Discussion:
FAQ: Proposed New Topics - KoD Spoilers
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N***@gmail.com
2005-10-29 16:56:55 UTC
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FAQABLES

Spoiler Space

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1. A table showing all the relevent groups: Black Ajah Hunters,
Ferrets, Known Black Ajah, Tarna's group of Reds, Ajah Heads. This type
of reference on one page would be most valuable.

2. White Tower Spying probably deserves its own topic too. Alviarin
ordered the black ajah to spy on Doseine and Yukiri, Elaida ordered the
Ajah's (which probably amounts to the ajah heads) to spy on the
ferrets, while the black ajah is spying on the ajah heads. Who knows
what, is now difficult to remember. For instance Beonin will have
contacted all the ferrets with information that Elaida knows about
them, which means the Hunters know this. Doseine's visit to Egwene is
indicative of knowing about Beonin sending orders for her. Elaida knows
about the ferrets but thinks they are not aware of this, but Tarna (and
therefore her group) suspects they are aware of this and probably wants
to know how.

3. Where has Rand sent Corele and her Warder Damer Flinn, one of the
few Asha'man he trusts. The man was completely absent from KoD as far
as I could tell.

4. The probable truce between Rand and Tuon. The fact that a ship from
Seanchan came with word that a chaneler had destroyed the entire court,
and the fact that the Sul'dam with the fake Tuon will have returned to
report that Semirhage has been masquerading as Tuons truth speaker.
Tuon should be able to put 2+2 together and arrive at the conclusion
that Semirhage essentially destroyed the Seanchan Empire on the
Seanchan mainland, and that Rand now has her a prisoner. How much would
she give up for some revenge?

5. The eleven chairs at the forskaen meeting. 1. Moridin. 2. Cyndane.
3. Moghedien. 4. Aran'gar. 5. Greandal. 6. Semirhage. 7. Damendred. 8.
Messana. 9. Sammeal (if they thought him alive to give orders he is
still chosen and deserves a chair if he bothers to show up). 10.
(unknown) 11. (unknown). The list of obvious candidates are: 1.
Osan'gar recycled 2. Mazrim Taim newly raised 3. Shaidar Haran. How do
the # of chairs compare to the last chosen coffee hour?

6. Where has Verin gone? What information in the previous few days did
she have the possibility of learning to make her think she should go
then as opposed to later to do something?

7. As Elayne will loose the windfinders now that she has the throne,
how will she hold the six black ajah still alive prisoner? Are the Kin
outside of the leadership circle strong enough (in terms of of
willpower)? Or will she send them to the rebel Aes Sedai main camp to
deal with? Also, a breakdown of the names of the captured black ajah,
would be useful. Are any of the ones in question knowledgeable enough
about the plans for Mazrim Taim that they might give away his true
identity/associations to Elayne?

8. What is Mazrim Taim planning? Do we have any clues? He has added
nearly 50 Asha'man in 10 days to his side most newly arrived as Logain
tells Rand. Are they recruiting from Darkfriends now, or using a circle
of 13 mydraal? Taim gives some away to Tarna when he had no need. Or
has he decided to creatively misinterpret Rands order giving Tarna 6
and the rebel Aes Sedai 41? What is the meaning of the black and red
floor tiles? Is he just Moridin's flunky or something more? And just to
revive the good old taimendred days, is there any possibility that Taim
_is_ Moridin? Seriously, Taim seems like the kind of guy thats too
proud to use someones elses colors.

JRS
Davian
2005-10-29 18:40:48 UTC
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Post by N***@gmail.com
FAQABLES
Spoiler Space
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4. The probable truce between Rand and Tuon. The fact that a ship from
Seanchan came with word that a chaneler had destroyed the entire court,
and the fact that the Sul'dam with the fake Tuon will have returned to
report that Semirhage has been masquerading as Tuons truth speaker.
Tuon should be able to put 2+2 together and arrive at the conclusion
that Semirhage essentially destroyed the Seanchan Empire on the
Seanchan mainland, and that Rand now has her a prisoner. How much would
she give up for some revenge?
Will Tuon come to the conclusion that Semirhage killed the emperess? I don't
think so.

I think she will come to the conclusion that her family was murdered by
channelers, and that the Aes Sedai, with this Travelling ability that took
thier whole army from Murrandy to Tar Valon, must have done it. Tuon's
response will be to order a retaliatory raid on the White Tower, flying damane
in for an assault. Possibly killing Elaida, and definitely capturing
(rescuing) Egwene. (1) I think it's then that the sul'dam will finally make
it back to Ebou Dar, bearing thier tale of Anath admitting to be Semirhage.

I haven't quite worked out yet how Gawyn will rescue Egwene from the Seanchan,
but I think that might be the next step after that. Unless Jordan finds some
way to work Gawyn's choice in before the Seanchan attack. That's possible, I
suppose. If he does that, then perhaps Tuon will give Egwene to Rand to seal
thier treaty, or maybe buy a bit of revenge on Semirhage.



(1) Going towards the more loony of my theories, I predict that Egwene's
table service on Elaida will go "horribly wrong," and that Elaida will order
her stilled and/or executed. This will fracture her already precarious
support within the Tower while strengthening Egwene's, due to the excessive
overreaction and cruelty against someone who has gained popular support during
her captivity. Right as the stilling is about to happen is when the Seanchan
attack will land.
--
Jeff

Davian / Dearic
Jasper Janssen
2005-10-30 12:13:39 UTC
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Post by Davian
Post by N***@gmail.com
FAQABLES
Spoiler Space
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(1) Going towards the more loony of my theories, I predict that Egwene's
table service on Elaida will go "horribly wrong," and that Elaida will order
her stilled and/or executed. This will fracture her already precarious
support within the Tower while strengthening Egwene's, due to the excessive
overreaction and cruelty against someone who has gained popular support during
her captivity. Right as the stilling is about to happen is when the Seanchan
attack will land.
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.

Jasper
Ash
2005-10-31 00:56:44 UTC
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Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Davian
Post by N***@gmail.com
FAQABLES
Spoiler Space
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(1) Going towards the more loony of my theories, I predict that Egwene's
table service on Elaida will go "horribly wrong," and that Elaida will order
her stilled and/or executed. This will fracture her already precarious
support within the Tower while strengthening Egwene's, due to the excessive
overreaction and cruelty against someone who has gained popular support during
her captivity. Right as the stilling is about to happen is when the Seanchan
attack will land.
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Jasper Janssen
2005-10-31 13:31:20 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:56:44 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Davian
Post by N***@gmail.com
FAQABLES
Spoiler Space
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(1) Going towards the more loony of my theories, I predict that Egwene's
table service on Elaida will go "horribly wrong," and that Elaida will order
her stilled and/or executed. This will fracture her already precarious
support within the Tower while strengthening Egwene's, due to the excessive
overreaction and cruelty against someone who has gained popular support during
her captivity. Right as the stilling is about to happen is when the Seanchan
attack will land.
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.

Jasper
Ash
2005-10-31 13:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:56:44 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Davian
Post by N***@gmail.com
FAQABLES
Spoiler Space
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(1) Going towards the more loony of my theories, I predict that Egwene's
table service on Elaida will go "horribly wrong," and that Elaida will order
her stilled and/or executed. This will fracture her already precarious
support within the Tower while strengthening Egwene's, due to the excessive
overreaction and cruelty against someone who has gained popular support during
her captivity. Right as the stilling is about to happen is when the Seanchan
attack will land.
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
Frank van Schie
2005-10-31 18:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Ash
(since stilling is always done shielded, not forkrooted)
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the Power
as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other Aes Sedai.
Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean lots of dead Aes
Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self defense, too.

So it's either forkroot or shielding.

Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a
tradition going back before the Breaking. QED.
--
Frank
Ash
2005-10-31 21:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Ash
(since stilling is always done shielded, not forkrooted)
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the Power
as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other Aes Sedai.
Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean lots of dead Aes
Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self defense, too.
So? Aes Sedai don't control the way the world works. Just because they
wold rather a person is shielded before they are stilled does not mean
this is possible
And as for if anyone could be killed, this is highly unlikely, It would
not be in the last defence of her life
Post by Frank van Schie
So it's either forkroot or shielding.
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a
tradition going back before the Breaking. QED.
Not at all.
Until we see differently, it is just a theory
Frank van Schie
2005-10-31 21:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Ash wrote:
[shielding or forkrooting women when stilling]
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the
Power as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other Aes
Sedai. Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean lots of
dead Aes Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self defense, too.
So? Aes Sedai don't control the way the world works. Just because they
wold rather a person is shielded before they are stilled does not mean
this is possible
Uhm, what the fuck? Of course it is possible, as they have the entire
Tower ready to form circles of thirteen and shield the harlot if need be.
Post by Ash
And as for if anyone could be killed, this is highly unlikely, It would
not be in the last defence of her life
Most of those who are stilled die quickly thereafter. It's a causal
link. So it could be said it is.
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
So it's either forkroot or shielding.
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a
tradition going back before the Breaking. QED.
Not at all.
Until we see differently, it is just a theory
Silly if not done.

I can think of a reason why they would. Let me then ask you, why would
they not?
--
Frank
Karan Juneja
2005-11-01 01:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
[shielding or forkrooting women when stilling]
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the
Power as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other
Aes Sedai. Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean lots
of dead Aes Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self
defense, too.
So? Aes Sedai don't control the way the world works. Just because they
wold rather a person is shielded before they are stilled does not mean
this is possible
Uhm, what the fuck? Of course it is possible, as they have the entire
Tower ready to form circles of thirteen and shield the harlot if need be.
I think Ash missed the point about this being stilling _in_ the Tower,
and s/he's referring to it in general terms of a channeler being stilled.

We've seen that people don't need to be shielded before being stilled
out in The World, but in the Tower it's most likely that they would be,
as Frank is saying.
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Ash
And as for if anyone could be killed, this is highly unlikely, It
would not be in the last defence of her life
Most of those who are stilled die quickly thereafter. It's a causal
link. So it could be said it is.
Not only that, if they think that "Channelling is my life!", they'd be
able to work around it. Not that they'd fight anyway with the whole
freakin' Tower of AS around them.
--
KJ
Ash
2005-11-01 10:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karan Juneja
Post by Frank van Schie
[shielding or forkrooting women when stilling]
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the
Power as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other
Aes Sedai. Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean
lots of dead Aes Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self
defense, too.
So? Aes Sedai don't control the way the world works. Just because
they wold rather a person is shielded before they are stilled does
not mean this is possible
Uhm, what the fuck? Of course it is possible, as they have the entire
Tower ready to form circles of thirteen and shield the harlot if need be.
I think Ash missed the point about this being stilling _in_ the Tower,
and s/he's referring to it in general terms of a channeler being stilled.
We've seen that people don't need to be shielded before being stilled
out in The World, but in the Tower it's most likely that they would be,
as Frank is saying.
Well, if I ever met RJ, this is probably the questin I would ask. Of
course, if people can be stilled when holding the power, this is how it
would be done, but that doens't mean it is possible, it depends on the
mechanics of stilling. Another point in favour is the rough treatment
Reds give out to men they suspect can channel (such as Elyas). If they
were able to still easily, they wouldn't need this, they could just have
performed the stilling weave on him. If he couldn't channel, it wouldn't
harm him, if he could, he was in their care for the effects. It would
even go back to the early days, when the Tower was formed and the Reds
were looking for men who could channel. Why not just do the weave on
all men they met? Tradition today dictates that a person be brought to
the Tower, so they may want to be sure, but in the early days, I don't
see this as being the case.
Karan Juneja
2005-11-01 14:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Karan Juneja
I think Ash missed the point about this being stilling _in_ the Tower,
and s/he's referring to it in general terms of a channeler being stilled.
We've seen that people don't need to be shielded before being stilled
out in The World, but in the Tower it's most likely that they would
be, as Frank is saying.
Well, if I ever met RJ, this is probably the questin I would ask. Of
course, if people can be stilled when holding the power, this is how it
would be done, but that doens't mean it is possible, it depends on the
mechanics of stilling.
AOLers called it 'severing'. I'd say the analogy is something like
mentioned in tEotW, where Rand sees a 'cable' going from Ishy off into
the ether, and "stilling" would be cutting it. Or maybe a hose -
shielding is knotting the hose, stilling is snipping it.

See also Egwene's stilling and shielding of Amico & Joiya in tDR for a
small reference on the mechanics of stilling.
Post by Ash
Another point in favour is the rough treatment
Reds give out to men they suspect can channel (such as Elyas). If they
were able to still easily, they wouldn't need this, they could just have
performed the stilling weave on him. If he couldn't channel, it wouldn't
harm him, if he could, he was in their care for the effects. It would
even go back to the early days, when the Tower was formed and the Reds
were looking for men who could channel. Why not just do the weave on
all men they met? Tradition today dictates that a person be brought to
the Tower, so they may want to be sure, but in the early days, I don't
see this as being the case.
Due Process? Not wanting to run razor-edged spirit weaves on every male
in sight? Why would you do the stilling weave on every man you met if
only 1% to 2% of people even have the ability to do so? What if you
accidently hit one of your fellow Red Crazy Ladies? Big oops on that one.

