Discussion:
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts *SPOILERS*
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r***@gmail.com
2005-10-11 20:09:07 UTC
Permalink
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts

It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.























Spoilers for the Uninitiated

Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.


Random spoilers in no particular order

1) I predicted (as did many of you) that Galad would challenge Eamon
Valda to a duel of honor over Morgase, and well, yeah. That happened.


2) This book was Sappho-rific! Lesbians Ahoy! Really. Firstly. RJ has
all but laid it out on the table that virtually every novice/Accepted
has some hot girl on girl action in the Tower, and that it's merely a
childish fling, although some like *Galina* never put it aside. -
Yes, Tarna comments that Galina put the moves on her after she was
raised, but Tarna poltitely declined. Also, Elaida and Meidani (the
Rebel Grey "Ferret") may have had a fling as well, and while we are at
it, and not terribly surprising, but homosexuality seems not uncommon
among the Maidens of the Spear - Arella Shiago of Cha Faile has taken
to sleeping with the Shaido Maiden who took her as gai'shan - OTOH,
Lacile Aldorwhin has taken to doing the same with the Aielman who took
her as well.

However, having said all that, the revelation about Galina particularly
makes me think that RJ is definitely influenced by his readers, no
matter what he claims. Galina's vaguely lascivious comments regarding
Erian, way back when, sparked discussion of her orientation, and now he
sees fit to set the record, uh, straight.

Not to mention Aran'gar and Graendal, plus the fact that Delana has set
out a rumor which explains why she and Halima are so close, and it has
nothing to do with taking dictation or filing correspondences.


3) As a sop to John Hamby specifically, Bennae Sedai *finally* makes an
appearance! Plus, with her own last name, no less (that I forget) No
Serafelle, though. Lirene and Tsumata also show up. Tsutama is the new
Red Highest.


4) Similarly, RJ saw fit to clear up a few, umm, oversights in his
world set-up. We learn that the Tinkers *do* have a cultural method of
dealing with girls who can channel, and yes, there is even a Malkieri
Aes Sedai! A somewhat less than stellar Green named Nacelle.
Apparently, there were many, but they all got themselves killed on
vigilante quests.

5) For that matter, we finally see some of the pocket refuge
communities of Malkieri! In related thoughts, Nynaeve rules. Trust me.

6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!

7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
the established story. Well done, RJ. Unfortunately, Vandene dies, and
she was always one of the more plausible and decent Aes Sedai figures.

8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.

9) Nice character development on some of the Red Ajah. Nuances added
that make them less of a Feminazi Man-Hating Club. One still pays for
the educations of her nephews and cousins, another dates men, quietly,
a third still dotes on her father, etc. Oh, and Pevara has a last name,
but it is something long and convoluted like Maratavavni.

10) Romanda gets a POV, and we finally get a slant on her that makes
her seem more human and less of a caricature. Plus, she's sharp and
instantly makes a connection between the deaths of Kairen, Anaiya and
Cabriana Mercandes that rings true and *actually* acts on it!

11) Oh, and Sharina Melloy is an organizational genius.

12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.

13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.

14) House Saighain of Cairhien is really treacherous. Colavaere's
cousin Dairaine is a prisoner among the Shaido like Faile, and she's
feckless and treacherous as Colavaere.

15) Faile has finally reverted to the smart, capable and decent young
heroine she seemed during the Two Rivers campaign. She really has
acquired quite an entourage of her own. She also speaks the Old Tongue.
In a related note, Perrin defeats the Shaido with a stroke of genius.

16) Setalle Anan admits her status as a former Aes Sedai. No name,
though, but she is so totally Martine Jenata.

17) Yay, the Seanchan Empress has a name, Radhannan, but don't bother
getting used to it.

18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.

19) The Steward of the Dragon in Arad Doman will so obviously be Rodel
Ituralde.

20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in both
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the five
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we see
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while Romanda
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus Romanda
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the Hall and
also First Weaver.

21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.


I liked it, a lot. Stuff really happens. Characters develop (finally)
and acquire new dimensions. It's got a little bit of everything for
everyone. Tower foo. Derring-do. Battles, mysteries resolved, beloved
characters living up to their promise, etc.

Hooray.

--
RMB
***@webspan.net
***@gmail.com
Ash
2005-10-11 21:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Random spoilers in no particular order
snip
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Is this the second time women who could channel would hurt him? I
thought Min said Perrin would be needed
Post by r***@gmail.com
16) Setalle Anan admits her status as a former Aes Sedai. No name,
though, but she is so totally Martine Jenata.
Unless there was another burned out Aes Sedai from 20 years before with
an interest in Ter'angreal
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
I didn't see it from Mat, but Perrin was totally single minded - nothing
mattered apart from freeing Faile
Post by r***@gmail.com
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in both
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the five
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we see
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while Romanda
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus Romanda
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the Hall and
also First Weaver.
I said in the other thread, but I think the fact that Beonin, who
managed to arrive early enough to be influential was sent by Elaida adds
weight to the possibility that there was enough time for the Ajah heads
to organise sending a Sitter each.
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
very menacing, but felt anti-climactic to me
r***@gmail.com
2005-10-11 22:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Random spoilers in no particular order
snip
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Is this the second time women who could channel would hurt him? I
thought Min said Perrin would be needed
I don't know. Possible, I guess.
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
16) Setalle Anan admits her status as a former Aes Sedai. No name,
though, but she is so totally Martine Jenata.
Unless there was another burned out Aes Sedai from 20 years before with
an interest in Ter'angreal
Martine's twin sister, Shmartine, maybe?
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
I didn't see it from Mat, but Perrin was totally single minded - nothing
mattered apart from freeing Faile
Well, for example, Tuon gets her jollies breaking Aes Sedai into happy,
placid damane. This is, IMHO, a major character flaw yet Mat pays it no
mind.
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in both
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the five
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we see
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while Romanda
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus Romanda
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the Hall and
also First Weaver.
I said in the other thread, but I think the fact that Beonin, who
managed to arrive early enough to be influential was sent by Elaida adds
weight to the possibility that there was enough time for the Ajah heads
to organise sending a Sitter each.
I agree whole-heartedly.

There is also a throw-in that the Ob5 (Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima
and Faiselle) have totally coopted the "Reunion Talks" in Darein - one
suspects to make sure that they ammount to nothing.
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
very menacing, but felt anti-climactic to me
Well, it was an oddly dissonant moment in a book brimming with triumph
and resolution. I think it struck just the right note.

--
RmB
***@webspan.net
***@gmail.com
Karproxid
2005-10-14 06:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off
yesterday,
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in both
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the five
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we see
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while Romanda
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus Romanda
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the Hall and
also First Weaver.
I said in the other thread, but I think the fact that Beonin, who
managed to arrive early enough to be influential was sent by Elaida adds
weight to the possibility that there was enough time for the Ajah heads
to organise sending a Sitter each.
I agree whole-heartedly.
There is also a throw-in that the Ob5 (Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima
and Faiselle) have totally coopted the "Reunion Talks" in Darein - one
suspects to make sure that they ammount to nothing.
Riddle me this: Since we know the ob5 are Elaida's, why is Elaida so
Adamantly against the Talks? Shouldn't she be for the Talks if they
are in her hand?
Ash
2005-10-14 09:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off
yesterday,
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in
both
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the
five
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we
see
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while
Romanda
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus
Romanda
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the
Hall and
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
also First Weaver.
I said in the other thread, but I think the fact that Beonin, who
managed to arrive early enough to be influential was sent by Elaida
adds
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
weight to the possibility that there was enough time for the Ajah
heads
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
to organise sending a Sitter each.
I agree whole-heartedly.
There is also a throw-in that the Ob5 (Saroiya, Varilin, Magla,
Takima
Post by r***@gmail.com
and Faiselle) have totally coopted the "Reunion Talks" in Darein -
one
Post by r***@gmail.com
suspects to make sure that they ammount to nothing.
Riddle me this: Since we know the ob5 are Elaida's, why is Elaida so
Adamantly against the Talks? Shouldn't she be for the Talks if they
are in her hand?
I don't think they are hers. From her point of view, she only sent one
person and that was Beonin
Ash
2005-10-14 13:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off
yesterday,
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in
both
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the
five
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we
see
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while
Romanda
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus
Romanda
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the
Hall and
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
also First Weaver.
I said in the other thread, but I think the fact that Beonin, who
managed to arrive early enough to be influential was sent by Elaida
adds
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
weight to the possibility that there was enough time for the Ajah
heads
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
to organise sending a Sitter each.
I agree whole-heartedly.
There is also a throw-in that the Ob5 (Saroiya, Varilin, Magla,
Takima
Post by r***@gmail.com
and Faiselle) have totally coopted the "Reunion Talks" in Darein -
one
Post by r***@gmail.com
suspects to make sure that they ammount to nothing.
Riddle me this: Since we know the ob5 are Elaida's, why is Elaida so
Adamantly against the Talks? Shouldn't she be for the Talks if they
are in her hand?
I don't think they are hers. From her point of view, she only sent one
person and that was Beonin
Well, if they are hers, they decided to be so after leaving. When she
talks to Seaine, she says "Every Sitter who was not informed fled the
Tower and joined the rebels"

If she had sent them, she would have known they didn't flee and would
not have been able to say "fled". It would have had to have been "left
the Tower" or some such.
r***@gmail.com
2005-10-14 13:54:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off
yesterday,
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in
both
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the
five
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we
see
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while
Romanda
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus
Romanda
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the
Hall and
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
also First Weaver.
I said in the other thread, but I think the fact that Beonin, who
managed to arrive early enough to be influential was sent by Elaida
adds
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
weight to the possibility that there was enough time for the Ajah
heads
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
to organise sending a Sitter each.
I agree whole-heartedly.
There is also a throw-in that the Ob5 (Saroiya, Varilin, Magla,
Takima
Post by r***@gmail.com
and Faiselle) have totally coopted the "Reunion Talks" in Darein -
one
Post by r***@gmail.com
suspects to make sure that they ammount to nothing.
Riddle me this: Since we know the ob5 are Elaida's, why is Elaida so
Adamantly against the Talks? Shouldn't she be for the Talks if they
are in her hand?
I don't think that the Ob5 are _Elaida's_. I think that they are
working for the Ajah Heads, who are working in contravention of Elaida,
it seems.

Elaida sent Beonin (and possibly others), but it seems to me, although
implausible, but the Ajah Heads (Ferane, Serancha, Suana, Jesse and
Adelorna) in Tar Valon (we need a catchy by-name for them - the AJITV?
The Heads?, Anyway....) sent Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle to join the rebels, or.... they were rebels first and then
were communicated with by their superiors *after* they joined the
rebels, and have been following orders aftwards?

I still cannot reconcile anything other than option two with them
standing for Egwene initially. Unless, RJ washes that away by having
them all say that they stood for Egwene as a farce, never in a million
years dreaming that making an Accepted Amyrlin would amount to
anything.

No matter how RJ addresses it, it's a mess.

--
RMB
***@webspan.net
***@gmail.com
j***@cub.kcnet.org
2005-10-14 20:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off
yesterday,
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in
both
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the
five
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we
see
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while
Romanda
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus
Romanda
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the
Hall and
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
Post by r***@gmail.com
also First Weaver.
I said in the other thread, but I think the fact that Beonin, who
managed to arrive early enough to be influential was sent by Elaida
adds
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
weight to the possibility that there was enough time for the Ajah
heads
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
to organise sending a Sitter each.
I agree whole-heartedly.
There is also a throw-in that the Ob5 (Saroiya, Varilin, Magla,
Takima
Post by r***@gmail.com
and Faiselle) have totally coopted the "Reunion Talks" in Darein -
one
Post by r***@gmail.com
suspects to make sure that they ammount to nothing.
Riddle me this: Since we know the ob5 are Elaida's, why is Elaida so
Adamantly against the Talks? Shouldn't she be for the Talks if they
are in her hand?
I don't think that the Ob5 are _Elaida's_. I think that they are
working for the Ajah Heads, who are working in contravention of Elaida,
it seems.
Definitely not Elaida's, imo.
Post by r***@gmail.com
Elaida sent Beonin (and possibly others), but it seems to me, although
implausible, but the Ajah Heads (Ferane, Serancha, Suana, Jesse and
Adelorna) in Tar Valon (we need a catchy by-name for them - the AJITV?
The Heads?, Anyway....) sent Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle to join the rebels, or.... they were rebels first and then
were communicated with by their superiors *after* they joined the
rebels, and have been following orders aftwards?
I find either notion rather implausible. But no more now than the one
with
Beonin. More than once now, we see two or more react in suspicion to
another acting in concert over matters within the Hall. My first
thought is that the five each have orders from their head but have no
idea the five heads are acting together. First thoughts on the matter
though tend to be wrong. But ignorance as to the other four following
their own agenda beyond coincidence does lend a little credence to the
idea that they fled first; became conciliationists later.
Post by r***@gmail.com
I still cannot reconcile anything other than option two with them
standing for Egwene initially. Unless, RJ washes that away by having
them all say that they stood for Egwene as a farce, never in a million
years dreaming that making an Accepted Amyrlin would amount to
anything.
If Elaida's comment about the Sitters fleeing can be taken with any
credibility, that suggests to me that the six that fled never once made
it to a Hall sitting after the one that deposed Siuan. At least with
Beonin, the timing can be a little latter. Beonin arrives in the mess
and attaches herself to Sheriam and Anaiya and makes herself useful.
On the other hand, the Sitters don't have all that much time to decide
to flee or stay I would think. I cannot imagine that Elaida did not
take an accounting of the whereabouts of all the other Sitters once the
dust cleared. So I tend to lean toward the six Sitters having fled in
the chaos of the coup and counter coup. Not much time for
consideration that five Sitters might be needed in any type of
resistance or even gathering. And the fact is none of the Sitters,
even Lelaine, had any real type of authority until after Siuan arrived
and convinced Sheriam's clique to go ahead and create one.

Maybe they were not rebels initially so much as Sitters who thought the
political climate was way too unhealthy with sisters dying and none of
them invited to the original coup that left Elaida in charge.

You and I have slight disagreements on where we each favor the timing
of the replacement Hall in the Tower. There is the possibility that
the Hall in the Tower was repopulated much quicker than either of us
considered. Maybe the five (and Janya) all fled the violence and
uncertainty. And other than Janya, none had real rebellion on their
mind. However Alviarin and the BA take the opportunity to sow even
more discord. Alviarin stokes Elaida's anger as well as whatever
influence the BA have in the Hall and on Elaida's council at the time
to force a new formation of the Hall. Elaida, paranoid and angry at
being bridled by her council and the escape of Siuan and Leane is not
only all to willing to agree, but fails to realize that she really has
no say in the matter.
It could be that Elaida unwittingly forced the five into the arms of
the rebellion and the Ajah heads decided to make the best of it.
Thinking that eventually all things will be forgiven and forgotten and
the five old Sitters will be able to sneak back to the fold. After all
Elaida's grand proclamation of all is forgiven came after the council
meeting in TFOH didn't it? If the Hall in the Tower was already
re-formed with the place Sitters, this would make some bit of sense in
a nonsensical plot device.

Faced with the realization that a new Hall has to sit, the Ajah heads
pick place Sitters and send word to the five to join the gathering that
turns into the rebels and do what they can to blunt any ideas of formal
resistance to Elaida. Thinking that if any resistance whithers
quickly, Elaida can be calmed down and the Ajahs can bring them back.
Initially I had problems with this type of scenario because of Elaida
being hobbled by her council. However Elaida seems to have been the
one to limit the Browns, Greens and Yellows to one sister each wasn't
she? Or perhaps that was a result of the BA already and Elaida just
thought it was her idea. After all, Galina was still in the Tower at
the time and it's not too much of a stretch to think that BA had
Elaida's ear and made sure she whispered the right words to go in
tandem with whatever Alviarin might have been suggesting at the time.

Which brings me to an idea for Janya. Namely that she was one of those
who tried to free Siuan and fled when that attempt failed. She might
have been cut out of the deal by being the only non-Blue to actively
take part in the counter coup. I know I tend to consider Janya's
actions the cause of her being cast out as it were by the Tower Ajah
heads. Perhaps it is the other way. Maybe Janya acts as she does
because she already knows she gambled and failed once. Any idea of
staying in power or even as a sister (or even with her head still
attached) is a complete overthrow of Elaida. Assuming Janya is not BA,
of course.
Post by r***@gmail.com
No matter how RJ addresses it, it's a mess.
Oh, most definitely.


---
JSH
John S Novak, III
2005-10-16 03:39:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
I didn't see it from Mat, but Perrin was totally single minded - nothing
mattered apart from freeing Faile
Well, for example, Tuon gets her jollies breaking Aes Sedai into happy,
placid damane. This is, IMHO, a major character flaw yet Mat pays it no
mind.
Didn't Mat at least have the stones to prevent the collaring of several
Aes Sedai? That's something.

Although it touches on something that has grown to irritate me steadily
throughout the series, namely, the unbelieveably authoritarian and
custom-bound nature of... pretty much every society out there in the
books.

I'm hard pressed to think of a moment when anyone from non-central
Randland ever once stopped and thought, "Wow. I'm seven thousand miles
from home, alone or nearly alone among millions of strangers. Maybe I
should, you know, make an effort to understand and perhaps slightly
conform to their customs. Maybe that'd make sense, hmm?"

No, instead everyone-- Seanchan, Aes Sedai, Sea Folk, and probably the
Sharans if we were to see them as major characters-- all, uniformly, to
a man or woman, assume that all hundred million central Randlanders are
either irredeemable barbarians, or congenitally insane for not realizing
the "proper" ways of doing things.

And likewise, the customs never ever get questioned. This hit home when
the Wise Ones up and decided that, Car'a'carn's main squeeze or not,
Last Battle around the corner or not, extremely powerful channeler with
a major new talent that could help defeat the Dark One notwithstanding,
no, Aviendha's going to finish her piddly ass Wise One training, AND
SHE'S GOING TO DO IT RIGHT NOW, DAMMIT!

And Aviendha submits! It never once occurs to her to say, "Stuff it. I
have more important things to do, bitches. See you after I've helped
win the Last Battle. Kthxbye."
--
John S. Novak, III
The Humblest Man On The Net
Michael Bruce
2005-10-16 04:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Space of spoilers.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Ash
I didn't see it from Mat, but Perrin was totally single minded - nothing
mattered apart from freeing Faile
Well, for example, Tuon gets her jollies breaking Aes Sedai into happy,
placid damane. This is, IMHO, a major character flaw yet Mat pays it no
mind.
Didn't Mat at least have the stones to prevent the collaring of several
Aes Sedai? That's something.
Mat seems to be acting pretty reasonably about the whole thing. He's
done what he can, and he got rid of the a'dam, but (relating to your
next paragraphs) he knows that he has little power to actually change
Tuon's mind about anything.
Post by John S Novak, III
Although it touches on something that has grown to irritate me steadily
throughout the series, namely, the unbelieveably authoritarian and
custom-bound nature of... pretty much every society out there in the
books.
I'm hard pressed to think of a moment when anyone from non-central
Randland ever once stopped and thought, "Wow. I'm seven thousand miles
from home, alone or nearly alone among millions of strangers. Maybe I
should, you know, make an effort to understand and perhaps slightly
conform to their customs. Maybe that'd make sense, hmm?"
I think it ties into my biggest objection in the whole series, which
actually popped out of the pages and kicked me in the nose when I read
a couple of the previous volumes in prep for this one (it didn't work;
I still just ignored about 75% of the names mentioned): no one appears
to have any capacity for empathy, of any kind whatsoever.

No one can just mentally put themselves in the place of another
character for even a few seconds. This is just incredibly annoying
and frustrating.

