Randish technological advancement

[Chris McCrohan]

Two things that occur in KOD:

*Steam engines, which first appeared at the start of LOC or ACOS (I
forget which one), reach completion and are put into service.

*Mat and Aludra work out how to make cannons (which Aludra refers to as
'dragons').

Now, Aludra mentions that several horses would be required to move a
dragon. I'm guessing the horses would get pretty tired pretty quickly
if they were assigned to do that a lot.

Those steam engines, on the other hand, would be an excellent way to
pull dragons, and I foresee that they will be used thusly in the Last
Battle.

However...how long until someone comes up with the idea of putting
dragons on the top of steam engines, thus creating steam powered tanks?
The Shadow would never expect that! (Unless, of course, some Darkfriend
blabs to a Foresaken, but still.)

[Andrew Lusk]

<snip>

Post by Chris McCrohan
Those steam engines, on the other hand, would be an excellent way to
pull dragons, and I foresee that they will be used thusly in the Last
Battle.
However...how long until someone comes up with the idea of putting
dragons on the top of steam engines, thus creating steam powered tanks?
The Shadow would never expect that! (Unless, of course, some Darkfriend
blabs to a Foresaken, but still.)

This seems to be the conventional wisdom or thought, i.e., that
Mat/Forces of the Light will have a huge tactical advantage in the Last
Battle (or before) when they use "modern" weapons/artillery (even if
rudimentary) to decimate or devastate the Shadow forces. But here's
the thing that rubs me: Wouldn't the idea of improving/modernizing
your armies weapons (and armor for that matter) also occur to Moridin
or the Forsaken in general? I mean, the idea of artilery is not
exactly new to them, considering that the last war was fought with even
more complex weapons and vehicles (shocklances, jo-cars and who knows
what else). Perhaps Moridin (who is supposed to be one of the smartest
and greatest philosphers of his time) doesn't have enough knowledge
himself to build a steam engine or a cannon, or any of the other
advanced technoligies from the AoL (just because he lived during that
time, doesn't mean he knows how to engineer and manufacture the stuff),
but he certainly must understand the concept. E.g., I might not know
how to make a cannon, but if I were transported back in time 800 years,
I'd certainly, remember that there were things called cannons (or are
things called cannons. . . or will be things called cannons) and put
myself and my minions and lackeys to the task to "inventing" them. And
if Mat and Aludra can stumble accross the invention, couldn't Moridin
or other Forsaken do the same, only more easily, since they already
know it's possible?

[Legolas]

Post by Andrew Lusk
<snip>

Post by Chris McCrohan
Those steam engines, on the other hand, would be an excellent way to
pull dragons, and I foresee that they will be used thusly in the Last
Battle.
However...how long until someone comes up with the idea of putting
dragons on the top of steam engines, thus creating steam powered tanks?
The Shadow would never expect that! (Unless, of course, some

Darkfriend

Post by Andrew Lusk

Post by Chris McCrohan
blabs to a Foresaken, but still.)

This seems to be the conventional wisdom or thought, i.e., that
Mat/Forces of the Light will have a huge tactical advantage in the Last
Battle (or before) when they use "modern" weapons/artillery (even if
rudimentary) to decimate or devastate the Shadow forces. But here's
the thing that rubs me: Wouldn't the idea of improving/modernizing
your armies weapons (and armor for that matter) also occur to

Moridin

Post by Andrew Lusk
or the Forsaken in general? I mean, the idea of artilery is not
exactly new to them, considering that the last war was fought with even
more complex weapons and vehicles (shocklances, jo-cars and who knows
what else). Perhaps Moridin (who is supposed to be one of the

smartest

Post by Andrew Lusk
and greatest philosphers of his time) doesn't have enough knowledge
himself to build a steam engine or a cannon, or any of the other
advanced technoligies from the AoL (just because he lived during that
time, doesn't mean he knows how to engineer and manufacture the stuff),
but he certainly must understand the concept. E.g., I might not know
how to make a cannon, but if I were transported back in time 800 years,
I'd certainly, remember that there were things called cannons (or are
things called cannons. . . or will be things called cannons) and put
myself and my minions and lackeys to the task to "inventing" them.

