the cover art.
-David "Taim will always be Demandred to me" Wren-Hardin
-home.comcast.net/~amygdala

[Bill E. Brooks]

I think we are past the point where spoiler space is required,
but until somebody tells me differently, I'll keep doing it.

Post by David Wren-Hardin
Perrin striking down Faile's
Aiel friend (whose name escapes me) was my Gasp moment.

Many people have had a similar reaction on this newsgroup. Maybe I am
in denial, but I have refused to believe this scene is what it seems.
The lesser reason is that if this scene is what it seems, it would be so
deeply disturbing to me, more so than any in the entire series, that
it would really make me question RJ's morality. The greater reason
is the following inconsistency:

The affiliation of the man who Perrin struck down:
"The big Shaido seemed to hesitate for a heartbeat, and Perrin took
advantage of it."

Rolan's affiliation:
"He was not Shaido, but one of the Brotherless, the Mera'din, men who
had left their clans because they would not follow Rand al'Thor, and
he had indeed been the one to 'make her gai'shain'."

This could be explained away by saying that it was Perrin's POV, and
he was confused. But this situation seems to me to be unprecedented
in this series.

Well, if the Shaido wasn't Rolan, then who was he? There was a man
named Nadric from whom Rolan "rescued" her in CoT.

His affiliation:
"A gai'shain always made way for any Shaido."

But Rolan's description matches that of the big Shaido, you say?
Compare the following:

The big Shaido's description:
"three were veiled algai'd'siswai, one of them a hulking fellow who
would have dwarfed Lamgwin."

Rolan's description:
"She fought, kicking, punching, even biting, but the fellow was as
wide as Perrin and a head taller."

Nadric's description:
"He was the biggest man she had ever seen, perhaps seven feet tall
and thick in proportion. Not fat--she had never seen a fat Aiel--
but very wide."

A comparison:
"Rolan was no more than a hand shorter than Nadric, and almost as
wide, and she had reason to want to stab him too."

Faile's reaction to this scene was decidedly understated (as others
have noted). She made little effort to convince Perrin to hold back,
and didn't tell Perrin that he had hurt a good man.

Perrin smelled the following reaction a while after the fact:
"The dull, aching scent of sadness and the greasy aroma of guilt.
Shame, like thousands of hair-fine needles pricking."
Likely she was feeling guilt and shame because of Rolan. But that does
not mean those feelings were induced by the recently deceased big
Shaido. If the big Shaido was Nadric, she'd still have been feeling
guilty and shameful about her indescretions with Rolan.

What about the big Shaido's hesitation? Surely that meant he recognized
Perrin's name? But he reacted the same way when Rolan confronted him:
"Abruptly, the monster carrying her stopped."

-Bill E. Brooks

[ioanna]

Fresh spoiler space
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Post by Bill E. Brooks
I think we are past the point where spoiler space is required,
but until somebody tells me differently, I'll keep doing it.

Post by David Wren-Hardin
Perrin striking down Faile's
Aiel friend (whose name escapes me) was my Gasp moment.

Many people have had a similar reaction on this newsgroup. Maybe I am
in denial, but I have refused to believe this scene is what it seems.
The lesser reason is that if this scene is what it seems, it would be so
deeply disturbing to me, more so than any in the entire series, that
it would really make me question RJ's morality. The greater reason

<snip Rolan-Nadric comparison>

I am not certain if you meant to say that it was Nadric and not Rolan
killed by Perrin ? It seemed to me that is what you meant, but I am not
certain I understood correctly ?
If that is the case (I may have misunderstood you though), I am sorry,
but I think you are in denial, as you mentioned. Your post didn't even
give me the hope, that "hey, maybe I misunderstood and Rolan wasn't
killed after all", because I was initially so incredulous when reading
this scene, that I read it and re-read it, also going backwards and
forwards to crosscheck who is who, to make certain, and unfortunately
there is no room for any other interpretation. "Interpretation' is not
needed anyway, as the facts are VERY clear in the first place. (I just
found them so disturbing, I could not credit my eyes while first
reading that scene).

It is very clear that there are 3 Aiel (Meradin and not 'real' Shaido,
but perrin does not know that) with Faile & co after they rescued them,
Rolan (has faile by the arm), Jhoradin (has Lacile by the arm) and
Kinhuin.

Perrin kills Rolan ("GASP!", for me at least)

It isn't clear who kills the other two. Two of the rescued kill the
remaining two of their rescuers though (Gasp again!)

It seems? that the 2 murderers (yes, murderers) are Faile herself (who
stabs Kinhuin -with the green eyes- in the back, and as he dies he
looks back over his shoulder at her in surpise, probalby thinking "Huh?
but I just helped rescue you..") and Lacile who killes Jhoradin (he was
next to her). She cries afterward and Perrin thinks it is because she
killed someone. (But Perin could be wrong). The point is that whoever
did the other 2, they were 2 of the 'just rescued' people (We don't
know who exactly though. Probably Faile and Lacile, but that is not
clear).

I confess I was deeply disturbed by this scene. It is not that good
guys can not die (eg Herid Fel was killed by a Gholam? and there are
countless other examples.) But good guys killed by 'good' guys? (and
not darkfriends, shadospawn or 'plain' bad guys?) AND good guys killed
by 'good' guys *they had just rescued* ? And even so, since accidents
and misunderstadnings do happen, no remorse afterwards? This final
point is what disturbed me the most. Say Faile and Lacile knew that now
that Perrin found them the 3 had to die (since perrin attacked them.)
But at least let them show profound remorse, guilt, unhapiness
afterwards. For an unfair fight (Rolan, poor guy, hesitated in
defending himself when he heard Faile call his attacker 'Perrin') and
the other 2 were murdered in cold blood. (stabbed in the back by people
they did not consider enemies).

Anyway I am afraid there is no way we can have Nadric in place of Rolan
unfortunately. I wish there was a way, but it is just wishful thinking.
And what about the other 2 dead meradin?

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Faile's reaction to this scene was decidedly understated (as others
have noted). She made little effort to convince Perrin to hold back,
and didn't tell Perrin that he had hurt a good man.
"The dull, aching scent of sadness and the greasy aroma of guilt.
Shame, like thousands of hair-fine needles pricking."
Likely she was feeling guilt and shame because of Rolan. But that does
not mean those feelings were induced by the recently deceased big
Shaido. If the big Shaido was Nadric, she'd still have been feeling
guilty and shameful about her indescretions with Rolan.

I have mentioned again how disturbed I was at this scene, especially at
Faile's reaction. Perrin acted under a misapprehension (he thought
these were enemies about to harm Faile. Although there was no evidence
of that, they were just walking together). But Faile ? And I was
pointed to the passage you quote above, and it was mentioned that Faile
shows regret for the death of Rolan. And I thought yes, but not nearly
enough, under the circumstances. (just in my opinion). But now that I
read it again more carefuly, it may not show even that, i think.

Is she feeling sadness, guilt and shame because of Rolan's death? (at
the hands of Perrin, after he had rescued her again and she did nothing
to stop it - and maybe because she killed Kinhuin herself)

Or is she feeling sadness, guilt and shame because of her
'relationship' with Rolan ? (Because she is married to Perrin, but she
also liked Rolan and was flaterred by his interest.)

Because if it is the 2nd case (and yes, as you say, it wouldn't matter
who was killed Rolan or Nadric, in that case) then she does not show
even that little remorse for these deaths. (Because the remorse is for
her 'relationship' with Rolan -while he was alive of course - and not
for what just happened (their 3 meradin rescuers dead).

Even if her feelings (sadness guilt etc) are regarding Rolan's & co
deaths, it is just a drop in the ocean, for me. (Although the "Well the
man was dead and a woman had a right to keep her secrets if she
wanted." points to scenario b, I think: Guilty because of her
'relationship' with Rolan.

And I felt it was the most disturbing thing I read in the entire
series, (the only thing actually) and I am glad that I am not the only
one who feels that way. (You mention *if* that is what happened, of
course, but since that IS what happened, maybe I am not the only one
overreacting.)

But I would not question RJ morality over it. Just his 'reasonabless'.
He obviously wanted to wrap up the Faile/shaido plot, and those 3 were
'expendable'. I have no problem with them dying. But not like 'that'.
Especially when we have pages and pages of Rand's remorse & guilt for
the women he has 'killed'. (Get over it Rand! and he didn't even kill
them in the first place!). But, I am left with questions like "Is Faile
considered one of the good guys?" or one of that bad guys? By RJ I
mean, since what I think doesn't matter. I felt that scene was not
'reasonable'. (apart from being sad of course, but sad things of course
can happen in the series)

I won't harp about it anymore, since I know most people feel
differently, and it is just not that an important point. Yes sad, but
not really significant in the bigger scheme of things, Perrin was
clueless, Faile can have excuses, she shows? 'some' remorse afterwards,
case slosed.

[Oliver Daniels]

I've figured it out Ionna. You're a girl and no more than 20. Tell me
I'm wrong.

Oliver

[Andrew]

First time poster, long time lurker.

There is a simple solution as to what happened in this scene. From
Perrion's POV, he sees 3 Aiel (as somebody previously pointed out), he
doesn't know that they are the three Brotherless who rescued Faile &
friends. What Perrin sees, is Aiel grabing Faile. He has no reason to
think that any of the Aeil in the Shaido camp are anything but
unfriendly to Faile. This means, in Perrin's mind, that they are the
enemy.

When Perrin starts to attack, Rolan goes after Perrin, not knowing who
he is. Faile screams; Rolan pauses because he has no desire to attack
Faile's husband. Perrin, on the otherhand, "swings first and asks
questions later." First swing is a killing blow.

For whatever reason (captor's guilt, some other psychological reason),
she is almost relieved that Rolan is dead. In her mind, she feels that
even thinking of "hooking up" with Rolan (even as a means of escape)
would dishonor Perrin. Moreover, Perrin could not understand (so she
thinks) and thus, Rolan's death will keep all events in Sahido camp a
secret.

With respect to the death of Kinhuin, Faile makes a pre-emptive strike.
He would attack Perrin now that Perrin has killed Rolan. Faile
strikes a fatal blow. With respect to death of the Jhoradin, Lacile
kills him in the same vein: as a premptive strike (She is one of the
Che Faile (sp?)).