It means that everyone assumes that they're right and everyone else is
wrong. That they know everything and everyone else knows nothing. That
their cause is righteous and important, and everyone else's is trivial.

Practically everyone in the series needs to be beaten in the head with a
fucking baseball bat. The world is ending, you idiots! Get it
together!
Post by John S Novak, III
No, instead everyone-- Seanchan, Aes Sedai, Sea Folk, and probably the
Sharans if we were to see them as major characters-- all, uniformly, to
a man or woman, assume that all hundred million central Randlanders are
either irredeemable barbarians, or congenitally insane for not realizing
the "proper" ways of doing things.
They aren't very good at thinking critically about themselves.
Post by John S Novak, III
And likewise, the customs never ever get questioned. This hit home when
the Wise Ones up and decided that, Car'a'carn's main squeeze or not,
Last Battle around the corner or not, extremely powerful channeler with
a major new talent that could help defeat the Dark One notwithstanding,
no, Aviendha's going to finish her piddly ass Wise One training, AND
SHE'S GOING TO DO IT RIGHT NOW, DAMMIT!
And Aviendha submits! It never once occurs to her to say, "Stuff it. I
have more important things to do, bitches. See you after I've helped
win the Last Battle. Kthxbye."
That was pretty weird.

What is Wise One training, anyway? Learning how to be pushy, arrogant,
narrow-minded and condescending? That seems to be an inborn skill in
most randlanders, anyway.
--
Michael Bruce
***@jhereg.net
John S Novak, III
2005-10-16 06:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bruce
I think it ties into my biggest objection in the whole series, which
actually popped out of the pages and kicked me in the nose when I read
a couple of the previous volumes in prep for this one (it didn't work;
I still just ignored about 75% of the names mentioned): no one appears
to have any capacity for empathy, of any kind whatsoever.
No one can just mentally put themselves in the place of another
character for even a few seconds. This is just incredibly annoying
and frustrating.
Wrong word for it, but yes, I agree.

(There are occasional moments of empathy, like when Tuon-- who has
obviously figured out that Noal is Jaem Farstrider, but never bothers to
tell anyone-- empathizes about the cost of his adventures.)
Post by Michael Bruce
It means that everyone assumes that they're right and everyone else is
wrong. That they know everything and everyone else knows nothing. That
their cause is righteous and important, and everyone else's is trivial.
On a practical level, it means that the people of Randland stop their
social development at approximately the age of 19. This explains why I
liked the books more when I was 19, or even 25, than I do now.

Granted, I know a lot of 25 and 35, and even 55 year old people with
that attitude, but for most people, it peaks at the end of the teen
years and dwindles with experience. Only in Randland do we routinely
see people hundreds of years old uniformly acting like idiots. They
don't even have the excuse of being something other than human.
Post by Michael Bruce
What is Wise One training, anyway? Learning how to be pushy, arrogant,
narrow-minded and condescending? That seems to be an inborn skill in
most randlanders, anyway.
It certainly involves training in torture.

Assuming the Wise Ones are about the sake as the Aes Sedai, it probably
involves lesbianism under some oh-so-cutesy name like bed-of-itchy-sand-
friends. And bondage.
--
John S. Novak, III
The Humblest Man On The Net
Michael Bruce
2005-10-16 09:44:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Michael Bruce
I think it ties into my biggest objection in the whole series, which
actually popped out of the pages and kicked me in the nose when I read
a couple of the previous volumes in prep for this one (it didn't work;
I still just ignored about 75% of the names mentioned): no one appears
to have any capacity for empathy, of any kind whatsoever.
No one can just mentally put themselves in the place of another
character for even a few seconds. This is just incredibly annoying
and frustrating.
Wrong word for it, but yes, I agree.
I think it's a fine word. "Direct identification with, understanding
of, and vicarious experience of another person's situation, feelings,
and motives."
Post by John S Novak, III
(There are occasional moments of empathy, like when Tuon-- who has
obviously figured out that Noal is Jaem Farstrider, but never bothers to
tell anyone-- empathizes about the cost of his adventures.)
I am so not going to flip through the book to find the passage, but that
might instead be a moment of sympathy. Or not, but hey.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Michael Bruce
It means that everyone assumes that they're right and everyone else is
wrong. That they know everything and everyone else knows nothing. That
their cause is righteous and important, and everyone else's is trivial.
On a practical level, it means that the people of Randland stop their
social development at approximately the age of 19. This explains why I
liked the books more when I was 19, or even 25, than I do now.
It was less annoying in the earlier books, in some ways (ways that
probably also would work well in the mid/late teens, now that I think of
it). We saw things from the perspective of our mostly-reasonable
backwoods heroes, and when we encountered the self-involved lunatics in
the outside world they were often authority figures above our reasonable
heroes.

Older authority figures who Just Don't Understand...there's a reason
it's a classic.

Still not actually good characterization, but it puts a different spin
on things. Also, there was Moiraine, who wasn't nearly as stupid as
most of the other randlanders.

Now we're being asked to sympathize with the stupid people, who are now
major and sometimes POV characters, plus our lovable backwoods heroes
are sometimes acting like them.

Sort of unrelatedly: someone needs to light Cadsuane on fire and throw
her off a cliff. She was almost decent when she first appeared, and now
she's just another in a long line of arrogant bullies.

--
Michael Bruce
***@jhereg.net
Jim Hill
2005-10-16 22:46:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Michael Bruce
What is Wise One training, anyway?
It certainly involves training in torture.
Which raises the interesting question: Given that so damn many of the
women in Randland really, desperately, spectacularly need to have the
holy living Christ beaten out of them, why does it irritate me so that
all the women's groups routinely beat the holy living Christ out of
their members?

Note to RJ: the magnitude and frequency of the beatings you describe
will not make better [Aes Sedai|Windfinders|Wise Ones|Kinswomen]. They
make little female Harrises and Klebolds with Magyckal Pow'rs.


Jim
--
"Saying a flaw in evolutionary theory proves Intelligent Design correct
is like seeing an episode of the Dukes of Hazzard and concluding that
automobiles are capable of sustained flight." -- Andy Hopkins
Michael Hoye
2005-10-17 00:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Hill
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Michael Bruce
What is Wise One training, anyway?
It certainly involves training in torture.
Which raises the interesting question: Given that so damn many of the
women in Randland really, desperately, spectacularly need to have the
holy living Christ beaten out of them, why does it irritate me so that
all the women's groups routinely beat the holy living Christ out of
their members?
Because it's all about knocking them back in line, not knocking some
sense into them?

I stopped reading the series three books ago, so dunno, I'm just
saying.
--
Mike Hoye
Jim Hill
2005-10-17 03:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Hoye
Post by Jim Hill
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Michael Bruce
What is Wise One training, anyway?
It certainly involves training in torture.
Which raises the interesting question: Given that so damn many of the
women in Randland really, desperately, spectacularly need to have the
holy living Christ beaten out of them, why does it irritate me so that
all the women's groups routinely beat the holy living Christ out of
their members?
Because it's all about knocking them back in line, not knocking some
sense into them?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. One does not develop strong independent
thinkers by beating the new blood into instant unquestioning obedience
leavened with a dash of ritualis and tradition.


Jim
--
"Saying a flaw in evolutionary theory proves Intelligent Design correct
is like seeing an episode of the Dukes of Hazzard and concluding that
automobiles are capable of sustained flight." -- Andy Hopkins
John S Novak, III
2005-10-17 05:18:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Hill
Post by Michael Hoye
Because it's all about knocking them back in line, not knocking some
sense into them?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. One does not develop strong independent
thinkers by beating the new blood into instant unquestioning obedience
leavened with a dash of ritualis and tradition.
Yes. And all the cultures in the books that do this, know this.
Despite their lamentations about the loss of knowledge and the lack of
progress (mainly in the White Tower, since they're the only ones with a
keen sense of what they've lost) they do it anyway.

All the cultures there are incredibly authoritarian. They know it, they
revel in it, they consider it RIght and Good. And each culture is
introduced in the same standard pattern-- you meet an abnormally
tolerant specimen (and when you consider Aviendha in that group, that's
saying something) then see the rest of the rotten culture, then see them
cling to custom in the face of all reality, and then eventually want to
see them all murdered in their sleep.
--
John S. Novak, III
The Humblest Man On The Net
Allen Bryan
2005-10-18 02:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Jim Hill
Post by Michael Hoye
Because it's all about knocking them back in line, not knocking some
sense into them?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. One does not develop strong independent
thinkers by beating the new blood into instant unquestioning obedience
leavened with a dash of ritualis and tradition.
Yes. And all the cultures in the books that do this, know this.
Despite their lamentations about the loss of knowledge and the lack of
progress (mainly in the White Tower, since they're the only ones with a
keen sense of what they've lost) they do it anyway.
All the cultures there are incredibly authoritarian. They know it, they
revel in it, they consider it RIght and Good. And each culture is
introduced in the same standard pattern-- you meet an abnormally
tolerant specimen (and when you consider Aviendha in that group, that's
saying something) then see the rest of the rotten culture, then see them
cling to custom in the face of all reality, and then eventually want to
see them all murdered in their sleep.
And the really profoundly sad thing is -- most cultures in history were
like this. Fortunately, there is an antidote. Peddlers, gleemen,
Tinkers, traders, seamen (other than Aath'an Miere, who are nonetheless
tolerant of the Amayar), Aes Sedai; anyone who has extended contact
with multiple cultures is distinctly more tolerant than people who have
lived in one village or one province their whole life.

What few people haven considered is that people are being uprooted at
an incredible rate. RJ says this over and over again but the
implications are more profound than just the migrations and army
movements. If somebody in the nineteenth century Traveled whole tribes
of Afghans into an Arkansas being invaded by a Mexican/Argentinian
alliance, with some Chinese wandering around and a Protestant preacher
raising up crowds of Jehovah's Witnesses, you'd have something
approaching the current situation in, say, Ghealdan. Now take away the
experience of other cultures made possible by modern technology...

I'd expect people to behave PRECISELY as RJ is depicting them.
Ian Hurst
2005-10-18 03:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allen Bryan
Post by John S Novak, III
All the cultures there are incredibly authoritarian. They know it, they
revel in it, they consider it RIght and Good. And each culture is
introduced in the same standard pattern-- you meet an abnormally
tolerant specimen (and when you consider Aviendha in that group, that's
saying something) then see the rest of the rotten culture, then see them
cling to custom in the face of all reality, and then eventually want to
see them all murdered in their sleep.
[snip a bit]
Post by Allen Bryan
What few people haven considered is that people are being uprooted at
an incredible rate. RJ says this over and over again but the
implications are more profound than just the migrations and army
movements. If somebody in the nineteenth century Traveled whole tribes
of Afghans into an Arkansas being invaded by a Mexican/Argentinian
alliance, with some Chinese wandering around and a Protestant preacher
raising up crowds of Jehovah's Witnesses, you'd have something
approaching the current situation in, say, Ghealdan. Now take away the
experience of other cultures made possible by modern technology...
I'd expect people to behave PRECISELY as RJ is depicting them.
Nevertheless, it's his job to _entertain_ us. If the accuracy of his
cultures leaves me wanting to throw his book against the wall, then he
should ditch the accuracy, or ditch the cultures. After half a dozen
books of this, I think it's pretty reasonable to say, "dude. You get an
F. Do better next time."

Not that I didn't enjoy KoD. I liked it. A lot, even. But some things
still grate.
--
Ian Hurst
John S Novak, III
2005-10-20 04:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allen Bryan
Post by John S Novak, III
All the cultures there are incredibly authoritarian. They know it, they
revel in it, they consider it RIght and Good. And each culture is
introduced in the same standard pattern-- you meet an abnormally
tolerant specimen (and when you consider Aviendha in that group, that's
saying something) then see the rest of the rotten culture, then see them
cling to custom in the face of all reality, and then eventually want to
see them all murdered in their sleep.
And the really profoundly sad thing is -- most cultures in history were
like this. Fortunately, there is an antidote. Peddlers, gleemen,
Tinkers, traders, seamen (other than Aath'an Miere, who are nonetheless
tolerant of the Amayar), Aes Sedai; anyone who has extended contact
with multiple cultures is distinctly more tolerant than people who have
lived in one village or one province their whole life.
[...]
Post by Allen Bryan
I'd expect people to behave PRECISELY as RJ is depicting them.
So would I.
Doesn't mean I want to read about it for THIS FUCKING LONG!
--
John S. Novak, III
The Humblest Man On The Net
Corey Nash
2005-10-20 13:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Allen Bryan
I'd expect people to behave PRECISELY as RJ is depicting them.
So would I.
Doesn't mean I want to read about it for THIS FUCKING LONG!
Yet you do - as do we all. What does that say about us?
--
Corey Nash
j***@cub.kcnet.org
2005-10-18 02:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Jim Hill
Post by Michael Hoye
Because it's all about knocking them back in line, not knocking some
sense into them?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. One does not develop strong independent
thinkers by beating the new blood into instant unquestioning obedience
leavened with a dash of ritualis and tradition.
Yes. And all the cultures in the books that do this, know this.
Despite their lamentations about the loss of knowledge and the lack of
progress (mainly in the White Tower, since they're the only ones with a
keen sense of what they've lost) they do it anyway.
All the cultures there are incredibly authoritarian. They know it, they
revel in it, they consider it RIght and Good. And each culture is
introduced in the same standard pattern-- you meet an abnormally
tolerant specimen (and when you consider Aviendha in that group, that's
saying something) then see the rest of the rotten culture, then see them
cling to custom in the face of all reality, and then eventually want to
see them all murdered in their sleep.
When put in this context? Maybe the *gasp* moment was not to gasp in
horror. But rather gasp in relief that we were not subjected to yet
another culture that shoved its self-perceived superiority down the
collective throat. Gone the smugly indifferent Amayar elder wise
women. Gone the annoying leap from sensibility to authoriatarian rigid
adherence and rascism. All in one massive sudden death movement.

That or consider the mass suicide the ultimate expression of rascist
isolationism. The grand expression in cultural hubris. So while not
exactly murdered in their sleep, Jordan did Jonestown the Amayar before
we had to endure yet another round of "I'm going to humiliate and
degrade you because you are not one of us. Can never be one of us.
Don't want to be one of us. But still it's for your own good."

---
JSH
Erica Sadun
2005-10-19 18:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Jim Hill
Post by Michael Hoye
Because it's all about knocking them back in line, not knocking some
sense into them?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. One does not develop strong independent
thinkers by beating the new blood into instant unquestioning obedience
leavened with a dash of ritualis and tradition.
Yes. And all the cultures in the books that do this, know this.
Despite their lamentations about the loss of knowledge and the lack of
progress (mainly in the White Tower, since they're the only ones with a
keen sense of what they've lost) they do it anyway.
All the cultures there are incredibly authoritarian. They know it, they
revel in it, they consider it RIght and Good. And each culture is
introduced in the same standard pattern-- you meet an abnormally
tolerant specimen (and when you consider Aviendha in that group, that's
saying something) then see the rest of the rotten culture, then see them
cling to custom in the face of all reality, and then eventually want to
see them all murdered in their sleep.
It's the Citadel as worldview. What would happen if the
little pink parade ground became a world-wide stage.

-- Erica
--
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow man.
The rest is commentary."
loial
2005-10-20 02:37:48 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Jim Hill
Post by Michael Hoye
Because it's all about knocking them back in line, not knocking some
sense into them?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. One does not develop strong independent
thinkers by beating the new blood into instant unquestioning obedience
leavened with a dash of ritualis and tradition.
The Tower's purpose is NOT to "develop strong independent thinkers".
It's all about discipline, training women to be powerful Aes Sedai, who
won't crack when the going gets tough. Despite the division between AS
right now, the Tower is about consensus, unity, not developing strong
INDEPENDENT thinkers. (Similarly, military bootcamps aren't about
developing strong independent thinkers, but breaking down self and
rebuilding a disciplined team who can work together to survive battle
and to achieve victory, if possible.)
John S Novak, III
2005-10-20 04:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by loial
Post by Jim Hill
Yeah, that's pretty much it. One does not develop strong independent
thinkers by beating the new blood into instant unquestioning obedience
leavened with a dash of ritualis and tradition.
The Tower's purpose is NOT to "develop strong independent thinkers".
It's all about discipline, training women to be powerful Aes Sedai, who
won't crack when the going gets tough. Despite the division between AS
right now, the Tower is about consensus, unity, not developing strong
INDEPENDENT thinkers. (Similarly, military bootcamps aren't about
developing strong independent thinkers, but breaking down self and
rebuilding a disciplined team who can work together to survive battle
and to achieve victory, if possible.)
Flawed analogy-- bootcamps are designed to make entry-level soldiers.
Officers in modern, westernized militaries are expected-- demanded-- to
display a little more initiative and creativity.

The White Tower, to be effective, should be modelling itself on an
officers' training course, not a boot camp, although it's unlikely that
anywhere in Randland would have reached that conclusion. Again, what is
realisstic is not always interesting.
--
John S. Novak, III
The Humblest Man On The Net
m***@cc.hut.fi
2005-10-20 21:18:48 UTC
Permalink
John S Novak, III <***@panix.com> wrote:
: Flawed analogy-- bootcamps are designed to make entry-level soldiers.
: Officers in modern, westernized militaries are expected-- demanded-- to
: display a little more initiative and creativity.

: The White Tower, to be effective, should be modelling itself on an
: officers' training course, not a boot camp, although it's unlikely that
: anywhere in Randland would have reached that conclusion. Again, what is
: realisstic is not always interesting.

And Ishmael would definitely have nothing to do with things being
this bad in the White Tower?

I see this feature of the cultures to be an essential part of
Randland and the world would be much less and much worse without
it. Mileages vary, especially on these kinds of things.
--
Mikko Särelä
"Happiness is not a destination, but a way of travelling." Aristotle
j***@cub.kcnet.org
2005-10-20 04:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Liguori
<snip>
Post by Jim Hill
Post by Michael Hoye
Because it's all about knocking them back in line, not knocking some
sense into them?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. One does not develop strong independent
thinkers by beating the new blood into instant unquestioning obedience
leavened with a dash of ritualis and tradition.
The Tower's purpose is NOT to "develop strong independent thinkers".
It's all about discipline, training women to be powerful Aes Sedai, who
won't crack when the going gets tough. Despite the division between AS
right now, the Tower is about consensus, unity, not developing strong
INDEPENDENT thinkers. (Similarly, military bootcamps aren't about
developing strong independent thinkers, but breaking down self and
rebuilding a disciplined team who can work together to survive battle
and to achieve victory, if possible.)
Except that the Tower does not have a structured hierarchy of commmand.
Yes it bases deference on strength and then age. But customs still
allow that every sister can go her own way and custom even goes so far
as to forbid asking another sister what she is up to. So your argument
actually underscores the fact at how poor a paradigm the Tower is as a
training facility. Sisters most often perform their tasks in the
outside world on their own. One advisor per ruler. A Tower advisor
obviously should have the Tower midnset, but she also has to have the
ability to think on her own. Have initiative. For the most part,
sisters are diplomats. They are not foot soldiers. Diplomats are not
sent to boot camp.