'Tradition' forms from what happened in the early days, in case you
didn't notice. So in the early days, they wanted to be sure. Maybe they
were more compassionate then?
--
KJ
D. Todd Caslick
2005-11-01 14:59:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Karan Juneja
Post by Frank van Schie
[shielding or forkrooting women when stilling]
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the
Power as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other
Aes Sedai. Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean
lots of dead Aes Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self
defense, too.
So? Aes Sedai don't control the way the world works. Just because
they wold rather a person is shielded before they are stilled does
not mean this is possible
Uhm, what the fuck? Of course it is possible, as they have the entire
Tower ready to form circles of thirteen and shield the harlot if need be.
I think Ash missed the point about this being stilling _in_ the Tower,
and s/he's referring to it in general terms of a channeler being stilled.
We've seen that people don't need to be shielded before being stilled
out in The World, but in the Tower it's most likely that they would be,
as Frank is saying.
Well, if I ever met RJ, this is probably the questin I would ask. Of
course, if people can be stilled when holding the power, this is how it
would be done, but that doens't mean it is possible, it depends on the
mechanics of stilling. Another point in favour is the rough treatment
Reds give out to men they suspect can channel (such as Elyas). If they
were able to still easily, they wouldn't need this, they could just have
performed the stilling weave on him. If he couldn't channel, it wouldn't
harm him, if he could, he was in their care for the effects. It would
even go back to the early days, when the Tower was formed and the Reds
were looking for men who could channel. Why not just do the weave on
all men they met? Tradition today dictates that a person be brought to
the Tower, so they may want to be sure, but in the early days, I don't
see this as being the case.
Just to point out, it is possible to sever someone if they are holding
the source. Case and point is Dumai's Wells, where Rand severs three
Aes Sedai who were almost surely holding the source during the fight. I
think his strength and the type of weave he used came into play, but it
is possible.



Todd
Ash
2005-11-01 10:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
[shielding or forkrooting women when stilling]
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the
Power as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other
Aes Sedai. Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean lots
of dead Aes Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self
defense, too.
So? Aes Sedai don't control the way the world works. Just because they
wold rather a person is shielded before they are stilled does not mean
this is possible
Uhm, what the fuck? Of course it is possible, as they have the entire
Tower ready to form circles of thirteen and shield the harlot if need be.
Post by Ash
And as for if anyone could be killed, this is highly unlikely, It
would not be in the last defence of her life
Most of those who are stilled die quickly thereafter. It's a causal
link. So it could be said it is.
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
So it's either forkroot or shielding.
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a
tradition going back before the Breaking. QED.
Not at all.
Until we see differently, it is just a theory
Silly if not done.
I can think of a reason why they would. Let me then ask you, why would
they not?
It wouldn't be a choice. It may be that a person can only be stilled if
they are holding the source.
I see shielding as putting something in between a person and the source,
so they cannot reach it. Stilling would be cutting the connection to the
source. If they are not channeling, this connection is internal and
cannot be reached. If they are holding the source, it is possible to
cut. One argument for this is that stilling was not healed before
Nynaeve. If they were reaching into people and cutting, the "sense of
something cut" would have been well known. Without 5 power healing, the
modern AS might not have been able to do it (though in the Age of
Legends should have been able to if they were aware of this), but the
impressin I got is that they didn't even know of this cutting before
Nynaeve discovered it
Jasper Janssen
2005-11-01 13:36:29 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:28:35 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
It wouldn't be a choice. It may be that a person can only be stilled if
they are holding the source.
That'd be very weird, since you can't force someone to hold the source.


Jasper
Katherine Inskip
2005-11-01 14:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:28:35 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
It wouldn't be a choice. It may be that a person can only be stilled if
they are holding the source.
That'd be very weird, since you can't force someone to hold the source.
*cough* a'dam *cough*

Added to that, are we entirely sure about how the black ajah's
involuntary rings work? We know someone can be forced into a circle,
but not whether this requires them to be embracing the source
initially or not.

Still, neither of these options are relevant in the case in point, but
I felt pedantic enough to mention them.
--
Katherine I.
Jasper Janssen
2005-11-01 21:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katherine Inskip
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:28:35 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
It wouldn't be a choice. It may be that a person can only be stilled if
they are holding the source.
That'd be very weird, since you can't force someone to hold the source.
*cough* a'dam *cough*
Which were, again, entirely unknown until a few years before now.
Post by Katherine Inskip
Added to that, are we entirely sure about how the black ajah's
involuntary rings work? We know someone can be forced into a circle,
but not whether this requires them to be embracing the source
initially or not.
That's a good question, and one which I decided in advance to ignore
studiously.


Jasper
Jamie Bowden
2005-11-08 20:42:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Katherine Inskip
*cough* a'dam *cough*
Which were, again, entirely unknown until a few years before now.
Post by Katherine Inskip
Added to that, are we entirely sure about how the black ajah's
involuntary rings work? We know someone can be forced into a circle,
but not whether this requires them to be embracing the source initially
or not.
That's a good question, and one which I decided in advance to ignore
studiously.
The Black Ajah don't make involuntary rings. They use thirteen channelers
and thriteen mydraal to do a forced conversion (which I expect is
something akin to how the male forsaken are tied to the DO).

Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <***@alaric.org.uk>
Ash
2005-11-08 22:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie Bowden
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Katherine Inskip
*cough* a'dam *cough*
Which were, again, entirely unknown until a few years before now.
Post by Katherine Inskip
Added to that, are we entirely sure about how the black ajah's
involuntary rings work? We know someone can be forced into a circle,
but not whether this requires them to be embracing the source initially
or not.
That's a good question, and one which I decided in advance to ignore
studiously.
The Black Ajah don't make involuntary rings. They use thirteen channelers
and thriteen mydraal to do a forced conversion (which I expect is
something akin to how the male forsaken are tied to the DO).
The only involuntary rings I am aware of are the Adam
dwn
2005-11-08 23:12:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie Bowden
The Black Ajah don't make involuntary rings. They use thirteen channelers
and thriteen mydraal to do a forced conversion (which I expect is
something akin to how the male forsaken are tied to the DO).
Jamie Bowden
--
The BA hunters have discovered that the BA puts a sister "to the
question" by forcing them into a link and then using that link to
induce pain (mentioned in the KOD prologue, I believe). It sounds like
the BA knows a weave that works something like an a'dam.

It's possible that the forcing only involves coercion, but I think the
implication is otherwise.

-- dwn
Davian
2005-11-09 01:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie Bowden
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Katherine Inskip
Added to that, are we entirely sure about how the black ajah's
involuntary rings work? We know someone can be forced into a circle,
but not whether this requires them to be embracing the source initially
or not.
That's a good question, and one which I decided in advance to ignore
studiously.
The Black Ajah don't make involuntary rings. They use thirteen channelers
and thriteen mydraal to do a forced conversion (which I expect is
something akin to how the male forsaken are tied to the DO).
Actually KoD reveals that they do. They use it as a form of punishment,
involuntary rings to cause pain.
--
Jeff

Davian / Dearic
Christer Jacobsson
2005-11-10 07:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie Bowden
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Katherine Inskip
*cough* a'dam *cough*
Which were, again, entirely unknown until a few years before now.
Post by Katherine Inskip
Added to that, are we entirely sure about how the black ajah's
involuntary rings work? We know someone can be forced into a circle,
but not whether this requires them to be embracing the source initially
or not.
That's a good question, and one which I decided in advance to ignore
studiously.
The Black Ajah don't make involuntary rings. They use thirteen channelers
and thriteen mydraal to do a forced conversion (which I expect is
something akin to how the male forsaken are tied to the DO).
In wiew of RJ's penchant for balance, wouldn't it be nice if there
existed a similar procedure for converting a channeling Darkfriend
(female or male) to the Light? Obviously the Good Side(tm?) can't use
13 BA + 13 Myrdraal but must use 13 Good Channelers (of either sex) +
13 [something else] instead. Now what could this [something else] be?
Whitecloaks? Confirmed Lightfriends? Ogiers (have we seem any Ogier
DF's?)?

Just my 2x10**(-2) SEK worth of theory. :-)
--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 9th Anniversary & 25th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se
Wenchmagnet
2005-11-10 10:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christer Jacobsson
In wiew of RJ's penchant for balance, wouldn't it be nice if there
existed a similar procedure for converting a channeling Darkfriend
(female or male) to the Light? Obviously the Good Side(tm?) can't use
13 BA + 13 Myrdraal but must use 13 Good Channelers (of either sex) +
13 [something else] instead. Now what could this [something else] be?
Whitecloaks? Confirmed Lightfriends? Ogiers (have we seem any Ogier
DF's?)?
The proceedure exists... Rand used it on Asmodean! We have yet to see a
female channeler skimming with the forsaken so it might be possible for
female forsaken/dark friends too.
Michelle J. Haines
2005-11-10 10:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wenchmagnet
The proceedure exists... Rand used it on Asmodean! We have yet to see a
female channeler skimming with the forsaken so it might be possible for
female forsaken/dark friends too.
Well, no, not really. What Rand did was to cut Asmodean off from the
Dark One, not hook him up to the Light. Asmo remained the man he always
was, and his loyalties didn't change. And remember that his first
loyalty was to himself.

Michelle
Flutist
Erik Wikström
2005-11-10 20:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle J. Haines
Post by Wenchmagnet
The proceedure exists... Rand used it on Asmodean! We have yet to see a
female channeler skimming with the forsaken so it might be possible for
female forsaken/dark friends too.
Well, no, not really. What Rand did was to cut Asmodean off from the
Dark One, not hook him up to the Light. Asmo remained the man he always
was, and his loyalties didn't change. And remember that his first
loyalty was to himself.
I've always wondered what happens to one who undergo the 13+13 treatment
and have never imagined that they get a full personality makeover.
Rather I've always thought that they somehow are forced to follow the DO
by somehow, just can't figure out how since a true lightfriend would
prefer to die than join the shadow. At least those who the DFs think are
worth the trouble of the treatment.

Erik Wikström
--
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure
out how to use my telephone" -- Bjarne Stroustrup
dwn
2005-11-10 22:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Wikström
I've always wondered what happens to one who undergo the 13+13 treatment
and have never imagined that they get a full personality makeover.
Rather I've always thought that they somehow are forced to follow the DO
by somehow, just can't figure out how since a true lightfriend would
prefer to die than join the shadow. At least those who the DFs think are
worth the trouble of the treatment.
Erik Wikström
--
There was a Question of the Week on this, I think. It's supposed to
enhance the darker aspects of one's personality while suppressing the
better parts. After someone has been turned, the he wouldn't even want
to be changed back. I don't think it was ever mentioned that it
couldn't be reversed somehow, though.

-- dwn
David Chapman
2005-11-11 10:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by dwn
Post by Erik Wikström
I've always wondered what happens to one who undergo the 13+13 treatment
and have never imagined that they get a full personality makeover.
Rather I've always thought that they somehow are forced to follow the DO
by somehow, just can't figure out how since a true lightfriend would
prefer to die than join the shadow. At least those who the DFs think are
worth the trouble of the treatment.
There was a Question of the Week on this, I think. It's supposed to
enhance the darker aspects of one's personality while suppressing the
better parts. After someone has been turned, the he wouldn't even want
to be changed back. I don't think it was ever mentioned that it
couldn't be reversed somehow, though.
All you need are thirteen channellers and thirteen Ogier?

<g,d&r>
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Davian
2005-11-12 04:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by dwn
There was a Question of the Week on this, I think. It's supposed to
enhance the darker aspects of one's personality while suppressing the
better parts. After someone has been turned, the he wouldn't even want
to be changed back. I don't think it was ever mentioned that it
couldn't be reversed somehow, though.
All you need are thirteen channellers and thirteen Ogier?
<g,d&r>
Or, perhaps, on an only slightly more serious note... maybe thirteen Nym to
force a darkfriend to willingly serve the light.
--
Jeff

Davian / Dearic
Erik Wikström
2005-11-12 11:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davian
Post by David Chapman
Post by dwn
There was a Question of the Week on this, I think. It's supposed to
enhance the darker aspects of one's personality while suppressing the
better parts. After someone has been turned, the he wouldn't even want
to be changed back. I don't think it was ever mentioned that it
couldn't be reversed somehow, though.
All you need are thirteen channellers and thirteen Ogier?
<g,d&r>
Or, perhaps, on an only slightly more serious note... maybe thirteen Nym to
force a darkfriend to willingly serve the light.
Yes, that sounds exactly like the light, to force someone. :-)

Erik Wikström
--
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure
out how to use my telephone" -- Bjarne Stroustrup
Davian
2005-11-12 11:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Davian
Post by David Chapman
Post by dwn
There was a Question of the Week on this, I think. It's supposed to
enhance the darker aspects of one's personality while suppressing the
better parts. After someone has been turned, the he wouldn't even want
to be changed back. I don't think it was ever mentioned that it
couldn't be reversed somehow, though.
All you need are thirteen channellers and thirteen Ogier?
<g,d&r>
Or, perhaps, on an only slightly more serious note... maybe thirteen Nym to
force a darkfriend to willingly serve the light.
Yes, that sounds exactly like the light, to force someone. :-)
You say that sarcastically, but if you've been reading the series, surely you
remember how justice was enforced in the Age of Legends. Binders (Oath
Rods) were used to force evil channelers to obey the law. So, yeah... they
did just that.
--
Jeff

Davian / Dearic
Jim Phillips
2005-11-14 14:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by dwn
I've always wondered what happens to one who undergo the 13+13 treatme=
nt
Post by David Chapman
Post by dwn
and have never imagined that they get a full personality makeover.
Rather I've always thought that they somehow are forced to follow the =
DO
Post by David Chapman
Post by dwn
by somehow, just can't figure out how since a true lightfriend would
prefer to die than join the shadow. At least those who the DFs think a=
re
Post by David Chapman
Post by dwn
worth the trouble of the treatment.
=20
Post by dwn
There was a Question of the Week on this, I think. It's supposed to
enhance the darker aspects of one's personality while suppressing the
better parts. After someone has been turned, the he wouldn't even want
to be changed back. I don't think it was ever mentioned that it
couldn't be reversed somehow, though.
=20
All you need are thirteen channellers and thirteen Ogier?
=09Altering someone's personality could count as a form of insanity, so
maybe Nynaeve will discover a way to Heal it.