Why she is crying is easy to understand. Remeber she actually was
bedding Jhoradin. Thus, she is morning the death of her lover. The
way Perrin sees it, she is crying because killing is not as easy the
stories make it out (remember Perrin's original views of Che Faile.

Well that is my interpretation.

Flame away.

-- Andrew Berenson

Post by Oliver Daniels
I've figured it out Ionna. You're a girl and no more than 20. Tell me
I'm wrong.
Oliver

[ioanna]

Fresh spoiler space again
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Post by Andrew
First time poster, long time lurker.

Hi Andrew :)

Post by Andrew
There is a simple solution as to what happened in this scene.

<snip>

I also felt that what happened is very simple, and straigtforward. I
agree with everything that you wrote. I just didn't like it/ approve of
it :) ie What it means for the characters that participated in it, that
is (ie Faile, and also Lacile since you aslo understood that she was
the one to kill Jhoradin).

Post by Andrew
Why she is crying is easy to understand. Remeber she actually was
bedding Jhoradin. Thus, she is morning the death of her lover. The
way Perrin sees it, she is crying because killing is not as easy the
stories make it out (remember Perrin's original views of Che Faile.
Well that is my interpretation.

I seem to remember the Lacile/Jhoradin connection now that you mention
it. I didn't mention it in my earlier post because I couldn't find it
in the re-reread I did prior to posting my previous msg. But indeed
there it is. Clueless Perrin could have been right in his assumption.
Crying for killing one of the enemy (someone unknown). But killing your
lover and rescuer ? I wanted more remorse from Lacile as well. This is
minor with Tarmon Gaidon approaching, but when I have endured pages &
pages of Rands endless guilt (which is 'groundless') couldn't 1 page be
spared for Lacile ? And 2 for Faile (plus 1 for Perrin when he is
told?) When we have endured pages and pages of 'Faile plot thread'
insignificant details. I just considered it a matter of priorities. My
priorities where different than the author's it seems. :)

But I agree 100% with your interpretation. And also that Faile seems
overal relieved that Rolan is dead. He was a problem. Now he is no
more. Problem solved.

[ioanna]

Post by ioanna
Fresh spoiler space again
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Post by Andrew
There is a simple solution as to what happened in this scene.

<snip>
I also felt that what happened is very simple, and straigtforward. I
agree with everything that you wrote. I just didn't like it/ approve of
it :) ie What it means for the characters that participated in it, that
is (ie Faile, and also Lacile since you aslo understood that she was
the one to kill Jhoradin).

Just re-read this! I meant I did not approve/like of what happened.
Not of what you wrote of course! You were just summarising the facts,
and it is exactly as you said. I just meant I didn't like *what hapened
in that scene*. Sorry if what I wrote before is somewhat ambiguous.
Re-reading it I was horrified to see that it could be taken to mean
that I didn't like/approve what you wrote. I did not mean that at all !
Sorry for being careless. :)

[Karan Juneja]

Post by Andrew
First time poster, long time lurker.

[snip]

Post by Andrew
Why she is crying is easy to understand. Remeber she actually was
bedding Jhoradin. Thus, she is morning the death of her lover. The
way Perrin sees it, she is crying because killing is not as easy the
stories make it out (remember Perrin's original views of Che Faile.

Huh buh who what where. Where is that said?

[ioanna]

Post by Karan Juneja

Post by Andrew
First time poster, long time lurker.

[snip]

Post by Andrew
Why she is crying is easy to understand. Remeber she actually was
bedding Jhoradin. Thus, she is morning the death of her lover. The
way Perrin sees it, she is crying because killing is not as easy the
stories make it out (remember Perrin's original views of Che Faile.

Huh buh who what where. Where is that said?
--
KJ

Spoiler space just in case.
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Where was said what?

That Lacile killed Jhoradin ? it was not said. He dies killed by
someone of the 'rescued' and Lacile (the one next to him) was crying
afterwards. 1+1 =2, but it is not said explicitly. But we are to
understand so. He didn't die by mysterious forces (but of "two wooden
knife hilts sticking out of his back"). Someone stabbed him. More
likely Lacile rather than say Alliandre ... Plus, she was closer. Plus,
she was crying afterwards. (for killing 'someone' Perrin thought)
[chapter "outside the gates"]

That Lacile was bedding Jhoradin ? in Chapter 5 "Something strange"
(page 178, but I mine is the Orbit hardback). Last 1.5 page of that
chapter if that is any help. When Rolan talks with Faile, and mentions
about Jhoradin taking Lacile to the three fold land and convince her to
make a bridal wreath to lay at his feet .. (even though she is a
treekiller), since lacile had found her own protector by climbing into
the blankets of the Mera'din who had made her gai'shain .. etc.

I hope that helps.

[Karan Juneja]

Post by ioanna

Post by Karan Juneja

Post by Andrew
First time poster, long time lurker.

[snip]

Post by Andrew
Why she is crying is easy to understand. Remeber she actually was
bedding Jhoradin. Thus, she is morning the death of her lover. The
way Perrin sees it, she is crying because killing is not as easy the
stories make it out (remember Perrin's original views of Che Faile.

Huh buh who what where. Where is that said?
--
KJ

Spoiler space just in case.
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Where was said what?

[snip]

Post by ioanna
That Lacile was bedding Jhoradin ? in Chapter 5 "Something strange"
(page 178, but I mine is the Orbit hardback). Last 1.5 page of that
chapter if that is any help. When Rolan talks with Faile, and mentions
about Jhoradin taking Lacile to the three fold land and convince her to
make a bridal wreath to lay at his feet .. (even though she is a
treekiller), since lacile had found her own protector by climbing into
the blankets of the Mera'din who had made her gai'shain .. etc.
I hope that helps.

Ah. For some reason I read the earlier post as saying "Faile sleeping
with Jhoradin", which is where my confusion sprang from. Never mind me.

[ioanna]

Post by Oliver Daniels
I've figured it out Ionna. You're a girl and no more than 20. Tell me
I'm wrong.
Oliver

Hello Oliver,

You are wrong. (That's is what you wanted me to tell you, right ? :)

You can figure out from my name that I am female, so that part is
correct. The rest is not.

And I see 15 was raised to 20 now, but it is not enough unfortunately.
:)

But frankly I don't understand your comments regarding your tyring to
'guess' my sex, age, and where I am from, based on what I write. What
people write, statistically is not a predictor for information like
what you mention. Maybe in some cases regarding age, if they are very
young. Hmmm... I see. :) Also, maybe native language could be guessed
in some cases. (But you can't guess mine, I bet. Especially considering
your initial 'guess' of my being American.)

To be honest I did not really undestand your comments to my post. But
you are replying to me (you are addressing yourself to me, I guess with
the 'Ionna' part). Maybe you implicitly and indirectly mean that I
sound immature ? Ok, fair enough. I just don't think it an important
enough issue for you to go to the trouble to point it out (to me and
everyone else). Plus maybe I am wrong and you point is something else
entirely. Equally unflattering I am sure, but what can I do? :) We are
judged by what we write. (And you can go ahead and do your worst, since
whatever I write, it seems I am giving you fresh ammunition :).

Anyway it is my turn. :) Since posting in this group seems to be
working differently that I thought. :) You are male, over 20, from an
English speaking country. Not US though, I think (see the 'American'
comment for me). Hmm let me guess. UK maybe? Yes, that would be my
guess. And you don't need to tell me whether I am right or wrong,
because it doesn't matter. As it doesn't matter how old I am, where I
am from, and whether I am a girl or a boy. At least I think it doesn't
(when this group is about "Books by author Robert Jordan"). If you are
of a different opinion, you can of course say so. And, you at least,
can be certain that due consideration will be given to anything you
deign to say.

Brest Regards,
Ioanna

PS. Sorry about my jibe, regarding your addressing your reply to me by
talking to "Ionna", but you missed an "a" and I couldn't resist the
opportunity to point it out you. :) (Since you are so helpful pointing
things out to me :) ) But you had gotten it correctly the first time
round (back when I was just 15 :) ). Anyway, it is like Joanna, but in
my language there is no "J". Remember Indiana Jones who should step on
the stones with the letters for "Jehoba" on them, and he was almost
killed on his first step because J was wrong ? (It was with an "I" back
then when the lethal trap was constructed, or so the script of that
movie said). Similar here.

[Ash]

Post by ioanna
Anyway it is my turn. :) Since posting in this group seems to be
working differently that I thought. :) You are male, over 20, from an
English speaking country. Not US though, I think (see the 'American'
comment for me). Hmm let me guess. UK maybe? Yes, that would be my
guess. And you don't need to tell me whether I am right or wrong,
because it doesn't matter. As it doesn't matter how old I am, where I
am from, and whether I am a girl or a boy. At least I think it doesn't
(when this group is about "Books by author Robert Jordan"). If you are
of a different opinion, you can of course say so. And, you at least,
can be certain that due consideration will be given to anything you
deign to say.

