OK, I Read KoD ! (SPOILERS)

[ioanna]

There are spoilers here..

.
.
.
.
.
.
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

I finally received KoD and read almost all of it. I started from
chapter 2 and then started skipping the non-Mat parts. After I finished
with Mat I went on with Perrin's thread (I hate it but knew that it is
finally resolved, so I gathered my courage), then
Rand's, then the Aes Sedai/Egwene bits, (knew that not much happens
there, but I used to like Ewgwene..), also the Seafolk chapter (I was
about to skip it, but then Logain appeared (one of my favourite
characters) so I read on (but I did not understnad what happened with
the Amayar bit..?), and finally I was left with Elayne.. (eeeww..) I
know she finally takes the Lion thrown, but even so I have not read
that part yet... (even resolving the succession is not enough
inducement after all those baths, dresses and teas). I just read the
Elayne/BA part ..

Well ...

For me, the best chapter is the prologue ! (just IMO). Having read that
some time ago my expectations of KoD had risen significantly. I
thought: "At last ! this is more like it!" However, for me the rest of
KoD was not up to its prologue standard, and since I had expectations
(or at least, hopes) after reading the prologue, I was somewhat
disappointed. OK, for me the book was better than CoT, but that is not
saying much... (I hated CoT). I liked KoD as much as tPoD and WH which
for me are 2nd least favoutites after CoT. Well, at least this book had
a great prologue..

Now, plot-wise..

Rand: not much. The semirhage trap is sprung, (with Semi captured) but
that is not much progress! And the semi encounter was somewhat of an
anticlimax for me.. I expected more.. I don't know, somehow it didn't
have the same feeling as earlier books (eg. earlier encounters with
Forsaken, in this case. They were much more exciting!). And why, may I
ask is Semi still alive ?? I think RJ (and not just Rand) has a problem
with killing women !(I mean with the good guys/gals klling women). The
male forsaken were always killed on the spot in earlier books. Now we
have almost run out of men forsaken (going through the 2nd
round/reincarnations), but the female ones are all alive and well (no
one has the guts to kill them!) Better have them as prisoners ? (as if
its easy..? see Mog!.) But why spare them ? For Rahvin, Be'lal,
Ishamael, Aginor, Belthamel noone (good guys) considered that
possibility. They were killed. (Shoot first, ask questions later). Why
spare all women and just keep them prisoners, so that they can later
escape and cause more trouble? A good forsaken is a dead forsaken.
(plus Tarmon Gaidon is approaching, remember? All the more reason to
kill any forsaken we get our hands on!). I remember the good old times
in the earlier books.. 1 book, at least 1 (male) forsaken down... Ok
some were resurrected, but Rand (or Somestha, Moiraine etc) had no
qualms about killing them in the first opportunity!

There were 7 men 5 women initially, right? So after killing at least 1
per book, early in the series, we have now just 3 men (Demandred and
Moridin and Arangar) of which two were already killed once, (so 6 of
the 7 male forsaken were killed at one point (86%) but *none* of the 5
female (0 out of 5 killed ie 0%). And Balthamel? reincarnated as a
woman, is safe now...

Mat: I like Mat. I even liked Tuon. In the last few books these were
the only parts I enjoyed reading (most of the rest were somewhat like a
chore). But now.. About 6 chapters to tell stuff that could be said in
just 2... I felt the pace was boring, to the extent that Tuon and Mat
were starting to get on my nerves.. And I had read that this plot
counts as one of the 'resolved' ones. But how ? it is not resolved for
me ! Mat was half married to Tuon, and now he is completely so. That is
progress in a sense.
But if we need 1 whole book for half a marriage, and count that as
"plot progress", the pace is too slow for me!. The point is Tarmon
Gaidon and the Dragon's forces (not Mat's marital status!) So for me,
"plot thread resolved" meant Seanchean (ie Tuon's) forces becoming
Rand's forces. (Since Tuon's husband is Mat's friend). But no such
understanding/ agreement is reached. They are still enemies. I wanted
all the Seanchean forces to be (officially and acknowldeged) under
Mat's command and in the service of the Dragon reborn. No such thing !

Perrin: The long awaited rescue finally happens! Thank God! The good
thing (and that IS progress in the grander scheme of things) is that
the Shaido are no more. Lots killed, the rest releasing the wetlander
gaishan and return to the Waste! So the "Shaido issue" is resolved !
But what was horrible for me, was Perrin killing Rolan and the other 2
Aiel who have helped Faile, in cold blood! And not much (or anything !)
is made of it! Faile being happy to be rescued and reunited with
Perrin, as that is the most important thing and nothing else matters !
Out of sight out of mind ? Not even that ! Faile's rescuer's corpse
lies a couple of feet next to her, but everything is perfectly fine
with her ! (No : "but perrin he is one of the good guys. he helped me,
you shouldn't have killed him"). No! not even that! No guilt, no
remorse, no nothing ! I had no particular liking for Rolan but he was a
decent guy (apart from his bad taste : see "he liked Faile"). And
Faile's stupidity in handing Galina the Rod and then instead of
escaping getting herself and her followers trapped and about to die.
Well done Faile!.

And what is deal with Galina and the Rod ? Ok it is resolved with
Galina going to the waste etc, but now, I am not clear on why exactly
she wanted the rod in the first place. From my vague memory, I had the
impression that getting her hands on the Rod would be her salvation
(and I had not thought further than that). I thought "she gets the Rod,
she is home free ". But, she gets the rod and as far as I understand
she didn't do anything with it. (no channeling to kill Faile & co, and
Therava captures her again very easily). So she couldn't channel. So
she was still bound.. But why be so silly ? Unless, she can't channel
since she is bound (can not channel without Therava's permission) and
the Rod is a ter'angreal needing the one power to work... (chicken and
egg situation..)But then, why did she want it so badly in the first
place ? Was she always planning to find an accomplice (eg a BA sister,
after she escaped) to do the channeling (and hence
unbounding/releasing) for her ? But isn't that far-fetched and risky ?
She would have to find someone she really trusted for that task.