---
JSH
j***@cub.kcnet.org
2005-10-20 04:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Liguori
<snip>
Post by Jim Hill
Post by Michael Hoye
Because it's all about knocking them back in line, not knocking some
sense into them?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. One does not develop strong independent
thinkers by beating the new blood into instant unquestioning obedience
leavened with a dash of ritualis and tradition.
The Tower's purpose is NOT to "develop strong independent thinkers".
It's all about discipline, training women to be powerful Aes Sedai, who
won't crack when the going gets tough. Despite the division between AS
right now, the Tower is about consensus, unity, not developing strong
INDEPENDENT thinkers. (Similarly, military bootcamps aren't about
developing strong independent thinkers, but breaking down self and
rebuilding a disciplined team who can work together to survive battle
and to achieve victory, if possible.)
Except that the Tower does not have a structured hierarchy of commmand.
Yes it bases deference on strength and then age. But customs still
allow that every sister can go her own way and custom even goes so far
as to forbid asking another sister what she is up to. So your argument
actually underscores the fact at how poor a paradigm the Tower is as a
training facility. Sisters most often perform their tasks in the
outside world on their own. One advisor per ruler. A Tower advisor
obviously should have the Tower midnset, but she also has to have the
ability to think on her own. Have initiative. For the most part,
sisters are diplomats. They are not foot soldiers. Diplomats are not
sent to boot camp.

---
JSH
Jasper Janssen
2005-10-21 16:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
It certainly involves training in torture.
Assuming the Wise Ones are about the sake as the Aes Sedai, it probably
involves lesbianism under some oh-so-cutesy name like bed-of-itchy-sand-
friends. And bondage.
Not bondage explicitly so much, but a lot of training in how to look like
a sub.

Jasper
Karproxid
2005-10-16 07:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bruce
Space of spoilers.
No one can just mentally put themselves in the place of another
character for even a few seconds. This is just incredibly annoying
and frustrating.
It means that everyone assumes that they're right and everyone else is
wrong. That they know everything and everyone else knows nothing.
That
Post by Michael Bruce
their cause is righteous and important, and everyone else's is
trivial.

If you look at the U.S., specifically the religious right and other
likeminded people on all sides of the spectrum, it is easy to see that
at least 60% of the people of the U.S. act this way. The more steeped
you are in religion or any ideology, the more you act exactly this way.
I see it every day, from Jehovah's Witlesses and m*rm*ns knocking at
the door--to proclaim their 'trvth', to even how people act at their
jobs in the office.

Seeing how the magic system in randland is essentiallty their religious
system, I would highly expect people who are deeply steeped in the
magic system to tend to act this way.
Post by Michael Bruce
Practically everyone in the series needs to be beaten in the head with a
fucking baseball bat. The world is ending, you idiots! Get it
together!
Practically everyone in the U.S. needs to be beaten in the head with a
fucking baseball bat--especially Bush voters and republicans, and
everyone else who puts ideology ahead of competence or correctness.



-----sig-----
However, on religious issues there can be little or no compromise.
There is no position on which people are so immovable as their
religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a
debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this
supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on
one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are
growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with
wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following
their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups
on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a
loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the
political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if
I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.'
Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to
claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even
more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every
religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my
vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will
fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral
convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.'
-- Sen. Barry Goldwater (R)
Karproxid
2005-10-16 12:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bruce
Space of spoilers.
Post by John S Novak, III
Although it touches on something that has grown to irritate me steadily
throughout the series, namely, the unbelieveably authoritarian and
custom-bound nature of... pretty much every society out there in the
books.
I'm hard pressed to think of a moment when anyone from non-central
Randland ever once stopped and thought, "Wow. I'm seven thousand miles
from home, alone or nearly alone among millions of strangers.
Maybe I
Post by Michael Bruce
Post by John S Novak, III
should, you know, make an effort to understand and perhaps slightly
conform to their customs. Maybe that'd make sense, hmm?"
I think it ties into my biggest objection in the whole series, which
actually popped out of the pages and kicked me in the nose when I read
a couple of the previous volumes in prep for this one (it didn't work;
I still just ignored about 75% of the names mentioned): no one
appears
Post by Michael Bruce
to have any capacity for empathy, of any kind whatsoever.
No one can just mentally put themselves in the place of another
character for even a few seconds. This is just incredibly annoying
and frustrating.
What you and JSN are looking for is Empathy and Sympathy. But your
expections for these concepts are based on faulty thinking, here's why:

Reflecting first on the differences between empathy and sympathy I will
briefly quote another famous author, David Brin:

"Here's another, related connection. Empathy is NOT the same thing as
sympathy.

Empathy is the power to understand the thoughts and feelings of others.
It is a pragmatic tool that is needed by hunters, like tigers, who must
try to think like their prey. Empathy is frightening when it is set in
a fierce, zero sum game.

But in a surfeit? Amid positive-sum games? When appetites are satisfied
and fear is low?

satiation + empathy => sympathy.

Your ancestors, upon hearing of dolphins stranded on a beach, would
have run toward them. As YOU would, today, upon hearing the same news.

Only with very different intent. Think about that."

From:
http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2005/09/more-on-horizons-roots-of-sympathy
.html

Now with this in mind think about empathy in human society.
Historically there hasn't been a whole lot. When you think of people
whom you would tend to describe as having the most empathy you probably
think about tree-hugging hippies. The people whom you would describe
who are least empathetic would probably be far-right bible or koran
thumping fundamentalists.

Empathy in our modern western world is primarily the product of
enlightenment values, liberal democracy, and satiation (which Dr. Brin
as describes in that same link). You don't tend to see a whole lot of
empathy in the fundamentalist croud--indeed they tend to want to undo
the enlightenment altogether! When was the last time you saw a
far-right-wing-republican environmentalist? When you believe that the
world is going to end, and all those other people, animals, plants,
environmental areas, are going to be destroyed, you don't tend to care
what happens to them.

An Aside: when talking to my Jehovah's Witless relatives about 9/11,
one thing was clear: the people who died in the WTC would have died at
armageddon anyway, so it was plain as day they had no empathy or
sympathy for those people who died. No sadness, no sorrow. Like they
saw what happened and just shrugged their shoulders.

Consider: hungry people in africa and asia aren't going to care a whole
lot about species going extinct or saving the rainforest. Likewise you
don't see a whole lot of empathy from terrorists or warlords or
occupied people. They, like Dick Cheney, have other priorities.

Now back to WoT: It's clear that the societies in randland are
primarily based around pre-gunpowder midieval (sp) europe with a
smattering of technologies up to some eighteen century stuff, but
primarilly a society based around 12th and 13th century europe. What
were the kinds of things that were going on in that time period?
Crusades. Inquisitions. People burned at the stake for heresies.
Plague. Thirty years wars. Not a period of time where the common man
would have developed very much empathy, let alone sympathy. Sticking
out tended to lead to being burned at the stake or being drawn and
quartered. The average person was illiterate and looked to their
religious athorities for pretty much everything. The acadamies,
monastaries and 'universities' were _not_ bastions of
hippie-liberalism.

I don't think crusaders riding/marching for jerusalem had a whole lot
of empathy. Nor did mongol hordes sacking their way across asia /
europe. Nor did roman legions. Or other armed groups marching about
the continent taking thing by force.

As for the common man they were ussually serfs or from trade guilds.
He wouldn't have traveled very far in his life, he would likely have
been illiterate, and would have had little chance of developing a whole
lot of empathy.

I point out these things because that is what RJ has primariily based
his fantasy world around. Where exactly are the character in randland
going to develop their empathy from? The problem is when people try
and fit modern western values and ways of thinking into a fictional
society that is at least four hundrend to seven hundred years behind
ours. It doesn't work. People in randland wouldn't think about things
the way we do, neither would europeans five hundred years ago. Slavery
was still being practiced 150 years ago. Their are lot of people
(mostly right-wing-nuts) who would go back to slavery and segregation
if they could. 25% of americans still are against interracial
marriage. The Difference between a far-right-nut and a far-left-nut is
one one of those has empathy, one doesn't.

So in short, in the kind of world setting that RJ has set up, I
personally wouldn't expect very many people have a very well developed
level of empathy, let alone sympathy. It's just not the right type of
society where they would develop very far.

Remember: RJ is supposed to be a big history buff. Understanding how
someone else thinks and feels does not equal treating someone even
common curtesy. Our 'nobles' act exactly the same as randland nobles
for the most part. It's not about the understanding. They just
__don't care__. (Still, heck I'd rather live in Present-day Randland
than 13th century europe).

Lastly, going off on a wild tangent: In our world we have an Armagedon
prophecy where God comes and kills all the unbelievers. In Randland we
have a Tarmon Gai'don prophecy where the devil comes and kills all the
believers. A nice kind of symmetry if you think about it.
Karproxid
2005-10-16 12:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Resend beacuse post got screwed up. Lets Try this again.
Post by Michael Bruce
Space of spoilers.
Post by John S Novak, III
Although it touches on something that has grown to irritate me steadily
throughout the series, namely, the unbelieveably authoritarian and
custom-bound nature of... pretty much every society out there in the
books.
I'm hard pressed to think of a moment when anyone from non-central
Randland ever once stopped and thought, "Wow. I'm seven thousand miles
from home, alone or nearly alone among millions of strangers.
Maybe I
Post by Michael Bruce
Post by John S Novak, III
should, you know, make an effort to understand and perhaps slightly
conform to their customs. Maybe that'd make sense, hmm?"
I think it ties into my biggest objection in the whole series, which
actually popped out of the pages and kicked me in the nose when I read
a couple of the previous volumes in prep for this one (it didn't work;
I still just ignored about 75% of the names mentioned): no one
appears
Post by Michael Bruce
to have any capacity for empathy, of any kind whatsoever.
No one can just mentally put themselves in the place of another
character for even a few seconds. This is just incredibly annoying
and frustrating.
What you and JSN are looking for is Empathy and Sympathy. But your
expections for these concepts are based on faulty thinking, here's why:

Reflecting first on the differences between empathy and sympathy I will
briefly quote another famous author, David Brin:

"Here's another, related connection. Empathy is NOT the same thing as
sympathy.

Empathy is the power to understand the thoughts and feelings of others.
It is a pragmatic tool that is needed by hunters, like tigers, who must
try to think like their prey. Empathy is frightening when it is set in
a fierce, zero sum game.

But in a surfeit? Amid positive-sum games? When appetites are satisfied
and fear is low?

satiation + empathy => sympathy.

Your ancestors, upon hearing of dolphins stranded on a beach, would
have run toward them. As YOU would, today, upon hearing the same news.

Only with very different intent. Think about that."

From:
davidbrin.blogspot.com/2005/09/more-on-horizons-roots-of-sympathy.html

Now with this in mind think about empathy in human society.
Historically there hasn't been a whole lot. When you think of people
whom you would tend to describe as having the most empathy you probably
think about tree-hugging hippies. The people whom you would describe
who are least empathetic would probably be far-right bible or koran
thumping fundamentalists.

Empathy in our modern western world is primarily the product of
enlightenment values, liberal democracy, and satiation (which Dr. Brin
as describes in that same link). You don't tend to see a whole lot of
empathy in the fundamentalist croud--indeed they tend to want to undo
the enlightenment altogether! When was the last time you saw a
far-right-wing-republican environmentalist? When you believe that the
world is going to end, and all those other people, animals, plants,
environmental areas, are going to be destroyed, you don't tend to care
what happens to them.

An Aside: when talking to my Jehovah's Witless relatives about 9/11,
one thing was clear: the people who died in the WTC would have died at
armageddon anyway, so it was plain as day they had no empathy or
sympathy for those people who died. No sadness, no sorrow. Like they
saw what happened and just shrugged their shoulders.

Consider: hungry people in africa and asia aren't going to care a whole
lot about species going extinct or saving the rainforest. Likewise you
don't see a whole lot of empathy from terrorists or warlords or
occupied people. They, like Dick Cheney, have other priorities.

Now back to WoT: It's clear that the societies in randland are
primarily based around pre-gunpowder midieval (sp) europe with a
smattering of technologies up to some eighteen century stuff, but
primarilly a society based around 12th and 13th century europe. What
were the kinds of things that were going on in that time period?
Crusades. Inquisitions. People burned at the stake for heresies.
Plague. Thirty years wars. Not a period of time where the common man
would have developed very much empathy, let alone sympathy. Sticking
out tended to lead to being burned at the stake or being drawn and
quartered. The average person was illiterate and looked to their
religious athorities for pretty much everything. The acadamies,
monastaries and 'universities' were _not_ bastions of
hippie-liberalism.

I don't think crusaders riding/marching for jerusalem had a whole lot
of empathy. Nor did mongol hordes sacking their way across asia /
europe. Nor did roman legions. Or other armed groups marching about
the continent taking thing by force.

As for the common man they were ussually serfs or from trade guilds.
He wouldn't have traveled very far in his life, he would likely have
been illiterate, and would have had little chance of developing a whole
lot of empathy.

I point out these things because that is what RJ has primariily based
his fantasy world around. Where exactly are the character in randland
going to develop their empathy from? The problem is when people try
and fit modern western values and ways of thinking into a fictional
society that is at least four hundrend to seven hundred years behind
ours. It doesn't work. People in randland wouldn't think about things
the way we do, neither would europeans five hundred years ago. Slavery
was still being practiced 150 years ago. Their are lot of people
(mostly right-wing-nuts) who would go back to slavery and segregation
if they could. 25% of americans still are against interracial
marriage. The Difference between a far-right-nut and a far-left-nut is
one one of those has empathy, one doesn't.

So in short, in the kind of world setting that RJ has set up, I
personally wouldn't expect very many people have a very well developed
level of empathy, let alone sympathy. It's just not the right type of
society where they would develop very far.

Remember: RJ is supposed to be a big history buff. Understanding how
someone else thinks and feels does not equal treating someone even
common curtesy. Our 'nobles' act exactly the same as randland nobles
for the most part. It's not about the understanding. They just
__don't care__. (Still, heck I'd rather live in Present-day Randland
than 13th century europe).

Lastly, going off on a wild tangent: In our world we have an Armagedon
prophecy where God comes and kills all the unbelievers. In Randland we
have a Tarmon Gai'don prophecy where the devil comes and kills all the
believers. A nice kind of symmetry if you think about it.
Danil
2005-10-19 00:27:27 UTC
Permalink
[Response to Novak below]




























John S Novak, III says...
Post by John S Novak, III
And likewise, the customs never ever get questioned. This hit home when
the Wise Ones up and decided that, Car'a'carn's main squeeze or not,
Last Battle around the corner or not, extremely powerful channeler with
a major new talent that could help defeat the Dark One notwithstanding,
no, Aviendha's going to finish her piddly ass Wise One training, AND
SHE'S GOING TO DO IT RIGHT NOW, DAMMIT!
And Aviendha submits! It never once occurs to her to say, "Stuff it. I
have more important things to do, bitches. See you after I've helped
win the Last Battle. Kthxbye."
Two objections.

One - she's not doing anything more important. She's been taking baths
with Elayne for three damn books.

Two - if the training waits, it doesn't happen at all. "A remnant of a
remnant" and all that. The Wise Ones know that they are all toast;
anything that Avienda doesn't learn now, she's going to have to learn on
her own afterwards; because she is the only one strong enough to survive
what is coming.
John S Novak, III
2005-10-19 05:46:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Danil
[Response to Novak below]
John S Novak, III says...
Post by John S Novak, III
And likewise, the customs never ever get questioned. This hit home when
the Wise Ones up and decided that, Car'a'carn's main squeeze or not,
Last Battle around the corner or not, extremely powerful channeler with
a major new talent that could help defeat the Dark One notwithstanding,
no, Aviendha's going to finish her piddly ass Wise One training, AND
SHE'S GOING TO DO IT RIGHT NOW, DAMMIT!
And Aviendha submits! It never once occurs to her to say, "Stuff it. I
have more important things to do, bitches. See you after I've helped
win the Last Battle. Kthxbye."
Two objections.
One - she's not doing anything more important. She's been taking baths
with Elayne for three damn books.
Except that the Wise Ones interrupt her in the process of indetifying a
bunch of ter'angreal which could be, y'know, sort of important, maybe.
--
John S. Novak, III
The Humblest Man On The Net
Danil
2005-10-19 06:30:40 UTC
Permalink
John S Novak, III says...
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Danil
[Response to Novak below]
John S Novak, III says...
Post by John S Novak, III
And likewise, the customs never ever get questioned. This hit home when
the Wise Ones up and decided that, Car'a'carn's main squeeze or not,
Last Battle around the corner or not, extremely powerful channeler with
a major new talent that could help defeat the Dark One notwithstanding,
no, Aviendha's going to finish her piddly ass Wise One training, AND
SHE'S GOING TO DO IT RIGHT NOW, DAMMIT!
And Aviendha submits! It never once occurs to her to say, "Stuff it. I
have more important things to do, bitches. See you after I've helped
win the Last Battle. Kthxbye."
Two objections.
One - she's not doing anything more important. She's been taking baths
with Elayne for three damn books.
Except that the Wise Ones interrupt her in the process of indetifying a
bunch of ter'angreal which could be, y'know, sort of important, maybe.
Maybe vs. is. I wouldn't expect Nandera and Dorindha to allow Avi to
skimp on her obligation to her people just because Jordan can't plot a
decent instruction manual for the magic wands.
Frank van Schie
2005-10-19 13:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Danil
Two objections.
One - she's not doing anything more important. She's been taking baths
with Elayne for three damn books.
Two - if the training waits, it doesn't happen at all. "A remnant of a
remnant" and all that. The Wise Ones know that they are all toast;
anything that Avienda doesn't learn now, she's going to have to learn on
her own afterwards; because she is the only one strong enough to survive
what is coming.
Aviendha won't be the remnant, per se. The Shaido will, being the
remains of the Shaido. Therava's idea about surviving the Last Battle
and having a new Shaido nation emerge after generations. She's isolating
the Shaido from Tarmon Gai'don.