And

Post by Andrew Lusk
if Mat and Aludra can stumble accross the invention, couldn't

Moridin

Post by Andrew Lusk
or other Forsaken do the same, only more easily, since they already
know it's possible?

Not only are you right, but given the damage (and precision) that can
be done with the OP, who needs a stupid cannon or tank? If the
world's surface was literally transformed during the breaking of the
world, it was most probably not due to explosives.

[Pat O'Connell]

[KOD technology discussion snipped]

Post by Legolas
Not only are you right, but given the damage (and precision) that can
be done with the OP, who needs a stupid cannon or tank? If the
world's surface was literally transformed during the breaking of the
world, it was most probably not due to explosives.

In the books, we're in the Third Age. Use of the OP as a weapon by the
Good Guys requires either an Ashaman (one on Rand's side), a former
damane, or a non-black Aes Sedai that hasn't taken the three oaths
(Wondergirls, etc.), and there aren't that many of them. There's still a
place for cannon or mortars.

[The Mad Alchemist]

Post by Pat O'Connell
In the books, we're in the Third Age. Use of the OP as a weapon by the
Good Guys requires either an Ashaman (one on Rand's side), a former
damane, or a non-black Aes Sedai that hasn't taken the three oaths
(Wondergirls, etc.), and there aren't that many of them. There's still a
place for cannon or mortars.

Especially if the one power starts going funny, as it's been doing
lately.

[Chris McCrohan]

Post by Pat O'Connell
In the books, we're in the Third Age. Use of the OP as a weapon by the
Good Guys requires either an Ashaman (one on Rand's side), a former
damane, or a non-black Aes Sedai that hasn't taken the three oaths
(Wondergirls, etc.), and there aren't that many of them. There's still a
place for cannon or mortars.

Not necessarily. If you'll remember, the Third Oath specifically states
that an Aes Sedai can use the One Power as a weapon against
Shadowspawn; Moiraine was able to use it against Be'lal as well, which
implies that Darkfriends in general are counted as Shadowspawn as well.
Hence Aes Sedai are well able to participate in the Last Battle, even
under Oath.

Another thought on the Three Oaths - the Second seems to be the only
one without a convenient loophole. The First can be circumvented by
doubletalk, while the Third can be bent by deliberately placing oneself
in danger. However, might the Second not apply to Aes Sedai building
artillery?

The reason I think this is because the Second Oath specifically says an
Aes Sedai may not make any weapon with which one an may kill another.
However, a steam powered tank would require several men to operate - at
least one to drive, one to load the cannon, and one to shoot. (Modern
high-tech tanks generall require about six people to operate, so
there's a fair chance a WoT tank might need more). Thus, since just one
man would be totally unable to kill another using a steam tank, Aes
Sedai would probably be able to make them without any problems.

[f***@gmail.com]

Post by Chris McCrohan
Another thought on the Three Oaths - the Second seems to be the only
one without a convenient loophole. The First can be circumvented by
doubletalk, while the Third can be bent by deliberately placing oneself
in danger. However, might the Second not apply to Aes Sedai building
artillery?
The reason I think this is because the Second Oath specifically says an
Aes Sedai may not make any weapon with which one an may kill another.
However, a steam powered tank would require several men to operate - at
least one to drive, one to load the cannon, and one to shoot. (Modern
high-tech tanks generall require about six people to operate, so
there's a fair chance a WoT tank might need more). Thus, since just one
man would be totally unable to kill another using a steam tank, Aes
Sedai would probably be able to make them without any problems.

This is true, I guess, but consider who has the knowledge of how to
make a cannon: Mat and Aludra. I don't really foresee Mat enlisting
Aes Sedai help to make the cannons. Why would he? They can be made by
any old bellfounder that he instructs. While Aes Sedai-made cannons
would be unbreakable, that's not a huge advantage; not worth the
trouble of getting their help. Besides, all the poor non-Aes-Sedai
non-ta'veran folks on the Light's side need something to do, right?