Nynaeve : I had read about Nyn doing something important/memorable...
eehm.. WHAT is that ? letting Lan go to Malkier? Sorry, I did not
think that was such a big deal (just a tiny detail). And what was Lan
planning to do ? (Discounting Nyn's actions to get him support which he
is not aware of.) Go to the Blight, kill say, 4 trollocs and then get
himslef killed ? As a mini battle, "appetizer" /preview to the Last One
? Great help that would be! Although he has a point : the borderlanders
are warriors always fighting the shadow, and keeping the rest of
Randland safe from invasions from the blight. So, of course, when the
last Battle is approaching, all kings with their advisors, and their
armes have left! (They found the perfect time to abandon their post!!)
To leave the borderlands defenceless! ? Great ! The thing would be to
convince them to go back (and hence do something actually useful!)
rather than Lan fighting in the Blight alone !

Elayne: What stupidity to go just 4 strong in the house that is the BA
nest ! And Elayne KNOWS about Liandrin's 13 ! She was part of the
initial BA hunt, so 13 minus 2? (captured/ killed) Elayne knows there
are about 11 of them *somewhere*. So when Hark 'visited' them there
happened to be 2 there. OK, so that means that it is certain none of
the other 7 will make an appearance! Well done Elayne! And even when
ambushing the 2 and shielding them, noone (she or Vandene) is supposed
to look at the door (in Case!! someone else comes up! No, all of us
lets just turn our backs to the door..!) yes, that is the way to ambush
and arrest suspects! Present your back to any possible attackers! And
noone from her team (eg warders) to watch if anyone else approaches the
house and give a signal in that case.. ! It was a perfect example of
how NOT to do things.. I did not read further in Elayne's thread, but
she probably takes a bath, dresses and haves some tea (or goat's milk?)
to recover from the night's adventure, I guess..

By the way, surpise that Careane rather than Sareitha is the BA with
Elayne!. After mentioning that Adeleas murderer is a BA (not kin,
windfinder) and then Sareitha behaving very suspiciously.. RJ was
pulling our leg. It seems that Sareitha was a red herring ! (Very
unfair of him ! :) I mean surpises are all well and good, but how is
Sareitha's suspicious behaviour to be accounted for, other than "it was
on purpose just to make her look guilty" ?).

And Birgitte.. I am out of patience with her ! She joins my LFC lists
(Least Favourite characters, headed by Faile of course!:) ) after how
she saved Elayne. What use are soldiers against BA ? None AT ALL! You
need channelers girl! So to get soldiers there, just to use them as
balefire fodder, is silly and horrible! They didn't do anything (as he
KNEW beforehand) other than have 500-600 of them KILLED! for nothing!
Oh, I forget... supposedly the massacre is to be used to induce
Chanelle's compassion (the human sacrifices then!) and convince her to
fight fire with fire (ie one Power with one Power). I was not convinced
AT ALL. The same arguments (very short and straigforward) used while
the massacre takes place could have been used *before* departure:
"Chanelle, this doesn't not violate the bargain, these are BAs. You
should use one Power to save anyone from DFs, and on top of that
without Elayne, there is no bargain." Simple.. But of course we had to
have some sort of "battle" .. Birgitte's 'battle (and even Mat's)
where unneccessary for me. They didn't make sense! Perrin's was OK. I
am not bloodthirsty, but I enjoy a good battle. But it has to make
sense, be reasonable. Like in the earlier books.. Those were great !
But here most battles felt to me 'forced', sort of "we must have battle
scenes in the book, and a high body count" but we forgot to find a
sensible and beleivable reason for them...

And what is the deal with Pevara and Taim ? Isn't he aware of the deal
Narishma presented to the rebels ? the 47 Ashaman (to even the numbers)
are already offered to the rebels. Why doesn't he say so to Pevara? He
does say that AS are bonded by Ashaman, so that is not a secret.. Is he
not aware of Rand/Harishma offer (that woould be strange) or does he
just 'forget' to mention it to Pevara, for his own reasons.. ?


Bottom line..

Mat could have used the same amount of chapters to get command of all
the Seanchean forces. The borderland forces (although I don't know if
anything happens to them in Elayne's plot thread! :) ) should have
returned north, and be under Lan's command, Masema and co should have
been completely eliminated (unless the remaining are never heard of
again), Perrin & co should have met with Galad's forces, putting Galad
and whitecloaks under Rand (with a nice encounter between Rand and his
only living relative), Galad should have made Berelain's acquaintance
(and let things progress form there..), Egwene should have met Gawyn,
resolved the "he did not kill your mother issue", and bonded him,
Halima should have been killed (1 more forsaken should have been down
and out !- And HOW was she recognised as murderer because of Cabriana
?????), Maighdin should have been revealed as Morgase (with the news
taken to her children, Rand and everyone else concerned) and got
married to Tallavnor .. just a few very *simple* things that could have
happened in this book .. that *must* happen at some point. And if they
could not fit in this book, however are they going to fit in book 12
(only one more book!) and fit Tarmon Gaidon there as well ?? Answer.. :
many of them will be left unresolved. A pity !!! (eg Morgase alive,
Morgase/Tallavnor, Galad-Rand, Gawyn/Egwene I fear will be left
unresolved after all the trouble we went in the first 7 books to set up
the circunstances for these encounters..) Since Galad appeared in the
prologue, I had hopes that at least his part would be mentioned again
in the book - at least let him meet Berelain.. But it is not to be, I
am afraid. The book could be 1/2 in length according to its "content
value" for me ... Only the Shaido are actually resolved (and Elayne's
throne, but as this should have hhappened 4 books back, it doesn't
really count for me..:) ) At least we get more details and names for
the Seafolk, a couple more AS names, plus Ashaman/AS bonded pairs ..

Rand again is almost absent (a pity..! I used to like him, but I have
almost forgotten who he is by now... In CoT as well he was barely
mentioned). Being curious about who is the main character in this
series after all, I calculated some POV statistics for the
books, which can be found here

http://ioanna.brinkster.net/as/WoTbooks

(Rand comes out on top after all, but this is mostly because of the
first 2 books..)

[Oliver Daniels]

Ioanna! You're either 15! Or American!* Otherwise, what IS it with you
and those damned exclamations!?!!!!

I'm sorry but that was a poor review that adds almost nothing to the
debates taking place in this group. The way you read the book almost
doesn't bear commenting upon. Except to wonder why you even bothered.

