Bargains (Spoilers)

[Bill E. Brooks]

Spoiler space



































I do not see why Rand got so upset about the Bargain with the Tairen
rebels. What was he thinking? I thought his main consideration was
preserving the changes he made to the laws, and that was part of the
agreement. I cannot recall him ever acting this arrogantly, even
when he held Callandor. He deserved a power-spank from Cadsuane.
If the rebels swear to Darlin, who swears to Rand, how different
is that from them swearing directly to Rand?

It is odd that both Rand and the Sea Folk were unhappy about their
agreement. Somebody had to get the better of the deal, right?
But when Mat bought that razor, both he and the seller seemed happy.
Why are these two situations so different? Is Mat just more of a
smoothee than Rand?

-Bill E. Brooks

[j porter]

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Spoiler space
I do not see why Rand got so upset about the Bargain with the Tairen
rebels. What was he thinking? I thought his main consideration was
preserving the changes he made to the laws, and that was part of the
agreement. I cannot recall him ever acting this arrogantly, even
when he held Callandor. He deserved a power-spank from Cadsuane.
If the rebels swear to Darlin, who swears to Rand, how different
is that from them swearing directly to Rand?
It is odd that both Rand and the Sea Folk were unhappy about their
agreement. Somebody had to get the better of the deal, right?
But when Mat bought that razor, both he and the seller seemed happy.
Why are these two situations so different? Is Mat just more of a
smoothee than Rand?
-Bill E. Brooks

I havent gotten quite that far yet, but, the rebels swearing to Darlin does
not equal them swearing to Rand. Look at the sisters who have sworn and are
bound to their oath, they still do what they think is best unless specificly
told otherwise. If the now former rebels decide that they serve Darlin best
by quietly getting Rand out of the way, then they would probly try without
letting Darlin know. But again, I havent read that part yet.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by j porter

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Spoiler space
I do not see why Rand got so upset about the Bargain with the Tairen
rebels. What was he thinking? I thought his main consideration was
preserving the changes he made to the laws, and that was part of the
agreement. I cannot recall him ever acting this arrogantly, even
when he held Callandor. He deserved a power-spank from Cadsuane.
If the rebels swear to Darlin, who swears to Rand, how different
is that from them swearing directly to Rand?
It is odd that both Rand and the Sea Folk were unhappy about their
agreement. Somebody had to get the better of the deal, right?
But when Mat bought that razor, both he and the seller seemed happy.
Why are these two situations so different? Is Mat just more of a
smoothee than Rand?
-Bill E. Brooks

I havent gotten quite that far yet, but, the rebels swearing to Darlin does
not equal them swearing to Rand. Look at the sisters who have sworn and are
bound to their oath, they still do what they think is best unless specificly
told otherwise. If the now former rebels decide that they serve Darlin best
by quietly getting Rand out of the way, then they would probly try without
letting Darlin know. But again, I havent read that part yet.

Like Faile killing Masima without telling Perrin.

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Spoiler space
I do not see why Rand got so upset about the Bargain with the Tairen
rebels. What was he thinking? I thought his main consideration was
preserving the changes he made to the laws, and that was part of the
agreement. I cannot recall him ever acting this arrogantly, even
when he held Callandor. He deserved a power-spank from Cadsuane.
If the rebels swear to Darlin, who swears to Rand, how different
is that from them swearing directly to Rand?

They deny the Dragon Reborn, and deny Tarmon Gai'don being on the doorstep.

Also, it lengthens the chain of command. They will not feel obligated to
take orders from Rand. Rand now has to order Darlin to order the lords
to do stuff.

Post by Bill E. Brooks
It is odd that both Rand and the Sea Folk were unhappy about their
agreement. Somebody had to get the better of the deal, right?
But when Mat bought that razor, both he and the seller seemed happy.
Why are these two situations so different? Is Mat just more of a
smoothee than Rand?

Probably. Of course, Masema scores points compared to Rand, at times.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Spoiler space
I do not see why Rand got so upset about the Bargain with the Tairen
rebels. What was he thinking? I thought his main consideration was
preserving the changes he made to the laws, and that was part of the
agreement. I cannot recall him ever acting this arrogantly, even
when he held Callandor. He deserved a power-spank from Cadsuane.
If the rebels swear to Darlin, who swears to Rand, how different
is that from them swearing directly to Rand?