The current "true" Aiel will, by extension, all die, or serve this new
Shaido nation in guidance, and of course Aviendha will follow either of
these paths.
--
Frank
m***@yahoo.com
2005-10-11 21:59:23 UTC
Permalink
2) This book was Sappho-rific! Lesbians Ahoy! Really. Firstly. RJ has
all but laid it out on the table that virtually every novice/Accepted
has some hot girl on girl action in the Tower, and that it's merely a
childish fling, although some like *Galina* never put it aside. -
Yes, Tarna comments that Galina put the moves on her after she was
raised, but Tarna poltitely declined. Also, Elaida and Meidani (the
Rebel Grey "Ferret") may have had a fling as well, and while we are at
it, and not terribly surprising, but homosexuality seems not uncommon
among the Maidens of the Spear - Arella Shiago of Cha Faile has taken
to sleeping with the Shaido Maiden who took her as gai'shan - OTOH,
Lacile Aldorwhin has taken to doing the same with the Aielman who took
her as well.
However, having said all that, the revelation about Galina particularly
makes me think that RJ is definitely influenced by his readers, no
matter what he claims. Galina's vaguely lascivious comments regarding
Erian, way back when, sparked discussion of her orientation, and now he
sees fit to set the record, uh, straight.
Not to mention Aran'gar and Graendal, plus the fact that Delana has set
out a rumor which explains why she and Halima are so close, and it has
nothing to do with taking dictation or filing correspondences.
Am I the only one who'd like to see male homosexuality acknowledged? I
can think of only two small hints in the eleven books I've read. While
it does make sense that there would be more lesbian relationships in an
all-female society like the Aes Sedai and that since they are such a
central organization we'd learn of many of them, what about other
societies and countries? The Aiel have sister-wives but it seems no one
is considering a brother-husband. There's also a non-heterosexual Sea
Folk woman and a Cairhienin noblewoman, but I can't think of any male
character, however minor, who's hinted to be gay in more than a brief
barely there "perhaps that's why he doesn't want to rape me" kind of
way as with Faile and that Shaido. The prominence of lesbian
relationships and the near total absence of male homosexuality strikes
me as a bit... well, suspect. WOT has women who have sex with women but
end up with/really want men, women who have brief flings and do some
flirting, women in a non-consensual S/M relationship but there are no
healthy permanent relationships and nothing that might be uncomfortable
for the stererotypical heterosexual male who finds lesbians hot and
gays gross. I don't think the dominance of female POVs explains this
completely.
4) Similarly, RJ saw fit to clear up a few, umm, oversights in his
world set-up. We learn that the Tinkers *do* have a cultural method of
dealing with girls who can channel
This was first mentioned in New Spring, I believe, but I'm glad it and
the question of Malkieri sisters will both be clarified in the actual
series.
9) Nice character development on some of the Red Ajah. Nuances added
that make them less of a Feminazi Man-Hating Club. One still pays for
the educations of her nephews and cousins, another dates men, quietly,
a third still dotes on her father, etc. Oh, and Pevara has a last name,
but it is something long and convoluted like Maratavavni.
Very nice. I always thought they were a bit too extreme and if there's
one thing I like about the post-LOC books it's the introduction of
non-evil Reds.
10) Romanda gets a POV, and we finally get a slant on her that makes
her seem more human and less of a caricature. Plus, she's sharp and
instantly makes a connection between the deaths of Kairen, Anaiya and
Cabriana Mercandes that rings true and *actually* acts on it!
*gasp* Progress!
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Back in the 90s I made my own guesses about what the names of the
Forsaken might mean. Now my minor theory of nearly ten years turns out
to be true! Although, to go for the complete Planescape association,
she should be nicknamed whatever the Old Tongue term is for She Who
Flays.
15) Faile has finally reverted to the smart, capable and decent young
heroine she seemed during the Two Rivers campaign. She really has
acquired quite an entourage of her own. She also speaks the Old Tongue.
In a related note, Perrin defeats the Shaido with a stroke of genius.
I've always been inclined to defend them so it's good that they finally
get to do something worthwhile.
Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.
Ouch. Well, WOT needs the Stupid Perrin Moment of the Book.
Ken Gerrard
2005-10-14 05:37:13 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com writes:

[...]
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Am I the only one who'd like to see male homosexuality acknowledged?
No. I'm ripe for hot man-on-man action. (In more ways than one.)
Post by m***@yahoo.com
WOT has women who have sex with women but end up with/really want men,
women who have brief flings and do some flirting, women in a
non-consensual S/M relationship but there are no healthy permanent
relationships and nothing that might be uncomfortable for the
stererotypical heterosexual male who finds lesbians hot and gays gross.
Sadly, I suspect our beloved author might be such a male.
--
Ken Gerrard
***@nubule.nu
http://nubule.nu/
j***@cub.kcnet.org
2005-10-11 22:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Random spoilers in no particular order
1) I predicted (as did many of you) that Galad would challenge Eamon
Valda to a duel of honor over Morgase, and well, yeah. That happened.
2) This book was Sappho-rific! Lesbians Ahoy! Really. Firstly. RJ has
all but laid it out on the table that virtually every novice/Accepted
has some hot girl on girl action in the Tower, and that it's merely a
childish fling, although some like *Galina* never put it aside. -
Yes, Tarna comments that Galina put the moves on her after she was
raised, but Tarna poltitely declined. Also, Elaida and Meidani (the
Rebel Grey "Ferret") may have had a fling as well, and while we are at
it, and not terribly surprising, but homosexuality seems not uncommon
among the Maidens of the Spear - Arella Shiago of Cha Faile has taken
to sleeping with the Shaido Maiden who took her as gai'shan - OTOH,
Lacile Aldorwhin has taken to doing the same with the Aielman who took
her as well.
It was kind of a heavy-handed "all gays aren't bad...in fact! in fact!
they're all GAY". Amusing but unnecessary.
Post by r***@gmail.com
However, having said all that, the revelation about Galina particularly
makes me think that RJ is definitely influenced by his readers, no
matter what he claims. Galina's vaguely lascivious comments regarding
Erian, way back when, sparked discussion of her orientation, and now he
sees fit to set the record, uh, straight.
Yep.
Post by r***@gmail.com
Not to mention Aran'gar and Graendal, plus the fact that Delana has set
out a rumor which explains why she and Halima are so close, and it has
nothing to do with taking dictation or filing correspondences.
3) As a sop to John Hamby specifically, Bennae Sedai *finally* makes an
appearance! Plus, with her own last name, no less (that I forget) No
Serafelle, though. Lirene and Tsumata also show up. Tsutama is the new
Red Highest.
I thought of you of last week when I read this! Lots of new names.
Little to no strength issues and damn if we only got one more ferret
name.
Post by r***@gmail.com
4) Similarly, RJ saw fit to clear up a few, umm, oversights in his
world set-up. We learn that the Tinkers *do* have a cultural method of
dealing with girls who can channel, and yes, there is even a Malkieri
Aes Sedai! A somewhat less than stellar Green named Nacelle.
Apparently, there were many, but they all got themselves killed on
vigilante quests.
The tinker thing was mentioned in NS.
Post by r***@gmail.com
5) For that matter, we finally see some of the pocket refuge
communities of Malkieri! In related thoughts, Nynaeve rules. Trust me.
I was actually a bit underwhelmed by this moment. It was not a "kneel
to
the Dragon Reborn or Elayne smacking dow the five sisters in Ebou Dar
or Egwene seizing control of the Hall moment for me.
Post by r***@gmail.com
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
I was more startled by still how much remains. Well post-COT startled.
Post by r***@gmail.com
7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
the established story. Well done, RJ. Unfortunately, Vandene dies, and
she was always one of the more plausible and decent Aes Sedai figures.
Redemption is rather sweet.
Post by r***@gmail.com
8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.
I was much rather hoping for a bit more insight from the BA in this
section. The Guardwomen and the details on the male mercenaries was
bore-Ing. At least they all did not try on dresses and then take baths
together.
Post by r***@gmail.com
9) Nice character development on some of the Red Ajah. Nuances added
that make them less of a Feminazi Man-Hating Club. One still pays for
the educations of her nephews and cousins, another dates men, quietly,
a third still dotes on her father, etc. Oh, and Pevara has a last name,
but it is something long and convoluted like Maratavavni.
So does Beonin (a particular aspect of the plot I find hysterially
funny and way too implausible -- Beonin waits until now to tell Elaida
all the goodies? Riiiight). It will be interesting to see how the
fanboy Rand-Rulz club parses this type of info.
Post by r***@gmail.com
10) Romanda gets a POV, and we finally get a slant on her that makes
her seem more human and less of a caricature. Plus, she's sharp and
instantly makes a connection between the deaths of Kairen, Anaiya and
Cabriana Mercandes that rings true and *actually* acts on it!
I was disappointed with this one as well. Mat goes a courtin' and we
get Romanda-whirled. A little more depth and info would have been
nice. But at least there was something.
Post by r***@gmail.com
11) Oh, and Sharina Melloy is an organizational genius.
The first character with common sense AND no stupid prideful agenda
(like the Wise Ones, the windfinders, Cadsuane, and every other
practical woman Jordan invented and then continued to lower with
incredible levels of stupidity).
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
At this point, I could almost not care less about the Last Battle and
just want to see some serious development on this front. The whole
stew of Egwene, the BA hunters, the ferrets, Alviarin, possibly Mesaana
and of course the BA. Not to mention Elaida's got a brand new bag of
tricks now too!
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Not to mention the anticipation we now have of several chapters of
Semirhage staring stonily at Cadsuane. Yippee!
[snip on the grounds I refuse to discuss the most painfully drawnout
silly piece of contrived crap in the entire series]
Post by r***@gmail.com
16) Setalle Anan admits her status as a former Aes Sedai. No name,
though, but she is so totally Martine Jenata.
Yep.
Post by r***@gmail.com
17) Yay, the Seanchan Empress has a name, Radhannan, but don't bother
getting used to it.
Another bit of disappointment. Was looking forward to some real
Seanchan shennagins with the ultimate Mommy Dearest mounted on her
crystal goose box and the Most. Dysfunctional. Randland. Family. Ever.
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.
I was rather appalled that Jordan wants us to gasp at the silly
contrived vapid insanity of the Amayar and yet blithely has Perrin turn
into one of the most brainless idiots all over "all for Faile". At
this rate, Perrin is going to have Faile's head in a jar beside his
bed.
Post by r***@gmail.com
19) The Steward of the Dragon in Arad Doman will so obviously be Rodel
Ituralde.
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in both
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the five
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we see
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while Romanda
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus Romanda
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the Hall and
also First Weaver.
Yet another weak straw imo. Romanda's position of weakness is just not
that plausible to me, but he has been making up this whole Sitter
pattern thing on the fly so it was not as bad as I thought it might be.
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
This I actually liked.
Post by r***@gmail.com
I liked it, a lot. Stuff really happens. Characters develop (finally)
and acquire new dimensions. It's got a little bit of everything for
everyone. Tower foo. Derring-do. Battles, mysteries resolved, beloved
characters living up to their promise, etc.
I liked it....more than the last two. Even TPOD with its meandering
and Perrin silliness and Rand raving with no agenda, was better to me.
TPOD had some real moments of brilliance with the quick use of the Bowl
(the ride there sucked) and Egwene's grab for power. I think it is an
inherant flaw in such serial work that prevented this book, in part,
from having that level of detail that was meaningful as well as
interesting for me. Even after COT I thought it was much weaker than
the penultimate book in this series should be.
Post by r***@gmail.com
Hooray.
Yeah...yip.......ee. I guess.

---
JSH
e***@hotmail.com
2005-10-12 03:37:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Just maintaining some spolier space....
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Actualy I thought it was too quick. When I was reading the prologue I
thought that was going to move the story on miles and then the rest of
the book would be paced similar to the last 3.

But no everything happened at once. I had become used to spending 4-6
Chapters on a particular thread once he had moved there, as in previous
books, but in some cases he breaks to a whole new thread mid-chapter.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
Random spoilers in no particular order
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
This book went the other way. Aram got a whole page. Well, maybe a page
and a half. After all the portentious portents. Really.

Not that I am complainiang really. I preferred this to the last three,
where the only real thread I had any time for is the cleansing thread.
Everything else had me wanting to slap down one or two major
characters.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I was more startled by still how much remains. Well post-COT startled.
I think most groups are now ready for the last battle. The tower thing
is out of its holding pattern. The one thing that disturbs me is how
far Mat still has to travel.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
the established story. Well done, RJ. Unfortunately, Vandene dies, and
she was always one of the more plausible and decent Aes Sedai figures.
Redemption is rather sweet.
Post by r***@gmail.com
8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.
I was much rather hoping for a bit more insight from the BA in this
section. The Guardwomen and the details on the male mercenaries was
bore-Ing. At least they all did not try on dresses and then take baths
together.
Post by r***@gmail.com
9) Nice character development on some of the Red Ajah. Nuances added
that make them less of a Feminazi Man-Hating Club. One still pays for
the educations of her nephews and cousins, another dates men, quietly,
a third still dotes on her father, etc. Oh, and Pevara has a last name,
but it is something long and convoluted like Maratavavni.
So does Beonin (a particular aspect of the plot I find hysterially
funny and way too implausible -- Beonin waits until now to tell Elaida
all the goodies? Riiiight). It will be interesting to see how the
fanboy Rand-Rulz club parses this type of info.
I thought that was explained away by her oath of 'fealty' to Egwene as
the Amyrlin, which was only invalidated when she was captured. I have
yet to reread those parts in the otehr books to work out if it all
makes sense.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
11) Oh, and Sharina Melloy is an organizational genius.
The first character with common sense AND no stupid prideful agenda
(like the Wise Ones, the windfinders, Cadsuane, and every other
practical woman Jordan invented and then continued to lower with
incredible levels of stupidity).
Oh yes, Cadsuane plumbs new depths here with her counting the times
being rude. The negotiators just lost Rand the guaranteed support of
Tear, but they got his three requirements, so they did good.

Of course the same logic suggests that if they had negotiated away his
head on a plate, that would still have been a good deal because he
didn't explicitly tell them not to use his death as a bargaining chip.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
At this point, I could almost not care less about the Last Battle and
just want to see some serious development on this front. The whole
stew of Egwene, the BA hunters, the ferrets, Alviarin, possibly Mesaana
and of course the BA. Not to mention Elaida's got a brand new bag of
tricks now too!
All good, except:

Those infernal useless good-for-nothing hunters hit a dead end? There
are 200 sisters in the tower, highly factionalised. There are ~18 in
the hunter team now from memory, based on my recollection of
discussions of ambushing the BA high council. And they were guessing
the BA high council could be able to outnumber them?

That would suggest there is upwards of 10% of the tower that is black.
AT what point are these idiots going to simply start taking sisters 2-3
at a time and reapplying the oaths to them? They didn't have an issue
with this for the Salidar spies, but when it comes to the completely
factionised tower they are unwilling to take the logical approach?
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Actually we have a few examples in this book of the characters putting
themselves into jeapordy. True to form Rand and Mat have plans, and
true to form Elayne's plan basically sucks and she underestimates her
opponents.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Not to mention the anticipation we now have of several chapters of
Semirhage staring stonily at Cadsuane. Yippee!
Nah Demandred will show himself and free her. He's only got one book
left to make an entrance so it had better be impressive.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
17) Yay, the Seanchan Empress has a name, Radhannan, but don't bother
getting used to it.
ITYM 'had' a name.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Another bit of disappointment. Was looking forward to some real
Seanchan shennagins with the ultimate Mommy Dearest mounted on her
crystal goose box and the Most. Dysfunctional. Randland. Family. Ever.
I think that's unfair. I thought Tuon's family was totally functional,
just by a different ruleset to the norm. But everyone seemed consistant
with the familial logic. As opposed to say the royal house of Andor.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.
I was rather appalled that Jordan wants us to gasp at the silly
contrived vapid insanity of the Amayar and yet blithely has Perrin turn
into one of the most brainless idiots all over "all for Faile". At
this rate, Perrin is going to have Faile's head in a jar beside his
bed.
Oh come on people. Yes Perrin gave them Damane. What was he supposed to
do with hundreds of channeling Shaido who had been taking people as
slaves and killing left right and center? He didn't have enough
channelers to shield them, and without that he couldn't contain them.
This was the only method of imprisoning them, and his only other option
was killing them. He had already depleted the local forkroot supply.

Personally I would probably have done the same.

Mat, he seemed disturbed when the channelers were leashed, and
negotiated them out of it as quickly as possible. He does seem to
appreciate that Tuon has a differing worldview without necessarily
understanding it.

Rand tried freeing Damane, and had seen the results. You cannot force a
person to be free, you can only give them the opportunity. And seeing
the damane's reaction when it was suggested, they had made their
choices.

And I find myself agreeing with the Seanchan philosophy. Unleashed
female channelers do more harm than good.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
This I actually liked.
Post by r***@gmail.com
I liked it, a lot. Stuff really happens. Characters develop (finally)
and acquire new dimensions. It's got a little bit of everything for
everyone. Tower foo. Derring-do. Battles, mysteries resolved, beloved
characters living up to their promise, etc.
I liked it....more than the last two. Even TPOD with its meandering
and Perrin silliness and Rand raving with no agenda, was better to me.
TPOD had some real moments of brilliance with the quick use of the Bowl
(the ride there sucked) and Egwene's grab for power. I think it is an
inherant flaw in such serial work that prevented this book, in part,
from having that level of detail that was meaningful as well as
interesting for me. Even after COT I thought it was much weaker than
the penultimate book in this series should be.
I think if more of this book had happened in CoT, they could both have
been great. As it is this one is the best since LoC, and gives taht one
a run for its money.

Up until this book, I looked on the Seanchan as bad or nasty or not
quite getting it, in part because Semirhage/Suroth were running the
show.

Now I think the world could do a lot worse than have Tuon subjugate the
lands and rule while sending the armies to help Rand under Mat. That
final meeting with Suroth was golden. The good guys need more like her.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
Hooray.
Yeah...yip.......ee. I guess.
---
JSH
Scott Lurndal
2005-10-12 21:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Just maintaining some spolier space....
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Not to mention the anticipation we now have of several chapters of
Semirhage staring stonily at Cadsuane. Yippee!
Nah Demandred will show himself and free her. He's only got one book
left to make an entrance so it had better be impressive.
You don't think he made entrance with the final bit? That phrase
Taim uses sounds awfully familiar. Sure RJ says T != D, but maybe
he lied?
namo
2005-10-13 13:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Nah Demandred will show himself and free her. He's only got one book
left to make an entrance so it had better be impressive.
You don't think he made entrance with the final bit? That phrase
Taim uses sounds awfully familiar. Sure RJ says T != D, but maybe
he lied?
No, this is definitely Taim positionning himself in the race to be Naeblis !
I had hoped he was not a DF and just too ambitious for his own good, but it
seems he'll be at the head of a good amount of Black Tower Dreadlords.
Tamyrlin79
2005-10-14 18:57:16 UTC
Permalink
That final meeting with Suroth was golden.
Indeed. I think my favorite lines in the whole book was Suroth's
judgment by Tuon:

"It is well known that Zaired Elbar was Suroth's man completely. He did
nothing that she did not order. Therefore Suroth Sabelle Meldarath is
no more. This da'covale will will serve the Deathwatch Guard as they
wish until her hair has grown enough for her to be decent when she is
sent to the block for sale."
David Chapman
2005-10-14 23:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tamyrlin79
That final meeting with Suroth was golden.
Indeed. I think my favorite lines in the whole book was
Because none of us give a shit about huge spoilers, of course.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Dave Rothgery
2005-10-15 01:05:18 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@pipex.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...
Post by David Chapman
Post by Tamyrlin79
That final meeting with Suroth was golden.
Indeed. I think my favorite lines in the whole book was
Because none of us give a shit about huge spoilers, of course.
And you're reading a thread with *SPOILERS* in the title if you care
about spoilers... err... why, exactly?
--
Dave Rothgery
http://drmisc.blogspot.com
Ash
2005-10-15 08:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Rothgery
says...
Post by David Chapman
Post by Tamyrlin79
That final meeting with Suroth was golden.
Indeed. I think my favorite lines in the whole book was
Because none of us give a shit about huge spoilers, of course.
And you're reading a thread with *SPOILERS* in the title if you care
about spoilers... err... why, exactly?
Maybe he is using Thunderbird or Mozilla
David Chapman
2005-10-15 09:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Dave Rothgery
And you're reading a thread with *SPOILERS* in the title if you care
about spoilers... err... why, exactly?
Maybe he is using Thunderbird or Mozilla
Not personally, but some people are. Leaving a nice big patch of white
space is only polite, especially when it had already been put in for you.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Tamyrlin79
2005-10-15 04:22:11 UTC
Permalink
If you did, you wouldn't be reading the huge thread with a huge
"*SPOILERS*" in the title, now would you?
Old Toby
2005-10-15 19:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tamyrlin79
That final meeting with Suroth was golden.
Indeed. I think my favorite lines in the whole book was Suroth's
"It is well known that Zaired Elbar was Suroth's man completely. He did
nothing that she did not order. Therefore Suroth Sabelle Meldarath is
no more. This da'covale will will serve the Deathwatch Guard as they
wish until her hair has grown enough for her to be decent when she is
sent to the block for sale."
Err, unless I'm misinterpreting, she basically sentenced
Suroth to being gang raped by a small army, before being
sold into slavery. When I read that I had two thoughts:

1) There are some things you just don't do. Even to a
piece of shit like Suroth.

and

2) She's going to survive? She's still going to be
around to potentially make trouble? For all that
she will be humiliated and punished, she basically
_gets away_.


