Rand's madness and his moment of clarity during Tarmon Gaidon (small KOD spoiler)

[dime]

Hi, recently came back to add a comment here since KOD DIDN'T SUCK. I
used to read this newsgroup (WOW a good 10 years ago) during FOH.

IN KOD, Semirhage confirms that Rand's link with LTT is real. I was
thinking it would be ironic if the moment in the prologue with Ishamael
healing LTT comes back during the last moments of the book. Rand hasn't
been channeling all that long. Out of all his asha'man, not many have
gone completely insane. If resisting the madness had anything to do
with willpower at all, it seems odd for Rand to be so crazy. If he and
LTT are one, it may be LTT's madness affecting him. If time runs normal
continuously for both timelines, it may be that both Rand and LTT dies
at the same time. Rand dies at TG while LTT dies by suicide. Shortly
before LTT dies, Ishamael gives him the healing. Although in the
prologue, we don't have anything about Rand at all, it may be that this
will affect him and their mutual madness.

-dave ll

[e***@hotmail.com]

Rand is crazy? Say what?

Apart from arguing and fighting with LTT as a voice in his head, what
else has Rand done that is in the crazy category? Feeling guilt for all
the people who die because of him actually seems sane. And he seems to
be the only person truly focused on saving the world, everyone else
seems to be in it for themselves. (Ok some of his close posse like
Bashere don't seem too self centered, but everyone else...)

Oh yeah and he has those two unhealable wounds combined in his side.
That can't be good for the man. And enyone else experiencing the pain
cannot believe he can stand/walk/think straight. And after effects of
crossing the streams in Shadar Logoth.

The claustrophobia he suffers from has got a very fixed source. And his
whole making himself harder is all based on saving the world. So while
he may be a bit over the top, his circumstances do warrant it.

Actually having reconsidered, he is frightfully sane. The taint never
had a chance compared to everythin else.

[dime]

By crazy, I didn't mean that Rand was crazy crazy crazy. Although it's
true that when I first thought of this, I posted without first thinking
of the time (or times if there were more than one) when LTT remembers
killing himself.

When we read Rand's POV, we don't get much except his (obsessive
compulsive) thoughts on guilt. But I remember there are many parts in
the earlier books where Rand suffers from ADD where he just stops
paying attention or starts laughing out of nowhere. Maybe the reason RJ
doesn't write these into the Rand chapters is that it would be hard to
keep us hanging on the insanity issue when something as crazy as that
happens.

[Arnaud Gomes-do-Vale]

Post by dime
When we read Rand's POV, we don't get much except his (obsessive
compulsive) thoughts on guilt. But I remember there are many parts in
the earlier books where Rand suffers from ADD where he just stops
paying attention or starts laughing out of nowhere. Maybe the reason RJ
doesn't write these into the Rand chapters is that it would be hard to
keep us hanging on the insanity issue when something as crazy as that
happens.

My last full re-read was before CoT so I don't remember much of the
earlier books, but are not those parts you are talking about the moments
Rand got sick when he began to channel in tEOtW?

[Aaron]

Post by dime
By crazy, I didn't mean that Rand was crazy crazy crazy. Although it's
true that when I first thought of this, I posted without first thinking
of the time (or times if there were more than one) when LTT remembers
killing himself.
When we read Rand's POV, we don't get much except his (obsessive
compulsive) thoughts on guilt. But I remember there are many parts in
the earlier books where Rand suffers from ADD where he just stops
paying attention or starts laughing out of nowhere. Maybe the reason RJ
doesn't write these into the Rand chapters is that it would be hard to
keep us hanging on the insanity issue when something as crazy as that
happens.

Umm, cite an instance of that where he's not responding to LTT, or
having an internal dialogue which I consider to be quite common among
thinking persons. I certainly never thought of him as crazy or insane,
due to any of the above.