Criticism aside, you do raise an interesting point about what was, for
me, the main reason the quality of WoT nosedived after LoC: Rand's ever
diminishing presence in the books. My enjoyment of the series
diminished correspondingly. Although any section with Mat has always
been a joy to read. Easily the most likeable and amusing character IMO.

But I was frustrated to see how little Rand was in KoD (although
obviously it was a massive improvement on CoT). Even so, KoD was far,
far better than its predecessor and a much more enjoyable read than
aPoD and WH too.

Fortunately, even Jordan can't avoid writing mostly about the principal
character in the last book. (Can he? Please God.)

Anyhow, I'm certain history will judge that where RJ went - massively -
wrong was with the huge (and hugely unnecessary) amounts of time he
spent on machinations concerning Egwene, Elayne and in the White Tower.
Oh, and with Perrin as soon as he left Cairhien. The only word I can
think of for their sections is 'interminable'.

Oliver

*Just joking, my fine Yankee friends :-)

[ioanna]

Post by Oliver Daniels
Ioanna! You're either 15! Or American!* Otherwise, what IS it with you
and those damned exclamations!?!!!!

Well, I am neither 15 or American. I am sorry if you thought I used too
many exclamation marks.

Post by Oliver Daniels
I'm sorry but that was a poor review that adds almost nothing to the
debates taking place in this group.

I did not write a 'review'. A review would be something different. I
just commented on the parts that stood out for me. And some of them I
did not like (it is just personal taste after all) plus others I was
not sure I understood what happened. I thought that was allowed and no
one *has* to read it, if they don't like what I have written. So, I was
not imposing on anyone's time. Or so I thought! But it seems I was
wrong.

Post by Oliver Daniels
The way you read the book almost
doesn't bear commenting upon. Except to wonder why you even bothered.

Why I bothered to read the book ? (because I have invested too much
time and effort to read the previous ones to give up now, and I hoped
that this book would be enjoyable. And one has to read the book in
order to decide whether they liked it or not..) Or why I bothered
writing what I thought about it ? Well, I felt like writing about it,
and I am sorry if you found my post not worth reading. I never claimed
or even thought that people have to read it though ! You (and everyone
else) can skip reading it. I do not think that all people read all
posts (and the whole of each post if they find them uninteresting/
boring) anyway. It is perfectly acceptable isn't it ? And then why did
you bother commenting on my post ?

Post by Oliver Daniels
Criticism aside, you do raise an interesting point about what was, for
me, the main reason the quality of WoT nosedived after LoC: Rand's ever
diminishing presence in the books. My enjoyment of the series
diminished correspondingly. Although any section with Mat has always
been a joy to read. Easily the most likeable and amusing character IMO.

Yes, the series was Rand's to begin with, then he shared it with other
people, and then he slowly started to disappear..

If other people made up for his abscene it would be ok, though. I
personally like Mat, (but not Perrin) and I liked Egwene (up to the
point she became Amyrlin) and I liked Avie (up to the point she met
Elayne) etc.

Post by Oliver Daniels
But I was frustrated to see how little Rand was in KoD (although
obviously it was a massive improvement on CoT).

Yes, I was also disappointed. I mean, last I heard he was the Dragon
Reborn, wasn't he ? And he has to save the world etc. So I would like
to see more of how he will go about it..

Post by Oliver Daniels
Even so, KoD was far,
far better than its predecessor and a much more enjoyable read than
aPoD and WH too.
Fortunately, even Jordan can't avoid writing mostly about the principal
character in the last book. (Can he? Please God.)

What you say makes perfect sense. (Rand must reassert himslef in the
last book). However, I think it is not *completely impossible* for RJ
to have Rand fight DO or whatever just in Book12 epilogue.

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Oliver Daniels
Ioanna! You're either 15! Or American!* Otherwise, what IS it with you
and those damned exclamations!?!!!!
I'm sorry but that was a poor review that adds almost nothing to the
debates taking place in this group. The way you read the book almost
doesn't bear commenting upon. Except to wonder why you even bothered.

Wow. Move over, David Chapman.

Given the near total separation of the various characters' plotlines,
her way of reading makes sense in a way. Although Tuon's chapter(s?)
should be read along with Mat's, of course.

But yes, I'd appreciate restraint with exclamation points.

Post by Oliver Daniels
Criticism aside, you do raise an interesting point about what was, for
me, the main reason the quality of WoT nosedived after LoC: Rand's ever
diminishing presence in the books. My enjoyment of the series
diminished correspondingly. Although any section with Mat has always
been a joy to read. Easily the most likeable and amusing character IMO.

Mat in charge of the Band, or travelling with some men, yeah, I love it.

Mat in Valan Luca's Fleeing Circus, not so much. In fact, this was
horrible, worse even than Perrin themed chapters. Worse than ELAYNE
themed chapters!

Post by Oliver Daniels
Fortunately, even Jordan can't avoid writing mostly about the principal
character in the last book. (Can he? Please God.)

It'd be an interesting trick...

"Word had reached the Tarasin Palace. It was all very well for the
Dragon Reborn to get himself killed on the slopes of Shayol Ghul, but
Jussanada Gel had her mistress' clothes to clean, and that was that.
Such fine clothes, too, like this fine dress of red silk slashed with
cream with gold scrollwork across the shoulders, and a drooping neckline
that would expose her formidable bosom quite indecently. Her cheeks grew
crimson as she thought of wearing [...]"

Post by Oliver Daniels
Anyhow, I'm certain history will judge that where RJ went - massively -
wrong was with the huge (and hugely unnecessary) amounts of time he
spent on machinations concerning Egwene, Elayne and in the White Tower.

The Egwene bits in KoD are nice. Someone who acts like a grownup, who'da
thunk it. She does the right things, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS! Woohoo!

[ioanna]

Frank van Schie wrote:

<snip>

Post by Frank van Schie
Given the near total separation of the various characters' plotlines,
her way of reading makes sense in a way. Although Tuon's chapter(s?)
should be read along with Mat's, of course.