Old Toby
Least Known Dog on the Net
Michael Meier
2005-10-16 08:54:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:26:41 GMT, Old Toby
Post by Old Toby
Post by Tamyrlin79
That final meeting with Suroth was golden.
Indeed. I think my favorite lines in the whole book was Suroth's
"It is well known that Zaired Elbar was Suroth's man completely. He did
nothing that she did not order. Therefore Suroth Sabelle Meldarath is
no more. This da'covale will will serve the Deathwatch Guard as they
wish until her hair has grown enough for her to be decent when she is
sent to the block for sale."
Err, unless I'm misinterpreting, she basically sentenced
Suroth to being gang raped by a small army, before being
1) There are some things you just don't do. Even to a
piece of shit like Suroth.
I never got the impression she is about to be raped. Tuon made it quite
clear to Mat what she thought of men forcing themselves upon women in
WH.
Post by Old Toby
and
2) She's going to survive? She's still going to be
around to potentially make trouble? For all that
she will be humiliated and punished, she basically
_gets away_.
How on earth will Suroth get away. She ultimately failed as a Darkfriend
at an assigned task, and she isn't important enough to warrant rescue.
Though I wonder what will happen to Liandrin. One seeker (Alumurat Mor?)
knows she can channel. Will we see Her collared and tamed by Tuon??
Frank van Schie
2005-10-17 11:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Meier
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:26:41 GMT, Old Toby
Post by Old Toby
Err, unless I'm misinterpreting, she basically sentenced
Suroth to being gang raped by a small army, before being
1) There are some things you just don't do. Even to a
piece of shit like Suroth.
I never got the impression she is about to be raped. Tuon made it quite
clear to Mat what she thought of men forcing themselves upon women in
WH.
Da'covale aren't women, they're property. Meaning she can just turn off
the humanity in her perception of someone.
David Chapman
2005-10-17 13:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Michael Meier
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:26:41 GMT, Old Toby
I never got the impression she is about to be raped. Tuon made it quite
clear to Mat what she thought of men forcing themselves upon women in
WH.
Da'covale aren't women, they're property.
Bayle Domon is da'covale, but Egeanin doesn't think of him as property.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Frank van Schie
2005-10-17 18:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Michael Meier
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:26:41 GMT, Old Toby
I never got the impression she is about to be raped. Tuon made it quite
clear to Mat what she thought of men forcing themselves upon women in
WH.
Da'covale aren't women, they're property.
Bayle Domon is da'covale, but Egeanin doesn't think of him as property.
Da'covale is property by default. "One who is owned".

She made him da'covale because she wanted him safe and kept to herself,
I think. So it's like a pretense.

Besides, not having been born a noble or channeler means she might have
some common sense, although many of the commoners haven't exactly shown
much...
--
Frank
Michael Meier
2005-10-19 09:42:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:42:23 +0200, Frank van Schie
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Michael Meier
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:26:41 GMT, Old Toby
Post by Old Toby
Err, unless I'm misinterpreting, she basically sentenced
Suroth to being gang raped by a small army, before being
1) There are some things you just don't do. Even to a
piece of shit like Suroth.
I never got the impression she is about to be raped. Tuon made it quite
clear to Mat what she thought of men forcing themselves upon women in
WH.
Da'covale aren't women, they're property. Meaning she can just turn off
the humanity in her perception of someone.
I WH she was speaking about men forcing themselves on damane who are
also property...

Michael
Danil
2005-10-19 11:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Michael Meier says...
Post by Michael Meier
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:42:23 +0200, Frank van Schie
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Michael Meier
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:26:41 GMT, Old Toby
Post by Old Toby
Err, unless I'm misinterpreting, she basically sentenced
Suroth to being gang raped by a small army, before being
1) There are some things you just don't do. Even to a
piece of shit like Suroth.
I never got the impression she is about to be raped. Tuon made it quite
clear to Mat what she thought of men forcing themselves upon women in
WH.
Da'covale aren't women, they're property. Meaning she can just turn off
the humanity in her perception of someone.
I WH she was speaking about men forcing themselves on damane who are
also property...
"...you must be careful. There are men who actually take /damane/ to
their beds. You would not want anyone to think you are perverted."
-- WH: Three Women.
Frank van Schie
2005-10-19 13:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Meier
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:42:23 +0200, Frank van Schie
[Raping da'covale?]
Post by Michael Meier
Post by Frank van Schie
Da'covale aren't women, they're property. Meaning she can just turn off
the humanity in her perception of someone.
I WH she was speaking about men forcing themselves on damane who are
also property...
Damane are considered animals, pets, given the way sul'dam speak to
them. Tuon equates her horse training with damane training. There's a
huge difference between sexual acts with objects and sexual acts with
animals. We even have entire classes of objects devoted to nothing but sex.
--
Frank
Michael Meier
2005-10-20 09:23:39 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:41:13 +0200, Frank van Schie
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Michael Meier
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:42:23 +0200, Frank van Schie
[Raping da'covale?]
Post by Michael Meier
Post by Frank van Schie
Da'covale aren't women, they're property. Meaning she can just turn off
the humanity in her perception of someone.
I WH she was speaking about men forcing themselves on damane who are
also property...
Damane are considered animals, pets, given the way sul'dam speak to
them. Tuon equates her horse training with damane training. There's a
huge difference between sexual acts with objects and sexual acts with
animals. We even have entire classes of objects devoted to nothing but sex.
I disagree. True, both damane and da'covale are considered property. And
Damane have even less social standing than a da'covale, but I think the
idea of forcing yourself on a damane is as vile to a Seanchan as forcing
yourself on a da'covale.
In WH Egeanin thinks that it's allright to bed your so'jhin as long as
you don't make that public knowledge, but there is nothing about any
Seanchan think about raping your so'jhin is allright.
And where did you get the idea of entire classes devoted to sex???
Though cupbearerrs and horsegrooms may were very 'special' garments
there is nothing in the books at all to suggest that they are dedicated
to please there master sexually in the books at all. Note that even
Tuon's maids are selected for there good looks besides there skill. That
doesn't make them her Toys at all.
To me it seems that good looking cupbearer are a status symbol nothing
more.
Michael
Frank van Schie
2005-10-20 17:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Meier
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:41:13 +0200, Frank van Schie
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Michael Meier
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:42:23 +0200, Frank van Schie
[Raping da'covale?]
Post by Michael Meier
Post by Frank van Schie
Da'covale aren't women, they're property. Meaning she can just turn off
the humanity in her perception of someone.
I WH she was speaking about men forcing themselves on damane who are
also property...
Damane are considered animals, pets, given the way sul'dam speak to
them. Tuon equates her horse training with damane training. There's a
huge difference between sexual acts with objects and sexual acts with
animals. We even have entire classes of objects devoted to nothing but sex.
I disagree. True, both damane and da'covale are considered property. And
Damane have even less social standing than a da'covale, but I think the
idea of forcing yourself on a damane is as vile to a Seanchan as forcing
yourself on a da'covale.
In WH Egeanin thinks that it's allright to bed your so'jhin as long as
you don't make that public knowledge, but there is nothing about any
Seanchan think about raping your so'jhin is allright.
So'jhin are a special case, as a so'jhin of the Empress is addressed as
an equal even by High Blood. So'jhin, almost like damane, are treated as
glorified pets (where damane are particularly stupid and dangerous pets).

Cupbearers are furniture, to have stand by and look pretty, while
performing some functionality. I see no reason to assume that a piece of
barracks furniture, regardless of whether it's a cupboard or a
Cupbearer, has any say in how it's used. I also don't think the
Deathwatch Guard much cares about how they are perceived.
Post by Michael Meier
And where did you get the idea of entire classes devoted to sex???
*We* (real world) have entire classes of *objects* devoted to sex.
Post by Michael Meier
Though cupbearerrs and horsegrooms may were very 'special' garments
there is nothing in the books at all to suggest that they are dedicated
to please there master sexually in the books at all. Note that even
Tuon's maids are selected for there good looks besides there skill. That
doesn't make them her Toys at all.
To me it seems that good looking cupbearer are a status symbol nothing
more.
Agreed.
--
Frank
BClubb
2005-10-22 06:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Frank van Schie <***@email.it> wrote in news:DM6dnaTrO-***@casema.nl:

*snipping entire impropriety of people and property arguement*

Actually, it doesn't matter how the Seanchen feel about the sexual
inteaction between citizens and property. The human deathwatch guards are
property themselves and I don't see the citizens lowering themselves to
even care how the deathwatch guards are treating the Property Formerly
Known As Suroth(Here after known as PFKAS)

Jamie Bowden
2005-10-20 15:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Meier
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:26:41 GMT, Old Toby
Post by Tamyrlin79
"It is well known that Zaired Elbar was Suroth's man completely. He
did nothing that she did not order. Therefore Suroth Sabelle
Meldarath is no more. This da'covale will will serve the Deathwatch
Guard as they wish until her hair has grown enough for her to be
decent when she is sent to the block for sale."
Err, unless I'm misinterpreting, she basically sentenced Suroth to
being gang raped by a small army, before being sold into slavery.
1) There are some things you just don't do. Even to a piece of shit
like Suroth.
I never got the impression she is about to be raped. Tuon made it quite
clear to Mat what she thought of men forcing themselves upon women in
WH.
She's not a woman anymore, she's property now.

Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <***@alaric.org.uk>
A***@ayende.com
2005-10-17 19:39:37 UTC
Permalink
I don't know about the rape thing, it seems that there are rules about
that, same as a man wouldn't touch a damane.

OTOH, it's logical if you consider the implications of the culture.
Being made property is _much_ worse than death.
And killing herself after death wouldn't be very useful, since she
already suffered the shame.
David Chapman
2005-10-17 20:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@ayende.com
I don't know about the rape thing, it seems that there are rules about
that, same as a man wouldn't touch a damane.
Some men do take damane to bed. It's considered bad form, though.
Post by A***@ayende.com
OTOH, it's logical if you consider the implications of the culture.
Being made property is _much_ worse than death.
Because of the shame involved, not because of Rapefest '01.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Chris Liguori
2005-10-13 01:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Random spoilers in no particular order
<snip>
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
5) For that matter, we finally see some of the pocket refuge
communities of Malkieri! In related thoughts, Nynaeve rules. Trust me.
I was actually a bit underwhelmed by this moment. It was not a "kneel
to
the Dragon Reborn or Elayne smacking dow the five sisters in Ebou Dar
or Egwene seizing control of the Hall moment for me.
Actually, I thought this was the most moving moment in the book.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. I was never a big
Nynaeve fan, but I agree with Richard - she rules in her moment in this
book.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
I was more startled by still how much remains. Well post-COT startled.
I agree somewhat, I think RJ pulled his punches here a little. He made
some decisive moves to bring things to a head, but he really could have
gone farther. It was almost as if he wanted to make sure he had stuff
left over for the last book.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
the established story. Well done, RJ. Unfortunately, Vandene dies, and
she was always one of the more plausible and decent Aes Sedai figures.
Redemption is rather sweet.
Why the Kin hunting the BA weren't included in the raiding party I
don't understand (unless they were killed, I can never keep the names
straight).
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.
I was much rather hoping for a bit more insight from the BA in this
section. The Guardwomen and the details on the male mercenaries was
bore-Ing. At least they all did not try on dresses and then take baths
together.
It is done. Thank God.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
9) Nice character development on some of the Red Ajah. Nuances added
that make them less of a Feminazi Man-Hating Club. One still pays for
the educations of her nephews and cousins, another dates men, quietly,
a third still dotes on her father, etc. Oh, and Pevara has a last name,
but it is something long and convoluted like Maratavavni.
So does Beonin (a particular aspect of the plot I find hysterially
funny and way too implausible -- Beonin waits until now to tell Elaida
all the goodies? Riiiight). It will be interesting to see how the
fanboy Rand-Rulz club parses this type of info.
I think others pointed out that Beonin felt she was bound by her oath
to Egwene until she was captured. The only Elaida scene I am left
interested in seeing is when someone explains to her that Rand is
Tigraine's son.

It's Pevara Tazanovni (page 759).
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
10) Romanda gets a POV, and we finally get a slant on her that makes
her seem more human and less of a caricature. Plus, she's sharp and
instantly makes a connection between the deaths of Kairen, Anaiya and
Cabriana Mercandes that rings true and *actually* acts on it!
I was disappointed with this one as well. Mat goes a courtin' and we
get Romanda-whirled. A little more depth and info would have been
nice. But at least there was something.
I liked it. Romanda is an old stick-in-the-mud, but she at least showed
that there are some operational brain cells in there.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
11) Oh, and Sharina Melloy is an organizational genius.
The first character with common sense AND no stupid prideful agenda
(like the Wise Ones, the windfinders, Cadsuane, and every other
practical woman Jordan invented and then continued to lower with
incredible levels of stupidity).
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
At this point, I could almost not care less about the Last Battle and
just want to see some serious development on this front. The whole
stew of Egwene, the BA hunters, the ferrets, Alviarin, possibly Mesaana
and of course the BA. Not to mention Elaida's got a brand new bag of
tricks now too!
I really want this to come to a boil quicker than is likely to happen.
There are too many White Tower threads that need to be wrapped up.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Not to mention the anticipation we now have of several chapters of
Semirhage staring stonily at Cadsuane. Yippee!
That whole piece was written oddly. There was no real dramatic tension
in the chapter. Unless that was the point. That men and women of this
time can crush a Forsaken if they work together. And Rand loses his
hand because he can't work together with LTT.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
[snip on the grounds I refuse to discuss the most painfully drawn out
silly piece of contrived crap in the entire series]
Agreed
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
16) Setalle Anan admits her status as a former Aes Sedai. No name,
though, but she is so totally Martine Jenata.
Yep.
Yep Yep
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
17) Yay, the Seanchan Empress has a name, Radhannan, but don't bother
getting used to it.
Another bit of disappointment. Was looking forward to some real
Seanchan shennagins with the ultimate Mommy Dearest mounted on her
crystal goose box and the Most. Dysfunctional. Randland. Family. Ever.
I'm glad about this, because a trip to Seanchan would cost another
book.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.
I was rather appalled that Jordan wants us to gasp at the silly
contrived vapid insanity of the Amayar and yet blithely has Perrin turn
into one of the most brainless idiots all over "all for Faile". At
this rate, Perrin is going to have Faile's head in a jar beside his
bed.
I could not care less for the Amayar one way or the other, and Perrin
is obviously has one-track mind to an obsessive degree, so, whatever
...
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
19) The Steward of the Dragon in Arad Doman will so obviously be Rodel
Ituralde.
Yea, a thinking man running his own campaign. Go RI.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in both
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the five
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we see
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while Romanda
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus Romanda
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the Hall and
also First Weaver.
Yet another weak straw imo. Romanda's position of weakness is just not
that plausible to me, but he has been making up this whole Sitter
pattern thing on the fly so it was not as bad as I thought it might be.
Romanda allowed Magla more say in the third seat because she wanted
both a seat and the position of First Weaver. Magla needed a too young
sitter that could be moved out of the way in a reunited hall, and could
not care about being First as the Tower first would lead after
reuniting. So both got what they wanted even though Romanda thought
she was driving a tough bargain.

The interesting thing with the old hall's "split" is what happens when
this plan is discovered by Romanada, Siuan or Egwene. Note that Egwene
mentions that the hall was tossed out by the sisters for their
mismanagement of Shein Chunla (page 513). So a reunited hall may see
all of the original sitters out on their ears.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
This I actually liked.
I kind of liked it. It depends on where this goes. Taim is in for a
surprise if he thinks he can put darkfriends in with Pevara. And she
is in for a surprise if she tries to compel her bonded Asha'men. I'm
not sure where RJ is headed, and I'm wary of anything that smells like
a new side trail at this point.

