Ending of Crossroads of Twilight, Egwene the Giant Douche

[Scott Dallmeyer]

Just Finished Crossroads of Twilight.

Just redead the series in preparation for book 11.

I originally bought CoT when if first came out and got half way though
it before I decided that nothing was going to happen, I would just end
up dissapointed so I decided to wait will book 11 came out and read it
with that. Boy was I right, I am not sure I have ever read a 700 page
book where less happened.

On the ending with Egwene:

I could hardly believe that Egwene on her own could be this stupid but
certainly not with Gareth Bryne helping her who is by everyone's
accounts a brilliant general.

RJ never explained why she was trying to turn the Chain covering the
Harbor into Cuendillar I will assume using logic (something that does
not seem to apply) that she is trying to block ships from being able to
enter the harbor thus finally starting the siege of Tar Valon.

Turing the Harbor chain into a invincible substance is pointless.
Stupid and counter productive. They can just lower and raise it like
they have always done and now it will never break, rust, or need to be
replaced, good job idiot the Tower is now better off.

Okay I will assume for a moment that it turned the chain not into a
flexible chain but one solid piece (no reason whatsoever to believe
this is the case since all the links are individual pieces of iron).
All the tower then needs to do is shatter the stone it is anchored to
and it will sink to the bottom of the bay, so still Egwene accomplished
nothing.

What you need it is a chain crossing the river outside the range of the
Towers influence which is what I thought they were going to do until
they turned out to be retards. You have 30,000+ soldiers you must have
a couple dozen blacksmiths , make a regular chain (or just travel to a
city/town and buy the damn chain) turn it invincible and put it across
the damn river. Hell make a net if you want, tie the ends to rock or
trees or whatever. Just stop being retarded.

Here is another idea, Travel to a town down river where there are those
big boats you needed to sink to block the bay and take them. But no,
Egwene doesn't have a bloody brain so she decides to get herself
captured in some stupid scheme that had no chance of working in the
first place and anyone with a brain like Gareth Bryne is supposed to
have could have told her wasn't going to work.

Frankly the people of Randland are just too stupid, selflish, greedy,
incompetent that I think they deserve to have Rand go over to the Dark
Side, I mean seriously are these people worth saving?

I realize that RJ just wanted to get her captured so something dramatic
could happen but couldn't he come up with something that didn't make us
all groan, or laugh at the retard playing lead the group of dancing
dunces.

Scott

[Geoffrey Willmore]

"Scott Dallmeyer" wrote in message

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Okay I will assume for a moment that it turned the chain not into a
flexible chain but one solid piece (no reason whatsoever to believe
this is the case since all the links are individual pieces of iron).

Touching pieces of metal merge into a single piece of cuendillar. See the
last paragraphs of chapter 17.

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
All the tower then needs to do is shatter the stone it is anchored to
and it will sink to the bottom of the bay, so still Egwene accomplished
nothing.

Maybe it is not as easy to do that as it seems. Anyway, even if they manage
it, they lose the possibility to close the harbor to unwanted ships, for
example for an attack fleet. So even that way, it is quite positive.
QUIT

[Scott Dallmeyer]

"Touching pieces of metal merge into a single piece of cuendillar. See
the
last paragraphs of chapter 17. "

Okay I was wrong.

"Maybe it is not as easy to do that as it seems. Anyway, even if they
manage
it, they lose the possibility to close the harbor to unwanted ships,
for
example for an attack fleet. So even that way, it is quite positive.
QUIT "

If the Rebels had a Fleet the Tower would not be getting supplies
though regardless of the chain. Since Egwene knows she has no fleet
and that if she wanted to assault the Tower Traveling in would be a
better way to do it anyway. The making your own chain to put accross
the river is still a far far better plan then taking the Amerlyn seat
to the gates of the enemy alone to transfor their chain a victory of
deception at best. She is still a retard.

[David Chapman]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
If the Rebels had a Fleet the Tower would not be getting supplies
though regardless of the chain.

Of course they would. Even if the rebels had a fleet, they couldn't get it
past Tar Valon. That means at least one of the harbours would be
accessible, and food could get in.

[Paul Lints]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Just Finished Crossroads of Twilight.
Just redead the series in preparation for book 11.
I originally bought CoT when if first came out and got half way though
it before I decided that nothing was going to happen, I would just end
up dissapointed so I decided to wait will book 11 came out and read it
with that. Boy was I right, I am not sure I have ever read a 700 page
book where less happened.
I could hardly believe that Egwene on her own could be this stupid but
certainly not with Gareth Bryne helping her who is by everyone's
accounts a brilliant general.
RJ never explained why she was trying to turn the Chain covering the
Harbor into Cuendillar I will assume using logic (something that does
not seem to apply) that she is trying to block ships from being able to
enter the harbor thus finally starting the siege of Tar Valon.
Turing the Harbor chain into a invincible substance is pointless.
Stupid and counter productive. They can just lower and raise it like
they have always done and now it will never break, rust, or need to be
replaced, good job idiot the Tower is now better off.