--=20
Jim Phillips, jay pee aitch eye el el eye pee at bee see pee ell dot net
"I would bring up Ann Coulter's comment about blowing up the New York
Times...there's a lot of hateful, violent rhetoric that spews from the
Right. The Left is snide and sarcastic, the Right is dangerous and
violent." -- Dan Savage
Jamie Bowden
2005-11-10 21:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Jamie Bowden
The Black Ajah don't make involuntary rings. They use thirteen
channelers and thriteen mydraal to do a forced conversion (which I
expect is something akin to how the male forsaken are tied to the DO).
Someone else pointed out in another branch of this thread that the BA do
know how to force an involuntary link to cause pain. I'm wondering if
that's knew in light of seeing A'dam. If not, then how do we rectify it
against Semirhage's internal thoughts (while giving Cabriana's Warder the
ultimate pleasure trip) about involuntary rings being one of those
impossible things these 'savages' had figured out recently?
Post by Christer Jacobsson
In wiew of RJ's penchant for balance, wouldn't it be nice if there
existed a similar procedure for converting a channeling Darkfriend
(female or male) to the Light? Obviously the Good Side(tm?) can't use 13
BA + 13 Myrdraal but must use 13 Good Channelers (of either sex) + 13
[something else] instead. Now what could this [something else] be?
Whitecloaks? Confirmed Lightfriends? Ogiers (have we seem any Ogier
DF's?)?
The Light doesn't compel people to follow. Down that path lies Aridhhol.

Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <***@alaric.org.uk>
Christer Jacobsson
2005-11-14 08:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie Bowden
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Jamie Bowden
The Black Ajah don't make involuntary rings. They use thirteen
channelers and thriteen mydraal to do a forced conversion (which I
expect is something akin to how the male forsaken are tied to the DO).
Someone else pointed out in another branch of this thread that the BA do
know how to force an involuntary link to cause pain. I'm wondering if
that's knew in light of seeing A'dam. If not, then how do we rectify it
against Semirhage's internal thoughts (while giving Cabriana's Warder the
ultimate pleasure trip) about involuntary rings being one of those
impossible things these 'savages' had figured out recently?
Post by Christer Jacobsson
In wiew of RJ's penchant for balance, wouldn't it be nice if there
existed a similar procedure for converting a channeling Darkfriend
(female or male) to the Light? Obviously the Good Side(tm?) can't use 13
BA + 13 Myrdraal but must use 13 Good Channelers (of either sex) + 13
[something else] instead. Now what could this [something else] be?
Whitecloaks? Confirmed Lightfriends? Ogiers (have we seem any Ogier
DF's?)?
The Light doesn't compel people to follow. Down that path lies Aridhhol.
Don't they? How about the BA Hunters when they forced a DF AS to
forswear her trinity of oaths to the BA and re-swearing the Three
Oaths *plus* an Oath of Obedience to them?

Btw, a similar incident shew us how the unbreakability of an Oath
sworn on the Rod works. When an Oath is sworn on the Rod, a
sympathetic block is set up within the swearer's nervous system. So
long as she don't try to break an Oath, nothing happens, but if she
tries to break an Oath, there will be a merry hell indeed. The BA
Hunters made Zerah (TPOD, ch. The Extra Bit, p.505-6) swear an Oath
of obedience to them and then *ordered* her to tell a lie. BAM! - the
S-block kicked in and Zerah went into a full-blown grand mal with
the addition of respiratory arrest. Pevara had to countermand her
previous order of lying to stop Zera's epileptic fit, otherwise she
would have died then and there.

Just off the bat - can RJ have gotten this idea of the functioning of
the Oath Rod from the S-block described in Bester's novel "Tiger!
Tiger!" ?


--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 9th Anniversary & 25th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se
Chunkawakan
Jamie Bowden
2005-11-14 17:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Jamie Bowden
Post by Christer Jacobsson
In wiew of RJ's penchant for balance, wouldn't it be nice if there
existed a similar procedure for converting a channeling Darkfriend
(female or male) to the Light? Obviously the Good Side(tm?) can't
use 13 BA + 13 Myrdraal but must use 13 Good Channelers (of either
sex) + 13 [something else] instead. Now what could this [something
else] be? Whitecloaks? Confirmed Lightfriends? Ogiers (have we seem
any Ogier DF's?)?
The Light doesn't compel people to follow. Down that path lies Aridhhol.
Don't they? How about the BA Hunters when they forced a DF AS to
forswear her trinity of oaths to the BA and re-swearing the Three Oaths
*plus* an Oath of Obedience to them?
The Aes Sedai are not the Light, no matter their hubris. Even Rand
doesn't claim to be the Light made flesh. He was rather clear that Masema
was to be brought to heel on this as well. The LIght has no provision for
forcing a person to be anything other than what they are.
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Btw, a similar incident shew us how the unbreakability of an Oath sworn
on the Rod works. When an Oath is sworn on the Rod, a sympathetic block
is set up within the swearer's nervous system. So long as she don't try
to break an Oath, nothing happens, but if she tries to break an Oath,
there will be a merry hell indeed. The BA Hunters made Zerah (TPOD, ch.
The Extra Bit, p.505-6) swear an Oath of obedience to them and then
*ordered* her to tell a lie. BAM! - the S-block kicked in and Zerah went
into a full-blown grand mal with the addition of respiratory arrest.
Pevara had to countermand her previous order of lying to stop Zera's
epileptic fit, otherwise she would have died then and there.
They didn't force Zera to tell a lie intentionally. The Red sister
brought forth the paradox by telling her to renounce the claim that the
Reds were behind Logain. Zera was sworn to obey her, but at the same time
was sworn not to lie, and she believes what she said about the Reds. She
was forced in a logical loop where she couldn't obey either directive
without violating the other. Shit happens. The Red sister withdrew the
order.

Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <***@alaric.org.uk>
David Chapman
2005-11-01 17:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:28:35 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
It wouldn't be a choice. It may be that a person can only be stilled if
they are holding the source.
That'd be very weird, since you can't force someone to hold the source.
And people who get burned out - which when you get down to it is being
severed while holding the source - often die in the process.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Aaron
2005-11-01 16:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
It wouldn't be a choice. It may be that a person can only be stilled if
they are holding the source.
I see shielding as putting something in between a person and the source,
so they cannot reach it. Stilling would be cutting the connection to the
source. If they are not channeling, this connection is internal and
cannot be reached. If they are holding the source, it is possible to
cut. One argument for this is that stilling was not healed before
Nynaeve. If they were reaching into people and cutting, the "sense of
something cut" would have been well known. Without 5 power healing, the
modern AS might not have been able to do it (though in the Age of
Legends should have been able to if they were aware of this), but the
impressin I got is that they didn't even know of this cutting before
Nynaeve discovered it
No channeler is going to embrace the source willingly for the purposes
of being stilled, if they must do so to be stilled at all. So, what,
they torture them into embracing the source so that they can still
them? I don't see someone like Logain giving in to that, knowing that
after he embraces the source, he will be stilled. No, I don't think
this can be the case at all.

-Aaron
Brinner
2005-11-03 16:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
[shielding or forkrooting women when stilling]
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the
Power as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other
Aes Sedai. Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean lots
of dead Aes Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self
defense, too.
So? Aes Sedai don't control the way the world works. Just because they
wold rather a person is shielded before they are stilled does not mean
this is possible
Uhm, what the fuck? Of course it is possible, as they have the entire
Tower ready to form circles of thirteen and shield the harlot if need be.
Post by Ash
And as for if anyone could be killed, this is highly unlikely, It
would not be in the last defence of her life
Most of those who are stilled die quickly thereafter. It's a causal
link. So it could be said it is.
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
So it's either forkroot or shielding.
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a
tradition going back before the Breaking. QED.
Not at all.
Until we see differently, it is just a theory
Silly if not done.
I can think of a reason why they would. Let me then ask you, why would
they not?
It wouldn't be a choice. It may be that a person can only be stilled if
they are holding the source.
I see shielding as putting something in between a person and the source,
so they cannot reach it. Stilling would be cutting the connection to the
source. If they are not channeling, this connection is internal and
cannot be reached. If they are holding the source, it is possible to
cut. One argument for this is that stilling was not healed before
Nynaeve. If they were reaching into people and cutting, the "sense of
something cut" would have been well known. Without 5 power healing, the
modern AS might not have been able to do it (though in the Age of
Legends should have been able to if they were aware of this), but the
impressin I got is that they didn't even know of this cutting before
Nynaeve discovered it
So you think they let Logain channel in the White Tower before they
gentled him? No, me either. Its never been stated straight out but its
a fairly easy assumption to make that severing works whether or not the
person is actually channeling or holding saidar/saidin. Be sensible.

Brinner
Tim Bruening
2010-04-01 03:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
[shielding or forkrooting women when stilling]
Post by Ash
Post by Frank van Schie
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the
Power as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other Aes
Sedai. Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean lots of
dead Aes Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self defense, too.
So? Aes Sedai don't control the way the world works. Just because they
wold rather a person is shielded before they are stilled does not mean
this is possible
Uhm, what the fuck? Of course it is possible, as they have the entire
Tower ready to form circles of thirteen and shield the harlot if need be.
Post by Ash
And as for if anyone could be killed, this is highly unlikely, It would
not be in the last defence of her life
Most of those who are stilled die quickly thereafter. It's a causal
link. So it could be said it is.
But it's not an instant, "last extreme" threat to her life, so the 3rd Oath
should still be in effect.

Tim Bruening
2010-04-01 03:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Ash
(since stilling is always done shielded, not forkrooted)
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
What, you think they're allowed to channel? Aes Sedai can use the Power
as a weapon if they feel threatened, even if it's from other Aes Sedai.
Leaving a woman loose just before stilling would mean lots of dead Aes
Sedai and warders, and solely in justifiable self defense, too.
The 3rd Oath says that an AS can only use the OP as a weapon against
Shadowsprawn or in defense of her life, that of her Warder, or that of another
AS. It doesn't say that an AS can use the OP to prevent herself from being
stilled!
Erik Wikström
2005-10-31 18:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:56:44 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
No, but it's probable that they are. A man would most certainly be
shielded and I can not see many women who would not try to resist when
faced with stilling. Another possibility would be that they are
unconscious, which has the added benefit that they can not struggle
physically but on the other hand I would suspect that there's some kind
of cermony that whould require the victim to be conscious.

--
Erik Wikström
Ash
2005-10-31 21:19:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:56:44 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
No, but it's probable that they are. A man would most certainly be
shielded and I can not see many women who would not try to resist when
faced with stilling. Another possibility would be that they are
unconscious, which has the added benefit that they can not struggle
physically but on the other hand I would suspect that there's some kind
of cermony that whould require the victim to be conscious.
Perhaps. Maybe it is just how I see shielding that makes me unsure. I
think back to how Nynaeve was trying to still Moghedien, but the weave
was blunted and it became just a shield and it seems to me she was
cutting the link to the source, something she couldn't have done if
Moghedien wasn't holding the source.
Of course, this is just my impression, but I have seen nothing that
suggests a person must be shielded before they are stilled.
Erik Wikström
2005-10-31 21:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:56:44 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
No, but it's probable that they are. A man would most certainly be
shielded and I can not see many women who would not try to resist when
faced with stilling. Another possibility would be that they are
unconscious, which has the added benefit that they can not struggle
physically but on the other hand I would suspect that there's some kind
of cermony that whould require the victim to be conscious.
Perhaps. Maybe it is just how I see shielding that makes me unsure. I
think back to how Nynaeve was trying to still Moghedien, but the weave
was blunted and it became just a shield and it seems to me she was
cutting the link to the source, something she couldn't have done if
Moghedien wasn't holding the source.
Of course, this is just my impression, but I have seen nothing that
suggests a person must be shielded before they are stilled.
Egwene was after she was captured by the TAS. Had the link really been
cut she would have been stilled, or what would else be the differance
between being shielded and stilled? I'm thinking that it's probably
harder (or even impossible) to still someone holding the source, much as
it's harder to shield someone holding it.