They deny the Dragon Reborn, and deny Tarmon Gai'don being on the doorstep.
Also, it lengthens the chain of command. They will not feel obligated to
take orders from Rand. Rand now has to order Darlin to order the lords
to do stuff.

All too true, but my question is, is that sufficient reason for Rand
to explode in anger? I mean, if he didn't trust Darlin at least
a little, he wouldn't have appointed him stewart. It just seems to me
that Rand is just being hard to please for no reason. Perhaps Rand
came to his senses after his tirade, or perhaps he has just decided
that "A bargain is a bargain". I think he should at least be more
pleased with this bargain than the one with the Sea Folk.

-Bill E. Brooks

[Matt Schroeder]

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Spoiler space
If the rebels swear to Darlin, who swears to Rand, how different
is that from them swearing directly to Rand?

Also, it lengthens the chain of command. They will not feel obligated to
take orders from Rand. Rand now has to order Darlin to order the lords
to do stuff.

Lengthening the chain of command does allow for wiggle room through
which one could avoid a number of orders through bureaucratic hoop
jumping, but it does not mean that they don't have to take orders from
Rand directly. A private cannot disobey a direct order from a battalion
commander simply because the BC did not put the order through the
soldier's company commander and platoon leader. This actually makes
ignoring direct orders from Rand more difficult as there would now be
two people (Rand and Darlin) with direct power over them beating them
on the head to do what they were told. It does reduce the frequency
they will have to deal with Rand directly, though, so if that is what
you meant, then you are correct.

cheers,
matt.

[e***@hotmail.com]

Post by Bill E. Brooks
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I do not see why Rand got so upset about the Bargain with the Tairen
rebels. What was he thinking? I thought his main consideration was
preserving the changes he made to the laws, and that was part of the
agreement. I cannot recall him ever acting this arrogantly, even
when he held Callandor. He deserved a power-spank from Cadsuane.
If the rebels swear to Darlin, who swears to Rand, how different
is that from them swearing directly to Rand?

I do not know necessarily that this was the issue. Rand seemed
initially furious that some of those he had sent to Cairhein to keep
them away from their powerbase and away from fomenting dissent had now
returned to their powerbase in Tear.

Rand knows he can't trust them, and now that they are subject to Darlin
he cannot necessarily order them away from Tear. Also Darlin gets
promoted to King. Does that still make him simply Rand's regent and
subject to Rand? Or does it make him like Elayne with complete
autonomy?

Post by Bill E. Brooks
It is odd that both Rand and the Sea Folk were unhappy about their
agreement. Somebody had to get the better of the deal, right?
But when Mat bought that razor, both he and the seller seemed happy.
Why are these two situations so different? Is Mat just more of a
smoothee than Rand?

Mat wanted a horse. He was willing to part with money within a certain
range. He achieved both fo these goals. The horse seller was willing to
part with a horse for money within a certain range. Both met their
requirements.

Rand wanted peace, and a unified Tear to stand behind him at TG. What
he got was his regent promoted to King, which may make him less
reliable, and all the troublemakers and plotters returned to Tear,
destroying the unity and removing a once stalwart ally. Rand wanted the
laws maintained.

The rebels wanted back to their old places of power and they got it.
Sure the laws will be maintained, at least until Rand dies. You know
these Lords can wait that long. And they liked the old laws so why
wouldn't they changethem back? To get the new laws maintained beyond
Rand's death he needed to raise new Lords who actually believed in
justice.

Rand got shafted on the deal. He could just have dropped his army on
the rebels and slaughtered them all. But he has a time constraint and
is focused on saving the world above all else (see Mins summary of
losing a hand). The rebels negotiated from a position of absolute
weakness (Rand has how many nations behind him now, plus the Ashamen
plus the bonded sisters) yet relative strength (because they don't
really care if the world lives or dies if they cannot be rulers). And
Rand had to give rule back to the likes of these? No wonder he is a
little ticked off.