I guess you missed the part where it was revealed that if you
/cuendillar/ a piece of metal that is touching another metal, both
become /cuendillar/ and fuse together. So those bolts attaching it to a
wall? /Cuendillar/. If both chains are /cuendillar/, the only way to
get supplies in to TV (ignoring Travelling, because they can't) is by
tearing down the walls the harbor chains are attached to. Hardly a
smart idea during a war.

[Bill]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Just Finished Crossroads of Twilight.
Just redead the series in preparation for book 11.
I originally bought CoT when if first came out and got half way though
it before I decided that nothing was going to happen, I would just end
up dissapointed so I decided to wait will book 11 came out and read it
with that. Boy was I right, I am not sure I have ever read a 700 page
book where less happened.
I could hardly believe that Egwene on her own could be this stupid but
certainly not with Gareth Bryne helping her who is by everyone's
accounts a brilliant general.
RJ never explained why she was trying to turn the Chain covering the
Harbor into Cuendillar I will assume using logic (something that does
not seem to apply) that she is trying to block ships from being able to
enter the harbor thus finally starting the siege of Tar Valon.
Turing the Harbor chain into a invincible substance is pointless.
Stupid and counter productive. They can just lower and raise it like
they have always done and now it will never break, rust, or need to be
replaced, good job idiot the Tower is now better off.
Okay I will assume for a moment that it turned the chain not into a
flexible chain but one solid piece (no reason whatsoever to believe
this is the case since all the links are individual pieces of iron).
All the tower then needs to do is shatter the stone it is anchored to
and it will sink to the bottom of the bay, so still Egwene accomplished
nothing.
What you need it is a chain crossing the river outside the range of the
Towers influence which is what I thought they were going to do until
they turned out to be retards. You have 30,000+ soldiers you must have
a couple dozen blacksmiths , make a regular chain (or just travel to a
city/town and buy the damn chain) turn it invincible and put it across
the damn river. Hell make a net if you want, tie the ends to rock or
trees or whatever. Just stop being retarded.
Here is another idea, Travel to a town down river where there are those
big boats you needed to sink to block the bay and take them. But no,
Egwene doesn't have a bloody brain so she decides to get herself
captured in some stupid scheme that had no chance of working in the
first place and anyone with a brain like Gareth Bryne is supposed to
have could have told her wasn't going to work.
Frankly the people of Randland are just too stupid, selflish, greedy,
incompetent that I think they deserve to have Rand go over to the Dark
Side, I mean seriously are these people worth saving?
I realize that RJ just wanted to get her captured so something dramatic
could happen but couldn't he come up with something that didn't make us
all groan, or laugh at the retard playing lead the group of dancing
dunces.
Scott

I seem to remember Gareth Bryne telling Eq. that if he could get past
the chains that block the opening in to North and South Harbor he would
be able to sink ships. This would cause TV to use up all its supply
off food and what not. With that making the chains, which weren't
raised at the time, into Cuendillar, a solid piece of Cuendillar, then
they wouldn't be able to raise it at all. Letting Gareth Bryne sink
the ships he needs in South and North Harbor.

[Wil Hunt]

Post by Bill
I seem to remember Gareth Bryne telling Eq. that if he could get past
the chains that block the opening in to North and South Harbor he would
be able to sink ships. This would cause TV to use up all its supply
off food and what not. With that making the chains, which weren't
raised at the time, into Cuendillar, a solid piece of Cuendillar, then
they wouldn't be able to raise it at all. Letting Gareth Bryne sink
the ships he needs in South and North Harbor.

This is the first explanation of that scheme that has satisfied me. It
makes much more sense to make it impossible to block the river than to
make a feeble attempt to make it impassable. I'd been wrestling with
this for a while now, off and on. I'm not sure if there's any
counter-evidence in the book, but this actually makes sense at least.

In any case, good thinking.

[Dan Weiner]

Post by Wil Hunt

Post by Bill
I seem to remember Gareth Bryne telling Eq. that if he could get past
the chains that block the opening in to North and South Harbor he would
be able to sink ships. This would cause TV to use up all its supply
off food and what not. With that making the chains, which weren't
raised at the time, into Cuendillar, a solid piece of Cuendillar, then
they wouldn't be able to raise it at all. Letting Gareth Bryne sink
the ships he needs in South and North Harbor.

This is the first explanation of that scheme that has satisfied me. It
makes much more sense to make it impossible to block the river than to
make a feeble attempt to make it impassable. I'd been wrestling with
this for a while now, off and on. I'm not sure if there's any
counter-evidence in the book, but this actually makes sense at least.
In any case, good thinking.

I'm pretty sure the chain was above water when Eg turned it into heartstone.