--
Erik Wikström
Ash
2005-11-01 10:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Ash
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:56:44 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
No, but it's probable that they are. A man would most certainly be
shielded and I can not see many women who would not try to resist when
faced with stilling. Another possibility would be that they are
unconscious, which has the added benefit that they can not struggle
physically but on the other hand I would suspect that there's some kind
of cermony that whould require the victim to be conscious.
Perhaps. Maybe it is just how I see shielding that makes me unsure. I
think back to how Nynaeve was trying to still Moghedien, but the weave
was blunted and it became just a shield and it seems to me she was
cutting the link to the source, something she couldn't have done if
Moghedien wasn't holding the source.
Of course, this is just my impression, but I have seen nothing that
suggests a person must be shielded before they are stilled.
Egwene was after she was captured by the TAS. Had the link really been
cut she would have been stilled, or what would else be the differance
between being shielded and stilled? I'm thinking that it's probably
harder (or even impossible) to still someone holding the source, much as
it's harder to shield someone holding it.
You are probably right and I am reading too much into it, but we
certainly don't know that a person is shielded when we are stilled. From
the Moghedien'Nynaeve scene, the weaves are similar, but stilling is
sharper, as it is a cutting. But, what are they cutting? If a person is
holding the source, they can cut that connection, but if not? I don't
see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut" that she felt
in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai ever.
Karan Juneja
2005-11-01 14:07:34 UTC
Permalink
[snipity]
Post by Ash
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Ash
Perhaps. Maybe it is just how I see shielding that makes me unsure. I
think back to how Nynaeve was trying to still Moghedien, but the
weave was blunted and it became just a shield and it seems to me she
was cutting the link to the source, something she couldn't have done
if Moghedien wasn't holding the source.
Of course, this is just my impression, but I have seen nothing that
suggests a person must be shielded before they are stilled.
Egwene was after she was captured by the TAS. Had the link really been
cut she would have been stilled, or what would else be the differance
between being shielded and stilled? I'm thinking that it's probably
harder (or even impossible) to still someone holding the source, much as
it's harder to shield someone holding it.
You are probably right and I am reading too much into it, but we
certainly don't know that a person is shielded when we are stilled. From
the Moghedien'Nynaeve scene, the weaves are similar, but stilling is
sharper, as it is a cutting. But, what are they cutting? If a person is
holding the source, they can cut that connection, but if not? I don't
see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut" that she felt
in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai ever.
Ok, as I mentioned elsewhere in this topic, think of the connection to
the source as a hose. If you're channelling, the hose is flowing with
OP. Blocking someone who isn't holding the source is kinda like...
trying to cut the hose with a blunt pair of scissors. You'd just pinch
it, and stop the potential to flow. (work with me here, the analogy's a
little weak). Cutting the hose requires a sharper edge.

Now if you want to try this at home, go ahead.
Karan Juneja
2005-11-01 14:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Ash wrote:
[snippity]
Post by Ash
Post by Erik Wikström
Egwene was after she was captured by the TAS. Had the link really been
cut she would have been stilled, or what would else be the differance
between being shielded and stilled? I'm thinking that it's probably
harder (or even impossible) to still someone holding the source, much as
it's harder to shield someone holding it.
You are probably right and I am reading too much into it, but we
certainly don't know that a person is shielded when we are stilled. From
the Moghedien'Nynaeve scene, the weaves are similar, but stilling is
sharper, as it is a cutting. But, what are they cutting? If a person is
holding the source, they can cut that connection, but if not? I don't
see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut" that she felt
in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai ever.
Ok, as I mentioned elsewhere in this topic, think of the connection to
the source as a hose. If you're channelling, the hose is flowing with
OP. Blocking someone who isn't holding the source is kinda like...
trying to cut the hose with a blunt pair of scissors. You'd just pinch
it, and stop the potential to flow. (work with me here, the analogy's a
little weak). Cutting the hose requires a sharper edge.

Now turn on the water/OP. Suddenly, the hose is a lot harder, either to
pinch shut or even cut. Geddit? But the whole time, the hose was there,
whether water/OP was flowing or not.

Now if you want to try this at home, go ahead. Though if you get wet
don't blame me :P
--
KJ
Erik Wikström
2005-11-01 17:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davian
I don't
see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut" that she felt
in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai ever.
I believe that no AS have ever been willing to study a stilled person
before, most AS seems to be afraid of even talking about it.

--
Erik Wikström
Christer Jacobsson
2005-11-10 08:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Wikström
I don't see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut" that
she felt in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai ever.
I believe that no AS have ever been willing to study a stilled person
before, most AS seems to be afraid of even talking about it.
Which just goes to show how an uscientific bunch they are. Just
because the thought of being involuntary stilled (AKA burned out) make
the AS queasy should not stop them doing serious research on the
subject. For example, in our world, during the Manhattan Project, Otto
Frish did criticality experiments on U235 hydride bars which he
stacked together while observing a neutron counter so he'll know when
he approached a critical assembly. One day the following happened
(qoute from The Making of The Atomic Bomb by Rhodes, p610-11):

$<quote>

Frisch nearly caused a runway reaction one day be leaning too close to
a naked assembly - he called it a Lady Godiva - that was just
subcritical, allowing the hydrogen in his body to reflect back
neutrons. "At that moment," he remembers, "out of the corner of my eye
I saw that the little red monitoring lamps had stopped flickering.
They appeared to be glowing continuously. The flicker had speeded up
so much that it could no longer be perceived." Instantly Frish swept
his hand across the top of the assembly and knocked away some of the
hydride bars. "The lamps slowed down again to a visible flicker." In
two seconds he had received by the generous standards of the wartime
era a full day's permissible dose of radiation.

$</quote>

He was stirred, not shaken, by this experience :-)

Did this stop him from doing experiments with full critical masses of
U235? No, he went ahead and did the Dragon experiment which entailed
dropping a piece of U235 trough a hole in a bigger piece of U235 thus
creating a full critical mass for perhaps one millisecond. In this way
he was able to determine the needed amount of U235 for Little Boy.
Later, in 1946, a physicist named Dalghlian(sp?) fumbled while
handling a subcritical assembly of Pu239 which wen supercritical and
flooded him with a deadly amount of radiation - he died a week later.
This didn't put any dent in the then ongoing nuclear weapons research
at Los Alamos.

Stilling does *not* equate death for an AS. It *is* possible to
transfer the will-to-live to another cause, just see what drove
Siuan&Leand after they been stilled (the search for revenge).

It seems Sisters are more superstitious than the MDs of our day. For
most male MDs, castration is a "fate worse than Death" but that does
not stop them from studying the effects of castration
(chemical/surgical) on men of various ages. Castration is a legit
medical procedure and men are castrated by accident so there no lack
of subjects to study.

But one thing have bugged me since Traveling was discovered: Why
haven't the AS tried to use it for communications? We knot that
objects, light and sound can travel both ways through a Gateway, just
look at the scene in TPOD when the Seanchan sends a storm of arrows
through a Gateway towards Elayne and she throws fireballs the other
way. Now if you just want to communicate, a woman-sized Gateway is not
necessary, just one big enough so you can see the face of the person
you want to talk to on the other side. Designate a room as the
"Communications centre" and have a channeler stationed there like a
radio operator in our world. A outside channeler who knows where the
room is can open a communication Gateway into it and initiate traffic
or the channeler in the room can open a CG to a location outside. As
more and more AS/Ash'amans learns to Travel, they should be able to
construct a communications network using these small Gateways. Instant
messaging instead of relying on pigeons or (un)reliable human couriers!

But now I must go OT and ask this ng a small question. I use mozilla
to read newsgroups and in mozilla the newsgroup window is split
horizontally in the middle. In the upper panel are the headers and in
the lower panel are the text body of the current header. When I click
on a header or tag down to the next header with the 'down arrow' key,
a new body is read in. To put focus on the body I have to mouse-click
inside it. But I prefer shifting focus between header and body via the
keyboard and I have a feeling there IS a keyboard way jumping the
focus from the header window to the body window. The reason I want to
navigate via the keyboard is that I got the use of the keyboard and
command line via my mother breastfeeding me. :-) The use of the mouse
I didn't learn until my middle age... :-(
--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 9th Anniversary & 25th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se
Erik Wikström
2005-11-10 20:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
I don't see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut" that
she felt in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai ever.
I believe that no AS have ever been willing to study a stilled person
before, most AS seems to be afraid of even talking about it.
<snip>
Post by Christer Jacobsson
It seems Sisters are more superstitious than the MDs of our day. For
most male MDs, castration is a "fate worse than Death" but that does
not stop them from studying the effects of castration
(chemical/surgical) on men of various ages. Castration is a legit
medical procedure and men are castrated by accident so there no lack
of subjects to study.
But one thing have bugged me since Traveling was discovered: Why
haven't the AS tried to use it for communications? We knot that
objects, light and sound can travel both ways through a Gateway, just
look at the scene in TPOD when the Seanchan sends a storm of arrows
through a Gateway towards Elayne and she throws fireballs the other
way. Now if you just want to communicate, a woman-sized Gateway is not
necessary, just one big enough so you can see the face of the person
you want to talk to on the other side. Designate a room as the
"Communications centre" and have a channeler stationed there like a
radio operator in our world. A outside channeler who knows where the
room is can open a communication Gateway into it and initiate traffic
or the channeler in the room can open a CG to a location outside. As
more and more AS/Ash'amans learns to Travel, they should be able to
construct a communications network using these small Gateways. Instant
messaging instead of relying on pigeons or (un)reliable human couriers!
I do believe that you are correct. I've always thought that science can
replace superstition and to some extent religious faith. Both
superstition and parts of religion is used to explain things that humans
could not understand. As we gain knowledge of how things work and why
things are as they are we (at least some of os) becomes less
superstitious. We also become more willing to investigate things and
find out how they work since we know that we probably can find some way
to explain it. Since the industrialisation we have turned almost
everything into science and we always want a logical way to explain
things. My point is (I do have one) that in Randland there is no wide
spread of science (though we've seen some) and the center of knowledge
is the WT, where a bunch of people who use a force that they don't
really understand live. Notice also that there have seem to have been
very little or no invention into how to use the OP for years bofore the
books. The people is simply not inovative.
Post by Christer Jacobsson
But now I must go OT and ask this ng a small question. I use mozilla
to read newsgroups and in mozilla the newsgroup window is split
horizontally in the middle. In the upper panel are the headers and in
the lower panel are the text body of the current header. When I click
on a header or tag down to the next header with the 'down arrow' key,
a new body is read in. To put focus on the body I have to mouse-click
inside it. But I prefer shifting focus between header and body via the
keyboard and I have a feeling there IS a keyboard way jumping the
focus from the header window to the body window. The reason I want to
navigate via the keyboard is that I got the use of the keyboard and
command line via my mother breastfeeding me. :-) The use of the mouse
I didn't learn until my middle age... :-(
I'm using Thunderbird so it might be a bit different, but if I have the
mail-body part of the window selected and use the N-key to go to the
next unread message I still have the text focused.

Erik Wikström
--
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure
out how to use my telephone" -- Bjarne Stroustrup
Christer Jacobsson
2005-11-11 04:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
I don't see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut"
that she felt in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai
ever.
I believe that no AS have ever been willing to study a stilled person
before, most AS seems to be afraid of even talking about it.
<snip>
Post by Christer Jacobsson
It seems Sisters are more superstitious than the MDs of our day. For
most male MDs, castration is a "fate worse than Death" but that does
not stop them from studying the effects of castration
(chemical/surgical) on men of various ages. Castration is a legit
medical procedure and men are castrated by accident so there no lack
of subjects to study.
But one thing have bugged me since Traveling was discovered: Why
haven't the AS tried to use it for communications? We knot that
objects, light and sound can travel both ways through a Gateway, just
look at the scene in TPOD when the Seanchan sends a storm of arrows
through a Gateway towards Elayne and she throws fireballs the other
way. Now if you just want to communicate, a woman-sized Gateway is not
necessary, just one big enough so you can see the face of the person
you want to talk to on the other side. Designate a room as the
"Communications centre" and have a channeler stationed there like a
radio operator in our world. A outside channeler who knows where the
room is can open a communication Gateway into it and initiate traffic
or the channeler in the room can open a CG to a location outside. As
more and more AS/Ash'amans learns to Travel, they should be able to
construct a communications network using these small Gateways. Instant
messaging instead of relying on pigeons or (un)reliable human couriers!
I do believe that you are correct. I've always thought that science can
replace superstition and to some extent religious faith. Both
superstition and parts of religion is used to explain things that humans
could not understand. As we gain knowledge of how things work and why
things are as they are we (at least some of os) becomes less
superstitious. We also become more willing to investigate things and
find out how they work since we know that we probably can find some way
to explain it. Since the industrialisation we have turned almost
everything into science and we always want a logical way to explain
things. My point is (I do have one) that in Randland there is no wide
spread of science (though we've seen some) and the center of knowledge
is the WT, where a bunch of people who use a force that they don't
really understand live. Notice also that there have seem to have been
very little or no invention into how to use the OP for years bofore the
books. The people is simply not inovative.
And tha's very curious. The AS in AoL was almost certainly scientists
and inventors and it was (probably) they that ran the science research
center called the Sharom where, amongst other, Beidemon & Mierin worked.