[The Mad Alchemist]

While Aes Sedai-made cannons would be unbreakable, that's
not a huge advantage; not worth the trouble of getting their help.

It's true that Mat and Aludra could merrily make lots of cannons
without the help of the AS, an unbreakable cannon really would be worth
something. You could make them out of much thinner metal, making them
easier to move (although you'd have to have them on a heavy cart to
deal with the recoil), and you could make a lot more of them from the
same amount of bronze/iron/whatever.

Also, early cannons were known to break during firing on occasion,
killing the entire crew. An unbreakable one would be much safer to be
around.

[l***@gmail.com]

Post by The Mad Alchemist

While Aes Sedai-made cannons would be unbreakable, that's
not a huge advantage; not worth the trouble of getting their help.

It's true that Mat and Aludra could merrily make lots of cannons
without the help of the AS, an unbreakable cannon really would be worth
something. You could make them out of much thinner metal, making them
easier to move (although you'd have to have them on a heavy cart to
deal with the recoil), and you could make a lot more of them from the
same amount of bronze/iron/whatever.
Also, early cannons were known to break during firing on occasion,
killing the entire crew. An unbreakable one would be much safer to be
around.

So... another loophole around the second oath presents itself:

An Aes Sedai may not make a weapon, but improve a weapon that has been
made by some bellfounder is no problem, right?

[Chris McCrohan]

***@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>

Post by l***@gmail.com
An Aes Sedai may not make a weapon, but improve a weapon that has been
made by some bellfounder is no problem, right?

We already knew that. Power-wrought blades, remember? Aes Sedai can't
make swords, but they can do some voodoo to make them unbreakable.
Logically, the same applies to artillery.

[Paul Colquhoun]

On 16 Sep 2006 09:33:17 -0700, Chris McCrohan <***@eircom.net> wrote:
|
| ***@gmail.com wrote:
| <snip>
|> So... another loophole around the second oath presents itself:
|>
|> An Aes Sedai may not make a weapon, but improve a weapon that has been
|> made by some bellfounder is no problem, right?
|
| We already knew that. Power-wrought blades, remember? Aes Sedai can't
| make swords, but they can do some voodoo to make them unbreakable.
| Logically, the same applies to artillery.


Aren't all the power-wrought blades ancient heirlooms that date back to
before the 3 Oaths were instituted?

[Will Frank]

Post by Paul Colquhoun
| We already knew that. Power-wrought blades, remember? Aes Sedai can't
| make swords, but they can do some voodoo to make them unbreakable.
| Logically, the same applies to artillery.
Aren't all the power-wrought blades ancient heirlooms that date back to
before the 3 Oaths were instituted?

Yep. They're pretty much the reason that Oath exists. The One Power is used to
make the weapon completely.

The loophole we use here isn't the Power-wrought blades...it's probably the
catapults in the Two Rivers.

[l***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Frank
The loophole we use here isn't the Power-wrought blades...it's probably the
catapults in the Two Rivers.

Yes, except that the catapults were used against shadowspawn. That's
alowed anyway.

[Will Frank]

Post by l***@gmail.com

Post by Will Frank
The loophole we use here isn't the Power-wrought blades...it's probably the
catapults in the Two Rivers.

Yes, except that the catapults were used against shadowspawn. That's
alowed anyway.

1) As of now (with Mat's position as Prince of the Ravens, and about to be
promoted to whatever the Prince-Consort's title is) it's likely the next fight
will be against Shadowspawn.

2) It's a semantic question. A sword could be used against Shadowspawn too...so
if an Aes Sedai believed that a sword would only be used against Shadowspawn,
could she help forge it, making a new OP blade? I certainly doubt it...that
would undermine the Oath.

Actually, I suppose in the Two Rivers (after some checking) the Aes Sedai only
modified the rocks in the catapults; so whether they could help improve the
dragons is still unsure...