Regards,

Chris
j***@cub.kcnet.org
2005-10-14 14:26:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Random spoilers in no particular order
<snip>
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
5) For that matter, we finally see some of the pocket refuge
communities of Malkieri! In related thoughts, Nynaeve rules. Trust me.
I was actually a bit underwhelmed by this moment. It was not a "kneel
to
the Dragon Reborn or Elayne smacking dow the five sisters in Ebou Dar
or Egwene seizing control of the Hall moment for me.
Actually, I thought this was the most moving moment in the book.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. I was never a big
Nynaeve fan, but I agree with Richard - she rules in her moment in this
book.
I guess I just found her decision never really brimming with drama
or pain or even emotion. It was like deciding she needed to get milk
as well as bread at the store that day. And I think for dramatic
effect,
it would have been much more interesting if we saw Nynaeve drop Lan off
and then a couple of chapters later we see the pov that shows us what
she
did. When I say underwhelmed, I don't mean the actual event so much as
just
how Jordan delivered it.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
I was more startled by still how much remains. Well post-COT startled.
I agree somewhat, I think RJ pulled his punches here a little. He made
some decisive moves to bring things to a head, but he really could have
gone farther. It was almost as if he wanted to make sure he had stuff
left over for the last book.
I think the flaws of the last book were _too much_ in focus here. Once
again to the detriment of the work itself. I think the severe lack of
any real narrative description of much of the action; particularly the
channeling action, underscored for me that Jordan is just filling in
the blanks at this point.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
the established story. Well done, RJ. Unfortunately, Vandene dies, and
she was always one of the more plausible and decent Aes Sedai figures.
Redemption is rather sweet.
Why the Kin hunting the BA weren't included in the raiding party I
don't understand (unless they were killed, I can never keep the names
straight).
Typical contrivance. I think the actual Elayne-captured-Elayne rescued
element failed because once again a character never once utilized any
knowledge she might have had. Elayne might think she is invulnerable
until the babies are born; but when did Elayne stop caring for Vandene?
Elayne knew that there was a good chance that either Sareitha or
Careane
were BA. Possibly both. Regardless of the link Elayne risked Vandene.
And the Warders involved. And while she might not have been expecting
the rest of Liandrin's group but surely she should have considered that
maybe some of those at the Silver Swan could be BA. The fact she also
had already concluded that none of the Kin were BA and she had Kirstian
and
Zarya -- strong for Aes Sedai to draw from just shows how insipid
Jordan's
plotting has become from his earlier works.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.
I was much rather hoping for a bit more insight from the BA in this
section. The Guardwomen and the details on the male mercenaries was
bore-Ing. At least they all did not try on dresses and then take baths
together.
It is done. Thank God.
Well I hope. I think Elayne's over confidence concerning how safe
she is about the babies might be Jordan trying to provide an even
greater *gasp* moment. Since Jordan spared her rape, he might have
something else to drive her face in the mud.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
9) Nice character development on some of the Red Ajah. Nuances added
that make them less of a Feminazi Man-Hating Club. One still pays for
the educations of her nephews and cousins, another dates men, quietly,
a third still dotes on her father, etc. Oh, and Pevara has a last name,
but it is something long and convoluted like Maratavavni.
So does Beonin (a particular aspect of the plot I find hysterially
funny and way too implausible -- Beonin waits until now to tell Elaida
all the goodies? Riiiight). It will be interesting to see how the
fanboy Rand-Rulz club parses this type of info.
I think others pointed out that Beonin felt she was bound by her oath
to Egwene until she was captured. The only Elaida scene I am left
interested in seeing is when someone explains to her that Rand is
Tigraine's son.
Yes, but Beonin was still actively opposing Egwene during her supposed
loyal stage. So why didn't Beonin do something to counter-act Egwene's
advantages? Beonin's oath did not prevent her from betraying Egwene.
So Beonin between Egwene teaching Traveling and Elayne introducing the
earlier bits happened before Egwene netted Sheriam and the others with
that oath. I think Elaida's ignorance and Beonin's logical are both
huge flawed contrivances.
Post by Chris Liguori
It's Pevara Tazanovni (page 759).
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
10) Romanda gets a POV, and we finally get a slant on her that makes
her seem more human and less of a caricature. Plus, she's sharp and
instantly makes a connection between the deaths of Kairen, Anaiya and
Cabriana Mercandes that rings true and *actually* acts on it!
I was disappointed with this one as well. Mat goes a courtin' and we
get Romanda-whirled. A little more depth and info would have been
nice. But at least there was something.
I liked it. Romanda is an old stick-in-the-mud, but she at least showed
that there are some operational brain cells in there.
Oh I like Romanda. But once again Jordan plays coy and simpers away
a great place for some real political introspection and analysis by
an up-until-now rather oblique player. Someone that could have
reflected
even a bit more on her own history. My gripe stems from personal
preferences.
In the last three books prior, the only thing that redeemed the books
for me was
the layering of Tower/Aes Sedai politics. I tend to think this is
where Jordan
shines. Usually.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
11) Oh, and Sharina Melloy is an organizational genius.
The first character with common sense AND no stupid prideful agenda
(like the Wise Ones, the windfinders, Cadsuane, and every other
practical woman Jordan invented and then continued to lower with
incredible levels of stupidity).
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
At this point, I could almost not care less about the Last Battle and
just want to see some serious development on this front. The whole
stew of Egwene, the BA hunters, the ferrets, Alviarin, possibly Mesaana
and of course the BA. Not to mention Elaida's got a brand new bag of
tricks now too!
I really want this to come to a boil quicker than is likely to happen.
There are too many White Tower threads that need to be wrapped up.
I want it to be developed completely in its resolution as well. Not
glossed over like Egwene and the rebel sections were. I don't think
I will get my wish.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Not to mention the anticipation we now have of several chapters of
Semirhage staring stonily at Cadsuane. Yippee!
That whole piece was written oddly. There was no real dramatic tension
in the chapter. Unless that was the point. That men and women of this
time can crush a Forsaken if they work together. And Rand loses his
hand because he can't work together with LTT.
I think it would have been more interesting to have seen this whole
battle through the eyes of Cadsuane or Nynaeve. Someone who actually
took part and didn't miss the whole thing. Haven't it presented from
Rand's pov the whole time, truly allowed Jordna to write a cheap and
rather bland event that should have been the highlight of the book.
This is the one battle that should have matched Rahvin in T.A.R. or
Dumai's Wells. At least in terms of drama and action.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
[snip on the grounds I refuse to discuss the most painfully drawn out
silly piece of contrived crap in the entire series]
Agreed
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
16) Setalle Anan admits her status as a former Aes Sedai. No name,
though, but she is so totally Martine Jenata.
Yep.
Yep Yep
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
17) Yay, the Seanchan Empress has a name, Radhannan, but don't bother
getting used to it.
Another bit of disappointment. Was looking forward to some real
Seanchan shennagins with the ultimate Mommy Dearest mounted on her
crystal goose box and the Most. Dysfunctional. Randland. Family. Ever.
I'm glad about this, because a trip to Seanchan would cost another
book.
I didn't want a trip to Seanchan. Well not this late in the game.
What I was hoping for was a Forsaken controlled Empress or vicious
imperial sibling or three getting into the mix when the true Return
kicked in and Tuon found she might not have a choice what piece of
lace she wore on her head if she wished to keep it. Jordan's intrigue
is one of the things that makes him unique and so readable. Focusing
on giggling sexual politics worthy of study halls and who sits next to
who at the school cafeteria in Tuon's plotline was a huge
disappointment.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.
I was rather appalled that Jordan wants us to gasp at the silly
contrived vapid insanity of the Amayar and yet blithely has Perrin turn
into one of the most brainless idiots all over "all for Faile". At
this rate, Perrin is going to have Faile's head in a jar beside his
bed.
I could not care less for the Amayar one way or the other, and Perrin
is obviously has one-track mind to an obsessive degree, so, whatever
...
I think my problem with Perrin is that we see how incredibly appalling
Randlander's look at slavery. The very concept is antithetical to
A Queen. What should it have been like to someone who grew up with
Rand
in the egalitarian Two Rivers? Rand for all his supposed hardness and
coldness still sees "common folk" as needing an upper hand. Perrin
not only consigns thousands blithely to slavery but reduces the Wise
Ones to a state that should have had the other Wise Ones balking if
he suddenly had no conscience. I think Jordan wanted the reader to
be a little disgusted but also admire the gritty new Perrin who will
pay any cost. I just found it a bit much. Especially after Jordan
wrote
the whole plotline of Faile and Perrin like some afternoon soap opera
that never ends.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
19) The Steward of the Dragon in Arad Doman will so obviously be Rodel
Ituralde.
Yea, a thinking man running his own campaign. Go RI.
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
20) Yes, the Tower heads orchestrated the place-holder Sitters in both
Towers, acting through the Obstructionist Five in Salidar (the five
pre-Schism Sitters who split) Saroiya, Varilin, Magla, Takima and
Faiselle. Not explicitly confirmed, but through Romanda's POV, we see
that Magla was pushing for the "inappropriate" Salita, while Romanda
was lobbying for Dagdara Finchey. Ultimately, Magla's status as a
sitting Sitter trumped Romanda's status as an exiled one, plus Romanda
was angling for two offices for herself, namely, a Seat in the Hall and
also First Weaver.
Yet another weak straw imo. Romanda's position of weakness is just not
that plausible to me, but he has been making up this whole Sitter
pattern thing on the fly so it was not as bad as I thought it might be.
Romanda allowed Magla more say in the third seat because she wanted
both a seat and the position of First Weaver. Magla needed a too young
sitter that could be moved out of the way in a reunited hall, and could
not care about being First as the Tower first would lead after
reuniting. So both got what they wanted even though Romanda thought
she was driving a tough bargain.
I think my problem here is in hindsight, even if Jordan _tells_
this happened, I don't buy Romanda coming into town and letting
Magla pull even one string. Particularly a string that is so frayed.
In the parameters that Jordan used to define Romanda's character prior
to this, I simply see no plausibility that she would allow Magla room
to wiggle on a an issue of a sister wearing the shawl less than forty
years taking a seat in the Hall. It would have been better if Jordan
has explained that Romanda arrived and Salita was already firmly
entrenched
despite resistance from various traditionalist but was able to take
control and keep Magla from putting in an even more unsuitable
candidate.
Post by Chris Liguori
The interesting thing with the old hall's "split" is what happens when
this plan is discovered by Romanada, Siuan or Egwene. Note that Egwene
mentions that the hall was tossed out by the sisters for their
mismanagement of Shein Chunla (page 513). So a reunited hall may see
all of the original sitters out on their ears.
This would be interesting. I thought that Egwene was basically setting
up a firmer case as to why Elaida, despite overthrowing Siuan legally,
might be seen as an Amyrlin who has not held her authority in the true
spirit of the Tower. Basically a "Flawed Halls" can be dealt with as
well as Flawed Amyrlins. And that power in the past has rested in the
hands of the sisters. Not just the Sitters. So if the Sitters under
Elaida dither, there is precedent for the rank and file to take matters
in their own hands a bit more directly.

But I like the idea that Egwene might be also trying to reassure those
same rank and file sisters that overthrowing Elaida at this point does
not mean having to eat humble pie served by the rebels either.
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
This I actually liked.
I kind of liked it. It depends on where this goes. Taim is in for a
surprise if he thinks he can put darkfriends in with Pevara. And she
is in for a surprise if she tries to compel her bonded Asha'men. I'm
not sure where RJ is headed, and I'm wary of anything that smells like
a new side trail at this point.
Oh, I won't argue that this should have been how COT ended, not KOD.
In fact finishing KOD, it occurs to me how poorly edited the last books
have been. ACOS should have had Elayne and Nynaeve using the bowl of
winds
and ending with the cliffhanger of fleeing the Seanchan. TPOD should
have
carried through with Rand annoucing in Far Madding that he was going to
cleanse
the taint from Saidin. The rest of WH should have been combined with
COT and
trimmed of the excess bloat of Elayne taking baths in Caemlyn and
Perrin trudging morosely through the snow tying knots. And Mat fuming
over Tuon sending him smirk after smirk.

It will be, at least, interesting to see how Jordan ends this. Not the
last scene so much but the whole structure and development of plot in
the book
itself. To see if he squanders the first seven books entirely or if he
can somehow redeem himself. Even somewhat. Sadly, WH and COT were
such wretchedly disappointing and meandering messes that even if KOD
had been considerably better, I'm not sure he could have done so with
just one book.
Now one book is all he has. Well that and the two prequels and the
possible
trilogy that he is suddenly talking about.

---
JSH
steveo
2005-10-17 07:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by Chris Liguori
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
So does Beonin (a particular aspect of the plot I find hysterially
funny and way too implausible -- Beonin waits until now to tell Elaida
all the goodies? Riiiight). It will be interesting to see how the
fanboy Rand-Rulz club parses this type of info.
I think others pointed out that Beonin felt she was bound by her oath
to Egwene until she was captured. The only Elaida scene I am left
interested in seeing is when someone explains to her that Rand is
Tigraine's son.
Yes, but Beonin was still actively opposing Egwene during her supposed
loyal stage. So why didn't Beonin do something to counter-act Egwene's
advantages? Beonin's oath did not prevent her from betraying Egwene.
So Beonin between Egwene teaching Traveling and Elayne introducing the
earlier bits happened before Egwene netted Sheriam and the others with
that oath. I think Elaida's ignorance and Beonin's logical are both
huge flawed contrivances.
I think it would have been more interesting to have seen this whole
battle through the eyes of Cadsuane or Nynaeve. Someone who actually
took part and didn't miss the whole thing. Haven't it presented from
Rand's pov the whole time, truly allowed Jordna to write a cheap and
rather bland event that should have been the highlight of the book.
This is the one battle that should have matched Rahvin in T.A.R. or
Dumai's Wells. At least in terms of drama and action.
I think we as readers are supposed to feel that the drama of the action is
somewhat missing to enhance the direction the narrative is taking. The
whole Cadsuane arc is about keeping Rand's humanity, and yet here Rand is
missing his right hand and it's like: "Oh, damn. Now I have to relearn how
to use a sword. Sigh."

In addition, a fight against Semirhage is not really that big a deal. Rand
knows for sure that TG is really right around the corner. Capturing a
general for the enemy is all well and good, but is it really that big a deal
when the enemy has 5 more? [Moghedian, Asmo, Messana, Demandred,
eandal, --Lanfear, Ishy, Aginor, Balthamael, Sammael, Bel'al, and Rhavin
are "dead.")

steveo
Bob Kluttz
2005-10-12 15:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Just a couple of other points that I haven't seen elsewhere,
though I may well have missed them in the deluge.

Book of Translation. What the heck? Where did _that_ come
from?

Cool moment. Elder Haman sending Loial to speak to the stump,
then taking over his role of visiting the Waygates for Rand.

And speaking of the Ways, that funny root-like ter'angreal
sure sounds like a Talisman of Growing.

Best POV decision - showing the climax of Mat's chapters
from Furyk Karede's perspective. Hilarious!

Cool set up for Book 12 - the fact that Rand is now closely
"in touch" with Moridin. The dreams of Rand wearing masks
until one sticks was interesting with LTT as the only
candidate. Now it has dire possibilities.

Bob Kluttz
David Chapman
2005-10-12 23:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Random spoilers in no particular order
2) This book was Sappho-rific! Lesbians Ahoy! Really. Firstly. RJ has
all but laid it out on the table that virtually every novice/Accepted
has some hot girl on girl action in the Tower
You didn't previously detect the link between homosexuality and channelling?
That's why there are no gay men in Randland - they've all been culled.
Post by r***@gmail.com
However, having said all that, the revelation about Galina particularly
makes me think that RJ is definitely influenced by his readers, no
matter what he claims.
I was thinking throughout and in relation to things RJ has said that he's
definitely been *listening* to his readers these last two years. Everything
in KoD seems to address a major concern that has been voiced on this
newsgroup and elsewhere, including the return of a full editorial cycle and
the slow progress of plot. He had to push the plot hard in KoD to do it,
but he's finally got his mojo back and is on track.
Post by r***@gmail.com
4) Similarly, RJ saw fit to clear up a few, umm, oversights in his
world set-up. We learn that the Tinkers *do* have a cultural method of
dealing with girls who can channel
And I've completely forgotten what it is already. Remind me, please? I
don't want to have to dig through a 750-page book for it.
Post by r***@gmail.com
5) For that matter, we finally see some of the pocket refuge
communities of Malkieri! In related thoughts, Nynaeve rules. Trust me.
Lan's been shitting on about his private war with the Shadow for so long,
it's about time someone thought "You're fighting a war? Then how about
taking an *army*, you dumb shit?" But yes, it was one of the better scenes.
Post by r***@gmail.com
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
I still think he should have finished with Moiraine's rescue from the Tower
of Ghenjei. No matter where he puts that in the last book, it'll feel out
of place.

On the subject of the last book, so long as RJ finishes all the writing in
one stint I wouldn't complain too much if it winds up being published in two
volumes a few months apart.
Post by r***@gmail.com
7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
the established story. Well done, RJ. Unfortunately, Vandene dies, and
she was always one of the more plausible and decent Aes Sedai figures.
Yeah, I'm going to miss Vandene.
Post by r***@gmail.com
9) Nice character development on some of the Red Ajah. Nuances added
that make them less of a Feminazi Man-Hating Club. One still pays for
the educations of her nephews and cousins, another dates men, quietly,
a third still dotes on her father, etc. Oh, and Pevara has a last name,
but it is something long and convoluted like Maratavavni.
Tazanovni.
Post by r***@gmail.com
10) Romanda gets a POV, and we finally get a slant on her that makes
her seem more human and less of a caricature. Plus, she's sharp and
instantly makes a connection between the deaths of Kairen, Anaiya and
Cabriana Mercandes that rings true and *actually* acts on it!
I also enjoyed the POVs of Loial and Tuon. Nice to see how the other half
live sometimes. It was *also* nifty that Erith grew a spine. It's pretty
clear that she'd been wholly deferent before because she was still a child,
but as soon as she got married and thus had the full privileges of an adult
she metaphorically yelled "FINALLY!" and started asserting herself to the
hilt. The Ogier equivalent of "Fuck you, bitch, Loial does what *I* say
now!" is still ringing off my cerebral cortex.
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
If you like Planescape, I guess. I still can't think of Semirhage without
wondering what a rhage is and who'd want half of one, though.
Post by r***@gmail.com
14) House Saighain of Cairhien is really treacherous. Colavaere's
cousin Dairaine is a prisoner among the Shaido like Faile, and she's
feckless and treacherous as Colavaere.
It's the name, I think. Margaret Weis's Star of the Guardians series has a
character called Derek Sagan who is also a serious double-dealer. And of
course, there's that guy who convnced people he was a science guru on the
back of some shitty novels.
Post by r***@gmail.com
15) Faile has finally reverted to the smart, capable and decent young
heroine she seemed during the Two Rivers campaign. She really has
acquired quite an entourage of her own. She also speaks the Old Tongue.
In a related note, Perrin defeats the Shaido with a stroke of genius.
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well.
There's nothing they can do about it at this time; more important
considerations are at hand. Rand especially does not deserve critique,
because he knows for an absolute fact that he *has* to make truce with the
Seanchan or he'll lose Tar'mon Gai'don. Telling them that he hates their
social system and had better watch out because he'll be coming for them just
as soon as he levels Shayol Ghul is not the best way to go about
peacemaking.
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
It also confirms outright that Taim is at the very least a Darkfriend in
touch with the Forsaken as opposed to merely being out for himself.

A few thoughts of my own, more to follow:

"A Village In Shiota" is the standout scene in the book for me, closely
followed by the One Power Shootout at the OK Corral. That was the point
where I began to think KoD might turn out to be a really good book. It's
pretty well written, IMO.

From the Prophecies of the Dragon in COT: "When the right hand falters and
the left hand strays" ... well, left hands don't get much more strayed, do
they? Oh, and we also know what Rand's "bloody hand" from Min's viewing is.

On the topic of Min's viewings, it's interesting that Logain's house colours
are gold on blue. I think he may well wind up restoring his house to glory.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Ash
2005-10-13 00:17:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Random spoilers in no particular order
2) This book was Sappho-rific! Lesbians Ahoy! Really. Firstly. RJ has
all but laid it out on the table that virtually every novice/Accepted
has some hot girl on girl action in the Tower
You didn't previously detect the link between homosexuality and channelling?
That's why there are no gay men in Randland - they've all been culled.
Post by r***@gmail.com
However, having said all that, the revelation about Galina particularly
makes me think that RJ is definitely influenced by his readers, no
matter what he claims.
I was thinking throughout and in relation to things RJ has said that he's
definitely been *listening* to his readers these last two years. Everything
in KoD seems to address a major concern that has been voiced on this
newsgroup and elsewhere, including the return of a full editorial cycle and
the slow progress of plot. He had to push the plot hard in KoD to do it,
but he's finally got his mojo back and is on track.
Post by r***@gmail.com
4) Similarly, RJ saw fit to clear up a few, umm, oversights in his
world set-up. We learn that the Tinkers *do* have a cultural method of
dealing with girls who can channel
And I've completely forgotten what it is already. Remind me, please? I
don't want to have to dig through a 750-page book for it.
They take them to the Tower. Interestingly, we learn Aisling Noon (A
tua'athon and perhaps the same Aisling that was an advisor to one of the
borderland kings) is now bonded to an Asha'man
Johan Gustafsson
2005-10-14 20:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Random spoilers in no particular order
3) As a sop to John Hamby specifically, Bennae Sedai *finally* makes an
appearance! Plus, with her own last name, no less (that I forget) No
Serafelle, though. Lirene and Tsumata also show up. Tsutama is the new
Red Highest.
Yet no more info on the Vileness. Alas.
Post by r***@gmail.com
5) For that matter, we finally see some of the pocket refuge
communities of Malkieri! In related thoughts, Nynaeve rules. Trust me.
On the whole, the Wondergirls (and Faile!) show themselves from their
best sides in this one. This I like.
Post by r***@gmail.com
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
And people drop off like flies. Still, the best survival method in
Randland seems to be getting hitched.
Post by r***@gmail.com
7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
the established story. Well done, RJ. Unfortunately, Vandene dies, and
she was always one of the more plausible and decent Aes Sedai figures.
Hey, a good death for a good character. I'm not complaining.
Post by r***@gmail.com
8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.
I'm certainly relieved Elayne had Mellar pegged all along. I never
guessed the footpad was sent by her, though. On another note, I was
kinda sad to see her part with Aviendha. I actually liked the two of
them together, in a sapphi^h^h^h sappy way.
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
So will there be contact with the Hunters? Doesine has already talked to
her. With the BA Hunt, Egwene's plotting, Elaida's paranoia and the
impending Seanchan attack, the Tower is going to be an interesting place
the next book.
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
For all the elaborate scenes with a'dam and such that I envisioned, this
was surprisingly simple. I liked the scene, though. Anti-climactic,
sure, but unexpected. And kicking off the mythology portion of this
thread, Rand lost his hand capturing Semirhage, who ends up bound by the
AS. Tyr loses his hand to the Fenris Wolf as it is chained by the gods.
So if Semirhage is the Fenris Wolf, will she break free and swallow the
sun as a herald of the final battle?

...probably not.
Post by r***@gmail.com
14) House Saighain of Cairhien is really treacherous. Colavaere's
cousin Dairaine is a prisoner among the Shaido like Faile, and she's
feckless and treacherous as Colavaere.
On the other hand, Bertome(?) seems a decent sort of fellow (unless my
memory completely deceives me).
Post by r***@gmail.com
15) Faile has finally reverted to the smart, capable and decent young
heroine she seemed during the Two Rivers campaign. She really has
acquired quite an entourage of her own. She also speaks the Old Tongue.
In a related note, Perrin defeats the Shaido with a stroke of genius.
...aaaaaaand they're gone! Gone gone gone! Away to the Waste, buggered
off, scarpered, whee! Ding dong, the Shaido are gone!