As to their un-inovative, can the root cause behind this be the same
as that which caused the Randland population decline after the Hundred
Years War and the appearence of ungoverned and empty stretches of land
after that war? Can it be Sammael? (was he free then?)
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
But now I must go OT and ask this ng a small question. I use mozilla
to read newsgroups and in mozilla the newsgroup window is split
horizontally in the middle. In the upper panel are the headers and in
the lower panel are the text body of the current header. When I click
on a header or tag down to the next header with the 'down arrow' key,
a new body is read in. To put focus on the body I have to mouse-click
inside it. But I prefer shifting focus between header and body via the
keyboard and I have a feeling there IS a keyboard way jumping the
focus from the header window to the body window. The reason I want to
navigate via the keyboard is that I got the use of the keyboard and
command line via my mother breastfeeding me. :-) The use of the mouse
I didn't learn until my middle age... :-(
I'm using Thunderbird so it might be a bit different, but if I have the
mail-body part of the window selected and use the N-key to go to the
next unread message I still have the text focused.
That was not quite what I wanted. I wanted th shift focus betwwen the
two windows, say from headers-window to mailbody-window and back to
headers-windows again. I think it can be done by the TAB key or a
combination of <other key>+TAB, but I'm not sure wich.
--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 9th Anniversary & 25th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se
Chunkawakan
Erik Wikström
2005-11-11 12:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
I don't see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut"
that she felt in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai
ever.
I believe that no AS have ever been willing to study a stilled person
before, most AS seems to be afraid of even talking about it.
<snip>
Post by Christer Jacobsson
It seems Sisters are more superstitious than the MDs of our day. For
most male MDs, castration is a "fate worse than Death" but that does
not stop them from studying the effects of castration
(chemical/surgical) on men of various ages. Castration is a legit
medical procedure and men are castrated by accident so there no lack
of subjects to study.
But one thing have bugged me since Traveling was discovered: Why
haven't the AS tried to use it for communications? We knot that
objects, light and sound can travel both ways through a Gateway, just
look at the scene in TPOD when the Seanchan sends a storm of arrows
through a Gateway towards Elayne and she throws fireballs the other
way. Now if you just want to communicate, a woman-sized Gateway is not
necessary, just one big enough so you can see the face of the person
you want to talk to on the other side. Designate a room as the
"Communications centre" and have a channeler stationed there like a
radio operator in our world. A outside channeler who knows where the
room is can open a communication Gateway into it and initiate traffic
or the channeler in the room can open a CG to a location outside. As
more and more AS/Ash'amans learns to Travel, they should be able to
construct a communications network using these small Gateways. Instant
messaging instead of relying on pigeons or (un)reliable human couriers!
I do believe that you are correct. I've always thought that science can
replace superstition and to some extent religious faith. Both
superstition and parts of religion is used to explain things that humans
could not understand. As we gain knowledge of how things work and why
things are as they are we (at least some of os) becomes less
superstitious. We also become more willing to investigate things and
find out how they work since we know that we probably can find some way
to explain it. Since the industrialisation we have turned almost
everything into science and we always want a logical way to explain
things. My point is (I do have one) that in Randland there is no wide
spread of science (though we've seen some) and the center of knowledge
is the WT, where a bunch of people who use a force that they don't
really understand live. Notice also that there have seem to have been
very little or no invention into how to use the OP for years bofore the
books. The people is simply not inovative.
And tha's very curious. The AS in AoL was almost certainly scientists
and inventors and it was (probably) they that ran the science research
center called the Sharom where, amongst other, Beidemon & Mierin worked.
As to their un-inovative, can the root cause behind this be the same
as that which caused the Randland population decline after the Hundred
Years War and the appearence of ungoverned and empty stretches of land
after that war? Can it be Sammael? (was he free then?)
No, but Ishy might have had something to do with it, he could exert a
certain amount of influence I think.

Erik Wikström
--
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure
out how to use my telephone" -- Bjarne Stroustrup
Christer Jacobsson
2005-11-14 13:23:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:58:41 UTC, Erik Wikstr�m
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
I don't see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut"
that she felt in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai
ever.
I believe that no AS have ever been willing to study a stilled person
before, most AS seems to be afraid of even talking about it.
<snip>
Post by Christer Jacobsson
It seems Sisters are more superstitious than the MDs of our day. For
most male MDs, castration is a "fate worse than Death" but that does
not stop them from studying the effects of castration
(chemical/surgical) on men of various ages. Castration is a legit
medical procedure and men are castrated by accident so there no lack
of subjects to study.
But one thing have bugged me since Traveling was discovered: Why
haven't the AS tried to use it for communications? We knot that
objects, light and sound can travel both ways through a Gateway, just
look at the scene in TPOD when the Seanchan sends a storm of arrows
through a Gateway towards Elayne and she throws fireballs the other
way. Now if you just want to communicate, a woman-sized Gateway is not
necessary, just one big enough so you can see the face of the person
you want to talk to on the other side. Designate a room as the
"Communications centre" and have a channeler stationed there like a
radio operator in our world. A outside channeler who knows where the
room is can open a communication Gateway into it and initiate traffic
or the channeler in the room can open a CG to a location outside. As
more and more AS/Ash'amans learns to Travel, they should be able to
construct a communications network using these small Gateways. Instant
messaging instead of relying on pigeons or (un)reliable human couriers!
I do believe that you are correct. I've always thought that science can
replace superstition and to some extent religious faith. Both
superstition and parts of religion is used to explain things that humans
could not understand. As we gain knowledge of how things work and why
things are as they are we (at least some of os) becomes less
superstitious. We also become more willing to investigate things and
find out how they work since we know that we probably can find some way
to explain it. Since the industrialisation we have turned almost
everything into science and we always want a logical way to explain
things. My point is (I do have one) that in Randland there is no wide
spread of science (though we've seen some) and the center of knowledge
is the WT, where a bunch of people who use a force that they don't
really understand live. Notice also that there have seem to have been
very little or no invention into how to use the OP for years bofore the
books. The people is simply not inovative.
And tha's very curious. The AS in AoL was almost certainly scientists
and inventors and it was (probably) they that ran the science research
center called the Sharom where, amongst other, Beidemon & Mierin worked.
As to their un-inovative, can the root cause behind this be the same
as that which caused the Randland population decline after the Hundred
Years War and the appearence of ungoverned and empty stretches of land
after that war? Can it be Sammael? (was he free then?)
No, but Ishy might have had something to do with it, he could exert a
certain amount of influence I think.
It was him that I had in mind, but when I wrote my post I had mislaid
his name and used Sammael instead.

But how did Ishy go about making the population decline in Randland
after
the Hundred Years War? Not just during and immediately after the war
but for hundreds of years afterward? Compare with our world: our
Hundred Year War was between 1337-1453 and the Black Death AKA Great
Death AKA Digerd�den hit Western Europe 1348-50, killing over 25%
of the population. Never had Western civilization suffered such a
savage one-two punch but it didn't take many years before the number
of people was on the rise again. The big killer was the Black Death:
the Hundred-Years War was more a series of battles than continuous
warfare for over a century. The big killer was Pestilence, not War.
Ishy must have sown some long-lasting influence in the Randland
population for it to decline long after the War was over. Could he
had spread some sterility-causing agent in the general population, for
example long-lived radionuclides which he may have stashed away in
stasis boxes before/during the Breaking? Not those with ultra-long
half-lives like U-238 (4.5Gyear), Th-232 (14Gyear) or those with short
half-lives like Sr-90 (28year) or Cs-137 (30years) but nuclides with
intermediary half-lives like Ra-226 (1600year) or Pu-239 (26kyear).
They
would be perfect as post-Breaking technologies can't detect them and
they can't be detected with OP so AS searching for them would have
drawn a blank.

--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 9th Anniversary & 25th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se
Chunkawakan
Erik Wikström
2005-11-14 15:53:31 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:58:41 UTC, Erik Wikström
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
I don't see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut"
that she felt in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai
ever.
I believe that no AS have ever been willing to study a stilled person
before, most AS seems to be afraid of even talking about it.
<snip>
Post by Christer Jacobsson
It seems Sisters are more superstitious than the MDs of our day. For
most male MDs, castration is a "fate worse than Death" but that does
not stop them from studying the effects of castration
(chemical/surgical) on men of various ages. Castration is a legit
medical procedure and men are castrated by accident so there no lack
of subjects to study.
But one thing have bugged me since Traveling was discovered: Why
haven't the AS tried to use it for communications? We knot that
objects, light and sound can travel both ways through a Gateway, just
look at the scene in TPOD when the Seanchan sends a storm of arrows
through a Gateway towards Elayne and she throws fireballs the other
way. Now if you just want to communicate, a woman-sized Gateway is not
necessary, just one big enough so you can see the face of the person
you want to talk to on the other side. Designate a room as the
"Communications centre" and have a channeler stationed there like a
radio operator in our world. A outside channeler who knows where the
room is can open a communication Gateway into it and initiate traffic
or the channeler in the room can open a CG to a location outside. As
more and more AS/Ash'amans learns to Travel, they should be able to
construct a communications network using these small Gateways. Instant
messaging instead of relying on pigeons or (un)reliable human couriers!
I do believe that you are correct. I've always thought that science can
replace superstition and to some extent religious faith. Both
superstition and parts of religion is used to explain things that humans
could not understand. As we gain knowledge of how things work and why
things are as they are we (at least some of os) becomes less
superstitious. We also become more willing to investigate things and
find out how they work since we know that we probably can find some way
to explain it. Since the industrialisation we have turned almost
everything into science and we always want a logical way to explain
things. My point is (I do have one) that in Randland there is no wide
spread of science (though we've seen some) and the center of knowledge
is the WT, where a bunch of people who use a force that they don't
really understand live. Notice also that there have seem to have been
very little or no invention into how to use the OP for years bofore the
books. The people is simply not inovative.
And tha's very curious. The AS in AoL was almost certainly scientists
and inventors and it was (probably) they that ran the science research
center called the Sharom where, amongst other, Beidemon & Mierin worked.
As to their un-inovative, can the root cause behind this be the same
as that which caused the Randland population decline after the Hundred
Years War and the appearence of ungoverned and empty stretches of land
after that war? Can it be Sammael? (was he free then?)
No, but Ishy might have had something to do with it, he could exert a
certain amount of influence I think.
It was him that I had in mind, but when I wrote my post I had mislaid
his name and used Sammael instead.
But how did Ishy go about making the population decline in Randland
after
the Hundred Years War? Not just during and immediately after the war
but for hundreds of years afterward? Compare with our world: our
Hundred Year War was between 1337-1453 and the Black Death AKA Great
Death AKA Digerd”den hit Western Europe 1348-50, killing over 25%
of the population. Never had Western civilization suffered such a
savage one-two punch but it didn't take many years before the number
the Hundred-Years War was more a series of battles than continuous
warfare for over a century. The big killer was Pestilence, not War.
Ishy must have sown some long-lasting influence in the Randland
population for it to decline long after the War was over. Could he
had spread some sterility-causing agent in the general population, for
example long-lived radionuclides which he may have stashed away in
stasis boxes before/during the Breaking? Not those with ultra-long
half-lives like U-238 (4.5Gyear), Th-232 (14Gyear) or those with short
half-lives like Sr-90 (28year) or Cs-137 (30years) but nuclides with
intermediary half-lives like Ra-226 (1600year) or Pu-239 (26kyear).
They
would be perfect as post-Breaking technologies can't detect them and
they can't be detected with OP so AS searching for them would have
drawn a blank.
I have no answer to your question but as far as I understood things Ishy
did not have that much influence, more like he was able to communicate
with DF in someway but not directly affect the world. However if it was
Ishy indeed then it might be possible that he did not have the ability
to do even that much before the the Hundred Years War, maybe it was
first at that point that the seals weakened enough to let him fiddle
with the world.