[David Israel]

Post by Will Frank

Post by l***@gmail.com

Post by Will Frank
The loophole we use here isn't the Power-wrought blades...it's probably the
catapults in the Two Rivers.

Yes, except that the catapults were used against shadowspawn. That's
alowed anyway.

1) As of now (with Mat's position as Prince of the Ravens, and about to be
promoted to whatever the Prince-Consort's title is) it's likely the next fight
will be against Shadowspawn.
2) It's a semantic question. A sword could be used against Shadowspawn too...so
if an Aes Sedai believed that a sword would only be used against Shadowspawn,
could she help forge it, making a new OP blade? I certainly doubt it...that
would undermine the Oath.
Actually, I suppose in the Two Rivers (after some checking) the Aes Sedai only
modified the rocks in the catapults; so whether they could help improve the
dragons is still unsure...

Books not being before me, I must ask - Who actually did the work in the
two rivers - Verin? Many seem to think that the 3 oaths don't entirely
hold for her ......

[Will Frank]

Post by David Israel
Books not being before me, I must ask - Who actually did the work in the
two rivers - Verin? Many seem to think that the 3 oaths don't entirely
hold for her ......

Verin I'm sure about; I think the other (I'm blanking on her name too) as well.

And we know Verin is bound by the First Oath for reasons outlined in the
FAQ...why not the Second as well?

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Will Frank

Post by David Israel
Books not being before me, I must ask - Who actually did the work in the
two rivers - Verin? Many seem to think that the 3 oaths don't entirely
hold for her ......

Verin I'm sure about; I think the other (I'm blanking on her name too) as well.

Alana.

Post by Will Frank
And we know Verin is bound by the First Oath for reasons outlined in the
FAQ...why not the Second as well?

There are four sisters and an Amyrlin who aren't (yet) bound by
the oaths.

scott

[Will Frank]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Will Frank
And we know Verin is bound by the First Oath for reasons outlined in the
FAQ...why not the Second as well?

There are four sisters and an Amyrlin who aren't (yet) bound by
the oaths.

Sure, but that's a different argument.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Will Frank

Post by David Israel
Books not being before me, I must ask - Who actually did the work in the
two rivers - Verin? Many seem to think that the 3 oaths don't entirely
hold for her ......

Verin I'm sure about; I think the other (I'm blanking on her name too) as well.

Alana.

^^^^^

OBPedant: Alanna

<snip to end>

[Christer Jacobsson]

Post by Pat O'Connell
[KOD technology discussion snipped]

Post by Legolas
Not only are you right, but given the damage (and precision) that can
be done with the OP, who needs a stupid cannon or tank? If the
world's surface was literally transformed during the breaking of the
world, it was most probably not due to explosives.

In the books, we're in the Third Age. Use of the OP as a weapon by the
Good Guys requires either an Ashaman (one on Rand's side), a former
damane, or a non-black Aes Sedai that hasn't taken the three oaths
(Wondergirls, etc.), and there aren't that many of them. There's still a
place for cannon or mortars.

Yes, and its *because* they are non-OP they are so useful. Channelers,
whether our Wondergirls(TM), Asha'mans, common AS/Windfinders/Knitting
Sisters/, the new Dreadlords, Myrdraal and Moridin can't detect that the
Good Side are going to use tube artillery and tactical rockets on them
(Aludra just MUST know how to create firework rockets: enlarge them and
you get the same weapon - the Congreve Rocket - the English used in
bombarding Copenhagen in the beginning of the 19th century in the
Napoleonic wars).

Also, mortars and rocket launchers can be concealed so that Channelers
can't get at them without exposing themselves. What I have understood is
that female Channelers must have a target in sight to channel at it but
male Channelers don't need to se their target to channel at it - see The
Extra Bit about Logain's invisible branch that caught Toveine.