That said, I think a better plan would have been to put some flimsy iron
screens (chicken wire?) across the river, north and south of TV, and
turn them into heartstone. Bam, instant blockade, without even coming
close to the Tower AS, and without doing permanent damage to the TV
harbors. When the war is over, the banks can be dug up to get rid of
the screens.

--D

[Bill]

Post by Dan Weiner

Post by Wil Hunt

Post by Bill
I seem to remember Gareth Bryne telling Eq. that if he could get past
the chains that block the opening in to North and South Harbor he would
be able to sink ships. This would cause TV to use up all its supply
off food and what not. With that making the chains, which weren't
raised at the time, into Cuendillar, a solid piece of Cuendillar, then
they wouldn't be able to raise it at all. Letting Gareth Bryne sink
the ships he needs in South and North Harbor.

This is the first explanation of that scheme that has satisfied me. It
makes much more sense to make it impossible to block the river than to
make a feeble attempt to make it impassable. I'd been wrestling with
this for a while now, off and on. I'm not sure if there's any
counter-evidence in the book, but this actually makes sense at least.
In any case, good thinking.

I'm pretty sure the chain was above water when Eg turned it into heartstone.
That said, I think a better plan would have been to put some flimsy iron
screens (chicken wire?) across the river, north and south of TV, and
turn them into heartstone. Bam, instant blockade, without even coming
close to the Tower AS, and without doing permanent damage to the TV
harbors. When the war is over, the banks can be dug up to get rid of
the screens.
--D

Going by that they could use inverted weaves to block all ships into
the harbors. With all the AS and all Accepted they have it should be
easy to do just butt the ends of their weaves together or wrap the ends
together to cover the harbor mouth. Or if a gateway didn't have a size
limit just put a huge gateway in from of both harbors that is just a
few miles down or upstream from TV. If you did it right it'd look like
TV wasn't there, from the river that is.

[Lorfarius]

Post by Dan Weiner

Post by Wil Hunt

Post by Bill
I seem to remember Gareth Bryne telling Eq. that if he could get past
the chains that block the opening in to North and South Harbor he would
be able to sink ships. This would cause TV to use up all its supply
off food and what not. With that making the chains, which weren't
raised at the time, into Cuendillar, a solid piece of Cuendillar, then
they wouldn't be able to raise it at all. Letting Gareth Bryne sink
the ships he needs in South and North Harbor.

This is the first explanation of that scheme that has satisfied me. It
makes much more sense to make it impossible to block the river than to
make a feeble attempt to make it impassable. I'd been wrestling with
this for a while now, off and on. I'm not sure if there's any
counter-evidence in the book, but this actually makes sense at least.
In any case, good thinking.

I'm pretty sure the chain was above water when Eg turned it into heartstone.
That said, I think a better plan would have been to put some flimsy iron
screens (chicken wire?) across the river, north and south of TV, and
turn them into heartstone. Bam, instant blockade, without even coming
close to the Tower AS, and without doing permanent damage to the TV
harbors. When the war is over, the banks can be dug up to get rid of
the screens.
--D

But isnt the risk to the people who put the wire up? Wont the Aes Sedai
inside the tower just pull it down before its put into place?

[Jasper Janssen]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:11:00 +0100, "Lorfarius"

Post by Lorfarius
But isnt the risk to the people who put the wire up? Wont the Aes Sedai
inside the tower just pull it down before its put into place?

Not if they can't see it. The cuendillar thing actually makes it feasible
to block the river up and downstream of TV with the amount of iron that a
typical army and/or countryside would have available.

Building a riverblocking chain out of iron -- let alone one with
raising/lowering winches -- takes up fuckloads of expensive metal. This is
a pre-industrial society. Not only does iron ore have to be mined by hand,
it then has to be smelted in huge furnaces that burn massive amounts of
fuel -- a big furnace can take 300 people just to cut down enough wood to
fuel it in a woody area. The resulting pig iron still needs to be hammered
at by blacksmiths to make it actual good quality iron. A boat-stopping,
river-blocking chain is not the work of a few dozen blacksmiths and
farriers, not within timeframes useful to a siege. We're talking metric
tonnes of iron. It'd also probably cost them their entire warchest, if not
more.

Making a long but small chain, otoh, could be done, and turning it into
cuendillar after would turn a ship trying to sail through it into
kindling.