Erik Wikström
--
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure
out how to use my telephone" -- Bjarne Stroustrup
Peter Reid
2005-11-11 15:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
I'm using Thunderbird so it might be a bit different, but if I have
the mail-body part of the window selected and use the N-key to go to
the next unread message I still have the text focused.
That was not quite what I wanted. I wanted th shift focus betwwen the
two windows, say from headers-window to mailbody-window and back to
headers-windows again. I think it can be done by the TAB key or a
combination of <other key>+TAB, but I'm not sure wich.
I'm also using Thunderbird. TAB works to go from the subject window to
the message window; shift-TAB goes the other way.
--
Peter Reid
***@CAPSrogers.com
Christer Jacobsson
2005-11-14 10:08:50 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:21:20 UTC, Erik Wikstr�m
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
I don't see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut" that
she felt in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai ever.
I believe that no AS have ever been willing to study a stilled person
before, most AS seems to be afraid of even talking about it.
<snip>
Post by Christer Jacobsson
It seems Sisters are more superstitious than the MDs of our day. For
most male MDs, castration is a "fate worse than Death" but that does
not stop them from studying the effects of castration
(chemical/surgical) on men of various ages. Castration is a legit
medical procedure and men are castrated by accident so there no lack
of subjects to study.
But one thing have bugged me since Traveling was discovered: Why
haven't the AS tried to use it for communications? We knot that
objects, light and sound can travel both ways through a Gateway, just
look at the scene in TPOD when the Seanchan sends a storm of arrows
through a Gateway towards Elayne and she throws fireballs the other
way. Now if you just want to communicate, a woman-sized Gateway is not
necessary, just one big enough so you can see the face of the person
you want to talk to on the other side. Designate a room as the
"Communications centre" and have a channeler stationed there like a
radio operator in our world. A outside channeler who knows where the
room is can open a communication Gateway into it and initiate traffic
or the channeler in the room can open a CG to a location outside. As
more and more AS/Ash'amans learns to Travel, they should be able to
construct a communications network using these small Gateways. Instant
messaging instead of relying on pigeons or (un)reliable human couriers!
I do believe that you are correct. I've always thought that science can
replace superstition and to some extent religious faith. Both
superstition and parts of religion is used to explain things that humans
could not understand. As we gain knowledge of how things work and why
things are as they are we (at least some of os) becomes less
superstitious. We also become more willing to investigate things and
find out how they work since we know that we probably can find some way
to explain it. Since the industrialisation we have turned almost
everything into science and we always want a logical way to explain
things. My point is (I do have one) that in Randland there is no wide
spread of science (though we've seen some) and the center of knowledge
is the WT, where a bunch of people who use a force that they don't
really understand live.
This has bugged me no end. Here we have before the Breaking the
organization "Servants To All" (SoA) who organize all channelers and
who is the repository of OP knowledge. The Bore is drilled, the
Breaking follows, the society disintegrates and knowledge is lost.
Female AS survive and eventually create the WT. Now the Breaking
lasted
a century or so which is much shorter than an ordinary AS lifespan.
If the pre-Breaking AS was rational they would have tried to save as
much information from before the Breaking, whatever that saving may
costed them *and* they would have instilled their successors with the
importance of scientific knowledge and the scientific method. So even
if the AS after the Breaking didn't have any hi-tech gadgets they
should have been able to do OP science and know of the scientific
method. They and we know that the Power is NOT magic, you can do
repeatable and falsifiable experiments with the Power.

Loony theory worth 5x10**(-2) SEK: Could a Forsaken - before they
were imprisoned in the Bore - had corrupted the mindset of the AS so
that they would turn from science towards superstition? It would
explain much of the behaviour of today's AS. Compare with the Ash:
they are NOT afraid of doing OP experiments! But OTOH, they were able
to do a totally fresh start with no 3k-year old baggage and ballast
:-)
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
But now I must go OT and ask this ng a small question. I use mozilla
to read newsgroups and in mozilla the newsgroup window is split
horizontally in the middle. In the upper panel are the headers and in
the lower panel are the text body of the current header. When I click
on a header or tag down to the next header with the 'down arrow' key,
a new body is read in. To put focus on the body I have to mouse-click
inside it. But I prefer shifting focus between header and body via the
keyboard and I have a feeling there IS a keyboard way jumping the
focus from the header window to the body window. The reason I want to
navigate via the keyboard is that I got the use of the keyboard and
command line via my mother breastfeeding me. :-) The use of the mouse
I didn't learn until my middle age... :-(
I'm using Thunderbird so it might be a bit different, but if I have the
mail-body part of the window selected and use the N-key to go to the
next unread message I still have the text focused.
I have switched from Moz newsreader to Pronews/2, are waiting for the
reg key to arrive. It can be navigated from the keyboard, it's fast,
it
does not crash the way moz does and it's lean and mean :-) PLUS it's
possible to use an external editor for msg composing - I am using the
Tiny Editor (TEDIT) which is shipped with Warp and I have programmed
Pronews/2 to start it in a fullscreen session. Also, TEDIT uses the
standard monospace font found in fullscreen session, not that Helv or
Courier variable-font crap.


--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 9th Anniversary & 25th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se
Chunkawakan
Erik Wikström
2005-11-14 11:42:39 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:21:20 UTC, Erik Wikström
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Christer Jacobsson
Post by Erik Wikström
I don't see it, especially as the whole "sense of something cut" that
she felt in Siuan and Leane hadn't been seen by other Aes Sedai ever.
I believe that no AS have ever been willing to study a stilled person
before, most AS seems to be afraid of even talking about it.
<snip>
Post by Christer Jacobsson
It seems Sisters are more superstitious than the MDs of our day. For
most male MDs, castration is a "fate worse than Death" but that does
not stop them from studying the effects of castration
(chemical/surgical) on men of various ages. Castration is a legit
medical procedure and men are castrated by accident so there no lack
of subjects to study.
But one thing have bugged me since Traveling was discovered: Why
haven't the AS tried to use it for communications? We knot that
objects, light and sound can travel both ways through a Gateway, just
look at the scene in TPOD when the Seanchan sends a storm of arrows
through a Gateway towards Elayne and she throws fireballs the other
way. Now if you just want to communicate, a woman-sized Gateway is not
necessary, just one big enough so you can see the face of the person
you want to talk to on the other side. Designate a room as the
"Communications centre" and have a channeler stationed there like a
radio operator in our world. A outside channeler who knows where the
room is can open a communication Gateway into it and initiate traffic
or the channeler in the room can open a CG to a location outside. As
more and more AS/Ash'amans learns to Travel, they should be able to
construct a communications network using these small Gateways. Instant
messaging instead of relying on pigeons or (un)reliable human couriers!
I do believe that you are correct. I've always thought that science can
replace superstition and to some extent religious faith. Both
superstition and parts of religion is used to explain things that humans
could not understand. As we gain knowledge of how things work and why
things are as they are we (at least some of os) becomes less
superstitious. We also become more willing to investigate things and
find out how they work since we know that we probably can find some way
to explain it. Since the industrialisation we have turned almost
everything into science and we always want a logical way to explain
things. My point is (I do have one) that in Randland there is no wide
spread of science (though we've seen some) and the center of knowledge
is the WT, where a bunch of people who use a force that they don't
really understand live.
This has bugged me no end. Here we have before the Breaking the
organization "Servants To All" (SoA) who organize all channelers and
who is the repository of OP knowledge. The Bore is drilled, the
Breaking follows, the society disintegrates and knowledge is lost.
Female AS survive and eventually create the WT. Now the Breaking
lasted a century or so which is much shorter than an ordinary AS
lifespan. If the pre-Breaking AS was rational they would have tried
to save as much information from before the Breaking, whatever that
saving may costed them *and* they would have instilled their
successors with the importance of scientific knowledge and the
scientific method. So even if the AS after the Breaking didn't have
any hi-tech gadgets they should have been able to do OP science and
know of the scientific method. They and we know that the Power is NOT
magic, you can do repeatable and falsifiable experiments with the
Power.
The breaking lasted two and a half to three and a half century according
to the guide. It also sais that it's improbable that any of the AS
living after the Breaking had been alive before or even as long as half
of the Breaking. After the AS were scattered and many groups formed but
they did not all work together. Much of the knowledge was already lost
when the Breaking ended and the WT was not finished befor two centuries
later and I'm not sure that all AS were organized under it by that time.
In short, by the end of the Breaking none of the origional AS were
alive, those AS that lived were scattered into small groups and had
other problems to deal with (men going mad among other things) so the
amount of knowledge that could be passed on was limited.

Don't forget that at this time just satisfying the besic needs was
troublesome and it was probably hard even to find novices. Much
knowledge would have been deemed unnecessary at that time since it
didn't have any practical application when trying to stay alive.
Loony theory worth 5x10**(-2) SEK: Could a Forsaken - before they
were imprisoned in the Bore - had corrupted the mindset of the AS so
that they would turn from science towards superstition? It would
they are NOT afraid of doing OP experiments! But OTOH, they were able
to do a totally fresh start with no 3k-year old baggage and ballast
:-)
No, don't think so. There were at least a couple of years between the
sealing and the Breaking, during which most things went on as usual (DF
and their armies to kill) except that men were going mad.

Erik Wikström
--
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure
out how to use my telephone" -- Bjarne Stroustrup
Tim Bruening
2005-11-12 06:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christer Jacobsson
But one thing have bugged me since Traveling was discovered: Why
haven't the AS tried to use it for communications? We knot that
objects, light and sound can travel both ways through a Gateway, just
look at the scene in TPOD when the Seanchan sends a storm of arrows
through a Gateway towards Elayne and she throws fireballs the other
way. Now if you just want to communicate, a woman-sized Gateway is not
necessary, just one big enough so you can see the face of the person
you want to talk to on the other side. Designate a room as the
"Communications centre" and have a channeler stationed there like a
radio operator in our world. A outside channeler who knows where the
room is can open a communication Gateway into it and initiate traffic
or the channeler in the room can open a CG to a location outside. As
more and more AS/Ash'amans learns to Travel, they should be able to
construct a communications network using these small Gateways. Instant
messaging instead of relying on pigeons or (un)reliable human couriers!
How do we contact RJ about communications Gateways.
Jasper Janssen
2005-10-31 23:44:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:19:05 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
Of course, this is just my impression, but I have seen nothing that
suggests a person must be shielded before they are stilled.
Not Power-wise, probably, no. But would you want to keep her able to
channel while she knows she's going to be stilled? Would you want to bet
on the Three Oaths holding, including for non-AS?

Jasper
Petter Strandmark
2005-11-01 19:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Of course, this is just my impression, but I have seen nothing that
suggests a person must be shielded before they are stilled.
Yes, Rand stills an Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells, without shielding her
first, so at least it's possible.

I haven't got LoC here, but this is how I remember it.
--
Petter
Donald S. Crankshaw
2005-11-02 03:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Strandmark
Post by Ash
Of course, this is just my impression, but I have seen nothing that
suggests a person must be shielded before they are stilled.
Yes, Rand stills an Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells, without shielding her
first, so at least it's possible.
I haven't got LoC here, but this is how I remember it.
Read the description of Nynaeve's fight with Moghedien in Book 4. The
weave for stilling is very similar to the weave for shielding.
Nynaeve's weave was intended to still Moghedien, but it was dulled when
it passed through Moghedien's barrier, so it only shielded her.

-Donald S. Crankshaw
zheemnookin
2005-11-02 03:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donald S. Crankshaw
Read the description of Nynaeve's fight with Moghedien in Book 4. The
weave for stilling is very similar to the weave for shielding.
Nynaeve's weave was intended to still Moghedien, but it was dulled when
it passed through Moghedien's barrier, so it only shielded her.
We find out even earlier, too. In Book 2 (or 3?), Egwene faces off
against a Black Ajah sister. We see her create a shield -- and then
sharpen its edges -- before she throws it at the AS, stilling her.
Brinner
2005-11-03 16:40:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:56:44 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
No, but it's probable that they are. A man would most certainly be
shielded and I can not see many women who would not try to resist when
faced with stilling. Another possibility would be that they are
unconscious, which has the added benefit that they can not struggle
physically but on the other hand I would suspect that there's some kind
of cermony that whould require the victim to be conscious.
Perhaps. Maybe it is just how I see shielding that makes me unsure. I
think back to how Nynaeve was trying to still Moghedien, but the weave
was blunted and it became just a shield and it seems to me she was
cutting the link to the source, something she couldn't have done if
Moghedien wasn't holding the source.
Of course, this is just my impression, but I have seen nothing that
suggests a person must be shielded before they are stilled.
A person can be shielded before they embrace the source erog they can
be stilled before holding the source.

Brinner
Christer Jacobsson
2005-11-15 02:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brinner
Post by Ash
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:56:44 +0000, Ash
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
At which time the shield on Egwene will fracture (since stilling is always
done shielded, not forkrooted), and Egwene will Save The Day.
Is this true? Did RJ say this, I can't remember it from the books
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
No, but it's probable that they are. A man would most certainly be
shielded and I can not see many women who would not try to resist when
faced with stilling. Another possibility would be that they are
unconscious, which has the added benefit that they can not struggle
physically but on the other hand I would suspect that there's some kind
of cermony that whould require the victim to be conscious.
Perhaps. Maybe it is just how I see shielding that makes me unsure. I
think back to how Nynaeve was trying to still Moghedien, but the weave
was blunted and it became just a shield and it seems to me she was
cutting the link to the source, something she couldn't have done if
Moghedien wasn't holding the source.
Of course, this is just my impression, but I have seen nothing that
suggests a person must be shielded before they are stilled.
A person can be shielded before they embrace the source erog they can
be stilled before holding the source.
It is even stated flatly in the books that's much easier shielding
a channeler if s/he does NOT hold the OP. As the Weave for stillling
is similar to the Weave for shielding it would follow that stilling
a non-holder of OP is eaiser than stilling a holder of OP.