I'd say early twenties, US

[Legolas]

Post by Ash
I'd say early twenties, US

No, Greece. Athens, in fact. :)

[Oliver Daniels]

Post by ioanna

Post by Oliver Daniels
I've figured it out Ionna. You're a girl and no more than 20. Tell me
I'm wrong.
Oliver

Hello Oliver,
You are wrong. (That's is what you wanted me to tell you, right ? :)
You can figure out from my name that I am female, so that part is
correct. The rest is not.
And I see 15 was raised to 20 now, but it is not enough unfortunately.
:)
But frankly I don't understand your comments regarding your tyring to
'guess' my sex, age, and where I am from, based on what I write. What
people write, statistically is not a predictor for information like
what you mention. Maybe in some cases regarding age, if they are very
young. Hmmm... I see. :) Also, maybe native language could be guessed
in some cases. (But you can't guess mine, I bet. Especially considering
your initial 'guess' of my being American.)
To be honest I did not really undestand your comments to my post. But
you are replying to me (you are addressing yourself to me, I guess with
the 'Ionna' part). Maybe you implicitly and indirectly mean that I
sound immature ? Ok, fair enough. I just don't think it an important
enough issue for you to go to the trouble to point it out (to me and
everyone else). Plus maybe I am wrong and you point is something else
entirely. Equally unflattering I am sure, but what can I do? :) We are
judged by what we write. (And you can go ahead and do your worst, since
whatever I write, it seems I am giving you fresh ammunition :).
Anyway it is my turn. :) Since posting in this group seems to be
working differently that I thought. :) You are male, over 20, from an
English speaking country. Not US though, I think (see the 'American'
comment for me). Hmm let me guess. UK maybe? Yes, that would be my
guess. And you don't need to tell me whether I am right or wrong,
because it doesn't matter. As it doesn't matter how old I am, where I
am from, and whether I am a girl or a boy. At least I think it doesn't
(when this group is about "Books by author Robert Jordan"). If you are
of a different opinion, you can of course say so. And, you at least,
can be certain that due consideration will be given to anything you
deign to say.
Brest Regards,
Ioanna
PS. Sorry about my jibe, regarding your addressing your reply to me by
talking to "Ionna", but you missed an "a" and I couldn't resist the
opportunity to point it out you. :) (Since you are so helpful pointing
things out to me :) ) But you had gotten it correctly the first time
round (back when I was just 15 :) ). Anyway, it is like Joanna, but in
my language there is no "J". Remember Indiana Jones who should step on
the stones with the letters for "Jehoba" on them, and he was almost
killed on his first step because J was wrong ? (It was with an "I" back
then when the lethal trap was constructed, or so the script of that
movie said). Similar here.

Greek. Less than 30. Definitely. My initial guess was a sly dig at some
American friends of mine...

I'm just winding you up Ioanna. Of course none of that matters in the
slightest. Your English is good btw. Yes I'm from England. And I stand
firmly by my criticism of your other post. Way too many exclamation
marks. Not enough people make a proper effort with their grammar etc in
this group.

As for the ways people write - it might not tell us anything
'statistically' but it reveals a lot about character. E.g. Chapman -
waspish/peevish/downright scary. Aaron - bullish. I could go on. And
the guesses I was making about you were simply based on how *you*
write. I like to think I've been gently 'singeing' you. The guys
mentioned above are the real flamers, so watch out for them ;-)

Oliver

P.S. Don't apologise about the jibe - it was a good one and well
deserved.

[ioanna]

Hello again Oliver :)

I am not sure if I was supposed to reply (since this is out of topic of
the thread, so apologies to everyone) but I thought I should at least
give feedback to your latest (and highest so far, it seems I am making
some kind of progress:) ) age 'guess' :), and then of course once I
start writing ...

So here goes...

Post by Oliver Daniels
Greek. Less than 30. Definitely.

You'd better not be very "definate" for the "less than 30" bit... :)

Post by Oliver Daniels
I'm just winding you up Ioanna.

Oh. That was what you were doing ? :) OK, then. Be my guest, and I
won't take you amiss from now on, if you again feel inclined to do so
in the future, that is.. Honestly though, thanks for clarifing it.

Post by Oliver Daniels
Yes I'm from England.

But no points awarded for 'guessing' correctly from this end, I see :)

Post by Oliver Daniels
And I stand
firmly by my criticism of your other post. Way too many exclamation
marks.

Fair enough. But, I cut down on the amount of exclamation marks
thereafter, (they actually disappeared) and what is the thanks I get ?
:) (Your 'figuring out' that I am a girl and no more than 20.) And I am
itching to put a couple of exclamation marks here, but I (wisely)
refrain. :)

Post by Oliver Daniels
Not enough people make a proper effort with their grammar etc in
this group.

Ouch.. That hurt. :) And I 'thought' I did make a proper effort. Maybe
you took exception more to the content and my style of writing ? That
is understandable (and I don't hold it against you. I would actually
agree with you more or less.) But grammar (and syntax as well) is
something different, and actually easy to get correct with a small
amount of effort. Something could be 'perfect' (ie error-free, or
almost) grammatically and difficult/ annoying/ tiring to read
nonetheless. (And I think what I write does fall in this category.
Self-knowledge and all that...)

Post by Oliver Daniels
As for the ways people write - it might not tell us anything
'statistically' but it reveals a lot about character.

Yes, I agree. (and character traits is just another kind of statistic
as well). And in my case you could very legitimately have assumed that
I am someone who exclaims a lot. :) And I think I generally have
trouble ending my phrases with just a period ("."). As you see... It
goes against the grain with me. :)

Post by Oliver Daniels
E.g. Chapman -
waspish/peevish/downright scary. Aaron - bullish. I could go on. And
the guesses I was making about you were simply based on how *you*
write. I like to think I've been gently 'singeing' you.

What would your 'ungently' version be then ? :) Rhetorical question
since I'd much rather not find out, please. :)

Post by Oliver Daniels
The guys
mentioned above are the real flamers, so watch out for them ;-)

Oh. Thanks for the warning. :) I will be watching out for them, as well
as you, then. :) At least I will 'watch out for you' until I decide
that you are indeed as harmless as you claim... :) (I am not completely
convinced yet. Just a little less afraid than I was. You *did* scare
the hell out of me in the beginning :) )

Best Regards,
Ioanna

[Ranger Fan]

Post by ioanna
Fresh spoiler space
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Post by Bill E. Brooks
I think we are past the point where spoiler space is required,
but until somebody tells me differently, I'll keep doing it.

Post by David Wren-Hardin
Perrin striking down Faile's
Aiel friend (whose name escapes me) was my Gasp moment.

Many people have had a similar reaction on this newsgroup. Maybe I am
in denial, but I have refused to believe this scene is what it seems.
The lesser reason is that if this scene is what it seems, it would be so
deeply disturbing to me, more so than any in the entire series, that
it would really make me question RJ's morality. The greater reason

<snip Rolan-Nadric comparison>
I am not certain if you meant to say that it was Nadric and not Rolan
killed by Perrin ? It seemed to me that is what you meant, but I am not
certain I understood correctly ?
If that is the case (I may have misunderstood you though), I am sorry,
but I think you are in denial, as you mentioned. Your post didn't even
give me the hope, that "hey, maybe I misunderstood and Rolan wasn't
killed after all", because I was initially so incredulous when reading
this scene, that I read it and re-read it, also going backwards and
forwards to crosscheck who is who, to make certain, and unfortunately
there is no room for any other interpretation. "Interpretation' is not
needed anyway, as the facts are VERY clear in the first place. (I just
found them so disturbing, I could not credit my eyes while first
reading that scene).
It is very clear that there are 3 Aiel (Meradin and not 'real' Shaido,
but perrin does not know that) with Faile & co after they rescued them,
Rolan (has faile by the arm), Jhoradin (has Lacile by the arm) and
Kinhuin.
Perrin kills Rolan ("GASP!", for me at least)
It isn't clear who kills the other two. Two of the rescued kill the
remaining two of their rescuers though (Gasp again!)
It seems? that the 2 murderers (yes, murderers) are Faile herself (who
stabs Kinhuin -with the green eyes- in the back, and as he dies he
looks back over his shoulder at her in surpise, probalby thinking "Huh?
but I just helped rescue you..") and Lacile who killes Jhoradin (he was
next to her). She cries afterward and Perrin thinks it is because she
killed someone. (But Perin could be wrong). The point is that whoever
did the other 2, they were 2 of the 'just rescued' people (We don't
know who exactly though. Probably Faile and Lacile, but that is not
clear).
I confess I was deeply disturbed by this scene. It is not that good
guys can not die (eg Herid Fel was killed by a Gholam? and there are
countless other examples.) But good guys killed by 'good' guys? (and
not darkfriends, shadospawn or 'plain' bad guys?) AND good guys killed
by 'good' guys *they had just rescued* ? And even so, since accidents
and misunderstadnings do happen, no remorse afterwards? This final
point is what disturbed me the most. Say Faile and Lacile knew that now
that Perrin found them the 3 had to die (since perrin attacked them.)
But at least let them show profound remorse, guilt, unhapiness
afterwards. For an unfair fight (Rolan, poor guy, hesitated in
defending himself when he heard Faile call his attacker 'Perrin') and
the other 2 were murdered in cold blood. (stabbed in the back by people
they did not consider enemies).
Anyway I am afraid there is no way we can have Nadric in place of Rolan
unfortunately. I wish there was a way, but it is just wishful thinking.
And what about the other 2 dead meradin?

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Faile's reaction to this scene was decidedly understated (as others
have noted). She made little effort to convince Perrin to hold back,
and didn't tell Perrin that he had hurt a good man.
"The dull, aching scent of sadness and the greasy aroma of guilt.
Shame, like thousands of hair-fine needles pricking."
Likely she was feeling guilt and shame because of Rolan. But that does
not mean those feelings were induced by the recently deceased big
Shaido. If the big Shaido was Nadric, she'd still have been feeling
guilty and shameful about her indescretions with Rolan.

I have mentioned again how disturbed I was at this scene, especially at
Faile's reaction. Perrin acted under a misapprehension (he thought
these were enemies about to harm Faile. Although there was no evidence
of that, they were just walking together).

He sees Rolan with his fist around her arm, and she looked like she'd
been rolled in the dirt - Perrin may very well have thought she had
been assaulted.

Post by ioanna
But Faile ? And I was
pointed to the passage you quote above, and it was mentioned that Faile
shows regret for the death of Rolan. And I thought yes, but not nearly
enough, under the circumstances. (just in my opinion). But now that I
read it again more carefuly, it may not show even that, i think.
Is she feeling sadness, guilt and shame because of Rolan's death? (at
the hands of Perrin, after he had rescued her again and she did nothing
to stop it - and maybe because she killed Kinhuin herself)

I don't see how she could have done anything to stop it - she shouts
"Perrin!" - Rolan hesitates, and Perrin smashes his head. Even is she
had yelled "NO!!!!" I think it would have been too late to stop the
attack.

Faile killed Kinhuin when he stepped in, spears ready, to attack
Perrin. I think she acted almost automatically, to defend her
husband.

Post by ioanna
Or is she feeling sadness, guilt and shame because of her
'relationship' with Rolan ? (Because she is married to Perrin, but she
also liked Rolan and was flaterred by his interest.)