Jasper

[Dan Weiner]

*snip*
Jasper

Yes, what Jasper said is what I meant. :)

[Bill]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Just Finished Crossroads of Twilight.
Just redead the series in preparation for book 11.
I originally bought CoT when if first came out and got half way though
it before I decided that nothing was going to happen, I would just end
up dissapointed so I decided to wait will book 11 came out and read it
with that. Boy was I right, I am not sure I have ever read a 700 page
book where less happened.
I could hardly believe that Egwene on her own could be this stupid but
certainly not with Gareth Bryne helping her who is by everyone's
accounts a brilliant general.
RJ never explained why she was trying to turn the Chain covering the
Harbor into Cuendillar I will assume using logic (something that does
not seem to apply) that she is trying to block ships from being able to
enter the harbor thus finally starting the siege of Tar Valon.
Turing the Harbor chain into a invincible substance is pointless.
Stupid and counter productive. They can just lower and raise it like
they have always done and now it will never break, rust, or need to be
replaced, good job idiot the Tower is now better off.
Okay I will assume for a moment that it turned the chain not into a
flexible chain but one solid piece (no reason whatsoever to believe
this is the case since all the links are individual pieces of iron).
All the tower then needs to do is shatter the stone it is anchored to
and it will sink to the bottom of the bay, so still Egwene accomplished
nothing.
What you need it is a chain crossing the river outside the range of the
Towers influence which is what I thought they were going to do until
they turned out to be retards. You have 30,000+ soldiers you must have
a couple dozen blacksmiths , make a regular chain (or just travel to a
city/town and buy the damn chain) turn it invincible and put it across
the damn river. Hell make a net if you want, tie the ends to rock or
trees or whatever. Just stop being retarded.
Here is another idea, Travel to a town down river where there are those
big boats you needed to sink to block the bay and take them. But no,
Egwene doesn't have a bloody brain so she decides to get herself
captured in some stupid scheme that had no chance of working in the
first place and anyone with a brain like Gareth Bryne is supposed to
have could have told her wasn't going to work.
Frankly the people of Randland are just too stupid, selflish, greedy,
incompetent that I think they deserve to have Rand go over to the Dark
Side, I mean seriously are these people worth saving?
I realize that RJ just wanted to get her captured so something dramatic
could happen but couldn't he come up with something that didn't make us
all groan, or laugh at the retard playing lead the group of dancing
dunces.
Scott

I seem to remember Gareth Bryne telling Eq. that if he could get past
the chains that block the opening in to North and South Harbor he would
be able to sink ships. This would cause TV to use up all its supply
off food and what not. With that making the chains, which weren't
raised at the time, into Cuendillar, a solid piece of Cuendillar, then
they wouldn't be able to raise it at all. Letting Gareth Bryne sink
the ships he needs in South and North Harbor.

[Umair]

On a sidenote, making cuendillar was supposed to be VERY difficult.
With RJ showing us that its piece of cake, a whole lot of things are
possible. Like cuendillar armour/weaponry. They should put their
cuendillar factory to converting soldiers' armour instead of churning
out valuables. Imagine that: a soldier covered in cuendillar armour.
Quite invincible (to OP as well).

IMO it stinks.

[Knnn]

Post by Umair
With RJ showing us that its piece of cake, a whole lot of things are
possible. Like cuendillar armour/weaponry. They should put their
cuendillar factory to converting soldiers' armour instead of churning
out valuables. Imagine that: a soldier covered in cuendillar armour.
Quite invincible (to OP as well).

Actually, after reading this I was thinking of Cuendillar artillery
pieces. One of the main problems is that cannons have to be able to
withstand the blast that fires the shot out. This makes "heavy"
cannons _heavy_. With Cuendillar you don't have that problem (though
you still have to worry about recoil).

Knnn.

[Scott Dallmeyer]

Post by Knnn
Actually, after reading this I was thinking of Cuendillar artillery
pieces. One of the main problems is that cannons have to be able to
withstand the blast that fires the shot out. This makes "heavy"
cannons _heavy_. With Cuendillar you don't have that problem (though
you still have to worry about recoil).

Oath 2: "To make no weapon with which one man may kill another."

Does that including making canon so you can cause random destruction
and death?
Since you are not really using one man to kill another specific
singular man and how Aes Sedi tend to make thier words dance and mean
what they want. Tt certainly covers swords and such, but making armor
should be no problem.

And as for making valuables to sell. What do you think a lord would
pay more for, a cuendillar cup, or a cuendillar breastplate.

Scott

[Bill]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer

Post by Knnn
Actually, after reading this I was thinking of Cuendillar artillery
pieces. One of the main problems is that cannons have to be able to
withstand the blast that fires the shot out. This makes "heavy"
cannons _heavy_. With Cuendillar you don't have that problem (though
you still have to worry about recoil).

Oath 2: "To make no weapon with which one man may kill another."
Does that including making canon so you can cause random destruction
and death?
Since you are not really using one man to kill another specific
singular man and how Aes Sedi tend to make thier words dance and mean
what they want. Tt certainly covers swords and such, but making armor
should be no problem.
And as for making valuables to sell. What do you think a lord would
pay more for, a cuendillar cup, or a cuendillar breastplate.
Scott

I can just see a line of pikemen with their tall shields marching
forward, shields,helmets, breast plates all made of cuendillar.

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Oath 2: "To make no weapon with which one man may kill another."