So if you should shield or still somebody, take them by surprise
before they have grabbed the OP.

--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 9th Anniversary & 25th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se
Chunkawakan
Jasper Janssen
2005-10-31 23:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Wikström
No, but it's probable that they are. A man would most certainly be
shielded and I can not see many women who would not try to resist when
faced with stilling. Another possibility would be that they are
unconscious, which has the added benefit that they can not struggle
physically but on the other hand I would suspect that there's some kind
of cermony that whould require the victim to be conscious.
We've seen it in Egwene's Accepted test, I believe. Egwene-the-Amyrlin is
led before the Tower to be stilled, IIRC, and I'm pretty sure she was
shielded. And didn't Leane and Siuan say anything about it at all?

Jasper
Davian
2005-11-01 00:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Erik Wikström
No, but it's probable that they are. A man would most certainly be
shielded and I can not see many women who would not try to resist when
faced with stilling. Another possibility would be that they are
unconscious, which has the added benefit that they can not struggle
physically but on the other hand I would suspect that there's some kind
of cermony that whould require the victim to be conscious.
We've seen it in Egwene's Accepted test, I believe. Egwene-the-Amyrlin is
led before the Tower to be stilled, IIRC, and I'm pretty sure she was
shielded. And didn't Leane and Siuan say anything about it at all?
Nope. In Egwene's Accepted test, they try to do the 13 Black Ajah + 13 Fades
trick to turn her to the Shadow, not still her. They attempt to gentle Rand,
but not still Egwene.

With that said though, this is a common sense thing. Of course a captive
channeler is kept shielded until they are stilled, otherwise you have no
chance in hell of keeping them captive that long.

As far as it relates to men, we know from Rand's capture in LoC that custom
dictates no less than 5 Aes Sedai (or was it 6?) must maintain a shield on a
man who can channel during his captivity. (And custom dictates that they must
maintain it, not tie it off.) I see no reason why they would treat female
channelers any differently.
--
Jeff

Davian / Dearic
Peter Reid
2005-11-01 18:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Jasper Janssen
Forkroot didn't exist until a year or two ago and stilling is a tradition
going back before the Breaking. QED.
This does not prove that a person is shielded before being stilled
That would be like trying to use the electric chair on someone without
strapping them into it.
--
Peter Reid
***@CAPSrogers.com
Bill E. Brooks
2005-10-30 09:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@gmail.com
FAQABLES
Spoiler Space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
6. Where has Verin gone? What information in the previous few days did
she have the possibility of learning to make her think she should go
then as opposed to later to do something?
Likely Verin went to get the Horn of Valere. She and maybe Siuan are
the only ones who know where it is, after all, and somebody has to
retrieve it in book 12. This would also explain she refused to tell
Rand her mission in her letter; that would be a dangerous thing to put
in a letter that might be accepted. She could then also provide Mat
with Traveling ability. I'm not sure how she will be able to find him,
though.
Post by N***@gmail.com
7. As Elayne will loose the windfinders now that she has the throne,
how will she hold the six black ajah still alive prisoner? Are the Kin
outside of the leadership circle strong enough (in terms of of
willpower)? Or will she send them to the rebel Aes Sedai main camp to
deal with?
One of the Kin, Berowin, has a Talent for this. She held Nynaeve, and
she said she could hold one of the Forsaken. This is yet another
reason why Elayne should have brought the Kin with her when she
confronted the Black Ajah.

-Bill E. Brooks
Christer Jacobsson
2005-11-14 08:08:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:37:58 UTC, "Bill E. Brooks"
Post by Bill E. Brooks
Post by N***@gmail.com
FAQABLES
Spoiler Space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
6. Where has Verin gone? What information in the previous few days did
she have the possibility of learning to make her think she should go
then as opposed to later to do something?
Likely Verin went to get the Horn of Valere. She and maybe Siuan are
the only ones who know where it is, after all, and somebody has to
retrieve it in book 12. This would also explain she refused to tell
Rand her mission in her letter; that would be a dangerous thing to put
in a letter that might be accepted. She could then also provide Mat
with Traveling ability. I'm not sure how she will be able to find him,
though.
Post by N***@gmail.com
7. As Elayne will loose the windfinders now that she has the throne,
how will she hold the six black ajah still alive prisoner? Are the Kin
outside of the leadership circle strong enough (in terms of of
willpower)? Or will she send them to the rebel Aes Sedai main camp to
deal with?
One of the Kin, Berowin, has a Talent for this. She held Nynaeve, and
she said she could hold one of the Forsaken. This is yet another
reason why Elayne should have brought the Kin with her when she
confronted the Black Ajah.
There should be a new section under 2.3 that lists known ter'angreals,
their properties and uses - both old intended uses and new and
unintended uses. Some ter'angreals were used for one purpose in AoL
but nowadays they are used for a totally different purpose because
the original purpose for which the ter'angreal was created are
forgotten. An example of this is the ter'dildo that robbed Elayne of
six hours worth of time and set the other girls a-giggling and red in
their faces. I *DON'T* think the original purpose of this ter'angreal
was as a Power-amplified dildo and sex toy :-) But maybe I'm not
naughty enough to imagine that such a thing was done in the AoL :-)

--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 9th Anniversary & 25th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se
Chunkawakan
Tim Bruening
2005-12-12 22:58:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:37:58 UTC, "Bill E. Brooks"
Post by Bill E. Brooks
Post by N***@gmail.com
FAQABLES
Spoiler Space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
6. Where has Verin gone? What information in the previous few days did
she have the possibility of learning to make her think she should go
then as opposed to later to do something?
Likely Verin went to get the Horn of Valere. She and maybe Siuan are
the only ones who know where it is, after all, and somebody has to
retrieve it in book 12. This would also explain she refused to tell
Rand her mission in her letter; that would be a dangerous thing to put
in a letter that might be accepted. She could then also provide Mat
with Traveling ability. I'm not sure how she will be able to find him,
though.
How would Verin equip Mat with Traveling ability?
David Snider
2005-12-13 21:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christer Jacobsson
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:37:58 UTC, "Bill E. Brooks"
Post by Bill E. Brooks
Likely Verin went to get the Horn of Valere. She and maybe Siuan are
the only ones who know where it is, after all, and somebody has to
retrieve it in book 12. This would also explain she refused to tell
Rand her mission in her letter; that would be a dangerous thing to put
in a letter that might be accepted. She could then also provide Mat
with Traveling ability. I'm not sure how she will be able to find him,
though.
How would Verin equip Mat with Traveling ability?
Assuming Verin could get the Horn out of the Tower (possible, but not
easy). She would then take the Horn to Mat and stay with him. As long
as she is with Mat, Mat can travel (because Verin can).

The Horn is most likely in a warded. So Verin would have to Travel
into the library (or other part of the Tower) unseen and then sneek
over to where the Horn is and take it. Since it's clear that Elaida
doesn't know about the Horn, it is probably right where Verin left it.
But if some other Aes Sedai knows about the Horn, or if Verin hide the
Horn in a watched store room, like the Ter'Angreal room, then it would
be impossible for her to get it.

Though I don't see how she would find Mat without running afowl of the
Seanchan.
Donald S. Crankshaw
2005-12-13 22:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Snider
Post by Christer Jacobsson
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:37:58 UTC, "Bill E. Brooks"
Post by Bill E. Brooks
Likely Verin went to get the Horn of Valere. She and maybe Siuan are
the only ones who know where it is, after all, and somebody has to
retrieve it in book 12. This would also explain she refused to tell
Rand her mission in her letter; that would be a dangerous thing to put
in a letter that might be accepted. She could then also provide Mat
with Traveling ability. I'm not sure how she will be able to find him,
though.
How would Verin equip Mat with Traveling ability?
Assuming Verin could get the Horn out of the Tower (possible, but not
easy). She would then take the Horn to Mat and stay with him. As long
as she is with Mat, Mat can travel (because Verin can).
The Horn is most likely in a warded. So Verin would have to Travel
into the library (or other part of the Tower) unseen and then sneek
over to where the Horn is and take it. Since it's clear that Elaida
doesn't know about the Horn, it is probably right where Verin left it.
But if some other Aes Sedai knows about the Horn, or if Verin hide the
Horn in a watched store room, like the Ter'Angreal room, then it would
be impossible for her to get it.
Though I don't see how she would find Mat without running afowl of the
Seanchan.
Mat's in Murandy now, not in Altara, so he's not in Seanchan territory.
As I expect him to conquer the country any battle now, I suspect Verin
will hear the rumors.

-Donald S. Crankshaw
ajr
2005-12-15 04:14:46 UTC
Permalink
In response to the idea of Ishy reducing the population by interfering
with human fertility:

I really think this isn't the case. If it were, it isn't clear why he
wouldn't be able to pull the same thing in Seanchan.
I think the first step in the process is a decline of political
entities. A system of government like the monarchical and loose feudal
systems described in Randland allows for trade within and between
national units. Governments build and maintain roads physically, their
soldiers patrol the roads so that they are safe for merchants to
travel. If you don't have to grow everything yourself you can
specialize and move beyond subsistence agriculture. Trade brings ideas
as well as goods, allowing the faster diffusion of best practices in
surprisingly simple things like planting techniques. Governments also
facilitate lending. You see some of this in Faile supporting mining
ventures and the establishment of crafts workshops in the Two Rivers in
TFoH. Even if the government isn't doing the lending themselves, by
allowing economic functioning on a regional or national level, they
create larger pools of savings for loans to be drawn on. In short,
political development allows higher population densities and
technological development. There are still people living in the places
that aren't countries on the maps, just not that many. There is no more
nation of Almoth, but there are still people living on the Almoth Plain
and on Toman Head.

Why are political entities failing? I'm not sure that political
entities were failing in any period except for the New Era (after the
War of One Hundred Years). From the Breaking to the Trolloc Wars and
from the Trolloc Wars to the War of One Hundred Years, it seems as
though there was growth and development. What is special about the New
Era is not clear. The simplest answer would be that the internecine
fighting of that last war overextended nobles resources, and they
ability to hold territory declined rather than grew. However, that was
far too long in the past to account for what happens hundreds of years
later. Also, it seems that the fading is happening more the closer we
get the present day. Even Andor recently lost the Two Rivers.

The Children of the Light are one factor. They represent a
destabilizing element that forces rulers to divert resources away from
productive uses. Conflicts between states don't seem to explain it, as
Tear and Illian seem to be the only countries that routinely go to war.
Aes Sedai as a negative influence does not seem to explain it, as their
influence is much weaker now then it was in the Free Years, or the
latter part of the After Breaking Years. The absence of Aes Sedai
influence as a positive force is one possible explanation. I don't find
it very satisfying though. There are no apparent unusual environmental
or social pressures at play, so the tendency should be toward more
complex organization, not less complex organization, if the Aes Sedai
are removed from the equation.

I see only one decent explanation: darkfriends. Creating conflict,
diverting resources, taking leadership positions and indirectly messing
things up. It is possible that the influence of darkfriends is stronger
now, though I'm not sure why that would be the case. On the other hand,
if DF influence is a constant, the decline of positive Aes Sedai
influence could be result in political decline. The AS influence has
declined due to their being fewer AS, which is due in part to less
testing; in part due to lower base rate prevalence in the population
(due to culling of men, due to the fact that most women in the
Westlands are not discovered, and so those with the spark usually die
before they can reproduce); (possible, though not clear) lower
prevalence of powerful AS, which means fewer AS living as long, meaning
fewer AS; and greater influence of the Children of the Light (and
perhaps greater hostility from the Children toward AS? Not sure about
this one).
dwn
2005-10-31 03:42:54 UTC
Permalink
re: Elayne, windfinders and BA prisoners

Holding them shouldn't be too hard, since Elayne can make a'dam. She
should also have several a'dam available from the Seanchan
sul'dam/damane prisoners (i.e. Alivia). Keeping them alive for any
length of time might be more difficult. It should be noted that
Seaine, Pevara, etc. know that Temaile Kinderode (who is one of
Elayne's prisoners) is BA.

re: Taim

It could be taken a couple ways, but I read Mishraile's outburst as
"Why should we allow Aes Sedai to take any m(ore)." This would imply
that the SAS have already taken advantage of Rand's offer to bond 47
soldiers/dedicated. I think Taim will allow Tarna's group to bond
whoever they want in order to create more conflict between Rand and the
Aes Sedai. This would fit with the "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" bit.
I doubt he'll let his own followers be bonded ("...ask who will let you
bond them") since that would reduce Taim's own power base.
Umair
2005-10-31 10:53:10 UTC
Permalink
<SNIPPED>
Post by N***@gmail.com
5. The eleven chairs at the forskaen meeting. 1. Moridin. 2. Cyndane.
3. Moghedien. 4. Aran'gar. 5. Greandal. 6. Semirhage. 7. Damendred. 8.
Messana. 9. Sammeal (if they thought him alive to give orders he is
still chosen and deserves a chair if he bothers to show up). 10.
(unknown) 11. (unknown). The list of obvious candidates are: 1.
Osan'gar recycled 2. Mazrim Taim newly raised 3. Shaidar Haran. How do
the # of chairs compare to the last chosen coffee hour?
<SNIPPED>

The phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" has been mentioned 3 times (not
exactly sure): The first time when the DO gives a direct order in the
LOC prologue to some forsaken i forgot (demandred??). Then semirhage
mentions it in the KoD prologue, and then taim mentions it in the end.