I was a bit surprised at how much I dug Galina's final scene. Normally
the torturing antics of the Aiel leave me with a bad taste in my mouth,
but Galina well and truly deserved it. After all her work, her schemes
and plans to get away from Therava, she finally succeeds... and is
immediately caught, completely breaks and exits stage right. At least I
hope she does (I had similar hopes for Liandrin after tFoH, but no such
luck).
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.
Perrin certainly crossed the line more than the others. I do hope RJ
does something with the whole "deal with the Dark One" thing that
occasionally passed as a conscience in the inner monologues. I doubt it,
though.
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
Fairly ominous. Black and red, heh.
Post by r***@gmail.com
I liked it, a lot. Stuff really happens. Characters develop (finally)
and acquire new dimensions. It's got a little bit of everything for
everyone. Tower foo. Derring-do. Battles, mysteries resolved, beloved
characters living up to their promise, etc.
Hooray.
After a rocky start (the prologue notwithstanding), he got his groove
back with the final chapters. It's not tSR or even LoC, but I was
pleased.
--
Johan Gustafsson *** ***@e-bostad.net

Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President?
Ash
2005-10-14 20:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johan Gustafsson
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
So will there be contact with the Hunters? Doesine has already talked to
her. With the BA Hunt, Egwene's plotting, Elaida's paranoia and the
impending Seanchan attack, the Tower is going to be an interesting place
the next book.
I'm not sure how this is going to go. Elaida has decided to have Egwene
as her serving girl. Obvioulsy, Egwene will not bow to her, or call her
anything but Elaida. I can't see her taking this well.
David Chapman
2005-10-14 23:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johan Gustafsson
Yet no more info on the Vileness. Alas.
I think we can piece together all we need to know about thay already. Men
are brought to the Tower to be gentled for a reason - so they can be severed
as painlessly as possible then cared for as best as can be. The Reds
involved in the Vileness pretty much tore men away from the Source then
simply left them to die.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Johan Gustafsson
2005-10-15 06:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by Johan Gustafsson
Yet no more info on the Vileness. Alas.
I think we can piece together all we need to know about thay already. Men
are brought to the Tower to be gentled for a reason - so they can be severed
as painlessly as possible then cared for as best as can be. The Reds
involved in the Vileness pretty much tore men away from the Source then
simply left them to die.
You're probably right, I think. What I want to know is mostly trivia by
now. Oh well.
--
Johan Gustafsson *** ***@e-bostad.net

Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President?
John S Novak, III
2005-10-16 03:30:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Random spoilers in no particular order
1) I predicted (as did many of you) that Galad would challenge Eamon
Valda to a duel of honor over Morgase, and well, yeah. That happened.
And was then NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN. Okay, not strictly true-- it was
mentioned once as a reported event toward the end of the book, but it
played no role in the rest of the book.

This has begun to seriously piss me off about Jordan's notion of
"prologue". Usually, prologues deal with stuff that actually happens in
the pages that follow. Not so, Jordan, it's apparently just a bin for
random shit that felt like putting in.

Also, the notion of a proogue that's more than 12% of the text's length
continues to be a dumbass notion.
Post by r***@gmail.com
2) This book was Sappho-rific!
However, having said all that, the revelation about Galina particularly
makes me think that RJ is definitely influenced by his readers, no
matter what he claims. Galina's vaguely lascivious comments regarding
Erian, way back when, sparked discussion of her orientation, and now he
sees fit to set the record, uh, straight.
Yes, and he seems to have gone the other way-- from being intentionally
obfuscatory to finally making concessions to the implications of what he
writes. It's a slight improvement.
Post by r***@gmail.com
4) Similarly, RJ saw fit to clear up a few, umm, oversights in his
world set-up. We learn that the Tinkers *do* have a cultural method of
dealing with girls who can channel, and yes, there is even a Malkieri
Aes Sedai! A somewhat less than stellar Green named Nacelle.
Apparently, there were many, but they all got themselves killed on
vigilante quests.
See above.
Post by r***@gmail.com
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
You know what actually happened, when you stop to think?
A bunch of *really fucking annoying* plot threads got resolved, not much
more. Which, granted, is an improvement over *no* plot threads getting
resolved.

Elayne's troubles in Andor? Bored me to tears. Glad that's nominally
done.

Mat walking through Altara? Bored me to tears. Glad that's over and
he's back with the Band where he fucking should be. For a while, I was
thinking he'd end up with Perrin helping with the Faile situation.

Perrin moping over Faile? Bored me to tears. Faile screwing around
with Galina and Sevanna? Bored me to tears. Aiel in the Heartlands?
Bored me to tears.

(And when I say "bored me to tears" I don't mean in this book, I mean
since they bloody began. Each of these could have been reduced to two
or three chapters TOTAL and the series would have been stronger.)

You know what didn't happen? Resolution of interesting things.

Mat and the Snakes and Foxes? Acknowledge, barely opened, not resolved.

Egwene and the Tower Revolt? Developed, not resolved.

Rand and Tuon making their accord? Mentioned, moved, not resolved.

Borderland armies? Not resolved. (Although I hesitate to call that one
"interesting" to be truthful.)

Fain? Isam/Slayer? The Horn? Nothing.

This was very much in the way of Jordan finally getting off his ass and
hacking back the plot vines so the characters could do what it is
they're bloody supposed to do for a change. All of which waits for next
book. (Is the next one supposed to be the last one, now?)
Post by r***@gmail.com
8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.
I may have missed it, but I don't think she took any damn baths, either.
Post by r***@gmail.com
10) Romanda gets a POV, and we finally get a slant on her that makes
her seem more human and less of a caricature. Plus, she's sharp and
instantly makes a connection between the deaths of Kairen, Anaiya and
Cabriana Mercandes that rings true and *actually* acts on it!
I still thought she was a twit, but I did get some respect for her
deductive abilities.
Post by r***@gmail.com
11) Oh, and Sharina Melloy is an organizational genius.
She's a grandmother.
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
Okay, now *this*, I really liked. Once you can get past the inherent
stupidity of Elaida's decision (not hard to swallow, since Elaida has
the IQ of boiled turnip) it bordered on masterful.

It was marred, of course, by the stubborn refusal to include the *other*
chapter of this arc (and really, it requires no more than one or two,
told properly) wherein Egwene faces Elaida down in public and reminds
the Tar Valon Hall and Heads just exactly what an Amyrlin is-- and just
how short Elaida falls of that lofty mark.

Because mark me words, within five minutes of Egwene's refusal to curtsy
in front of her, Elaida would be shrieking, foaming, and would probably
have half the Hall restraining her from "punishing" Egwene to death. Or
worse, she'd get so mad during the punishment that the Oath would kick
in-- publically.
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Were they smart enough to Still her? Or is she going to escape in the
first three pages of the next prologue?
Post by r***@gmail.com
15) Faile has finally reverted to the smart, capable and decent young
heroine she seemed during the Two Rivers campaign. She really has
acquired quite an entourage of her own. She also speaks the Old Tongue.
In a related note, Perrin defeats the Shaido with a stroke of genius.
I didn't see genius.

I also effectively saw Perrin say, "I don't care what happens to the
world-- the Seanchan can have it, and probably the Dark One, too, as
long as I get Faile." Note that Perrin doesn't have Rand's insight into
the situation, either, and has no notion that the Seanchan are
"supposed" to get half the continent. No, he just gave it all up for
Faile.
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
I also suspect that Taim is masquerading as Sammael.

It's plausible that "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" is a phrase he got from
Sammael, and he never got the "Don't kill Rand" memo through Ishamael,
thus explaining the big attack.

(It's possible that Moridin is just plain lying, too.)

Oh, any bets that Morgase burned herself out?
Post by r***@gmail.com
I liked it, a lot.
It didn't suck.
Post by r***@gmail.com
Stuff really happens.
Detritus was swept away.
Post by r***@gmail.com
Characters develop (finally)
and acquire new dimensions.
Some.

Granted, it's nearly impossible for Jordan to get my good will back, at
this point.
--
John S. Novak, III
The Humblest Man On The Net
Michael Bruce
2005-10-16 04:26:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Random spoilers in no particular order
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
You know what actually happened, when you stop to think?
A bunch of *really fucking annoying* plot threads got resolved, not much
more. Which, granted, is an improvement over *no* plot threads getting
resolved.
I'll give it a cheer, anyway.
Post by John S Novak, III
Elayne's troubles in Andor? Bored me to tears. Glad that's nominally
done.
I have entirely skipped most of this in the last however many books. I
read the passages that seem like the might be important outside of her
inevitable and incredibly dull rise to queendom.
Post by John S Novak, III
Mat walking through Altara? Bored me to tears. Glad that's over and
he's back with the Band where he fucking should be. For a while, I was
thinking he'd end up with Perrin helping with the Faile situation.
Skimmed all of this, too. At least it only lasted for like a book or
so. His time in Ebou Dar (outside of the disturbing and also
uninteresting Tylin parts) was okay, though.
Post by John S Novak, III
Perrin moping over Faile? Bored me to tears. Faile screwing around
with Galina and Sevanna? Bored me to tears. Aiel in the Heartlands?
Bored me to tears.
(And when I say "bored me to tears" I don't mean in this book, I mean
since they bloody began. Each of these could have been reduced to two
or three chapters TOTAL and the series would have been stronger.)
This was the only plot thread that I didn't just skim quickly to make
sure nothing interesting happen, I just turned past 5-10 pages at a
time. I never cared, not even a little bit. I want Faile to die, and
she won't. And she transformed Perrin from a reasonable cool character
into a monomaniacal idiot with no moral compass and few redeeming
qualities. Thanks!
Post by John S Novak, III
You know what didn't happen? Resolution of interesting things.
Mat and the Snakes and Foxes? Acknowledge, barely opened, not resolved.
Still, the cards are all out on the table now.
Post by John S Novak, III
Egwene and the Tower Revolt? Developed, not resolved.
At least the development was pretty satisfying this time, instead of
more dithering around in the middle of nowhere.
Post by John S Novak, III
Rand and Tuon making their accord? Mentioned, moved, not resolved.
Rand and Tuon actually meeting will be interesting, if it happens.
Post by John S Novak, III
Borderland armies? Not resolved. (Although I hesitate to call that one
"interesting" to be truthful.)
Not interesting.
Post by John S Novak, III
This was very much in the way of Jordan finally getting off his ass and
hacking back the plot vines so the characters could do what it is
they're bloody supposed to do for a change. All of which waits for next
book. (Is the next one supposed to be the last one, now?)
This was actually a decent book, and the series would be in good shape
if the like three books before it had been condensed into one.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.
I may have missed it, but I don't think she took any damn baths, either.
I thought she did take a bath. Maybe not; her scenes from the last 900
books all bleed together in my mind.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
Okay, now *this*, I really liked. Once you can get past the inherent
stupidity of Elaida's decision (not hard to swallow, since Elaida has
the IQ of boiled turnip) it bordered on masterful.
Somehow I'm surprised that someone as stupid as Elaida has managed not
not accidentally kill herself with common household items, in the rather
long time she's been alive. Dude.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
15) Faile has finally reverted to the smart, capable and decent young
heroine she seemed during the Two Rivers campaign. She really has
acquired quite an entourage of her own. She also speaks the Old Tongue.
In a related note, Perrin defeats the Shaido with a stroke of genius.
I didn't see genius.
I also effectively saw Perrin say, "I don't care what happens to the
world-- the Seanchan can have it, and probably the Dark One, too, as
long as I get Faile." Note that Perrin doesn't have Rand's insight into
the situation, either, and has no notion that the Seanchan are
"supposed" to get half the continent. No, he just gave it all up for
Faile.
Like I said above, Perrin started out cool, and is now not in any way
cool. He's an idiot. With no sense of perspective. And the woman he's
obsessed with is, herself, a deeply unpleasant person.

Even crazy dead-woman-listing Rand has a healthier grip on the world.
Post by John S Novak, III
Oh, any bets that Morgase burned herself out?
She's still alive, which...meh.
--
Michael Bruce
***@jhereg.net
Aaron Clark
2005-10-16 05:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Michael Bruce wrote:

*SNIP*
Post by Michael Bruce
Like I said above, Perrin started out cool, and is now not in any way
cool. He's an idiot. With no sense of perspective. And the woman he's
obsessed with is, herself, a deeply unpleasant person.
Even crazy dead-woman-listing Rand has a healthier grip on the world.
Mat is easily the most grounded of the lot. He wouldn't be involved in
any of this mess if he had his choice.

Aaron
John S Novak, III
2005-10-16 06:33:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bruce
Post by John S Novak, III
Okay, now *this*, I really liked. Once you can get past the inherent
stupidity of Elaida's decision (not hard to swallow, since Elaida has
the IQ of boiled turnip) it bordered on masterful.
Somehow I'm surprised that someone as stupid as Elaida has managed not
not accidentally kill herself with common household items, in the rather
long time she's been alive. Dude.
"Elaida? Don't take the cork off the fork."
--
John S. Novak, III
The Humblest Man On The Net
Jim Hill
2005-10-17 03:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by Michael Bruce
Post by John S Novak, III
Okay, now *this*, I really liked. Once you can get past the inherent
stupidity of Elaida's decision (not hard to swallow, since Elaida has
the IQ of boiled turnip) it bordered on masterful.
Somehow I'm surprised that someone as stupid as Elaida has managed not
not accidentally kill herself with common household items, in the rather
long time she's been alive. Dude.
"Elaida? Don't take the cork off the fork."
"Alviarin! Alviarinalviarinalviarin! ... I have to go to the bathroom."


Jim
--
"Saying a flaw in evolutionary theory proves Intelligent Design correct
is like seeing an episode of the Dukes of Hazzard and concluding that
automobiles are capable of sustained flight." -- Andy Hopkins
Sorcha
2005-10-16 21:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bruce
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Oh, any bets that Morgase burned herself out?
She's still alive, which...meh.
I thought that she just keeled over from the effects of the Evil Tea,
no? She keeled over shortly after having a great big drink of water
from a Shaido waterskin, remember...

Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography,
There's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson - Art and Lies
j***@cub.kcnet.org
2005-10-16 18:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Overall, I liked it. I was certainly the best since LoC, but still
lacking, IMHO. Nothing will ever top tSR for me, but anyway, I digress.
Random spoilers in no particular order
1) I predicted (as did many of you) that Galad would challenge Eamon
Valda to a duel of honor over Morgase, and well, yeah. That happened.
And was then NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN. Okay, not strictly true-- it was
mentioned once as a reported event toward the end of the book, but it
played no role in the rest of the book.
This has begun to seriously piss me off about Jordan's notion of
"prologue". Usually, prologues deal with stuff that actually happens in
the pages that follow. Not so, Jordan, it's apparently just a bin for
random shit that felt like putting in.
This worked well in earlier books. It works horribly after the big
nothing-happened that was COT. And it particularly does not work in
the presumed next to the last book that has really nothing much happen.
Post by John S Novak, III
Also, the notion of a proogue that's more than 12% of the text's length
continues to be a dumbass notion.
I think this is Jordan's adversarial mode kicking in even when he _has_
to write toward some type of resolutions in the next 88%.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
2) This book was Sappho-rific!
However, having said all that, the revelation about Galina particularly
makes me think that RJ is definitely influenced by his readers, no
matter what he claims. Galina's vaguely lascivious comments regarding
Erian, way back when, sparked discussion of her orientation, and now he
sees fit to set the record, uh, straight.
Yes, and he seems to have gone the other way-- from being intentionally
obfuscatory to finally making concessions to the implications of what he
writes. It's a slight improvement.
Over COT? Yes. For me though it has a long way to go to reaching the
heights of ACOS let alone his style previous to that.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
4) Similarly, RJ saw fit to clear up a few, umm, oversights in his
world set-up. We learn that the Tinkers *do* have a cultural method of
dealing with girls who can channel, and yes, there is even a Malkieri
Aes Sedai! A somewhat less than stellar Green named Nacelle.
Apparently, there were many, but they all got themselves killed on
vigilante quests.
See above.
AS I already stated, the Tinkers bit was already known. The Malkieri
seemed a sop to readers. A "stop with that question already!!!" move.
The odd thing is it really could have been addressed much earlier and
with a bit more exposition/personal history and integration to make it
a "cool" Jordan bit instead of a fill int eh blank/check off the list
move.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
You know what actually happened, when you stop to think?
A bunch of *really fucking annoying* plot threads got resolved, not much
more. Which, granted, is an improvement over *no* plot threads getting
resolved.
This is my main complaint. Despite the orgasmic shreiks of "things
happen!!" what I see KOD doing is nothing more than returning much to
status quo. I think it is a joke that Jordan develops some of the
silliest plot contrivances as obstacles for progression and continuance
and then gets cheered and patted on the back for finally removing them.
Post by John S Novak, III
Elayne's troubles in Andor? Bored me to tears. Glad that's nominally
done.
What worries me is that it is not. This was the least annoying for
existing so it tended to be the least annoying overall. I thought the
political stability of Andor and Cairhien should be addressed. Plus
the murder of Adeleas and Ispan and the potential of the Kin to blow up
several mysteries and misconceptions of the Tower was enough to get
past the baths and the morning sickness and the silliness. For the
most part. The fact that Jordan ended this in a rather bland way, not
to mention a way that could have been resolved as soon as Arymilla and
her armies showed up is pathetic.
Post by John S Novak, III
Mat walking through Altara? Bored me to tears. Glad that's over and
he's back with the Band where he fucking should be. For a while, I was
thinking he'd end up with Perrin helping with the Faile situation.
This tied with Perrin's plotline in most annoying. So much I wanted to
hunt down every reader that complained about no Mat in TPOD. There was
a reason folks! It's becaue Jordan hasn't a clue as to what or how he
is going to address the whole matter! All we saw was Mat getting
molested, pinched, glared at, sneered at, giggled at and everything
else to make him stomp around like a three year old with low sugar.
Post by John S Novak, III
Perrin moping over Faile? Bored me to tears. Faile screwing around
with Galina and Sevanna? Bored me to tears. Aiel in the Heartlands?
Bored me to tears.
Still does. Oh and Morgase is still Maighdin. Masema is stil out
there. A Seanchan general thinsk Perrin is just swell, but the
Seanchan are back to their old selves and have another three hundred
damane to play with. Brilliant Perrin. What's more? Perrin sends in
covert ops if you will to take out Faile but still allows the Seanchan
to collar and enslave people. As a distraction. Granted the silly
Galina drops a house on Faile prevented that. Made it necessary. But
somehow Perrin as desperate in the name of love is supposed to be
compelling in his sheer and utter idiocy. I hope Rand finds out and
balefires Perrin and Faile both back to the point they never met.
Post by John S Novak, III
(And when I say "bored me to tears" I don't mean in this book, I mean
since they bloody began. Each of these could have been reduced to two
or three chapters TOTAL and the series would have been stronger.)
Much much stronger
Post by John S Novak, III
You know what didn't happen? Resolution of interesting things.
Mat and the Snakes and Foxes? Acknowledge, barely opened, not resolved.
Egwene and the Tower Revolt? Developed, not resolved.
Rand and Tuon making their accord? Mentioned, moved, not resolved.
Borderland armies? Not resolved. (Although I hesitate to call that one
"interesting" to be truthful.)
Fain? Isam/Slayer? The Horn? Nothing.
And the hunt for the BA (beyond yet another meeting in cold halls of
the Tower that accomplished nothing really -- would it kill Jordan to
actually show one of these BA getting taken?)? Nothing.

Any sense that more than one Forsaken does anything at a time?
Nothing.