Yes, I meant reading the 'plot threads' separately. So when I said
Mat's parts I meant Tuon's and Furyk's as well. Similarly Galina's and
Faile's I read along with Perin's, all the AS together (Elaida, Egwene,
Romanda) etc .. I didn't know beforehand if any of them intermingle.
(But I thought it unlikely.) It seems Aviendha (with Elayne) ends up in
Arad Doman (so Rand has his hand in it?) and with my 'erratic' reading,
I missed that. Other than, I think the main plot threads where pretty
much separate.

Post by Frank van Schie
But yes, I'd appreciate restraint with exclamation points.

OK, I will keep that in mind..

Post by Frank van Schie
The Egwene bits in KoD are nice. Someone who acts like a grownup, who'da
thunk it. She does the right things, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS! Woohoo!

Yes, Egwene parts were nice. I started liking her again ! But it was
just one chapter (plus the prologue part), I would have liked a bit
more.

[Zack G]

Post by Frank van Schie
The Egwene bits in KoD are nice. Someone who acts like a grownup, who'da
thunk it. She does the right things, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS! Woohoo!

Speaking of acting like a grownup, has Jordan completely lost touch as
to how adults generally conduct themselves? Obviously, it is fantasy
and he can make up customs as he sees fit, but why, oh why, is there so
much spanking going on? It's happened often enough throughout the
series, but now EVERYBODY is spanking or being spanked, and seriously,
that's just not my thing.

And on a semi-tangent: If you were Silviana, could you really beat
Egwene for about half of every day, plus Alviarin and regular flow of
Novices? The woman must be exhausted physically, must less mentally.

--
ZG

[Rajiv Mote]

Zack G wrote:
<SNIP>

Post by Zack G
And on a semi-tangent: If you were Silviana, could you really beat
Egwene for about half of every day, plus Alviarin and regular flow of
Novices? The woman must be exhausted physically, must less mentally.

In the next book, Silviana should certainly visit the Academy in
Cairhien and commission one of the inventors to craft the Tower
Spank-O-Matic, capable of automatically slippering dozens of novices at
once. This will be all the more urgent given all the new novices -- of
all ages -- the rebels will be bringing to the reunited Tower.

Or perhaps Elayne could copy and modify the ter'angreal used for
Accepted testing, to send any woman who enters into a "Story Of O"
reenactment.

Better discipline through technology.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Rajiv Mote
<SNIP>

Post by Zack G
And on a semi-tangent: If you were Silviana, could you really beat
Egwene for about half of every day, plus Alviarin and regular flow of
Novices? The woman must be exhausted physically, must less mentally.

In the next book, Silviana should certainly visit the Academy in
Cairhien and commission one of the inventors to craft the Tower
Spank-O-Matic, capable of automatically slippering dozens of novices at
once. This will be all the more urgent given all the new novices -- of
all ages -- the rebels will be bringing to the reunited Tower.

Bravo!

Post by Rajiv Mote
Or perhaps Elayne could copy and modify the ter'angreal used for
Accepted testing, to send any woman who enters into a "Story Of O"
reenactment.

[a***@gmail.com]

I had a re-read about a year ago, and it's all over the books. The
moment you've any sort of a women-headed society, you get spanking.
For some reason, the men don't get spanked at _all_.

Beyond that, the comment on Silviana just KILLED me.

[Jasper Janssen]

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:36:16 GMT, Zack G <***@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:


SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER

Post by Zack G
And on a semi-tangent: If you were Silviana, could you really beat
Egwene for about half of every day, plus Alviarin and regular flow of
Novices? The woman must be exhausted physically, must less mentally.

God, yes. That was going through my mind all that plotline -- Silviana has
to be falling down on her feet.

Jasper

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Zack G

Post by Frank van Schie
The Egwene bits in KoD are nice. Someone who acts like a grownup, who'da
thunk it. She does the right things, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS! Woohoo!

Speaking of acting like a grownup, has Jordan completely lost touch as
to how adults generally conduct themselves? Obviously, it is fantasy
and he can make up customs as he sees fit, but why, oh why, is there so
much spanking going on? It's happened often enough throughout the
series, but now EVERYBODY is spanking or being spanked, and seriously,
that's just not my thing.
And on a semi-tangent: If you were Silviana, could you really beat
Egwene for about half of every day, plus Alviarin and regular flow of
Novices? The woman must be exhausted physically, must less mentally.

If she did not do so, she would be fired.

[Starvid]

Post by Frank van Schie
It'd be an interesting trick...
"Word had reached the Tarasin Palace. It was all very well for the
Dragon Reborn to get himself killed on the slopes of Shayol Ghul, but
Jussanada Gel had her mistress' clothes to clean, and that was that.
Such fine clothes, too, like this fine dress of red silk slashed with
cream with gold scrollwork across the shoulders, and a drooping neckline
that would expose her formidable bosom quite indecently. Her cheeks grew
crimson as she thought of wearing [...]"

Ahahaha! I laughed so hard i cried! :-D Why is RJ so obsessed with
womens clothing?

Post by Frank van Schie
And on a semi-tangent: If you were Silviana, could you really beat
Egwene for about half of every day, plus Alviarin and regular flow of
Novices? The woman must be exhausted physically, must less mentally.
ZG

And why is the man so obsessed with spanking? This latest book is
nothing but womens clothing and spanking. Were the other books like
this?



PS. This is my first message so if I mess up somehow you know why.

[Starvid]

And of course, all women have giant bosoms and are "stunningly
beatiful".

[Aaron]

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by Oliver Daniels
Ioanna! You're either 15! Or American!* Otherwise, what IS it with you
and those damned exclamations!?!!!!
I'm sorry but that was a poor review that adds almost nothing to the
debates taking place in this group. The way you read the book almost
doesn't bear commenting upon. Except to wonder why you even bothered.

Wow. Move over, David Chapman.
Given the near total separation of the various characters' plotlines,
her way of reading makes sense in a way. Although Tuon's chapter(s?)
should be read along with Mat's, of course.

I kind of thought he meant how she doesn't seem to "get" a lot of the
subtler things, and some of the obvious ones as well. I'll respond to
her post, because I do feel she deserves a response, but here's an
example: she doesn't seem to understand the part about Lan. She thinks
he's going to run off into the blight and get killed after killing a
few shadowspawn, alone. Somehow, she missed the part where Nynaeve made
him promise to go with any who wanted to tag along, and then how she
was Travelling from city to city making sure plenty will ask to tag
along. Kind of changes the whole scene when you pay attention to that
part, right? But she missed it.