Lastly, Elayne should research the exploding weave that cleared an area
with the force equivalent to a 1-10 kT nuke. We encountered it in TPoD.
Embodying it in a ter'angreal that can be fired from a mortar or be a
warhead on a tactical rocket would give the Good side a huge advantage
in the upcoming battles including TG.


Cul8er alligator!
gaea - feminist

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Chris McCrohan
Now, Aludra mentions that several horses would be required to move a
dragon. I'm guessing the horses would get pretty tired pretty quickly
if they were assigned to do that a lot.

Historically, cannon (which were only useful for attacking stationary
targets like cities or castles) were moved with teams of oxen (dozens of
them, for the really large siege guns). Slower, but more durable than
horses. Their speed is *why* you couldn't use them against a field army,
just against sitting ducks. Light field artillery appeared in the 1700s
that could be drawn by horses -- faster, but small caliber and not fast
for very long. No good against any kind of walls, but highly effective in
battles against field armies.

Ox-drawn carriages will be what most of the bulk trade across randland
already runs on, so it's not like it's a new technique.

I'm not so sure that steam tractors (which are a lot more than just an
engine -- in our world, Newcomen beam engines (1711) predated usable steam
tractors (let alone ones capable of going off-road, which you really do
need for military purposes, just on-road is not that useful) by over a
century and a half. It took longer than to go from water wheels to steam
engines. Going from there to military applications, where the thing being
a bit balky gets people killed, takes longer.

On the other hand, the writer's aphorism is that if you show a poker next
to a hearth in Act 1, it had better be used to kill someone by act 3 --
and the steam engines are way too up-played not to play a part in the next
book. It'll just be Yet More completely unrealistic accelerated industrial
revolution.


Jasper

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Chris McCrohan
Now, Aludra mentions that several horses would be required to move a
dragon. I'm guessing the horses would get pretty tired pretty quickly
if they were assigned to do that a lot.

Historically, cannon (which were only useful for attacking stationary
targets like cities or castles) were moved with teams of oxen (dozens of
them, for the really large siege guns). Slower, but more durable than
horses. Their speed is *why* you couldn't use them against a field army,
just against sitting ducks. Light field artillery appeared in the 1700s
that could be drawn by horses -- faster, but small caliber and not fast
for very long. No good against any kind of walls, but highly effective in
battles against field armies.
Ox-drawn carriages will be what most of the bulk trade across randland
already runs on, so it's not like it's a new technique.
I'm not so sure that steam tractors (which are a lot more than just an
engine -- in our world, Newcomen beam engines (1711) predated usable steam
tractors (let alone ones capable of going off-road, which you really do
need for military purposes, just on-road is not that useful) by over a
century and a half. It took longer than to go from water wheels to steam
engines. Going from there to military applications, where the thing being
a bit balky gets people killed, takes longer.
On the other hand, the writer's aphorism is that if you show a poker next
to a hearth in Act 1, it had better be used to kill someone by act 3 --
and the steam engines are way too up-played not to play a part in the next
book. It'll just be Yet More completely unrealistic accelerated industrial
revolution.

Just use the OP to move the cannon!

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Chris McCrohan
*Steam engines, which first appeared at the start of LOC or ACOS (I
forget which one), reach completion and are put into service.
*Mat and Aludra work out how to make cannons (which Aludra refers to as
'dragons').
Now, Aludra mentions that several horses would be required to move a
dragon. I'm guessing the horses would get pretty tired pretty quickly
if they were assigned to do that a lot.
Those steam engines, on the other hand, would be an excellent way to
pull dragons, and I foresee that they will be used thusly in the Last
Battle.
However...how long until someone comes up with the idea of putting
dragons on the top of steam engines, thus creating steam powered tanks?
The Shadow would never expect that! (Unless, of course, some Darkfriend
blabs to a Foresaken, but still.)

So Rand and company will create Gateways for the steam powered tanks to
roll through, assuming those devices can be developed in time.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Chris McCrohan
*Steam engines, which first appeared at the start of LOC or ACOS (I
forget which one), reach completion and are put into service.

On which page?