Now Mat, you may not kill other men with this, do you understand? Good,
now where are these c'anon you spoke of?

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Does that including making canon so you can cause random destruction
and death?
Since you are not really using one man to kill another specific
singular man and how Aes Sedi tend to make thier words dance and mean
what they want. Tt certainly covers swords and such, but making armor
should be no problem.
And as for making valuables to sell. What do you think a lord would
pay more for, a cuendillar cup, or a cuendillar breastplate.

Depends on whether the cup is more like this:
Loading Image...

or this:
Loading Image...

I'd vote sports cup over breastplate.

[Jasper Janssen]

On 27 Sep 2005 13:34:21 -0700, "Scott Dallmeyer"

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
And as for making valuables to sell. What do you think a lord would
pay more for, a cuendillar cup, or a cuendillar breastplate.

Yeah, you definitely wanna be handing your secret weapon off to random
people with enough money to pay for it.

Jasper

[Bill]

Post by Knnn

Post by Umair
With RJ showing us that its piece of cake, a whole lot of things are
possible. Like cuendillar armour/weaponry. They should put their
cuendillar factory to converting soldiers' armour instead of churning
out valuables. Imagine that: a soldier covered in cuendillar armour.
Quite invincible (to OP as well).

Actually, after reading this I was thinking of Cuendillar artillery
pieces. One of the main problems is that cannons have to be able to
withstand the blast that fires the shot out. This makes "heavy"
cannons _heavy_. With Cuendillar you don't have that problem (though
you still have to worry about recoil).
Knnn.

I wonder if we are going to see the cuendillar cannon now that Mat know
what Illudra(sp?) needs a bellfounder.

[Colin Zealley]

Matt knows she needs a bellfounder, but he doesn't know why.

And if you are in an Age where cannon don't exist, that's a very big leap of
inspiration.

But obviously someone's going to make that leap. My money isn't on Matt for
it, though, unless one of his ghost memories goes far enough back to know
firearms from the AoL or even earlier. It's more likely IMNSHO that he'll
charm the explanation out of the lady herself.
Colin

Post by Bill

Post by Knnn

Post by Umair
With RJ showing us that its piece of cake, a whole lot of things are
possible. Like cuendillar armour/weaponry. They should put their
cuendillar factory to converting soldiers' armour instead of churning
out valuables. Imagine that: a soldier covered in cuendillar armour.
Quite invincible (to OP as well).

Actually, after reading this I was thinking of Cuendillar artillery
pieces. One of the main problems is that cannons have to be able to
withstand the blast that fires the shot out. This makes "heavy"
cannons _heavy_. With Cuendillar you don't have that problem (though
you still have to worry about recoil).
Knnn.

I wonder if we are going to see the cuendillar cannon now that Mat know
what Illudra(sp?) needs a bellfounder.

[Jasper Janssen]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:10:57 +0100, "Colin Zealley"

Post by Colin Zealley
Matt knows she needs a bellfounder, but he doesn't know why.
And if you are in an Age where cannon don't exist, that's a very big leap of
inspiration.
But obviously someone's going to make that leap. My money isn't on Matt for
it, though, unless one of his ghost memories goes far enough back to know
firearms from the AoL or even earlier. It's more likely IMNSHO that he'll
charm the explanation out of the lady herself.

Incidentally, how much of a stupid bitch is Aludra, anyway? Why is her
toying with a man over something that could very well make a real
difference on fucking Armageddon day presented as being in any way normal
or reasonable?

Jasper

[David Chapman]

Post by Jasper Janssen
Incidentally, how much of a stupid bitch is Aludra, anyway? Why is her
toying with a man over something that could very well make a real
difference on fucking Armageddon day presented as being in any way normal
or reasonable?

I imagine she still considers what she's discovered to be a secret of the
Illuminators, and as such she's honour bound not to give it away. Dropping
heavy hints as to what she's figured out is already a stretch for her.

[Colin Zealley]

And the Illuminators were very inward-looking. Does she even realise that TG
is coming up? Have we seen anything to suggest she does? Not that I recall,
although my memory sure isn't perfect.

Colin

Post by David Chapman

Post by Jasper Janssen
Incidentally, how much of a stupid bitch is Aludra, anyway? Why is her
toying with a man over something that could very well make a real
difference on fucking Armageddon day presented as being in any way normal
or reasonable?

I imagine she still considers what she's discovered to be a secret of the
Illuminators, and as such she's honour bound not to give it away.
Dropping heavy hints as to what she's figured out is already a stretch for
her.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

[Elfseeker]

Post by Colin Zealley
And the Illuminators were very inward-looking. Does she even realise that
TG is coming up? Have we seen anything to suggest she does? Not that I
recall, although my memory sure isn't perfect.