-Aaron

[ioanna]

Post by Aaron

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by Oliver Daniels
Ioanna! You're either 15! Or American!* Otherwise, what IS it with you
and those damned exclamations!?!!!!
I'm sorry but that was a poor review that adds almost nothing to the
debates taking place in this group. The way you read the book almost
doesn't bear commenting upon. Except to wonder why you even bothered.

Wow. Move over, David Chapman.
Given the near total separation of the various characters' plotlines,
her way of reading makes sense in a way. Although Tuon's chapter(s?)
should be read along with Mat's, of course.

I kind of thought he meant how she doesn't seem to "get" a lot of the
subtler things, and some of the obvious ones as well. I'll respond to
her post, because I do feel she deserves a response, but here's an
example: she doesn't seem to understand the part about Lan. She thinks
he's going to run off into the blight and get killed after killing a
few shadowspawn, alone. Somehow, she missed the part where Nynaeve made
him promise to go with any who wanted to tag along, and then how she
was Travelling from city to city making sure plenty will ask to tag
along. Kind of changes the whole scene when you pay attention to that
part, right? But she missed it.

I am not sure whether you are referring to my reading things out of
order, when you mention Lan's promise. I read that along with Rand's
parts (since they are part of the same plot thread) and it was not that
subtle that I missed it. (I am sure I have missed many other stuff that
are more subtle, but Nyn's PoV was pretty short and straightforward.
And with no irrelevant details about people's clothes etc. I liked
it!). But, I just meant that when Lan decided to go to the Blight, he
meant to do so alone. (for me, a not very useful and actually suicidal
mission). The fact that Nyn came up with a plan (get Lan's promise and
then go to recruit volunteers) is beside the point, when thinking about
Lan's decision. He didn't know, nor could he guess what Nyn would do.
He was planning to go alone. It turns out that he won't be alone, since
because of Nyn, he will be with a small (?) army at his back after all.
Much better this way. Very sensible of Nyn to do what she did (get his
promise, then motivate potential Lan followers). But Lan didn't know
that, when he decided to go to the blight. That is why I criticised his
decision. I was referring to his reasoning, not the actual outcome,
since there will be Nyn's reinforcements. Sorry if I didn't make clear
what I meant in my previous post. And I very much sympathised with
Lan's thinking, that something has to be done with the Borderlands
because of Tarmon Gaidon approaching and the the Borderland Kings &
their forces missing from their posts! So, something must be done. But
Lan deciding to go there alone was an unreasonable decision on his
part, for me.

As an aside, what about the borderland forces ? I would like Rand and
his Ashaman to gateway them back to where they came form (Borderlands),
but now that Lan and (his forces) has taken over the Borderlands
defence line, maybe they are not needed, and some other use for them
can be found in Book 12...

[Davian]

Post by ioanna
He was planning to go alone. It turns out that he won't be alone, since
because of Nyn, he will be with a small (?) army at his back after all.

It won't be a small army. Aglemar talks about the situation in The Eye of the
World. "If ever he raised the Golden Crane banner... an army would come to
follow. It may not be soon enough to stand with us in the Gap, but it could
save Shienar."

Post by ioanna
As an aside, what about the borderland forces ? I would like Rand and
his Ashaman to gateway them back to where they came form (Borderlands),
but now that Lan and (his forces) has taken over the Borderlands
defence line, maybe they are not needed, and some other use for them
can be found in Book 12...

At first I thought Jordan was just making thier swearing alligence to Rand a
bit more dramatic. That because they really did fight the Shadow on a daily
basis, they would be the only mainlanders to follow him freely, without having
been conquered. But things have gone on for too long now for that to work,
in my opinion. I think Jordan probably feels he has to make the borderlander
army plot mean something important.

With that in mind, my current prediction is that (whether the kings and queens
intend to be hostile or not), the Aes Sedai with them will take the
opportunity to capture Rand. This will be the second time that Rand is hurt
by women who can channel, with Perrin as his only chance of rescue. And in
rescuing Rand, Perrin also has the opportunity to fulfill whatever the vision
about the Broken Crown means.

[ioanna]

Post by Davian

Post by ioanna
He was planning to go alone. It turns out that he won't be alone, since
because of Nyn, he will be with a small (?) army at his back after all.

It won't be a small army. Aglemar talks about the situation in The Eye of the
World. "If ever he raised the Golden Crane banner... an army would come to
follow. It may not be soon enough to stand with us in the Gap, but it could
save Shienar."

Lan didn't mention anything about raising the the Golden Crane banner
(I think many would come to follow him in that case! But if he went
alone and bannerlees how would people know him and what he is about ?)

Anyway, disregarding the banner, I put a question mark after small in
'small army (?)', because I have no idea how 'many' people will be
following him, and if they would count as small, medium or large army.
I get the feeling they will be a significant force, and not 'small'.
Hence the questionmark... I felt it meant than in book12/Tarmon Gaidon,
Lan's forces' will be in charge of Borderland defence/attack against
the DO forces, and of course they will be successful (the good guys
win). I have no idea though if Borderland King/Queens & their forces
will play a part there (under Lan) or not. But Lan will be the main
protagonist regarding Borderland forces of the light against DO in the
last battle. He is one of the main characters of the story ater all,
and he comes from Malkier..

[Davian]

Post by ioanna

Post by Davian

Post by ioanna
He was planning to go alone. It turns out that he won't be alone, since
because of Nyn, he will be with a small (?) army at his back after all.

It won't be a small army. Aglemar talks about the situation in The Eye of the
World. "If ever he raised the Golden Crane banner... an army would come to
follow. It may not be soon enough to stand with us in the Gap, but it could
save Shienar."

Lan didn't mention anything about raising the the Golden Crane banner
(I think many would come to follow him in that case! But if he went
alone and bannerlees how would people know him and what he is about ?)

Ah, but he didn't have to. Nynaeve did it for him. It was one of the main
points of her little speach. When Lan arrives there, I'm sure the banner
will be present, even though it's not specificly necessary. "Raising the
banner" is more of an expression than an actual requirement for a scrap of
cloth. It just means he's gathering an army under the name of Malikier.