-Aaron

[Aaron]

Post by dime
By crazy, I didn't mean that Rand was crazy crazy crazy. Although it's
true that when I first thought of this, I posted without first thinking
of the time (or times if there were more than one) when LTT remembers
killing himself.
When we read Rand's POV, we don't get much except his (obsessive
compulsive) thoughts on guilt. But I remember there are many parts in
the earlier books where Rand suffers from ADD where he just stops
paying attention or starts laughing out of nowhere. Maybe the reason RJ
doesn't write these into the Rand chapters is that it would be hard to
keep us hanging on the insanity issue when something as crazy as that
happens.

Umm, cite an instance of that where he's not responding to LTT, or
having an internal dialogue which I consider to be quite common among
thinking persons. I certainly never thought of him as crazy or insane,
due to any of the above.

-Aaron

[Daniel Holm]

Post by e***@hotmail.com
Rand is crazy? Say what?

Hell yes Rand is crazy.

He has a list in his head with _every_ _single_ _name_ of every woman
who has ever died for him.

Guilt is understandable, yes, but not to Rand's degree. Most of these
women made their own decision, knowing what the danger entailed. Guilt,
yes, but not so strong that it overshadows _everything_ else.

--Daniel Holm

[Mark Ferguson]

Post by Daniel Holm
Hell yes Rand is crazy.
He has a list in his head with _every_ _single_ _name_ of every woman
who has ever died for him.
Guilt is understandable, yes, but not to Rand's degree. Most of these
women made their own decision, knowing what the danger entailed. Guilt,
yes, but not so strong that it overshadows _everything_ else.

I think that his obsessive compulsiveness over this issue stems from
his past-life guilt over the death of Ilyena. RJ has made it clear that
Ilyena's death was the single most traumatic event of LTT's life. Any
time LTT thinks of her he falls back into madness. I'm curious to see
how this plays out. I think it will somehow tie in with Rand and his
three girls and the boat scene.

--
Mark

[Holly Tjaden]

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by e***@hotmail.com
Rand is crazy? Say what?

Hell yes Rand is crazy.
He has a list in his head with _every_ _single_ _name_ of every woman
who has ever died for him.
Guilt is understandable, yes, but not to Rand's degree. Most of these
women made their own decision, knowing what the danger entailed. Guilt,
yes, but not so strong that it overshadows _everything_ else.
--Daniel Holm

If you look at other male characters, especially pulling Mat out, you
can see that killing women=bad how they were raised. Rand sees these
people dying for him, especially since if you look at EOTW, where
everyone runs around like a chicken with their head cut off if you
MENTION the Dragon reborn. He sees himself as this absolute horror of
the world come to life and feels a great deal of responsibility about
it. It's not an insanity thing. It's a man with a protective attitude
towards women who's been put through Hell. (I myself have a protective
attitude towards men, and I'm sure that if a lot died for me I'd be
pissed too) The Maidens carry his honor, which they really won't let
him forget. He sees that as "We die in your name."
Also, remember what he said to Min? He'd go to the gallows himself if
he could, just because he THOUGHT he had hurt her. (And then they carry
on like rabbits.) He wants more than ANYTHING to have women stop dying
in his name, but as he said, they'll have to wait till Tarmon Gai'don
for justice. I see him having that list as a way with coping with what
he's sort of done. It also keeps him human, which, considering what
he's turning into, is the best thing for him.

[Daniel Holm]

Post by Holly Tjaden

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by e***@hotmail.com
Rand is crazy? Say what?

Hell yes Rand is crazy.
He has a list in his head with _every_ _single_ _name_ of every woman
who has ever died for him.
Guilt is understandable, yes, but not to Rand's degree. Most of these
women made their own decision, knowing what the danger entailed. Guilt,
yes, but not so strong that it overshadows _everything_ else.
--Daniel Holm

If you look at other male characters, especially pulling Mat out, you
can see that killing women=bad how they were raised. Rand sees these
people dying for him, especially since if you look at EOTW, where
everyone runs around like a chicken with their head cut off if you
MENTION the Dragon reborn. He sees himself as this absolute horror of
the world come to life and feels a great deal of responsibility about
it. It's not an insanity thing. It's a man with a protective attitude
towards women who's been put through Hell. (I myself have a protective
attitude towards men, and I'm sure that if a lot died for me I'd be
pissed too) The Maidens carry his honor, which they really won't let
him forget. He sees that as "We die in your name."
Also, remember what he said to Min? He'd go to the gallows himself if
he could, just because he THOUGHT he had hurt her. (And then they carry
on like rabbits.) He wants more than ANYTHING to have women stop dying
in his name, but as he said, they'll have to wait till Tarmon Gai'don
for justice. I see him having that list as a way with coping with what
he's sort of done. It also keeps him human, which, considering what
he's turning into, is the best thing for him.