Somehow, I always thought of this phrase as a direct order from the DO
to the forsaken, and as such a circumstantial evidence that people who
know about this phrase have had a visit to Shayol Gul. Could Taim be
one of these? i.e. a newly raised Forsaken?
Aaron
2005-10-31 15:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Umair
The phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" has been mentioned 3 times (not
exactly sure): The first time when the DO gives a direct order in the
LOC prologue to some forsaken i forgot (demandred??). Then semirhage
mentions it in the KoD prologue, and then taim mentions it in the end.
Somehow, I always thought of this phrase as a direct order from the DO
to the forsaken, and as such a circumstantial evidence that people who
know about this phrase have had a visit to Shayol Gul. Could Taim be
one of these? i.e. a newly raised Forsaken?
This logic fails unless you think that Suroth is also a new Forsaken,
even though we don't have evidence of her channeling at all. Semi says
it to her...it's more than likely Forsaken say it to their main charges
every once-in-a-while.

-Aaron
Umair
2005-11-01 10:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Umair
The phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" has been mentioned 3 times (not
exactly sure): The first time when the DO gives a direct order in the
LOC prologue to some forsaken i forgot (demandred??). Then semirhage
mentions it in the KoD prologue, and then taim mentions it in the end.
Somehow, I always thought of this phrase as a direct order from the DO
to the forsaken, and as such a circumstantial evidence that people who
know about this phrase have had a visit to Shayol Gul. Could Taim be
one of these? i.e. a newly raised Forsaken?
This logic fails unless you think that Suroth is also a new Forsaken,
even though we don't have evidence of her channeling at all. Semi says
it to her...it's more than likely Forsaken say it to their main charges
every once-in-a-while.
-Aaron
Let me quote from the KOD prologue:

This time, Semirhage's laughter was so shocking that it shut off
Suroth's tears. That head of fire was thrown back, emitting great
peals of mirth. At last she regained control, wiping away tears of
flame with fiery fingers. "I see I didn't make myself clear.
Radhanan is dead, and her daughters, and her sons, and half the
Imperial Court, as well. There is no Imperial family except for Tuon.
There is no Empire. Seandar is in the hands of rioters and looters, and
so are a dozen other cities. At least fifty nobles are contending for
the throne, with armies in the field. There is war from the Aldael
Mountains to Salaking. Which is why you will be perfectly safe in
disposing of Tuon and proclaiming yourself Empress. I've even
arranged for a ship, which should arrive soon, to bring word of the
disaster." She laughed again, and said something strange. "Let the
lord of chaos rule."

Suroth doesnt say it. Semirhage does. This is Suroth's POV, and she
thinks of the phrase as something strange. She isnt familiar with it.
Infact nobody in the Randland has heard this phrase. Thats why I said
that only the Forsaken (or people who have had a meeting with the DO
might know it).
Aaron
2005-11-01 16:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Umair
Suroth doesnt say it. Semirhage does. This is Suroth's POV, and she
thinks of the phrase as something strange. She isnt familiar with it.
Infact nobody in the Randland has heard this phrase. Thats why I said
that only the Forsaken (or people who have had a meeting with the DO
might know it).
And now Suroth has heard the phrase, even though she has never met with
the DO, and is not a Forsaken. Taim could have heard it in a similar
fashion. Your quote does nothing to bolster your argument. In fact, it
shows that people *meeting* with Forsaken can hear the phrase, so it
*weakens* your argument. Which is what I said in the first place.
Sheesh.

-Aaron
Daniel Holm
2005-11-01 19:24:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Umair
Suroth doesnt say it. Semirhage does. This is Suroth's POV, and she
thinks of the phrase as something strange. She isnt familiar with it.
Infact nobody in the Randland has heard this phrase. Thats why I said
that only the Forsaken (or people who have had a meeting with the DO
might know it).
And now Suroth has heard the phrase, even though she has never met with
the DO, and is not a Forsaken. Taim could have heard it in a similar
fashion. Your quote does nothing to bolster your argument. In fact, it
shows that people *meeting* with Forsaken can hear the phrase, so it
*weakens* your argument. Which is what I said in the first place.
Sheesh.
So? It'd still only be people who came into contact with the Forsaken
who'd know the phrase. What's your point?

Taim says it, but if he found it as strange as Suroth does, why the
heck would he? And if he *didn't* find it strange, how come no one else
knows of it?

--Daniel Holm
NightBaron
2005-11-01 19:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Daniel Holm wrote:

[who says "let the Lord of Chaos rule" anyway?]
Post by Daniel Holm
Taim says it, but if he found it as strange as Suroth does, why the
heck would he? And if he *didn't* find it strange, how come no one else
knows of it?
Maybe because Demandred and/or whoever is talking to him is saying it
all the damn time, and Taim finds the phrase cool, so he's saying it
all the damn time as well. Maybe, unlike Suroth, he doesn't think it's
a weird phrase.
Aaron
2005-11-02 16:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Holm
Post by Aaron
Post by Umair
Suroth doesnt say it. Semirhage does. This is Suroth's POV, and she
thinks of the phrase as something strange. She isnt familiar with it.
Infact nobody in the Randland has heard this phrase. Thats why I said
that only the Forsaken (or people who have had a meeting with the DO
might know it).
And now Suroth has heard the phrase, even though she has never met with
the DO, and is not a Forsaken. Taim could have heard it in a similar
fashion. Your quote does nothing to bolster your argument. In fact, it
shows that people *meeting* with Forsaken can hear the phrase, so it
*weakens* your argument. Which is what I said in the first place.
Sheesh.
So? It'd still only be people who came into contact with the Forsaken
who'd know the phrase. What's your point?
Are you capable of following a discussion, Daniel? "What's [my]
point?!" Umair thinks that Taim saying "let the Lord of Chaos rule"
means Taim is probably a new Forsaken. I'm proving that it does no such
thing. Savvy?
Post by Daniel Holm
Taim says it, but if he found it as strange as Suroth does, why the
heck would he? And if he *didn't* find it strange, how come no one else
knows of it?
What do you mean "no one else knows of it?" His lackeys all laugh,
right? He's said it to them before.

Jesus Christ Almighty, Daniel. Taim may have heard it back in WH, when
Demandred told him to kill Rand, or even earlier, when he told him to
help make the BT. Taim not finding it "strange" is no proof that he's
the next goddamned Forsaken. Sheesh! There's no evidence from that damn
phrase, so get off of it!

That being said, it's altogether possible that he's the next Forsaken,
but I think it is more likely that he's just a dreadlord. I think you
need to show a bit more dedication to the DO (battles against the
Dragon and against the light), over a longer time (centuries?), before
you can become a Forsaken.

Is that better, for my "point?"
Post by Daniel Holm
--Daniel Holm
-Aaron
Umair
2005-11-02 19:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Daniel Holm
So? It'd still only be people who came into contact with the Forsaken
who'd know the phrase. What's your point?
Agreed Aaron. You cant logically derive that conclusion. Actually, it
was the first thing that came to my mind after reading the last KOD
chapter. As if RJ was implying it without giving any concrete evidence.
I still believe Taim is gonna be a forsaken soon, if he isnt one
already.
Post by Aaron
That being said, it's altogether possible that he's the next Forsaken,
but I think it is more likely that he's just a dreadlord. I think you
need to show a bit more dedication to the DO (battles against the
Dragon and against the light), over a longer time (centuries?), before
you can become a Forsaken.
Is that better, for my "point?"
Post by Daniel Holm
--Daniel Holm
-Aaron
'The world of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time' mentions how the forsaken
turned to the shadow. It also mentions somewhere that they were
selected for their strength in OP, plus additional skills/advantages
they brought to the dark side. Dedication to the shadow cause isnt a
criteria, I would say. Every forsaken seems to go his/her own way, if
not collared, and it usually results in a mighty screw-up for the bad
guys.
Emily
2005-11-03 16:10:41 UTC
Permalink
I think the possibilities of 'future Forsaken' is very interesting.
If 13 appeared after the last War of the Shadow, how can RJ sum it all
up without the possibilites of creating new ones? Although, the
Forsaken might be only in that select catagory because they happened to
bound at SG, and didn't just die like the other dreadlords. But if new
Forsaken were to be raised, Mazrim Taim would defintily have to head
the list.
Aaron
2005-11-03 16:15:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emily
I think the possibilities of 'future Forsaken' is very interesting.
If 13 appeared after the last War of the Shadow, how can RJ sum it all
up without the possibilites of creating new ones? Although, the
Forsaken might be only in that select catagory because they happened to
bound at SG, and didn't just die like the other dreadlords. But if new
Forsaken were to be raised, Mazrim Taim would defintily have to head
the list.
Possibly, but keep in mind that the War of the Shadow to which you are
referring, with LTT and the Hundred Companions coming to the Bore to
seal it at the end, is commonly *not* believed to be the point we are
at now. The point we are almost at now is where the DOs prison will be
completely resealed...no patch on the Bore. So, we're not at the same
point in the WOT, so there don't have to be 13 Forsaken. This is TG,
not the War of the Shadow.

-Aaron
Erik Wikström
2005-11-03 18:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emily
I think the possibilities of 'future Forsaken' is very interesting.
If 13 appeared after the last War of the Shadow, how can RJ sum it all
up without the possibilites of creating new ones? Although, the
Forsaken might be only in that select catagory because they happened to
bound at SG, and didn't just die like the other dreadlords. But if new
Forsaken were to be raised, Mazrim Taim would defintily have to head
the list.
I believe that the Forsaken were named as such before they were sealed
in. After all, who would be able to tell who was in SG when it was
sealed? LLT and his Hundred Companions (?) went mad when they sealed the
thing and I don't think they went about telling everyone what they saw
there. Nor do I think that they went deep enough to see who were in SG
when sealing. And lastly I believe that it's been stated earlier that
the FS were the generals or in some other way in high position back in
those days.

--
Erik Wikström
Karan Juneja
2005-11-04 07:48:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Wikström
Post by Emily
I think the possibilities of 'future Forsaken' is very interesting.
If 13 appeared after the last War of the Shadow, how can RJ sum it all
up without the possibilites of creating new ones? Although, the
Forsaken might be only in that select catagory because they happened to
bound at SG, and didn't just die like the other dreadlords. But if new
Forsaken were to be raised, Mazrim Taim would defintily have to head
the list.
I believe that the Forsaken were named as such before they were sealed
in. After all, who would be able to tell who was in SG when it was
sealed? LLT and his Hundred Companions (?) went mad when they sealed the
thing and I don't think they went about telling everyone what they saw
there. Nor do I think that they went deep enough to see who were in SG
when sealing. And lastly I believe that it's been stated earlier that
the FS were the generals or in some other way in high position back in
those days.
*nods* in the Guide (BBoBA), it makes mention of 20+ Forsaken at some
point, and that the numbers changed with time due to infighting and
others rising and gaining the blessing of the DO. The top 13 were in a
conference with the DO when LTT & the 100 'swooped'.

So yeah, nothing stopping others rising.
--
KJ
d***@hotmail.com
2005-11-11 06:55:15 UTC
Permalink
How about this for a new topic?

Why is Rand choosing Arad Doman to amass forces for Tarman Gai'don?
Jim Phillips
2005-11-15 13:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@hotmail.com
How about this for a new topic?
Why is Rand choosing Arad Doman to amass forces for Tarman Gai'don?
Because it looks like he's going to smash the Seanchan with those
forces.
--
Jim Phillips, jay pee aitch eye el el eye pee at bee see pee ell dot net
"Other than the war in Iraq, the Katrina disaster, the deficit, the CIA
leak, the torture, stopping stem cell research, homeland security, global
warming and undercutting science, we've yet to feel the negative effects of
the Bush administration" -- Bill Maher
Erik Wikström
2005-11-15 18:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Phillips
Post by d***@hotmail.com
How about this for a new topic?
Why is Rand choosing Arad Doman to amass forces for Tarman Gai'don?
Because it looks like he's going to smash the Seanchan with those
forces.
Or at least use as a threat while negotiating an alliance.

Erik Wikström
--
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure
out how to use my telephone" -- Bjarne Stroustrup
Tim Bruening
2005-12-01 01:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Phillips
Post by d***@hotmail.com
How about this for a new topic?
Why is Rand choosing Arad Doman to amass forces for Tarman Gai'don?
Because it looks like he's going to smash the Seanchan with those
forces.
I thought that he was seeking a truce with the Seanchan!
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