[Allen Bryan]

Post by Davian
At first I thought Jordan was just making thier swearing alligence to Rand a
bit more dramatic. That because they really did fight the Shadow on a daily
basis, they would be the only mainlanders to follow him freely, without having
been conquered. But things have gone on for too long now for that to work,
in my opinion. I think Jordan probably feels he has to make the borderlander
army plot mean something important.
With that in mind, my current prediction is that (whether the kings and queens
intend to be hostile or not), the Aes Sedai with them will take the
opportunity to capture Rand. This will be the second time that Rand is hurt
by women who can channel, with Perrin as his only chance of rescue. And in
rescuing Rand, Perrin also has the opportunity to fulfill whatever the vision
about the Broken Crown means.

Hmm. With Faile rescued, the Shaido broken, and Masema's ragtag army
virtually destroyed, Perrin no longer has any purpose in the southwest.
He's not hesitant about using Asha'man to Travel, and he'll probably
want to report back to Rand once he's got his wits about him. But where
is Rand? He'll probably have to bounce around the various capitals
looking...

Meanwhile: the Broken Crown is, of course, the crown of Saldaea. If
Queen Tenobia dies, the crown passes to Lord Davram Bashere; on his
death, Faile becomes Queen of Saldaea. I don't know if that makes
Perrin King or just Prince Consort, but it adds a third land (besides
Ghealdan and the Two Rivers) to the holdings of the House of the Wolf.
Dynastically, however, I don't see how such a realm would hold
together. Ghealdan + Duopotamia pretty much equals Manetheren, but
Saldaea is over the passes and through either Andor or Arad Doman.
Unless the Saldaeans migrate south to Almoth after Tarmon Gai'don I
don't see how Perrin can build a single kingdom out of all the odd
patches he's become lord of.

At any rate, I don't think Perrin has to fulfill the vision of the
Broken Crown in the books. Whether or not the Aes Sedai with the
Borderland Treaty Organization try to capture Rand, we already know
that the Broken Crown vision will certainly come to pass, and how.

[Donald S. Crankshaw]

Post by Allen Bryan
Hmm. With Faile rescued, the Shaido broken, and Masema's ragtag army
virtually destroyed, Perrin no longer has any purpose in the southwest.
He's not hesitant about using Asha'man to Travel, and he'll probably
want to report back to Rand once he's got his wits about him. But where
is Rand? He'll probably have to bounce around the various capitals
looking...
Meanwhile: the Broken Crown is, of course, the crown of Saldaea. If
Queen Tenobia dies, the crown passes to Lord Davram Bashere; on his
death, Faile becomes Queen of Saldaea. I don't know if that makes
Perrin King or just Prince Consort, but it adds a third land (besides
Ghealdan and the Two Rivers) to the holdings of the House of the Wolf.
Dynastically, however, I don't see how such a realm would hold
together. Ghealdan + Duopotamia pretty much equals Manetheren, but
Saldaea is over the passes and through either Andor or Arad Doman.
Unless the Saldaeans migrate south to Almoth after Tarmon Gai'don I
don't see how Perrin can build a single kingdom out of all the odd
patches he's become lord of.

Half the Asha'man are currently in Arad Doman, and I figure that Perrin
will find Rand there too. Possibly by using Ta'veren Telepathy to spy
on him until he spots a landmark. And take another look at that map.
There really isn't much between the Two Rivers and Saldaea besides
Baerlon. Elayne won't be particularly happy about giving that up, but
I'd be somewhat surprised if she still holds onto it after Tarmon
Gai'don. Meanwhile, I expect Perrin to end up in control of Arad Doman
one way or another, possibly through all those Wetlander gai'shain who
swore to Faile. See, I think that prophecy about North, East, West, and
South doesn't apply so much to Rand vs. the Seanchan, as to what the
various principles end up controlling in the end. Right now, Rand
controls the East, but not the North. The Seanchan--and in some sense
Mat--control the South, but not the West. Perrin will wind up
controlling the West: Saldaea, Ghealdanin, the Two Rivers, and Arad
Doman. Lan and Nynaeve will take over the North, except for Tar Valon,
which falls under Egwene's control. That, I think, is how Rand's
prophecy will be fulfilled.

-Donald S. Crankshaw

[Michael Rost]

Post by ioanna
There are spoilers here..
.
.
.
.
.
.
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

<snip>

Post by ioanna
But what was horrible for me, was Perrin killing Rolan and the other 2
Aiel who have helped Faile, in cold blood! And not much (or anything !)
is made of it! Faile being happy to be rescued and reunited with
Perrin, as that is the most important thing and nothing else matters !
Out of sight out of mind ? Not even that ! Faile's rescuer's corpse
lies a couple of feet next to her, but everything is perfectly fine
with her ! (No : "but perrin he is one of the good guys. he helped me,
you shouldn't have killed him"). No! not even that! No guilt, no
remorse, no nothing ! I had no particular liking for Rolan but he was a
decent guy (apart from his bad taste : see "he liked Faile").

Faile doesn't say anything, but Perrin smells from her "the dull, aching
scent of sadness and the greasy aroma of guilt. Shame like thousands of
hair-fine needles pricking." (KoD, 651) Perhaps this isn't enough resolution
for you (and it may not be enough for me), but all-things-considered the
rescue turned out better than I feared with Perrin going even further off the
deep end than working directly with the Seanchan. In any event, I'm glad this
story line is resolved because it made CoT a bear to read at times.

Mike

[Aaron]

Post by ioanna
There are spoilers here..
.
.
.
.
.
.
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
For me, the best chapter is the prologue ! (just IMO). Having read that
some time ago my expectations of KoD had risen significantly. I
thought: "At last ! this is more like it!" However, for me the rest of
KoD was not up to its prologue standard, and since I had expectations
(or at least, hopes) after reading the prologue, I was somewhat
disappointed. OK, for me the book was better than CoT, but that is not
saying much... (I hated CoT). I liked KoD as much as tPoD and WH which
for me are 2nd least favoutites after CoT. Well, at least this book had
a great prologue..

True.

Post by ioanna
Now, plot-wise..
Rand: not much. The semirhage trap is sprung, (with Semi captured) but
that is not much progress! And the semi encounter was somewhat of an
anticlimax for me.. I expected more.. I don't know, somehow it didn't
have the same feeling as earlier books (eg. earlier encounters with
Forsaken, in this case. They were much more exciting!).