I believe she felt guilty about the way she was reacting to his
interest.

Post by ioanna
Because if it is the 2nd case (and yes, as you say, it wouldn't matter
who was killed Rolan or Nadric, in that case) then she does not show
even that little remorse for these deaths. (Because the remorse is for
her 'relationship' with Rolan -while he was alive of course - and not
for what just happened (their 3 meradin rescuers dead).
Even if her feelings (sadness guilt etc) are regarding Rolan's & co
deaths, it is just a drop in the ocean, for me. (Although the "Well the
man was dead and a woman had a right to keep her secrets if she
wanted." points to scenario b, I think: Guilty because of her
'relationship' with Rolan.
And I felt it was the most disturbing thing I read in the entire
series, (the only thing actually) and I am glad that I am not the only
one who feels that way. (You mention *if* that is what happened, of
course, but since that IS what happened, maybe I am not the only one
overreacting.)
But I would not question RJ morality over it. Just his 'reasonabless'.
He obviously wanted to wrap up the Faile/shaido plot, and those 3 were
'expendable'. I have no problem with them dying. But not like 'that'.
Especially when we have pages and pages of Rand's remorse & guilt for
the women he has 'killed'. (Get over it Rand! and he didn't even kill
them in the first place!). But, I am left with questions like "Is Faile
considered one of the good guys?" or one of that bad guys? By RJ I
mean, since what I think doesn't matter. I felt that scene was not
'reasonable'. (apart from being sad of course, but sad things of course
can happen in the series)
I won't harp about it anymore, since I know most people feel
differently, and it is just not that an important point. Yes sad, but
not really significant in the bigger scheme of things, Perrin was
clueless, Faile can have excuses, she shows? 'some' remorse afterwards,
case slosed.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by ioanna
Fresh spoiler space
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.
.
.
.
I am not certain if you meant to say that it was Nadric and not Rolan
killed by Perrin ? It seemed to me that is what you meant, but I am not
certain I understood correctly ?

Yes.

Post by ioanna
If that is the case (I may have misunderstood you though), I am sorry,
but I think you are in denial, as you mentioned.

I wouldn't have minded if you had disagreed on this.

Post by ioanna
Your post didn't even
give me the hope, that "hey, maybe I misunderstood and Rolan wasn't
killed after all", because I was initially so incredulous when reading
this scene, that I read it and re-read it, also going backwards and
forwards to crosscheck who is who, to make certain, and unfortunately
there is no room for any other interpretation. "Interpretation' is not
needed anyway, as the facts are VERY clear in the first place. (I just
found them so disturbing, I could not credit my eyes while first
reading that scene).

I find it interesting that you too have attempted to reinterpret this
scene.

Post by ioanna
It is very clear that there are 3 Aiel (Meradin and not 'real' Shaido,
but perrin does not know that) with Faile & co after they rescued them,
Rolan (has faile by the arm), Jhoradin (has Lacile by the arm) and
Kinhuin.
Perrin kills Rolan ("GASP!", for me at least)
It isn't clear who kills the other two. Two of the rescued kill the
remaining two of their rescuers though (Gasp again!)

Presumably, if the situation is as it appears on the surface, Lacile
killed Jhoradin.

Post by ioanna
It seems? that the 2 murderers (yes, murderers) are Faile herself (who
stabs Kinhuin -with the green eyes- in the back, and as he dies he
looks back over his shoulder at her in surpise, probalby thinking "Huh?
but I just helped rescue you..") and Lacile who killes Jhoradin (he was
next to her). She cries afterward and Perrin thinks it is because she
killed someone. (But Perin could be wrong). The point is that whoever
did the other 2, they were 2 of the 'just rescued' people (We don't
know who exactly though. Probably Faile and Lacile, but that is not
clear).

I was aware of the 3 Aiel problem, but I was hoping to dismiss it as
an odd trio, or a numerical coincidence. However, the green eyes
of Kinhuin and the second Aiel would be a large coincidence indeed.

Post by ioanna
I confess I was deeply disturbed by this scene. It is not that good
guys can not die (eg Herid Fel was killed by a Gholam? and there are
countless other examples.) But good guys killed by 'good' guys? (and
not darkfriends, shadospawn or 'plain' bad guys?) AND good guys killed
by 'good' guys *they had just rescued* ? And even so, since accidents
and misunderstadnings do happen, no remorse afterwards? This final
point is what disturbed me the most. Say Faile and Lacile knew that now
that Perrin found them the 3 had to die (since perrin attacked them.)
But at least let them show profound remorse, guilt, unhapiness
afterwards.

Well, Lacile showed remorse. Maybe Perrin should divorce Faile and
marry Berelain after all. At least we know that Berelain is human,
even if she is loose.

Post by ioanna
For an unfair fight (Rolan, poor guy, hesitated in
defending himself when he heard Faile call his attacker 'Perrin') and
the other 2 were murdered in cold blood. (stabbed in the back by people
they did not consider enemies).

In cold blood is inappropriate here, because the killers were in a
panic. This should really be called a friendly fire incident, because
the killing started without Perrin knowing who was on what side.

Post by ioanna

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Faile's reaction to this scene was decidedly understated (as others
have noted). She made little effort to convince Perrin to hold back,
and didn't tell Perrin that he had hurt a good man.
"The dull, aching scent of sadness and the greasy aroma of guilt.
Shame, like thousands of hair-fine needles pricking."
Likely she was feeling guilt and shame because of Rolan. But that does
not mean those feelings were induced by the recently deceased big
Shaido. If the big Shaido was Nadric, she'd still have been feeling
guilty and shameful about her indescretions with Rolan.

I have mentioned again how disturbed I was at this scene, especially at
Faile's reaction. Perrin acted under a misapprehension (he thought
these were enemies about to harm Faile. Although there was no evidence
of that, they were just walking together). But Faile ? And I was
pointed to the passage you quote above, and it was mentioned that Faile
shows regret for the death of Rolan. And I thought yes, but not nearly
enough, under the circumstances. (just in my opinion). But now that I
read it again more carefuly, it may not show even that, i think.
Is she feeling sadness, guilt and shame because of Rolan's death? (at
the hands of Perrin, after he had rescued her again and she did nothing
to stop it - and maybe because she killed Kinhuin herself)
Or is she feeling sadness, guilt and shame because of her
'relationship' with Rolan ? (Because she is married to Perrin, but she
also liked Rolan and was flaterred by his interest.)
Because if it is the 2nd case (and yes, as you say, it wouldn't matter
who was killed Rolan or Nadric, in that case) then she does not show
even that little remorse for these deaths. (Because the remorse is for
her 'relationship' with Rolan -while he was alive of course - and not
for what just happened (their 3 meradin rescuers dead).
Even if her feelings (sadness guilt etc) are regarding Rolan's & co
deaths, it is just a drop in the ocean, for me.

Perhaps RJ will revisit this in the next book.

Post by ioanna
(Although the "Well the
man was dead and a woman had a right to keep her secrets if she
wanted." points to scenario b, I think: Guilty because of her
'relationship' with Rolan.

I wouldn't read too much into this, because it was Perrin's feelings,
not Faile's.

Post by ioanna
And I felt it was the most disturbing thing I read in the entire
series, (the only thing actually) and I am glad that I am not the only
one who feels that way. (You mention *if* that is what happened, of
course, but since that IS what happened, maybe I am not the only one
overreacting.)
But I would not question RJ morality over it. Just his 'reasonabless'.
He obviously wanted to wrap up the Faile/shaido plot, and those 3 were
'expendable'. I have no problem with them dying. But not like 'that'.
Especially when we have pages and pages of Rand's remorse & guilt for
the women he has 'killed'. (Get over it Rand! and he didn't even kill
them in the first place!).

The men moan over the deaths of women all the time; maybe the time has
come for RJ to try it with genders reversed.

Post by ioanna
But, I am left with questions like "Is Faile
considered one of the good guys?" or one of that bad guys? By RJ I
mean, since what I think doesn't matter. I felt that scene was not
'reasonable'. (apart from being sad of course, but sad things of course
can happen in the series)

Perhaps RJ simply regards this scene as an unfortunate and tragic
circumstance, where no one was to blame.

-Bill E. Brooks

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by ioanna
Fresh spoiler space
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.
For an unfair fight (Rolan, poor guy, hesitated in
defending himself when he heard Faile call his attacker 'Perrin') and
the other 2 were murdered in cold blood. (stabbed in the back by people
they did not consider enemies).

In cold blood is inappropriate here, because the killers were in a
panic. This should really be called a friendly fire incident, because
the killing started without Perrin knowing who was on what side.

Friendly fire is not the result of panic, but of lack of communication.
Perrin whack-a-moling the Aiel is a case of friendly fire. Stabbing
comrades in the back is closer to murder.

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by ioanna
But, I am left with questions like "Is Faile
considered one of the good guys?" or one of that bad guys? By RJ I
mean, since what I think doesn't matter. I felt that scene was not
'reasonable'. (apart from being sad of course, but sad things of course
can happen in the series)

Perhaps RJ simply regards this scene as an unfortunate and tragic
circumstance, where no one was to blame.

Perrin killing that guy, yes, I see it. The women stabbing the others in
the back without so much as an attempt to stop the whole shebang,
though, no.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by ioanna
Fresh spoiler space
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.
For an unfair fight (Rolan, poor guy, hesitated in
defending himself when he heard Faile call his attacker 'Perrin') and
the other 2 were murdered in cold blood. (stabbed in the back by people
they did not consider enemies).

In cold blood is inappropriate here, because the killers were in a
panic. This should really be called a friendly fire incident, because
the killing started without Perrin knowing who was on what side.

Friendly fire is not the result of panic, but of lack of communication.
Perrin whack-a-moling the Aiel is a case of friendly fire. Stabbing
comrades in the back is closer to murder.

The reason I said the killing of the last two Brotherless was a friendly
fire incident is because there was a panic situation where the killers
were afraid Perrin was going to be killed by friendly fire; therefore,
they killed the Brotherless. If you are arguing they did it to cover
their shame, then yes, that would be murder. You aren't really making
it clear here what reason for killing you are talking about.