You're justifying his madness.

Don't.

As I said, yes, guilt is understandable--but not the list. Rand doesn't
have a photographic memory, yet he can still remember every single
name. He is completely obsessed with that list. That a man should take
wounds to defend a woman in his culture is precisely what has caused
him to go over the edge.

Rand *is* insane. Not to the same degree as Mesama or Fain, but crazy
nonetheless. Well. "Mentally ill" would be a better expression, I
suppose.

--Daniel Holm

[Peter Reid]

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by e***@hotmail.com
Rand is crazy? Say what?

Hell yes Rand is crazy.
He has a list in his head with _every_ _single_ _name_ of every woman
who has ever died for him.
Guilt is understandable, yes, but not to Rand's degree. Most of these
women made their own decision, knowing what the danger entailed. Guilt,
yes, but not so strong that it overshadows _everything_ else.

Plus, remember when Rand and Mat make it into Rhuidean, and they're both
almost dying of thirst, and Rand gets the fountains to work, and then
sits there laughing about it without making any move to drink? There
are numerous other times in the series where he acts similarly. He's
completely bonkers.

[e***@hotmail.com]

Post by Peter Reid

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by e***@hotmail.com
Rand is crazy? Say what?

Hell yes Rand is crazy.
He has a list in his head with _every_ _single_ _name_ of every woman
who has ever died for him.
Guilt is understandable, yes, but not to Rand's degree. Most of these
women made their own decision, knowing what the danger entailed. Guilt,
yes, but not so strong that it overshadows _everything_ else.

Plus, remember when Rand and Mat make it into Rhuidean, and they're both
almost dying of thirst, and Rand gets the fountains to work, and then
sits there laughing about it without making any move to drink? There
are numerous other times in the series where he acts similarly. He's
completely bonkers.

Seems normal to me.

When I have been working on a burnout project, say 18 hours a day for 4
days, I will find things funny that aren't. In particular if something
has been frustrating me suddenly turns out to have a simple solution I
missed or couldn't grasp, or if I've finally got everything lined up so
I can go home and then something else breaks. It's either laugh or cry
time.

And Rand is like that All The Time. He cannot afford one mistake. Yet
still he makes them. If I were him I would have balefired some people
by now just to make a point. In particular in Tear and Cairhein. Though
I would also have balefired Elayne on general principles. And probably
pulled a Cartman 'respect my authoritah' line a few times.

Rand in Rhuidean has two things going for it. One is it is from Mat's
POV. Which means all he sees is Rand's amusement. And what Rand laughs
at is the fact that there is a rule that you cannot bring water, and he
has solved that riddle. They have been some time without heat and water
in the desert so he is under stress. And he hadn't been trained in
using the power yet, so it was an achievement to make it do what he
wanted. It is still alien to him and he is still terrified of the
concept I think.

In fact most of the time we see Rand as 'sane' is when we are in his
POV, and we can witness his interactions with LTT. Everyone else might
see his pause and emotions run through him without explanation. The
laughing is the most common one, but then LTT is quite clearly insane.

And the list of names is Rand's tradeoff. He is like Mat in not teh
chivalry / chauvenist vein of protecting women and not letting harm
come to them. And then the maidens force his hand. He has to let them
die for him. And so he finds something to compensate or make up for a
perceived failing on his part.

I guess when I look for 'sanity' I look for what I believe to be
rational behaviour. Can I justify their actions based on their
situation. In Rands position I would go one of two ways, I would either
take the tyrant path and use the fact that they need me. I wouldn't be
backing down to Cadsuane or the Salidar AS because frankly they need me
more than I need them. I am destined to die regardless so it is their
choice as to whether or not they die too. Or I would take the cowards
path and simply leave. Sure I would have gone insane through the taint,
but at least I could have some sort of life. I probably am not mentally
tough enough to take the hero's path. Though maybe being ta'veren I
wouldn;t have the choice. And then maybe I would have outbreaks of the
giggles because nothing turns out like I plan.