I definitely agree with you: at first, I was disappointed, and puzzled.
Shortly thereafter, though, I realized there was probably much more
going on there than meets the eye, and I think we'll see that in book
12. Still, no matter what her purpose, it was anticlimactic.

Post by ioanna
And why, may I
ask is Semi still alive ??

So that she can carry out her evil plan for post-capturing.

Post by ioanna
I think RJ (and not just Rand) has a problem
with killing women !(I mean with the good guys/gals klling women). The
male forsaken were always killed on the spot in earlier books. Now we
have almost run out of men forsaken (going through the 2nd
round/reincarnations), but the female ones are all alive and well (no
one has the guts to kill them!)

I agree completely, but this has been obvious for several books. He's
got to get over it, though, because as you point out, he's vastly
outnumbered by Forsaken right now.

Post by ioanna
Perrin: The long awaited rescue finally happens! Thank God! The good
thing (and that IS progress in the grander scheme of things) is that
the Shaido are no more. Lots killed, the rest releasing the wetlander
gaishan and return to the Waste! So the "Shaido issue" is resolved !
But what was horrible for me, was Perrin killing Rolan and the other 2
Aiel who have helped Faile, in cold blood!

I think you need to read that again. Cold blood is not when huge armed
men are rushing at you to kill you. Rolan was stupid, but it needed to
happen. He was trying to help Faile escape, but he rushed at the people
trying to free Faile. Still, he is bigger and stronger than Perrin, so
Faile would have had to run off with him if he lived, since he's not as
big a sally as Perrin is. I do agree, though, that Faile was completely
dismissive of the whole event.

Post by ioanna
And
Faile's stupidity in handing Galina the Rod and then instead of
escaping getting herself and her followers trapped and about to die.
Well done Faile!.

How could she suspect? I mean, she was stupid for never even thinking
BA as she explained how Galina couldn't lie, but for the most part,
Galina did well in not revealing anything to Faile about her true
nature.

Post by ioanna
And what is deal with Galina and the Rod ?

*snippage*

She can't channel, per Therava's orders after the binding, unless told
to. You're right, she needed another AS, and it's not so big of a risk.
All she has to explain is that the Aiel savages bonded her using that
rod, and all the AS will be horrified that this happened to her and
will immediately release her. She'd have been better off without a BA
to help, though, because then she'd be more likely to be punished or
taken advantage of.

Post by ioanna
Nynaeve : I had read about Nyn doing something important/memorable...
eehm.. WHAT is that ? letting Lan go to Malkier? Sorry, I did not
think that was such a big deal (just a tiny detail). And what was Lan
planning to do ? (Discounting Nyn's actions to get him support which he
is not aware of.)

But that's the key, you can't discount that. Lan has an unending war
with the Shadow. He must do this in order to live a "happy" life.
Nynaeve knew that, but she's determined not to let him die, so she is
getting him some help. I think TG will start just as Lan is heading
into the Blight, and so he will be fighting alongside everyone else.

It would be good if the Borderland armies returned home, but don't
forget about Travelling. It doesn't matter how long they seek Rand, as
long as they can be sent immediately back for TG.

Post by ioanna
Elayne: What stupidity to go just 4 strong in the house that is the BA
nest ! And Elayne KNOWS about Liandrin's 13 ! She was part of the
initial BA hunt, so 13 minus 2?

Umm, 4, because of Ispan and Liandrin. She really should have been more
careful, though, with knowing a BA is among her AS. Still, how did that
woman have time to send word, when it all happened so fast? And where
were the other BA hiding until this point?

Post by ioanna
By the way, surpise that Careane rather than Sareitha is the BA with
Elayne!. After mentioning that Adeleas murderer is a BA (not kin,
windfinder) and then Sareitha behaving very suspiciously.. RJ was
pulling our leg. It seems that Sareitha was a red herring ! (Very
unfair of him ! :) I mean surpises are all well and good, but how is
Sareitha's suspicious behaviour to be accounted for, other than "it was
on purpose just to make her look guilty" ?).

Agreed. RJ is an asshole about this. He did it with Taimandred as well,
though many here will disagree and say they knew he was a red herring
all along. I think that defies logic, to claim that you *know*
something is a red herring, but that's just me. You can be suspicious,
but the fact of the matter is that you've seen the parallels as well,
so you should be trying to link the two, not sit around waiting for it
to be disproven.

You're right about Birgitte. The windfinders should have seen reason
the first time around. No Elayne = no bargain, and BA means no soldiers
can realistically rescue Elayne without decimating her army so much
that she won't be able to defend the city anymore. It's just silly.

Post by ioanna
Bottom line..
Mat could have used the same amount of chapters to get command of all
the Seanchean forces. The borderland forces ... should have
returned north, and be under Lan's command,

Lan has stated repeatedly (TEOTW, for one) that he will not lead men
into the blight.

Post by ioanna
Halima should have been killed (1 more forsaken should have been down
and out !- And HOW was she recognised as murderer because of Cabriana
?????),

Everything fell into place, remember? Narishma provided some of the
clues (woman channeling Saidin) based on the battle at SL. Romanda was
already wondering about Cabriana, and about the strange relationship
between Halima and Delana.

Post by ioanna
Maighdin should have been revealed as Morgase (with the news
taken to her children, Rand and everyone else concerned)

This would have served as evidence for Gawyn, as well. How was Egwene
going to escape and get to Gawyn so quickly, again? You said she
should, but I can't imagine her captivity being so brief.

Post by ioanna
Rand again is almost absent (a pity..! I used to like him, but I have
almost forgotten who he is by now... In CoT as well he was barely
mentioned).

I think RJ's stalling has left him with no idea what to do with Rand.
Rand kicks everyone's ass, so if there were more Rand POVs, the series
would be over by now. Instead, with more Elayne and Egwene bath
sequences, the series can live on virtually forever.

RJ, you suck, now go ahead and finish the damn series so I can never
read your writing again.

-Aaron

[c***@hotmail.com]

Perrin and Faile stuff below.

Post by Aaron

Post by ioanna
There are spoilers here..
.
.
.
.
.
.
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

[...]