On this, I must say it counts rather strongly that she has ever only thought
of it in terms of fireworks. Pretty displays of light and color. Dangerous,
yes, but not in any scale to be worried about if you know what you are
doing. The 'Illuminator secret'-thing is just topping. :)

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by Umair
On a sidenote, making cuendillar was supposed to be VERY difficult.
With RJ showing us that its piece of cake, a whole lot of things are
possible. Like cuendillar armour/weaponry. They should put their
cuendillar factory to converting soldiers' armour instead of churning
out valuables. Imagine that: a soldier covered in cuendillar armour.
Quite invincible (to OP as well).
IMO it stinks.

Of possible interest... At Dragon*Con this year, someone asked if Aes
Sedai could make cuendillar armor, and if it would be resistant to the
One Power. Jordan's answer was to sternly say "Read And Find Out."

[Colin Zealley]

Cool.

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by Umair
On a sidenote, making cuendillar was supposed to be VERY difficult.
With RJ showing us that its piece of cake, a whole lot of things are
possible. Like cuendillar armour/weaponry. They should put their
cuendillar factory to converting soldiers' armour instead of churning
out valuables. Imagine that: a soldier covered in cuendillar armour.
Quite invincible (to OP as well).
IMO it stinks.

Of possible interest... At Dragon*Con this year, someone asked if Aes
Sedai could make cuendillar armor, and if it would be resistant to the
One Power. Jordan's answer was to sternly say "Read And Find Out."

[Paul Lints]

Post by Umair
On a sidenote, making cuendillar was supposed to be VERY difficult.
With RJ showing us that its piece of cake, a whole lot of things are
possible. Like cuendillar armour/weaponry. They should put their
cuendillar factory to converting soldiers' armour instead of churning
out valuables. Imagine that: a soldier covered in cuendillar armour.
Quite invincible (to OP as well).
IMO it stinks.

Imagine not being able to move, because your "armor" is utterly
inflexible. Not a good thing in an age of melee combat.

Cuendillar was never supposed to be difficult in the Third Age, AS just
didn't know how to make it.

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Paul Lints

Post by Umair
On a sidenote, making cuendillar was supposed to be VERY difficult.
With RJ showing us that its piece of cake, a whole lot of things are
possible. Like cuendillar armour/weaponry. They should put their
cuendillar factory to converting soldiers' armour instead of churning
out valuables. Imagine that: a soldier covered in cuendillar armour.
Quite invincible (to OP as well).
IMO it stinks.

Imagine not being able to move, because your "armor" is utterly
inflexible. Not a good thing in an age of melee combat.
Cuendillar was never supposed to be difficult in the Third Age, AS just
didn't know how to make it.

Why would that be a problem? Just make it of different pieces with
appropriate places for leather and metal straps and buckles, and voila.
You can't make a hinged piece of armor, but using bolts you can make
hinges out of pieces of cuendillar armor.

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Frank van Schie
Why would that be a problem? Just make it of different pieces with
appropriate places for leather and metal straps and buckles, and voila.
You can't make a hinged piece of armor, but using bolts you can make
hinges out of pieces of cuendillar armor.

Course you can. Articulated armor is made up out of separate pieces
anyway, just Cuendillarise before final assembly (the rivets will need to
stay iron, of course). Just keep in mind that armor has to be fitted to
the person, much like a suit only more so, so you will not be able to gain
or lose any weight once it's made and you can't actually sell it to anyone
or pass it on to your children (regular armor stays iron and you can
readjust it when necessary).

What you can't make is mail. Although you could make chainmail with about
half the rings of cuendillar (if I remember correctly), but it would
require a novice to spend an awful lot of time manufacturing cuendillar
rings, since they'd have to be made one at a time.


Jasper

[Umair]

Post by Paul Lints
Imagine not being able to move, because your "armor" is utterly
inflexible. Not a good thing in an age of melee combat.
Cuendillar was never supposed to be difficult in the Third Age, AS just
didn't know how to make it.

Steel is as inflexible as cuendillar for a human wearing armour made
out of any of these.

If cuendillar was not easy to make, we shouldve been seeing a LOT more
of cuendillar artifacts from the AOL since they cannot be destroyed.
Granted that theyve been misplaced (buried under oceans and changing
landscape), but still !!

Another point: a significant amount of power-wrought weaponry has
survived the breaking, e.g. lan and rand's previous swords, mat's
spear, cairhienin king's sword etc. But we havent seen ONE single piece
of cuendillar armour/weaponry till now. Why? Surely the AOL aes sedai
shouldve made some. Infact the war of power shouldve compelled them to
create armour that could be effective against OP, given that it was
indiscriminately used in battle.

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by Umair

Post by Paul Lints
Imagine not being able to move, because your "armor" is utterly
inflexible. Not a good thing in an age of melee combat.
Cuendillar was never supposed to be difficult in the Third Age, AS just
didn't know how to make it.