It may not have helped that Cadsuane told him that she had experiences
of men channeling and that LTT's voice was a sign of madness and not
real.

[Peter Reid]

Post by e***@hotmail.com

Post by Peter Reid

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by e***@hotmail.com
Rand is crazy? Say what?

Hell yes Rand is crazy.
He has a list in his head with _every_ _single_ _name_ of every woman
who has ever died for him.
Guilt is understandable, yes, but not to Rand's degree. Most of these
women made their own decision, knowing what the danger entailed. Guilt,
yes, but not so strong that it overshadows _everything_ else.

Plus, remember when Rand and Mat make it into Rhuidean, and they're both
almost dying of thirst, and Rand gets the fountains to work, and then
sits there laughing about it without making any move to drink? There
are numerous other times in the series where he acts similarly. He's
completely bonkers.

Seems normal to me.
When I have been working on a burnout project, say 18 hours a day for 4
days, I will find things funny that aren't. In particular if something
has been frustrating me suddenly turns out to have a simple solution I
missed or couldn't grasp, or if I've finally got everything lined up so
I can go home and then something else breaks. It's either laugh or cry
time.

I'm not saying he's crazy because he's laughing. I'm saying he's crazy
because he's laughing AND NOT drinking the water that his body needs so
desperately. Mat comments that unless he had something to Rand, he
likely would have died of thirst laughing with the water right in front
of him, or some such.

THAT's crazy.

[rerun]

Post by dime
Hi, recently came back to add a comment here since KOD DIDN'T SUCK. I
used to read this newsgroup (WOW a good 10 years ago) during FOH.
IN KOD, Semirhage confirms that Rand's link with LTT is real. I was
thinking it would be ironic if the moment in the prologue with Ishamael
healing LTT comes back during the last moments of the book. Rand hasn't
been channeling all that long. Out of all his asha'man, not many have
gone completely insane. If resisting the madness had anything to do
with willpower at all, it seems odd for Rand to be so crazy. If he and
LTT are one, it may be LTT's madness affecting him. If time runs normal
continuously for both timelines, it may be that both Rand and LTT dies
at the same time. Rand dies at TG while LTT dies by suicide. Shortly
before LTT dies, Ishamael gives him the healing. Although in the
prologue, we don't have anything about Rand at all, it may be that this
will affect him and their mutual madness.
-dave ll

Plausable idea dime. However there are several things wrong with it.
Notably in KOD when LTT gets hold of the power he remembers how he
killed himself and begins to overfill Rand with the power. LTT killed
himself after being healed by Ishy so linear progression in two time
lines can be taken out of the equation. Personally I have always
considered LTT to be sane in Rands head, or as sane as a moral man can
be who discovers he has killed his wife and family. The benchmark I
used to judge his sanity in Rands head was the prologue: LTT insane =
Ishy his friend.. LTT sane = kill them all including himself.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by dime
Hi, recently came back to add a comment here since KOD DIDN'T SUCK. I
used to read this newsgroup (WOW a good 10 years ago) during FOH.
IN KOD, Semirhage confirms that Rand's link with LTT is real. I was
thinking it would be ironic if the moment in the prologue with Ishamael
healing LTT comes back during the last moments of the book. Rand hasn't
been channeling all that long. Out of all his asha'man, not many have
gone completely insane. If resisting the madness had anything to do
with willpower at all, it seems odd for Rand to be so crazy. If he and
LTT are one, it may be LTT's madness affecting him. If time runs normal
continuously for both timelines, it may be that both Rand and LTT dies
at the same time. Rand dies at TG while LTT dies by suicide. Shortly
before LTT dies, Ishamael gives him the healing. Although in the
prologue, we don't have anything about Rand at all, it may be that this
will affect him and their mutual madness.

LTT keeps moaning about his murder of Ilyena, which he would not be doing
if his timeline was running parallel to Rand's timeline.