Sadly the list that Rich made awhile back of plotpoints needed
resolving has shrunk by three? Four?
Post by John S Novak, III
This was very much in the way of Jordan finally getting off his ass and
hacking back the plot vines so the characters could do what it is
they're bloody supposed to do for a change. All of which waits for next
book. (Is the next one supposed to be the last one, now?)
Yes. that is what he is claiming left and right. Not sure how its
going to happen in one more book that won't end in tears and
recrimination though.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.
I may have missed it, but I don't think she took any damn baths, either.
No. Today's Elayne theme was mood swings. Can you say "mood swings"
everybody?
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
10) Romanda gets a POV, and we finally get a slant on her that makes
her seem more human and less of a caricature. Plus, she's sharp and
instantly makes a connection between the deaths of Kairen, Anaiya and
Cabriana Mercandes that rings true and *actually* acts on it!
I still thought she was a twit, but I did get some respect for her
deductive abilities.
The odd thing is why the hell didn't someone twit to the fact that
Halima came from Cabriana? Like, say, Siuan? Oh wait. She's too busy
pining after Bryne. And apparently she can't figure out the too young
sitter mystery. For someone supposedly so good at solving puzzles,
Siuan pretty much sucks.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
11) Oh, and Sharina Melloy is an organizational genius.
She's a grandmother.
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
Okay, now *this*, I really liked. Once you can get past the inherent
stupidity of Elaida's decision (not hard to swallow, since Elaida has
the IQ of boiled turnip) it bordered on masterful.
It was marred, of course, by the stubborn refusal to include the *other*
chapter of this arc (and really, it requires no more than one or two,
told properly) wherein Egwene faces Elaida down in public and reminds
the Tar Valon Hall and Heads just exactly what an Amyrlin is-- and just
how short Elaida falls of that lofty mark.
For me it was marred by the rushed nature of Egwene's section. Perrin
could have had two chapters and so could have Elayne for all the real
exposition there was from the opening return of their individual
threads to their closing moment.
Post by John S Novak, III
Because mark me words, within five minutes of Egwene's refusal to curtsy
in front of her, Elaida would be shrieking, foaming, and would probably
have half the Hall restraining her from "punishing" Egwene to death. Or
worse, she'd get so mad during the punishment that the Oath would kick
in-- publically.
I have a feeling that Elaida and Egwene both might just find themselves
guests of the BA hunters since Meidani is along. Because after months
and months of dithering, maybe just as the DO straps one on to screw
all of humanity, the BA hunters realize that figuring out whether the
Amyrlin seat you follow walks in the Light might not be a bad thing.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Were they smart enough to Still her? Or is she going to escape in the
first three pages of the next prologue?
Let's see. Woman. Rand. By chapter three Rand will be wearing a
one-sey and learn to call Semi "mommy" all the while LTT gibbers madly
in his head.
Chapter two will have Cadsuane getting him ready by spanking him for
being rude to Semirhage during questioning.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
15) Faile has finally reverted to the smart, capable and decent young
heroine she seemed during the Two Rivers campaign. She really has
acquired quite an entourage of her own. She also speaks the Old Tongue.
In a related note, Perrin defeats the Shaido with a stroke of genius.
I didn't see genius.
I also effectively saw Perrin say, "I don't care what happens to the
world-- the Seanchan can have it, and probably the Dark One, too, as
long as I get Faile." Note that Perrin doesn't have Rand's insight into
the situation, either, and has no notion that the Seanchan are
"supposed" to get half the continent. No, he just gave it all up for
Faile.
What's more is the set up (see above) was such that he seemingly did
not have to. The intention was for the Seanchan to be a diversion.
While Faile snuck out a tunnel.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
21) The scene with the arrival of a party of Reds willing to bond
Asha'man at the Black Tower was actually very, very menacing and well
done, and is one hell of a cliff-hanger.
I also suspect that Taim is masquerading as Sammael.
You and I agreed that Taim was the guy in WH with Slayer and I see
neither of us have changed out minds.
Post by John S Novak, III
It's plausible that "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" is a phrase he got from
Sammael, and he never got the "Don't kill Rand" memo through Ishamael,
thus explaining the big attack.
(It's possible that Moridin is just plain lying, too.)
Well the pov of the one renegade seemed to think that Taim should be
aware of orders from Moridin and Demandred. So I think that Taim tooks
orders from both at one point. Ishamael was the one to coral him
initially and Demandred took over when Ishamael died at Tear.
Post by John S Novak, III
Oh, any bets that Morgase burned herself out?
Which means she will look even younger and then _no one_ not even her
own children or step-child will recognize her. The Maighdin madness
will live on forever.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
I liked it, a lot.
It didn't suck.
Well in a way it did. It just didn't suck as badly as it could have.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
Stuff really happens.
Detritus was swept away.
Exactly.
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
Characters develop (finally)
and acquire new dimensions.
Some.
Granted, it's nearly impossible for Jordan to get my good will back, at
this point.
I think at this point for Jordan to do so, he would need to sit down at
my kitchen table and ask "so what do I need to do?" to get my goodwill
back. Either that or send me the key to his archives of notes and
disappear forever with the series unfinished but me knowing how he
planned to end it in a general sense.


---
JSH
Peter Reid
2005-10-20 15:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
<snip>
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Post by John S Novak, III
I also effectively saw Perrin say, "I don't care what happens to the
world-- the Seanchan can have it, and probably the Dark One, too, as
long as I get Faile." Note that Perrin doesn't have Rand's insight into
the situation, either, and has no notion that the Seanchan are
"supposed" to get half the continent. No, he just gave it all up for
Faile.
What's more is the set up (see above) was such that he seemingly did
not have to. The intention was for the Seanchan to be a diversion.
While Faile snuck out a tunnel.
Actually, another of his goals was to eliminate the Shaido threat
entirely. He needed the Seanchan to do that. He did not want to leave
the Shaido around afterwards.
--
Peter Reid
***@CAPSrogers.com
Grant Anderson
2005-10-16 19:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Oh, any bets that Morgase burned herself out?
When she conked out just after drinking, I was under the impression the
water she got was forkrooted.

Cheers,
Grant
David Chapman
2005-10-16 20:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Anderson
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Oh, any bets that Morgase burned herself out?
When she conked out just after drinking, I was under the impression the
water she got was forkrooted.
Not an unwise assumption, seeing as how we *know* it was forkrooted.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Alaric Fox
2005-10-17 04:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
Spoilers for the Uninitiated
Oh, any bets that Morgase burned herself out?
Yes, I bet she didn't. She collapsed right after drinking water
(presumably) laced with Forkroot Tea. Forkroot affects channellers in
much smaller quantities than nonchannelers (hence Faile, Alisandre, and
the rest of the Shaido camp besides most of the Wise Ones not noticing
anything). Hence, Morgase likely can still channel, as the Forkroot
apparently affected her.

--Alaric
Erica Sadun
2005-10-19 18:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John S Novak, III
Post by r***@gmail.com
I liked it, a lot.
It didn't suck.
I thought it sucked. Really sucked. Oreck-level sucked.
Not only did it suck, but it reached new levels of suckitude.
It was at the sucky level of oh my sucky goodness why in the
name of suck did I pick up this sucky book and start reading it?

If stupidity were a terminal disease for his characters,
Jordan's books would be full of empty landscapes with only a
wind blowing across them.

And maybe an occasional tumbleweed. For the style and all.

-- Erica, expecting in the next one the prologue will be
bigger than the book itself.
--
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow man.
The rest is commentary."
Michael Ikeda
2005-10-19 23:00:26 UTC
Permalink
Erica Sadun <***@mindspring.com> wrote in news:erica-
***@news1.west.earthlink.net:

(snipped)
Post by Erica Sadun
-- Erica, expecting in the next one the prologue will be
bigger than the book itself.
It'll be a three-volume set. The prologue will be volumes 1 and 2...

Hey, a trilogy worked for Tolkien... :)
--
Michael Ikeda ***@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Jamie Bowden
2005-10-20 18:13:12 UTC
Permalink
If stupidity were a terminal disease for his characters, Jordan's books
would be full of empty landscapes with only a wind blowing across them.
We visited that landscape in The Great Hunt.

Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <***@alaric.org.uk>
Ryan Ward
2005-10-16 15:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
<snipped 1-4>
Post by r***@gmail.com
5) For that matter, we finally see some of the pocket refuge
communities of Malkieri! In related thoughts, Nynaeve rules. Trust me.
Negative, sir. I can't quite put my finger on why I was so bored with
that scene. My best guess is because it's Book 11 and she still hasn't
completely shed her petulant bitch-ness entirely, only just started.
That doesn't make her cool; that makes it very sad people in the story
looked at her for leadership.
Post by r***@gmail.com
6) Stuff really happens. It's true. So much gets resolved it is
startling!
Like what?

Mat and Tuon get married, then Tuon gets sent back to Ebou Dar and
makes Suroth howl. That resolved the whole "marry the DotNM" thing,
yeah, but what else? We don't know if this gives Mat some actual,
useable authority (is 'Prince of the Ravens' the same as 'Emperor'?)
or not.

Rand growls and spits some, learns some new weaves from LTT, then the
fact that he is, in truth, hearing the voice of LTT gets revealed at
the end of a horrendously lame-ass fight scene. He got the sad
bracelets, lost a hand, his dirty secret is out, and they have another
Forsaken. What did that resolve? Everyone knows Rand is crazy so it'll
be Cadsuance, Nynaeve, Alivia and whoever else that will collar him?
Kind of a reversal of the Seanchan idea that marath'damane are rabid
dogs?

Elayne is sorta on the throne, but not really since this is RJ and we
didn't actually *see* her get the crown. She captured Black Ajah who
have been running around under the radar since Book 7 (?) and it was
at the cost of two Aes Sedai and 600 (?) other lives, some of which
were balefired. What did that resolve that *actually mattered*?

Perrin gets Faile back... while becoming a total and utter bastard in
the process. (I'll get back to that in a minute.) That is done, true.
Now what? Was there a point to filling pages with this, other than
filler and/or keeping Perrin occupied until the Last Battle? At least
with Mat's thread he made a solid political connection and gained a
position of some authority, though how much is unclear right now. What
did Perrin do, other than get people killed?
Post by r***@gmail.com
7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
the established story. Well done, RJ. Unfortunately, Vandene dies, and
she was always one of the more plausible and decent Aes Sedai figures.
8) Elayne's annoying plot is all but done. Yay! Alas, RJ has developed
an annoying habit of making sure we know the names of all the
Guardswomen, plus a small tidbit of their backstories.
Please see above. Additionally, this arc shows how truly selfish and
balls-over-brains that Elayne really is. She feels like Min gave her a
bulletproof vest with her viewing and the hell with everyone else. The
lack of foresight she had in previous books has been magnified
considerably; the only reason she's still breathing is because RJ has
surrounded the fool with capable people. That's a recurring themes in
these books I think.

<snip 9-11>
Post by r***@gmail.com
12) Egwene seriously rocks. She has grown like ten-thousand fold
between books. Coldly brilliant, resolved and serene, she plants seeds
of revolt cunningly and subtly, wows the novices, and makes friends and
influences people.
Why can't most of the heroes act like this? Even half the time?
Post by r***@gmail.com
13) Rand loses his hand in a strangely anti-climactic scene, but
Semirhage is captured. Semirhage's by-name, by the way, was Lady of
Pain. Pretty cool.
Additionally from above, this sucked. All of the stuff Jordan has to
work with, and Rand is just plain ol' crazy? That's it? It's not
past-life seapage? Not T'A'R? Not a DO plot? He's just regular,
vanilla crazy and it just so happens his voice feeds him useful
information? Christ. On the bright side, maybe this is what will make
the people in his party back-off and shut-up (like Cadsuance, maybe,
sort of). They know he's bonkers; maybe they'll realize he isn't in
complete control anymore and they won't be so eager to hit him with OP
sticks. Also, what is the deal with his mind-meld with Morridin? WTF?
Is this so they'll be able to find each other at the Last Battle and
duke it out Falme-style?

<snip 14>
Post by r***@gmail.com
15) Faile has finally reverted to the smart, capable and decent young
heroine she seemed during the Two Rivers campaign. She really has
acquired quite an entourage of her own. She also speaks the Old Tongue.
In a related note, Perrin defeats the Shaido with a stroke of genius.
I said above that Perrin acted like a total and utter bastard. I don't
say that because of his deal with the Seanchan: fuck the Shaido and
double-fuck their WO. They deserved what they got for the way they've
behaved. As a bonus to victory, what's left of them are headed back to
the Waste with Galina, serves her ass right, and don't feel the need
to loot and kill on their way back. Not a bad day's work for the guy
who bludgeoned to death the three people who saved his stupid wife's
ass. That made me really angry. I know he was in a "battle rage" and
it looked bad and all, but that just sucked. You could like Perrin at
the start because he thought things through and made an effort to
treat people with respect. Now he's just an asshole addicted to a
woman who isn't any good six days out of seven, and he's lost all
sympathy and support as a hero. I want somebody to slip up and tell
him who he killed so he spends a week in weeping solitude, if he has
any soul left at all. Of course, then he might get it in his head to
find the septs of the mara'din he killed and apologize. That'd take
another five books to tell.

<snip 16, 17>
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.
What, exactly, is so evil about how the Seanchan treat damane?
Nevermind. That's a whole other thread. My fault.

<snip 19-21>

- Ward
Jamie Bowden
2005-10-20 15:52:50 UTC
Permalink

Post by Ryan Ward
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.
What, exactly, is so evil about how the Seanchan treat damane?
Nevermind. That's a whole other thread. My fault.
If you don't get why treating people as things is inherently evil, you're
broken.

Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <***@alaric.org.uk>
Erica Sadun
2005-10-21 18:46:30 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Jamie Bowden
If you don't get why treating people as things is inherently evil, you're
broken.
Jamie Bowden
Perfectly put. -- Erica
--
"If you don't get why treating people as things is inherently
evil, you're broken." -- Jamie Bowden
Ryan Ward
2005-10-22 02:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie Bowden

Post by Ryan Ward
Post by r***@gmail.com
18) Everyone behaves stoically, heroically, intelligently and
pragmatically, but I have noted a disturbing tendency on the parts of
many of the characters to tolerate the chattel slavery and mind-fucking
of the Seanchan social system. Mat and Perrin, specifically, I am
looking at you. Rand, as well. Perrin, for example, bought the
assistance of the Seanchan with the promise of hundreds of new damane.
That's a slippery slope you tread, pal.
What, exactly, is so evil about how the Seanchan treat damane?
Nevermind. That's a whole other thread. My fault.
If you don't get why treating people as things is inherently evil, you're
broken.
WTF? Please, don't do that.

When I wrote that I was trying to think of a significant difference
between how the Seanchan treat their channellers and any of the other
OP groups we've seen so far. Other than the Kin, it seems like
standard operating procedure with all the other channellers to beat
and humiliate their initiates for the most trivial infractions. My
point is in Randland, no one's hands are clean.

As the series has progressed I've started to think it would be a
wonderful idea to make the worst of the Aes Sedai bullies (example:
Cadsuane) wear a collar for a month or two and get a refresher taste
of what it feels like to be mistreated by people just 'cause they can.
I'm sure that's not the reaction Jordan was going for but it's the one
I've had.

- Ward
i***@aol.com
2005-10-16 21:47:14 UTC
Permalink
.
.
.
spoiler space
.
.
2)Sappho-riffic
I guess I'm disappointed but not surprised to have found RJ indulging
in his 3 favorite fantasies so heavily and more blatantly, lesbian
activity in girls who like boys (mostly), bondage (given all the
spanking going on) and (more last book) Rand and his foursome. These
passages just filled up space annoyingly.
13) Rand loses his hand
21) I agree this was the best scene in the series since the climactic battle in LOC.
I think this was the best book since ACOS, maybe better. I may
actually reread this one.

Matt

OK, I was way off on what I was expecting for a scene here. I thought
for some reason Elayne was going to be involved with the severed hand,
based on Min's viewing. I guess this devolves to The Band of the Red
Hand.
Mitchell Swan
2005-10-17 18:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
*URK* Please. This makes my head hurt.

The word is *jibe* ladies and gentlemen. Nothing of significance has
"jived" since Barbara Billingsley in Airplane.
--
Mitch
Johan Gustafsson
2005-10-17 21:01:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mitchell Swan
[...] It actually makes sense and jives with
*URK* Please. This makes my head hurt.
The word is *jibe* ladies and gentlemen. Nothing of significance has
"jived" since Barbara Billingsley in Airplane.
Man, you must love this sentence like I love lingonberry jam.
--
Johan Gustafsson *** ***@e-bostad.net

Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President?
r***@gmail.com
2005-10-18 00:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mitchell Swan
Post by r***@gmail.com
KoD - Random Boye' Thoughts
It was available at my local non-chain bookshop. I was off yesterday,
and went to town on the book.
7) We learn who killed Adeleas. It actually makes sense and jives with
*URK* Please. This makes my head hurt.
The word is *jibe* ladies and gentlemen. Nothing of significance has
"jived" since Barbara Billingsley in Airplane.
Ach, oh stop it.

Perhaps I meant it in the Billingsleyan way.

--
RMB
Mitchell Swan
2005-10-18 13:11:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Mitchell Swan
The word is *jibe* ladies and gentlemen. Nothing of significance has
"jived" since Barbara Billingsley in Airplane.
Ach, oh stop it.
Perhaps I meant it in the Billingsleyan way.
Fine. Be that way.

Chump don't want no help, chump don't get no help.


It's a pet peeve. What can I say?
--
Mitch
r***@gmail.com
2005-10-18 15:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mitchell Swan
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Mitchell Swan
The word is *jibe* ladies and gentlemen. Nothing of significance has
"jived" since Barbara Billingsley in Airplane.
Ach, oh stop it.
Perhaps I meant it in the Billingsleyan way.
Fine. Be that way.
Chump don't want no help, chump don't get no help.
It's a pet peeve. What can I say?
Well, it's also a metal foible of mine. I refer you to this
conversation:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V2D93200C

Three years ago!

--
RMB
Post by Mitchell Swan
--
Mitch
Mitchell Swan
2005-10-18 17:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Well, it's also a metal foible of mine. I refer you to this
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V2D93200C
Three years ago!
Johan had alluded to seeing that before, and I was positive that I'd
"said" that before, (I am fairly fond of saying that, usually face to
face) I was just under the impression that it had been a different forum.

That I had said this before not only in this forum, but to YOU again,
is too funny.
--
Mitch
"While I am new to these things, I cannot help wondering whether it
might be disrespectful to vault over an altar that way."
Mitchell Swan
2005-10-18 17:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Three years ago!
And damned near to the day as well!
--
Mitch
"While I am new to these things, I cannot help wondering whether it
might be disrespectful to vault over an altar that way."
i***@aol.com
2005-10-18 19:16:31 UTC
Permalink
....spoiler

BTW, what did you think of Aram's ignominilus end? Considering the
ominous visions of him a few books ago I thought his demise pretty much
smacked of I never did figure out what I wanted to do with this plot
thread so I'm just ditching it here.

Matt
Ash
2005-10-18 20:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@aol.com
....spoiler
space added
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Post by i***@aol.com
BTW, what did you think of Aram's ignominilus end? Considering the
ominous visions of him a few books ago I thought his demise pretty much
smacked of I never did figure out what I wanted to do with this plot
thread so I'm just ditching it here.
Matt
Especially as the dream had it that everyime he stepped closer to
Perrin, danger threatened, but in the end, it was stepping away from
Perrin and towards Masema that caused the problems
Tony Zbaraschuk
2005-10-19 07:06:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@aol.com
....spoiler
BTW, what did you think of Aram's ignominilus end? Considering the
ominous visions of him a few books ago I thought his demise pretty much
smacked of I never did figure out what I wanted to do with this plot
thread so I'm just ditching it here.
Pretty much. Aram's picking up the sword back in tSR was a major,
iconic moment in the series.



This... bah.




Tony Z
--
"History will be kind to me. I intend to write it."
--Sir Winston Churchill
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