-Bill E. Brooks

[zheemnookin]

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by ioanna
Fresh spoiler space
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.
.
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.
.
.
.
.
For an unfair fight (Rolan, poor guy, hesitated in
defending himself when he heard Faile call his attacker 'Perrin') and
the other 2 were murdered in cold blood. (stabbed in the back by people
they did not consider enemies).

In cold blood is inappropriate here, because the killers were in a
panic. This should really be called a friendly fire incident, because
the killing started without Perrin knowing who was on what side.

Friendly fire is not the result of panic, but of lack of communication.
Perrin whack-a-moling the Aiel is a case of friendly fire. Stabbing
comrades in the back is closer to murder.

The reason I said the killing of the last two Brotherless was a friendly
fire incident is because there was a panic situation where the killers
were afraid Perrin was going to be killed by friendly fire; therefore,
they killed the Brotherless. If you are arguing they did it to cover
their shame, then yes, that would be murder. You aren't really making
it clear here what reason for killing you are talking about.

Enh, friendly fire is killing an ally whom you did not recognize as an
ally. That's the miscommunication.

Murder is just an unlawful killing. What the prisoners did, I think,
is definitely not friendly fire -- they knew precisely whom they were
killing. But I don't think it's murder, either, b/c it's probably a
lawful killing justified by self-defense. The prisoners were concerned
that the Aiel would commit "friendly fire" and accidentally kill
Perrin, an ally -- so they offed them.

It's closer to self-defense then either murder or friendly fire, but
closer to murder than friendly fire b/c they certainly knew who they
were killing, and the killing may arguably not be justified.

[zheemnookin]

^ I mean "defense of another," not self-defense

[ioanna]

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[snip]

Post by zheemnookin
Enh, friendly fire is killing an ally whom you did not recognize as an
ally. That's the miscommunication.

So the meradin are allies. (Perrin killing an ally, Rolan, whom he
didn't know that he was an ally).

Post by zheemnookin
Murder is just an unlawful killing. What the prisoners did, I think,
is definitely not friendly fire -- they knew precisely whom they were
killing. But I don't think it's murder, either, b/c it's probably a
lawful killing justified by self-defense. The prisoners were concerned
that the Aiel would commit "friendly fire" and accidentally kill
Perrin, an ally -- so they offed them.

Yes but self-defence (or defense of an ally, as you say) by killing
another ally could not work in practice I think. One would actually do
*nothing* but stay back and watch (since both parties are allies).
Unless they could do something to try and save both of them, that is.

The way you mention the defence of an ally, could go both ways if you
think about it. (Perrin is an ally. The Rolan-Jhoradin-Kinhuin set are
also allies.) Lacile could have killed Perrin (an ally) to save another
ally (Jhoradin). ie To use your phrase above, "The prisoners were
concerned that Perrin would commit "friendly fire" and accidentally
kill Rolan, an ally - so they offed him. (Perrin)". That didn't happen
of course, nor could it have happened (probably because Perrin is 'more
of an ally' that the others. So the prisoners take a hand so that their
'favourite ally' (Perrin) will win by sacrificing the 'lesser allies'.

I guess what I mean is that Perrin on one hand, and the 3 Aiel on the
other, are NOT both allies. (that would mean equality between them, and
we could swap sbuject and object in your phrase above). And if they
were, the 'rescued' would do nothing (or better yet try to
explain/diffuse the situation if they could).

As I see it, Faile & co either did not consider the 3 as allies in the
first place (which makes them ungrateful), or they did consider them as
such but killed them nonetheless* (which makes them treatorous). Take
your pick.

*I mean without trying any 'life-preserving' alternatives first. If
they had tried and failed, the practical result would be the same, but
they would at least have a clear conscience.

[ioanna]

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Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by ioanna
Your post didn't even
give me the hope, that "hey, maybe I misunderstood and Rolan wasn't
killed after all", because I was initially so incredulous when reading
this scene, that I read it and re-read it, also going backwards and
forwards to crosscheck who is who, to make certain, and unfortunately
there is no room for any other interpretation. "Interpretation' is not
needed anyway, as the facts are VERY clear in the first place. (I just
found them so disturbing, I could not credit my eyes while first
reading that scene).

I find it interesting that you too have attempted to reinterpret this
scene.

Yes, and I found it interesting that you tried to interpret it
differently as well.

However in my case I gave up very quickly because I could find no
loophole. And after realising there could be no alternative
interpetations, it took me some time to 'digest' it.

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Perhaps RJ will revisit this in the next book.

Actually I franky doubt it. It is over and done with, and not so
important. (I mean plot-wise). Anyway it is just one more book, and we
have Tarmon Gaidon etc. I wonder how RJ will fit many other much more
important (plot-wise) stuff, and much of that will be left out. So
definately no room for revisiting the 3 meradin situation I think. We
may barely get a mention of Shaido anyway. Just Rand, say, saying "So,
many Shaido killed and the rest went back to the Waste? Great. So that
problem is solved. Let's get on with whatever else I need to do now..."

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Perhaps RJ simply regards this scene as an unfortunate and tragic
circumstance, where no one was to blame.

Yes, that is my impression as well. That is another reason why it will
definately not be revisted in the next (and last) book, I think.

[ireadRJordan]

To me, I was distraught at this scene. RJ could have wrote this scene
however he wanted. Looking at it from the perspective as it happens is
somewhat irrelevant when compared to that. I.E. If RJ wanted to keep
Rolan and co. alive, he could have. So my question to RJ is why he
killed them in the way that he did. There are about 1000 different ways
that it could have played out and all 100 times better than seeing
Faile's rescuer killed in such a dishonorable way. How could a writer
put words on paper that the rescued just killed their rescuers. Please
point me to one book where that happens? Its like Gandalf killing the
eagle after it just rescued him from Saroman.

In a writing sense, this is very ridiculous and Poorly written, with a
capital P. I understand they were an un-necessary plotline that needed
to be offed quickly, but in this manner is ridiculous.

Then RJ goes even worse and doesn't even write in some kind of remorse,
backlash, or some kind of explenation for it. In less than 3 long
sentences Rj moves on. 3 books of Blathering on about Rolan and his
idiotic persona and he's gone within a few sentences. Is RJ kidding?

Others may have gotten mad or upset. I literally threw the book across
the room after reading it. I am actually going to stop writing about it
right now before my keyboard goes flying across the room as well. In
conclusion, this was a poorly written scene and a terrible way to wrap
up a plot that has literally been going on for 8 years. Maybe only a
few days in Randland time but the capture happened way back in POD
and....... Ahhhhhhhhhh!!! I can't write about it anymore.

[ioanna]

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Post by ireadRJordan
To me, I was distraught at this scene. RJ could have wrote this scene
however he wanted. Looking at it from the perspective as it happens is
somewhat irrelevant when compared to that. I.E. If RJ wanted to keep
Rolan and co. alive, he could have. So my question to RJ is why he
killed them in the way that he did. There are about 1000 different ways
that it could have played out and all 100 times better than seeing
Faile's rescuer killed in such a dishonorable way. How could a writer
put words on paper that the rescued just killed their rescuers. Please
point me to one book where that happens? Its like Gandalf killing the
eagle after it just rescued him from Saroman.

Point you to one book ? KoD. :) There could be others of course but I
am unaware of them. And if we take out the rescued/rescuers part and
just leave it more generaly "someone kills a person(s) who had been
nice, frienldy, helpful etc to them" I am sure there are are may other
examples in the WoT series itself. But those 'someones' were forsaken,
BA, darkfriends, plain bad guys etc. I guess you forgot to specify that
you were referring to 'one of the good guys' acting like that. My
slight 'difference of opinion' with the author in this case, is just
that he is saying: "Faile let Rolan die, killed Kinhuin, and that is
not big enough of a deal to feel resmorse over it", and "Oh, yes. Faile
is one of the good guys". Well for me, it is "either - or". Can't have
it both ways. (Just in my opinion. I accept the fact that other people
feel differently about it, and that those two aspects can be reconciled
to some extent).

And I think you've hit the nail right on its head. It was
*dishonorable*.

Post by ireadRJordan
In a writing sense, this is very ridiculous and Poorly written, with a
capital P. I understand they were an un-necessary plotline that needed
to be offed quickly, but in this manner is ridiculous.

I don't think it 'poorly written'. (or poor 'in a writing sense'). That
would refer to the writing style etc. The problem for me (and for you I
think) is the plot itself (the 'manner' of offing them quickly) and not
the *way it was written*. You don't mean that if the *facts* of Faile &
co not trying to stop Perrin, then kill the other two, then show no
remorse afterwards etc, were written 'differently', then maybe you
would not have minded ? For me, "That scene could not have been written
in any *possible* way that would have tempted me to accept it". :)

Post by ireadRJordan
Others may have gotten mad or upset. I literally threw the book across
the room after reading it. I am actually going to stop writing about it
right now before my keyboard goes flying across the room as well. In
conclusion, this was a poorly written scene and a terrible way to wrap
up a plot that has literally been going on for 8 years. Maybe only a
few days in Randland time but the capture happened way back in POD
and....... Ahhhhhhhhhh!!! I can't write about it anymore.

I feel for you. But try to calm down. I managed it. Took me some time
and lot of effort though. :) Now I have progressed from the
Aaaaaahhhh!!! stage, to the Bah! stage.

[dwn]

Post by ireadRJordan
To me, I was distraught at this scene. RJ could have wrote this scene
however he wanted. Looking at it from the perspective as it happens is
somewhat irrelevant when compared to that. I.E. If RJ wanted to keep
Rolan and co. alive, he could have. So my question to RJ is why he
killed them in the way that he did. There are about 1000 different ways
that it could have played out and all 100 times better than seeing
Faile's rescuer killed in such a dishonorable way. How could a writer
put words on paper that the rescued just killed their rescuers. Please
point me to one book where that happens? Its like Gandalf killing the
eagle after it just rescued him from Saroman.
In a writing sense, this is very ridiculous and Poorly written, with a
capital P. I understand they were an un-necessary plotline that needed
to be offed quickly, but in this manner is ridiculous.