Post by Aaron

Post by ioanna
Perrin: The long awaited rescue finally happens! Thank God! The good
thing (and that IS progress in the grander scheme of things) is that
the Shaido are no more. Lots killed, the rest releasing the wetlander
gaishan and return to the Waste! So the "Shaido issue" is resolved !
But what was horrible for me, was Perrin killing Rolan and the other 2
Aiel who have helped Faile, in cold blood!

I think you need to read that again. Cold blood is not when huge armed
men are rushing at you to kill you. Rolan was stupid, but it needed to
happen. He was trying to help Faile escape, but he rushed at the people
trying to free Faile. Still, he is bigger and stronger than Perrin, so
Faile would have had to run off with him if he lived, since he's not as
big a sally as Perrin is. I do agree, though, that Faile was completely
dismissive of the whole event.

People keep saying this, but it's ridiculous. Faile was not at all
dismissive. She feels grief and guilt and shame. But why would she say
anything to Perrin about it? So he can feel grief, guilt, and shame
too?
She knows Perrin is a good person, and knows he's been frantic to
rescue her; she knows he attacked Rolan and the others thinking they
were captors and possibly potential rapists of Faile and the other,
all-female, prisoner with her. Why inflict on him the grief and guilt
she'll always feel from now on, that things happened too fast for her
to stop things? How selfish would that be, to mar Perrin's joy and
relief with horrible guilt? She can't do anything to fix it, and she'll
have to live it, but it won't help to make Perrin feel it too.

Faile is not nearly as horrible as people make out, and if this
experience has gotten her to grow up about her jealousy, then she'll be
pretty cool.

[...]

-Chris

[Tim Bruening]

Post by ioanna
There are spoilers here..
.
.
.
.
.
.
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Nynaeve : I had read about Nyn doing something important/memorable...
eehm.. WHAT is that ? letting Lan go to Malkier? Sorry, I did not
think that was such a big deal (just a tiny detail). And what was Lan
planning to do ? (Discounting Nyn's actions to get him support which he
is not aware of.) Go to the Blight, kill say, 4 trollocs and then get
himslef killed ? As a mini battle, "appetizer" /preview to the Last One
? Great help that would be! Although he has a point : the borderlanders
are warriors always fighting the shadow, and keeping the rest of
Randland safe from invasions from the blight. So, of course, when the
last Battle is approaching, all kings with their advisors, and their
armes have left! (They found the perfect time to abandon their post!!)
To leave the borderlands defenceless! ? Great ! The thing would be to
convince them to go back (and hence do something actually useful!)
rather than Lan fighting in the Blight alone !

Maybe the news that Lan is riding to Tarmon Gai'don will convince the
Borderland monarchs and armies to return to their posts!

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by ioanna
There are spoilers here..
.
.
.
.
.
.
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Nynaeve : I had read about Nyn doing something important/memorable...
eehm.. WHAT is that ? letting Lan go to Malkier? Sorry, I did not
think that was such a big deal (just a tiny detail). And what was Lan
planning to do ? (Discounting Nyn's actions to get him support which he
is not aware of.) Go to the Blight, kill say, 4 trollocs and then get
himslef killed ? As a mini battle, "appetizer" /preview to the Last One
? Great help that would be! Although he has a point : the borderlanders
are warriors always fighting the shadow, and keeping the rest of
Randland safe from invasions from the blight. So, of course, when the
last Battle is approaching, all kings with their advisors, and their
armes have left! (They found the perfect time to abandon their post!!)
To leave the borderlands defenceless! ? Great ! The thing would be to
convince them to go back (and hence do something actually useful!)
rather than Lan fighting in the Blight alone !

Maybe the news that Lan is riding to Tarmon Gai'don will convince the
Borderland monarchs and armies to return to their posts!

I doubt that, unless they decide that Lan is trying to become overking
of all the Borderlands, or if there is an attack on the Borderlands. I
think Lan's purpose there is to mobilize the rest of the Borderlands,
particularly the former Malkieri. The other rulers won't return until
they are satisfied that Rand is going to do what they want him to do,
which is to turn his attention to the Blight. Cf. Lan's comment about
Rand weaving his Seanchan schemes.

-Bill E. Brooks

[leopard]

My first thoughts on the Lan situation was that it's yet ANOTHER
example of the lack of communication between the good guys. If Lan is
so distraught about Rand not paying attention to the borderlands, why
doesn't he go up to him and say, "Hey sheepherder, since we know the
last battle is coming and all, why don't I go up to Shienar to help
defend against the first waves. And if I could get a small handfull of
Ashaman and some Aiel that would be great. Or maybe the Legion of the
Dragon? Or some Tairens? Or some Cairhienen? Or some Illianers? You
know, just so I could hold the line long enough for you to finish your
Seanchan business and bring the rest of the army." Sure this might
have happened and we just didn't see it. But I got the impression it
never happened even off screen.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by leopard
My first thoughts on the Lan situation was that it's yet ANOTHER
example of the lack of communication between the good guys. If Lan is
so distraught about Rand not paying attention to the borderlands, why
doesn't he go up to him and say, "Hey sheepherder, since we know the
last battle is coming and all, why don't I go up to Shienar to help
defend against the first waves. And if I could get a small handfull of
Ashaman and some Aiel that would be great. Or maybe the Legion of the
Dragon? Or some Tairens? Or some Cairhienen? Or some Illianers? You
know, just so I could hold the line long enough for you to finish your
Seanchan business and bring the rest of the army." Sure this might
have happened and we just didn't see it. But I got the impression it
never happened even off screen.

I wasn't clear when I said "Lan's purpose there". I meant Nynaeve's
purpose for sending Lan there. I get the impression that Nynaeve will
inform Rand of what she has done, when she feels the time is right.
Why she has not done so already, I don't know. I suppose I agree with
Rand that it is Aes Sedai secrecy. And like Verin, she seems to have
chosen to deal with matters that Rand is neglecting.

As for why Lan didn't express his complaint directly to Rand, I don't
know that either. Perhaps he figured he'd get a better reception from
his wife. In any case, she seems have at least partially solved the
problem you are talking about. She can even join Lan's army to give it
Traveling capability if she chooses to.

-Bill E. Brooks