Steel is as inflexible as cuendillar for a human wearing armour made
out of any of these.
If cuendillar was not easy to make, we shouldve been seeing a LOT more
of cuendillar artifacts from the AOL since they cannot be destroyed.
Granted that theyve been misplaced (buried under oceans and changing
landscape), but still !!

I have a little pet theory that cuendillar is not indestructible, but
simply thought to be so. Look at the seals, they're made of cuendillar
and they're breaking. Not that that proves anything because they're
special, but just to illustrate.

Post by Umair
Another point: a significant amount of power-wrought weaponry has
survived the breaking, e.g. lan and rand's previous swords, mat's
spear, cairhienin king's sword etc. But we havent seen ONE single piece
of cuendillar armour/weaponry till now. Why? Surely the AOL aes sedai
shouldve made some. Infact the war of power shouldve compelled them to
create armour that could be effective against OP, given that it was
indiscriminately used in battle.

I can't see why a cuendillar armor would be so much better than one
made of steel. I mean, the armour may be indestructible, but it still
transmit force to the wearer. If someone wore a breastplate of
cuendillar and was hitted by something big, the armour would not be
broken, but the wearer could still recieve some serious injury.

And on the matter of the OP, again, the armour may not be susceptible
to the OP, but wearer is. For example imagine some soldiers wearing
cuendillar armour, and imagine some AoL AS of the opposite side of the
conflict. Now the AS channels creating a huge fireball arround th
soldiers (the same thing Rand does in the battle of Carihien). What's
the result? Some of the ground has dissappeared, along with the
soldiers and all they wore... except the cuendillar armour that didn't
protect them in the least.

[BClubb]

Post by Antonio Contreras
I can't see why a cuendillar armor would be so much better than one
made of steel. I mean, the armour may be indestructible, but it still
transmit force to the wearer. If someone wore a breastplate of
cuendillar and was hitted by something big, the armour would not be
broken, but the wearer could still recieve some serious injury.

Since cuendillar is unbreakable regardless of thickness, perhaps the armor
could be made lighter. Lighter armor can have great benefits over the long
haul.

[BClubb]

Post by Antonio Contreras
I can't see why a cuendillar armor would be so much better than one
made of steel. I mean, the armour may be indestructible, but it still
transmit force to the wearer. If someone wore a breastplate of
cuendillar and was hitted by something big, the armour would not be
broken, but the wearer could still recieve some serious injury.

Can you make cuendillar out of anything? It might be easier and more
economical to make indestructible armor out of cloth or leather or tin,
anything that doesn't take the smith. I seem to recall that it takes many
days for a weaponsmith to make a chain shirt, for example. If instead you
could have a large t-shirt turned into cuendillar, it might be an easier
process.

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by BClubb
Can you make cuendillar out of anything? It might be easier and more

No. Iron is it.

Post by BClubb
economical to make indestructible armor out of cloth or leather or tin,
anything that doesn't take the smith. I seem to recall that it takes many
days for a weaponsmith to make a chain shirt, for example.

Mail takes much, much more than a mere few days, but it's not done by a
smith, or at least not a master. Some apprentices might be lowly enough to
work on it. A mail shirt in today's modern variant, not suitable for
actual use, tends to take many hundreds of man hours. Real mail shirts are
made with the ends of the rings flattened, drilled a hole into, and a
brass rivet inserted. Riveted mail, even in the hands of experts, probably
takes at least as long as today's fake mail makers.

Jasper

[David Chapman]

Post by Umair
Another point: a significant amount of power-wrought weaponry has
survived the breaking, e.g. lan and rand's previous swords, mat's
spear, cairhienin king's sword etc. But we havent seen ONE single piece
of cuendillar armour/weaponry till now. Why?

Because its very inflexibility is a liability. Steel has some flex in it,
and that absorbs part of the force of a blow. Without that flex, the first
parry you made with a cuendillar sword would break your wrist. It's far
easier to make steel that won't break or need sharpening.

As for armour, you'd have to make each piece separately. Time-consuming as
this would be, that's still not so great a handicap as fitting the pieces
together. You can't use cuendillar pins and hooks because you can't bend
them round to hold the pieces in place, and if you use regular steel pins
the armour will offer little more protection than if it were made of steel.

[Colin Zealley]

So make it of iron, then 'cuendillarise' it - same goes for chainmail.

A very inflexible sword is not a good thing, as you point out. But a very
inflexible breastplate is a *very* good thing. Force is transmitted over a
wider area, so less bruising occurs.

Colin

Post by David Chapman

Post by Umair
Another point: a significant amount of power-wrought weaponry has
survived the breaking, e.g. lan and rand's previous swords, mat's
spear, cairhienin king's sword etc. But we havent seen ONE single piece
of cuendillar armour/weaponry till now. Why?