I thought it felt fairly realistic. It was supposed to be a tragic
situation and if you feel bad about it, then RJ succeeded in writing
the scene.

Post by ireadRJordan
Then RJ goes even worse and doesn't even write in some kind of remorse,
backlash, or some kind of explenation for it. In less than 3 long
sentences Rj moves on. 3 books of Blathering on about Rolan and his
idiotic persona and he's gone within a few sentences. Is RJ kidding?

They're in the middle of a battlefield. I'm sure Faile would like to
spend a few hours feeling guilty, but others are depending on her for
their lives. Throughout the series there has been the subtext that
"good" rulers put aside their personal wants and feelings in order to
do their duty. Faile and the others will likely feel guilt and remorse
for a long time, but in private and when doing so doesn't interfere
with their obligations.

Post by ireadRJordan
Others may have gotten mad or upset. I literally threw the book across
the room after reading it. I am actually going to stop writing about it
right now before my keyboard goes flying across the room as well. In
conclusion, this was a poorly written scene and a terrible way to wrap
up a plot that has literally been going on for 8 years. Maybe only a
few days in Randland time but the capture happened way back in POD
and....... Ahhhhhhhhhh!!! I can't write about it anymore.

Well, as I said above, the scene was supposed to be disturbing.

Also, while this plot may have taken 8 years and several books to
complete, if you go back and read the chapters only dealing with this
plot, it really only takes a couple hours to get through it (same with
all the other plotlines, actually). The main reason that the past few
books have felt slow is that they are shorter than TFOH and LOC (by a
couple hundred pages) and are being released less frequently. The
first six books were released almost yearly where the last 5 have been
every 2 - 2.5 years. Most importantly, the early books typically have
1-3 major plotlines while the later books have 3-5 major plotlines.
Keeping these things in mind, it makes perfect sense why the pacing
seems so slow over the past few years.

--dwn

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 8 Nov 2005 13:11:08 -0800 - there was
this guy, or something, called "ioanna" <***@gmail.com>, and
they made us all feel better by saying the following stuff:

Just dropping in on this thread at random, and having a quick boogle.





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(it's like boggling, but you do it on the net)

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<spoiler space>

Post by ioanna
However in my case I gave up very quickly because I could find no
loophole. And after realising there could be no alternative
interpetations, it took me some time to 'digest' it.

What's to digest?

Perrin was in a battle rage, the camp was full of Shaido who kidnapped
his wife, he's killed a dozen of them, he only cares about getting to
Faile, this giant motherfucker is in his way, he's standing next to
Faile and she seems to be hurt, the guy looks like he's guarding
prisoners or whatever, OF COURSE Perrin is going to bloody kill him.

And frankly, I was glad when it happened. The guy was a dickhead. The
only bummer was that Faile didn't accidentally brutally get her head
cut off in what Mister Pratchett refers to as "friendly stab."





C&J

[ioanna]

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Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by ioanna
However in my case I gave up very quickly because I could find no
loophole. And after realising there could be no alternative
interpetations, it took me some time to 'digest' it.

What's to digest?
Perrin was in a battle rage, the camp was full of Shaido who kidnapped
his wife, he's killed a dozen of them, he only cares about getting to
Faile, this giant motherfucker is in his way, he's standing next to
Faile and she seems to be hurt, the guy looks like he's guarding
prisoners or whatever, OF COURSE Perrin is going to bloody kill him.

It is quite reasonalbe and understandable that, at first sight at
least, Perrin would regard the 3 'escorting' Faile & co as enemies.

But regarding my 'digestion trouble', I was referring more to what
happened (or did not happen) *after* Perrin killed Rolan. And how the
other 2 were 'offed'.

Post by Chucky & Janica
And frankly, I was glad when it happened. The guy was a dickhead.

I did not like him at all either (he had really bad taste :) - in women
I mean). If he had died in some other way (or proper remorse was shown
after his death at perrin's hands) I would have thought "good riddance"
and that would be it.

Post by Chucky & Janica
The
only bummer was that Faile didn't accidentally brutally get her head
cut off in what Mister Pratchett refers to as "friendly stab."

Now *that* is a great idea! Well, I am not sure what *exactly* Mr
Pratchett and 'friendly stab' refer to, but I get the point that really
*matters*: Faile dead! :) I will second that wholeheartedly ! Say, for
example, Faile caught in the crossfire between Rolan & Perrin. But on
the other hand ... Wait! I am afraid you have not thought this through.
(I mean its *implications*) We would have to pay too dear a price if
that fervent wish had come to pass. Imagine Perrin's despair, guilt,
remorse, anger, frustration etc (the list is endless) afterwards. He
was unbearable while Faile was *just* a captive in enemies' hands. (and
his feelings were endlessly dwelled upon for 3 books!) Imagine if she
was dead, and Perrin himself responsible for it (even indirectly) !
What his behaviour would be like ?! (My imagination buckles under that
strain!) And of course we would have to endure endless analyses of it!
(Just so, that it is certain *we get the point* that he is 'upset'.)
And we would not even need to *guess* what happens in the next book.
The 12th and final book of the WoT series would consist of the phrase:

"Faile! Faile was all that mattered!"

(and its variations, with which we are more than familiar by now)
repeated over and over, for 700 pages. White Tower? Seanchean ?
Forsaken ? Tarmon Gaidon ? Nah! Those are just unimportant details,
because "*Faile* is all that matters!"

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 10 Nov 2005 11:05:36 -0800 - there was

Post by ioanna
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Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by ioanna
However in my case I gave up very quickly because I could find no
loophole. And after realising there could be no alternative
interpetations, it took me some time to 'digest' it.

What's to digest?
Perrin was in a battle rage, the camp was full of Shaido who kidnapped
his wife, he's killed a dozen of them, he only cares about getting to
Faile, this giant motherfucker is in his way, he's standing next to
Faile and she seems to be hurt, the guy looks like he's guarding
prisoners or whatever, OF COURSE Perrin is going to bloody kill him.

It is quite reasonalbe and understandable that, at first sight at
least, Perrin would regard the 3 'escorting' Faile & co as enemies.

*nod*

Post by ioanna
But regarding my 'digestion trouble', I was referring more to what
happened (or did not happen) *after* Perrin killed Rolan. And how the
other 2 were 'offed'.

But at the point at which Perrin killed their buddy, the rest of the
brotherless Aiel would have attacked him. And he may or may not have
been able to clobber them all.

So killing them was the only way out of it. They were trying to
escape, after all. I like to think that Faile, given a choice between
killing Rolan and fucking him in order to escape, would have gone with
killing him.

Luckily, she wasn't given the option of choosing. But she didn't have
even that much of a dilemma with the other guys. Maybe her sworn sword
didn't either, once push came to shove.

Post by ioanna

Post by Chucky & Janica
And frankly, I was glad when it happened. The guy was a dickhead.

I did not like him at all either (he had really bad taste :) - in women
I mean).

Hahahahaha! Point.

Post by ioanna
If he had died in some other way (or proper remorse was shown
after his death at perrin's hands) I would have thought "good riddance"
and that would be it.

Proper remorse?

Maybe we'll get some proper remorse in the next book. It's not like we
had much time to see anything that happened next. But in all
likelihood, we're not likely to. Why would Perrin have any regrets?
Or, for that matter, Faile? Rolan was going to kidnap her, rape her,
and take her away to the Aiel Waste, and he expected her to grin and
enjoy it just because being gai'shain somehow absolves you of all
sins.

Was she supposed to be *sad* about this not happening?

My theory is, Rolan and Perrin would have had to fight over Faile
anyway. Rolan was convinced she was gai'shain. He was too fucking
*dumb* to live.

Post by ioanna
Now *that* is a great idea! Well, I am not sure what *exactly* Mr
Pratchett and 'friendly stab' refer to,

People accidentally getting sworded in the neck by friends in a heated
battle situation. Like friendly fire but old-fashioned.

Mr. Pratchett, incidentally, is Terry Pratchett. Author of the
Discworld books.

Post by ioanna
but I get the point that really
*matters*: Faile dead! :)

Exactly!

Post by ioanna
I will second that wholeheartedly ! Say, for
example, Faile caught in the crossfire between Rolan & Perrin. But on
the other hand ... Wait! I am afraid you have not thought this through.

Heh heh, oh?

Post by ioanna
(I mean its *implications*) We would have to pay too dear a price if
that fervent wish had come to pass. Imagine Perrin's despair, guilt,
remorse, anger, frustration etc (the list is endless) afterwards.

Oh God, you might be right.

He'd have to die too. Or console himself with Berelain.

Post by ioanna
What his behaviour would be like ?! (My imagination buckles under that
strain!) And of course we would have to endure endless analyses of it!
(Just so, that it is certain *we get the point* that he is 'upset'.)

You're dead right. In Jordan's hands, such remorse could be deadly to
an unwary reader.

Post by ioanna
(and its variations, with which we are more than familiar by now)
repeated over and over, for 700 pages. White Tower? Seanchean ?
Forsaken ? Tarmon Gaidon ? Nah! Those are just unimportant details,
because "*Faile* is all that matters!"

*shudder*

Okay, maybe it's best that she lived, if Perrin is going to continue
to be a part of the story.

Rolan, on the other hand, is no big loss.





C&J

[ioanna]

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Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 10 Nov 2005 11:05:36 -0800 - there was
So killing them was the only way out of it. They were trying to
escape, after all. I like to think that Faile, given a choice between
killing Rolan and fucking him in order to escape, would have gone with
killing him.

OK. But with a choice between "Bye Rolan. Thanks for your help." and
killing him, she should have gone with the first one.

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by ioanna
If he had died in some other way (or proper remorse was shown
after his death at perrin's hands) I would have thought "good riddance"
and that would be it.

Proper remorse?
Maybe we'll get some proper remorse in the next book.

No, please ! :) (And I am sure it won't happen either. Unless RJ
changes his mind because 3 people were upset. Extremely unlikely, and
I'd rather he didn't anyway. What's done is done. Let's get on with the
'actual action' in book 12 please.)

Post by Chucky & Janica
It's not like we
had much time to see anything that happened next.