Post by Bill E. Brooks
-Bill E. Brooks

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by e***@hotmail.com

Post by Bill E. Brooks
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I do not see why Rand got so upset about the Bargain with the Tairen
rebels. What was he thinking? I thought his main consideration was
preserving the changes he made to the laws, and that was part of the
agreement. I cannot recall him ever acting this arrogantly, even
when he held Callandor. He deserved a power-spank from Cadsuane.
If the rebels swear to Darlin, who swears to Rand, how different
is that from them swearing directly to Rand?

I do not know necessarily that this was the issue. Rand seemed
initially furious that some of those he had sent to Cairhein to keep
them away from their powerbase and away from fomenting dissent had now
returned to their powerbase in Tear.
Rand knows he can't trust them, and now that they are subject to Darlin
he cannot necessarily order them away from Tear. Also Darlin gets
promoted to King. Does that still make him simply Rand's regent and
subject to Rand? Or does it make him like Elayne with complete
autonomy?

Post by Bill E. Brooks
It is odd that both Rand and the Sea Folk were unhappy about their
agreement. Somebody had to get the better of the deal, right?
But when Mat bought that razor, both he and the seller seemed happy.
Why are these two situations so different? Is Mat just more of a
smoothee than Rand?

Rand wanted peace, and a unified Tear to stand behind him at TG. What
he got was his regent promoted to King, which may make him less
reliable, and all the troublemakers and plotters returned to Tear,
destroying the unity and removing a once stalwart ally. Rand wanted the
laws maintained.
The rebels wanted back to their old places of power and they got it.
Sure the laws will be maintained, at least until Rand dies. You know
these Lords can wait that long. And they liked the old laws so why
wouldn't they changethem back? To get the new laws maintained beyond
Rand's death he needed to raise new Lords who actually believed in
justice.
Rand got shafted on the deal. He could just have dropped his army on
the rebels and slaughtered them all. But he has a time constraint and
is focused on saving the world above all else (see Mins summary of
losing a hand). The rebels negotiated from a position of absolute
weakness (Rand has how many nations behind him now, plus the Ashamen
plus the bonded sisters) yet relative strength (because they don't
really care if the world lives or dies if they cannot be rulers). And
Rand had to give rule back to the likes of these? No wonder he is a
little ticked off.

You may well be right that this was Rand's thinking when he got angry.
I still think he has at least marginal control over these Highs Lords
though Darlin. Do you think Darlin is going to stop listening to him
entirely?

-Bill E. Brooks

[Scott Carlson]

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Spoiler space
I do not see why Rand got so upset about the Bargain with the Tairen
rebels. What was he thinking? I thought his main consideration was
preserving the changes he made to the laws, and that was part of the
agreement. I cannot recall him ever acting this arrogantly, even
when he held Callandor. He deserved a power-spank from Cadsuane.
If the rebels swear to Darlin, who swears to Rand, how different
is that from them swearing directly to Rand?
It is odd that both Rand and the Sea Folk were unhappy about their
agreement. Somebody had to get the better of the deal, right?
But when Mat bought that razor, both he and the seller seemed happy.
Why are these two situations so different? Is Mat just more of a
smoothee than Rand?
-Bill E. Brooks

One could argue that Mat and the stable owner had more realistic
expectations on that bargain than Rand and the Sea Folk, both of which
don't really want to give up anything. It would be akin to Mat thinking
he could get away with buying the razor for a few silver pennies, and
the horse owner thinking he could get Estates and a title out of the
deal. If that's the mindset they went in with, both would have walked
away unhappy, much like the Sea Folk bargain. The key is, Rand wants
complete obedience, and the Sea Folk think that Rand's destined to serve
*them*, or near enough. So when you get it worked out that they're
almost sorta-kinda equals, neither's gonna be happy.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by Scott Carlson

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Spoiler space
It is odd that both Rand and the Sea Folk were unhappy about their
agreement. Somebody had to get the better of the deal, right?

The key is, Rand wants
complete obedience, and the Sea Folk think that Rand's destined to serve
*them*, or near enough. So when you get it worked out that they're
almost sorta-kinda equals, neither's gonna be happy.

Yeah, good point, and both are ridiculously hard to please.

-Bill E. Brooks