We had more than enough time I feel. (It should happen on the spot, if
at all). This was one of the cases were one should strike the iron
while it's hot. (say 2 pages worth). It didn't happen then, it won't
happen at all. What would be the point ? (Plus Faile & Lacile having
'second thoughts' later on, is not good enough anyway)

Post by Chucky & Janica
But in all
likelihood, we're not likely to. Why would Perrin have any regrets?

There's no need for him to regret anything as long as he doesn't know
that he killed one of the good guys. (and he doesn't know. Nor is he
going to find out.)

Post by Chucky & Janica
Or, for that matter, Faile? Rolan was going to kidnap her, rape her,
and take her away to the Aiel Waste, and he expected her to grin and
enjoy it just because being gai'shain somehow absolves you of all
sins.

I didn't see that there was any such dilemma for her. Kidnap her? Rape
her? I never saw any such threat mentioned or even hinted at. What have
I missed? On the contrary I think (in KoD?) that he was even willing to
help her escape (not *with him*, but so that she could return to her
husband. Sort of like "great pity you don't want me, but since it is
Perrin you prefer I may help you escape to go to him (or at least turn
a blind eye when you do, and not stop you or raise the alarm).* That is
another reason Faile is particularly ungrateful for me. There was no
such dilema (either gaishain or 'with' Rolan) for her.

[* Actually as they were all walking together, I got the impression
they were walking towards 'freedom' (unless some shaido stopped them).
When safely out of the fighting, the 3 to the Aiel waste, and Faile &
co free to re-unite with Perrin. But because they encountered Perrin,
the first part went unfulfilled]

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by ioanna
Now *that* is a great idea! Well, I am not sure what *exactly* Mr
Pratchett and 'friendly stab' refer to,

People accidentally getting sworded in the neck by friends in a heated
battle situation. Like friendly fire but old-fashioned.
Mr. Pratchett, incidentally, is Terry Pratchett. Author of the
Discworld books.

I knew that much, (Pratchett/Discworld) but as I haven't read any of
his books I was not sure how the 'frienldy stab' was defined.
Accidentaly killed by a friend (eg crossfire) ? Or *accidentaly on
purpose* killed by a "friend" ? There could be more than one
interpretations ...

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by ioanna
(I mean its *implications*) We would have to pay too dear a price if
that fervent wish had come to pass. Imagine Perrin's despair, guilt,
remorse, anger, frustration etc (the list is endless) afterwards.

Oh God, you might be right.
He'd have to die too. Or console himself with Berelain.

But the point is that he will be 'inconsolable' ! :)

Frankly I think there is no way he is dying, and also no way he would
ever choose Berelain over (even the memory of) Faile. I would
definately prefer Berelain over Faile if I were in his shoes. I quite
like her (Berelain). My only objection is, whatever does she see in
Perrin? I know he is a good guy and all that but still... Rand, I could
understand. Mat, I could inderstand. Many other people, I could
understand. (Especially Logain! ) *Even* Taim I could understand. (He
has my eternal gratitude for the kneel or you will be knelt line.) But
Perrin ? (He is ok for Faile, but Berelain should have higher
standards. eg Galad)

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by ioanna
What his behaviour would be like ?! (My imagination buckles under that
strain!) And of course we would have to endure endless analyses of it!
(Just so, that it is certain *we get the point* that he is 'upset'.)

You're dead right. In Jordan's hands, such remorse could be deadly to
an unwary reader.

:)
... AND even to the 'wary' ones... :)
(Especially them, actually. The 'unwary' ones have higher tolerance,
since they haven't suffered so much already. Whereas, one more blow
would kill me.. :)

Post by Chucky & Janica
Okay, maybe it's best that she lived, if Perrin is going to continue
to be a part of the story.
Rolan, on the other hand, is no big loss.

Yes, he isn't. It is just that, for me, the way he (and his friends)
was 'lost' made him more 'important' than he had any right to be under
normal circumstances.

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 11 Nov 2005 13:26:54 -0800 - there was

Post by ioanna
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Post by Chucky & Janica
So killing them was the only way out of it. They were trying to
escape, after all. I like to think that Faile, given a choice between
killing Rolan and fucking him in order to escape, would have gone with
killing him.

OK. But with a choice between "Bye Rolan. Thanks for your help." and
killing him, she should have gone with the first one.

Hypothetically, sure.

But in the actual case, she didn't even have to make this choice,
because Perrin killed him.

Post by ioanna

Post by Chucky & Janica
Proper remorse?
Maybe we'll get some proper remorse in the next book.

No, please ! :) (And I am sure it won't happen either. Unless RJ
changes his mind because 3 people were upset. Extremely unlikely, and
I'd rather he didn't anyway. What's done is done. Let's get on with the
'actual action' in book 12 please.)

*nod*

Post by ioanna

Post by Chucky & Janica
It's not like we
had much time to see anything that happened next.

We had more than enough time I feel. (It should happen on the spot, if
at all).

They were in the middle of a damn fight.

And they still were, when the chapter (and Perrin's part of the book)
ended.

Post by ioanna
This was one of the cases were one should strike the iron
while it's hot. (say 2 pages worth). It didn't happen then, it won't
happen at all. What would be the point ? (Plus Faile & Lacile having
'second thoughts' later on, is not good enough anyway)

Agreed. I don't really see why anybody would be upset at all. Faile
cried out when Perrin killed Rolan (or when they attacked each other),
and was a bit stricken when Rolan died ... but then they all moved on.
Shit happens. It's not like Rolan was a friend.

I'd have been much more disappointed if Faile, after being parted from
her husband (who she apparently loves with glowing ferocity) for so
long, and finally seeing him turn up, would drop to her knees beside
the body of her would-be fuck-master, and wring her hands, and go, "oh
no! Rolan is dead! He was going to let me go (eventually)! He was so
nice to me! He had two days left 'till retirement!" and then glance at
Perrin and say, "what took you so long?"

Fuck that.

Post by ioanna

Post by Chucky & Janica
But in all
likelihood, we're not likely to. Why would Perrin have any regrets?

There's no need for him to regret anything as long as he doesn't know
that he killed one of the good guys. (and he doesn't know. Nor is he
going to find out.)

Rolan wasn't a good guy.

And I doubt Perrin will think so, if Faile happens to tell him the
whole story. If anything, in Perrin's place I'd be even more glad the
guy is dead.

Like Perrin thought himself at the time. If he'd had the chance,
he'd've killed him again.

Post by ioanna

Post by Chucky & Janica
Or, for that matter, Faile? Rolan was going to kidnap her, rape her,
and take her away to the Aiel Waste, and he expected her to grin and
enjoy it just because being gai'shain somehow absolves you of all
sins.

I didn't see that there was any such dilemma for her. Kidnap her? Rape
her? I never saw any such threat mentioned or even hinted at.

Excuse me? He was going to take her off and have sex with her. He
expected her to enjoy it, because he thought she was tempted by him,
and in Aiel culture it's okay to do that sort of thing because being
gai'shain is sort of like going on Spring Break.

Rolan, and the other Brotherless, were going to head back to the
Waste, and they were going to take her with them. *That* was what
Rolan was going to do, as an alternative to helping Faile escape in
the way *she* wanted.

Post by ioanna
What have
I missed?

If you missed the above, you missed a lot.

If you merely interpreted it differently, then that's another matter.
It's just that we interpreted the whole thing the way we describe
above. And unless Faile *wanted* to fuck Rolan (and she might have
been beginning to), and unless she really believed that gai'shain sins
didn't hold over into real life (and she might have been beginning to
believe that too), then Rolan *was* planning on raping her.

Post by ioanna
On the contrary I think (in KoD?) that he was even willing to
help her escape (not *with him*, but so that she could return to her
husband. Sort of like "great pity you don't want me, but since it is
Perrin you prefer I may help you escape to go to him (or at least turn
a blind eye when you do, and not stop you or raise the alarm).*

Entirely possible. He was still just trying his luck the whole time,
with his talk of her lack of accountability, the insistence that she
was gai'shain, his stroking her ass.

*shrug*

None of this makes me mourn him, and I'm damn certain it wouldn't make
Perrin mourn him either. And I happen to think Faile is a decent
enough person that she wouldn't really mourn him either, beyind the
requisite "he wasn't one of the *real* enemy, and he helped us a
*bit*, maybe he didn't deserve to die and Perrin attacking him was
just a misunderstanding"-level grief.

I am still quite convinced that, if there had been nobody else around
other than Perrin and Faile and Rolan (and maybe Rolan's buddies),
Rolan would have insisted that Faile was gai'shain, and that she
belonged to him. Faile wouldn't have had a say in it, and Rolan would
probably have insisted that he and Perrin fight for her.

Post by ioanna
That is
another reason Faile is particularly ungrateful for me. There was no
such dilema (either gaishain or 'with' Rolan) for her.

I don't see the dilemma. Unless she really did like the guy, which I
prefer to doubt.

Post by ioanna
[* Actually as they were all walking together, I got the impression
they were walking towards 'freedom' (unless some shaido stopped them).

"Freedom" as in Rolan and his buddies heading for the Waist, and maybe
making a halfhearted effort to find Perrin, and Faile and the others
trying to ecape and probably not being allowed to because they were
still, according to Rolan, gai'shain.

Post by ioanna
When safely out of the fighting, the 3 to the Aiel waste, and Faile &
co free to re-unite with Perrin.

See, I don't think Rolan really meant for this to happen. He might
have been teasing Faile the whole time, but he did think she was just
gai'shain, and was serious about taking her with him if the chance
came up.

Post by ioanna
I knew that much, (Pratchett/Discworld) but as I haven't read any of
his books I was not sure how the 'frienldy stab' was defined.

Hee hee, you gotta read them. They're awesome.

Post by ioanna
Frankly I think there is no way he is dying, and also no way he would
ever choose Berelain over (even the memory of) Faile.

I agree, on both counts.

Post by ioanna
I would
definately prefer Berelain over Faile if I were in his shoes. I quite
like her (Berelain).

She's improved, since getting over her stupid short-sighted pursuit of
Perrin.

Post by ioanna
My only objection is, whatever does she see in
Perrin?

This was our problem. Maybe it was ta'veren. Perrin had to have a hawk
and a falcon fight over him. Plus, he's sort of mysterious, enigmatic,
powerful, and he's got those yellow eyes. And he's buff. And he was
all innocent and blushy and hard-to-get, and Faile was so jealous.

I mean, Berelain going for Rand is conceivable (as she did, once). She
wants to bed herself a powerful ally. Fucking Perrin doesn't really
get her much support for Mayene, though. Unless he resurrects
Manetheren and all that.

But that might not happen now. We'll see what Faile has to say. Perrin
might put his foot down about it, because he swore and oath and bla
bla bla.

Post by ioanna
Perrin ? (He is ok for Faile, but Berelain should have higher
standards. eg Galad)

That might be a politically savvy match, nowadays.

Post by ioanna

Post by Chucky & Janica
Rolan, on the other hand, is no big loss.

Yes, he isn't. It is just that, for me, the way he (and his friends)
was 'lost' made him more 'important' than he had any right to be under
normal circumstances.

Meh. He died in a fight. I didn't see what was so important about it
then, and after reading some of the discussion about it, I still don't
give much of a toss.

The alternative was that he be left alive. To either make trouble
later for no real reason, or just fizzle off into obscurity and do
nothing. At least this way, his removal from the story was a bit
dramatic.





C&J

[ioanna]

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Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 11 Nov 2005 13:26:54 -0800 - there was
Excuse me? He was going to take her off and have sex with her. He
expected her to enjoy it, because he thought she was tempted by him,
and in Aiel culture it's okay to do that sort of thing because being
gai'shain is sort of like going on Spring Break.
Rolan, and the other Brotherless, were going to head back to the
Waste, and they were going to take her with them. *That* was what
Rolan was going to do, as an alternative to helping Faile escape in
the way *she* wanted.

Post by ioanna
What have
I missed?

If you missed the above, you missed a lot.
If you merely interpreted it differently, then that's another matter.

I had some idea that Rolan wanted to convince Faile to see things "his
way". :) If he failed to convine her by verbal reasoning, then I don't
know if he would convince her by 'force' or just give up. At first
reading of Kod (since this is fresher) I thought not (ie he would not
force her) but now that you made me re-consider it, what you say is a
possibility I think. So I understand better your reasoning now.

Post by Chucky & Janica
I am still quite convinced that, if there had been nobody else around
other than Perrin and Faile and Rolan (and maybe Rolan's buddies),
Rolan would have insisted that Faile was gai'shain, and that she
belonged to him. Faile wouldn't have had a say in it, and Rolan would
probably have insisted that he and Perrin fight for her.

Hmmm.. I had more 'interpreted' things as Rolan having decided to give
Faile up (since convincing her by presenting his side of the argument
didn't work). What you say makes me feel much better actually. Thanks !
:) Because, 'I have this feeling :)', that in a fight (as you describe)
between Perrin and Rolan, Perrin would win (and Rolan would be killed)
so we would end up where we are now, and I would not have been at all
upset about it.

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by ioanna
I knew that much, (Pratchett/Discworld) but as I haven't read any of
his books I was not sure how the 'frienldy stab' was defined.

Hee hee, you gotta read them. They're awesome.

Quite a few people have already told me so, and here you are saying the
same thing, so I guess I should. Haven't heard of anyone who read them
and did not like them. Well, it it seems I will have to read them now.

Post by Chucky & Janica
The alternative was that he be left alive. To either make trouble
later for no real reason, or just fizzle off into obscurity and do
nothing. At least this way, his removal from the story was a bit
dramatic.

If he was left alive he would definately fizzle off into obscurity. He
served his purpose (plot-wise) while Faile was captive, and he would be
completely unnecessary after that. (And there is no room for completely
minor/insignificant characters to create trouble with only 1 more book.
I hope !? :) ) Actually I think he was unneccessary to begin with, as
was the whole 'Faile-captive' plot; the Shaido could have been taken
care in some other (much quicker) way back in tPoD-WH, but the
long-looong-loooong route was chosen instead :)

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 14 Nov 2005 08:24:46 -0800 - there was

Post by ioanna
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Post by Chucky & Janica
Rolan, and the other Brotherless, were going to head back to the
Waste, and they were going to take her with them. *That* was what
Rolan was going to do, as an alternative to helping Faile escape in
the way *she* wanted.

Post by ioanna
What have
I missed?

If you missed the above, you missed a lot.
If you merely interpreted it differently, then that's another matter.

I had some idea that Rolan wanted to convince Faile to see things "his
way". :) If he failed to convine her by verbal reasoning, then I don't
know if he would convince her by 'force' or just give up. At first
reading of Kod (since this is fresher) I thought not (ie he would not
force her) but now that you made me re-consider it, what you say is a
possibility I think. So I understand better your reasoning now.

Sure, it's open to interpretations. I just didn't see the big tragedy
when he died. He was bad news, and not worth much. Like Alaric says
elsewhere, the Brotherless on the whole are bad news.

Post by ioanna
Hmmm.. I had more 'interpreted' things as Rolan having decided to give
Faile up (since convincing her by presenting his side of the argument
didn't work).

That'd be nice to believe. I can't do it myself, but that's no reason
not to believe it.

However, you're right - it does tend to make his death a bit sadder.

Post by ioanna
What you say makes me feel much better actually. Thanks !

You're welcome.

Post by ioanna
:) Because, 'I have this feeling :)', that in a fight (as you describe)
between Perrin and Rolan, Perrin would win (and Rolan would be killed)
so we would end up where we are now, and I would not have been at all
upset about it.

*nod*

Post by ioanna
If he was left alive he would definately fizzle off into obscurity. He
served his purpose (plot-wise) while Faile was captive, and he would be
completely unnecessary after that. (And there is no room for completely
minor/insignificant characters to create trouble with only 1 more book.
I hope !? :) )

You are a very hopeful person, and I hate to break you.





So I won't. I'm sure the next book won't introduce anybody new, and
the whole plot will be summarised and brought to an end in a way that
doesn't seem slapdash and anticlimactic.

*wipes brow*

This is harder than I'm making it look.



C&J

[Aaron]

Post by ioanna
:) Because, 'I have this feeling :)', that in a fight (as you describe)
between Perrin and Rolan, Perrin would win (and Rolan would be killed)
so we would end up where we are now, and I would not have been at all
upset about it.

*nod*

What???? What are you both smoking, and can I have some of it?!

Rolan is bigger, faster, and stronger than Perrin, and he's Aiel! He's
been fighting his whole life, just like the rest of them! He could
swing Perrin on a stick as fast as Perrin can swing that damn hammer.
How in the hell do you imagine Perrin winning such a fight?

C&J

-Aaron

[Morek]

With wolves and a bit of taveren luck, perhaps...
Or else by having Faile intervene, grab both of them by their ears and
talk sense into both of them...
;)
Morek

[ioanna]

Post by Aaron

Post by ioanna
:) Because, 'I have this feeling :)', that in a fight (as you describe)
between Perrin and Rolan, Perrin would win (and Rolan would be killed)
so we would end up where we are now, and I would not have been at all
upset about it.

*nod*

What???? What are you both smoking, and can I have some of it?!
Rolan is bigger, faster, and stronger than Perrin, and he's Aiel! He's
been fighting his whole life, just like the rest of them! He could
swing Perrin on a stick as fast as Perrin can swing that damn hammer.
How in the hell do you imagine Perrin winning such a fight?

I imagined that Perrin would win such a fight because the author would
have some say in its outcome (and for the life of me, I can not imagine
him having one of his 3 main character's killed by an insignificant
nobody. :) That is why I was so confident about who would 'win'. :)
ie. Not based so much on objective facts (who is bigger, stronger,
faster, better trained etc) but based on the author's priorities...
But if we talk just theoritically (without taking into account the
author's preferences) then Perrin should definately not be that
optimistic....

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 18 Nov 2005 10:36:28 -0800 - there was

Post by ioanna

Post by Aaron
Rolan is bigger, faster, and stronger than Perrin, and he's Aiel! He's
been fighting his whole life, just like the rest of them! He could
swing Perrin on a stick as fast as Perrin can swing that damn hammer.
How in the hell do you imagine Perrin winning such a fight?

I imagined that Perrin would win such a fight because the author would
have some say in its outcome (and for the life of me, I can not imagine
him having one of his 3 main character's killed by an insignificant
nobody. :) That is why I was so confident about who would 'win'. :)
ie. Not based so much on objective facts (who is bigger, stronger,
faster, better trained etc) but based on the author's priorities...
But if we talk just theoritically (without taking into account the
author's preferences) then Perrin should definately not be that
optimistic....

On the other hand, how many highly-trained deadly Aiel did Perrin kill
on his rampage through the camp? Using nothing but a hammer, which
really doesn't stand up well against a spear, or arrows? He killed a
dozen or more, they didn't even stand a chance. One-on-one without the
battle-frenzy and a bit of space, Perrin wouldn't be so tough.

But there's a rule of fantasy about the blademaster and/or expert
being killed by the upstart farmboy. Perrin has farm in his blood.



C&J

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 18 Nov 2005 08:57:15 -0800 - there was

Post by Aaron
Rolan is bigger, faster, and stronger than Perrin, and he's Aiel! He's
been fighting his whole life, just like the rest of them! He could
swing Perrin on a stick as fast as Perrin can swing that damn hammer.
How in the hell do you imagine Perrin winning such a fight?

He's ta'veren. Rolan would slip on a banana peel, and get his penis
bitten by a wolf while he was on the ground.

Stupid, isn't it?



C&J

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Aaron

Post by ioanna
:) Because, 'I have this feeling :)', that in a fight (as you describe)
between Perrin and Rolan, Perrin would win (and Rolan would be killed)
so we would end up where we are now, and I would not have been at all
upset about it.

*nod*

What???? What are you both smoking, and can I have some of it?!
Rolan is bigger, faster, and stronger than Perrin, and he's Aiel! He's
been fighting his whole life, just like the rest of them! He could
swing Perrin on a stick as fast as Perrin can swing that damn hammer.
How in the hell do you imagine Perrin winning such a fight?

Faile distracted him.