Because its very inflexibility is a liability. Steel has some flex in it,
and that absorbs part of the force of a blow. Without that flex, the
first parry you made with a cuendillar sword would break your wrist. It's
far easier to make steel that won't break or need sharpening.
As for armour, you'd have to make each piece separately. Time-consuming as
this would be, that's still not so great a handicap as fitting the pieces
together. You can't use cuendillar pins and hooks because you can't bend
them round to hold the pieces in place, and if you use regular steel pins
the armour will offer little more protection than if it were made of steel.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by Colin Zealley
So make it of iron, then 'cuendillarise' it - same goes for chainmail.

An iron chainmail would turn into a solid piece of cuendillar. As has
been shown on the book and pointed some times in this thread, when you
try to turn into cuendillar two pieces of iron at once, they fuse
together.

Post by Colin Zealley
A very inflexible sword is not a good thing, as you point out. But a very
inflexible breastplate is a *very* good thing. Force is transmitted over a
wider area, so less bruising occurs.

I simply don't agree. Unless the breastplate fitted you perfectly the
force would only be transmitted to you in the borders, thus causing
severe injuries on those places. And as someone else has pointed out,
you could not gain or loose weight *ever* if you wanted to be able to
use the armour.

[Colin Zealley]

You're quite right as regards the chainmail - my mistake, of course.

But I don't accept your point on the plate armour issue. If you want impact
protection, a more rigid shield spreads the force across a wider area. Same
force, wider area = less force per square inch (or square cm, or whatever),
so less bruising.

Agreed that you can't change body weight much; but historically, steel plate
armour had exactly the same drawback. If you gained too much weight, past
what could be actered for by letting out the straps a bit, you'd have to
have it reforged.

If you're wealthy enough to afford plate armour in the first place, and
'cuendillaring' becomes a commerically available proposition, then
presumably you're wealthy enough to have a new piece reforged in steel, and
presumably you may well be wealthy enough to then have it cuendillared. And
at least the 'old' piece would retain its value to be sold on to someone a
bit smaller - should be quite a good second-hand market opportunity there,
come to think of it!

Colin

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by Colin Zealley
So make it of iron, then 'cuendillarise' it - same goes for chainmail.

An iron chainmail would turn into a solid piece of cuendillar. As has
been shown on the book and pointed some times in this thread, when you
try to turn into cuendillar two pieces of iron at once, they fuse
together.

Post by Colin Zealley
A very inflexible sword is not a good thing, as you point out. But a very
inflexible breastplate is a *very* good thing. Force is transmitted over a
wider area, so less bruising occurs.

I simply don't agree. Unless the breastplate fitted you perfectly the
force would only be transmitted to you in the borders, thus causing
severe injuries on those places. And as someone else has pointed out,
you could not gain or loose weight *ever* if you wanted to be able to
use the armour.

[Karsten]

Post by Colin Zealley

Post by Antonio Contreras
chainmail would turn into a solid piece of cuendillar. As has
been shown on the book and pointed some times in this thread, when you
try to turn into cuendillar two pieces of iron at once, they fuse
together.

You're quite right as regards the chainmail - my mistake, of course.

unless you have a blacksmith and an AS with too much time on his hand.
Shouldn't it be possible to make the chainmail, then wrap every piece of
metal, so none of the chains (?) touch each other. Then convert all the
chains (one by one) to cuendillar. But as stated: It would take forever.

Karsten

[Haldrik]

I'm not seeing a problem with making cuendillar armor. What would be
wrong with having cuendillar pins? as long as everything was made
separately i don't think they'd have trouble moving the tiny bit that
pins would have to move.

Haldrik

[zed246]

Post by Haldrik
I'm not seeing a problem with making cuendillar armor. What would be
wrong with having cuendillar pins? as long as everything was made
separately i don't think they'd have trouble moving the tiny bit that
pins would have to move.
Haldrik

The only way to make armor the way you describe is for cuendillar to
break cuendillar. I mean in order to build the armor while using the
cuendillar pins the pins must break a hole in the plates. But according
to the books having cuendillar unbreakable to any force. This should
include cuendillar itself.
The paradox is this: any force used to break cuendillar only makes it
stronger - so when trying to break cuendillar with other cuendillar you
wil only make them both stronger.

[James Bremner]

Post by zed246

Post by Haldrik
I'm not seeing a problem with making cuendillar armor. What would be
wrong with having cuendillar pins? as long as everything was made
separately i don't think they'd have trouble moving the tiny bit that
pins would have to move.
Haldrik

The only way to make armor the way you describe is for cuendillar to
break cuendillar. I mean in order to build the armor while using the
cuendillar pins the pins must break a hole in the plates. But according
to the books having cuendillar unbreakable to any force. This should
include cuendillar itself.
The paradox is this: any force used to break cuendillar only makes it
stronger - so when trying to break cuendillar with other cuendillar you
wil only make them both stronger.

See. Now that is just annoying. Its unbreakable, but if you hit it, it
becomes stronger. Now, setting aside the existence of larger infinities
and all that, how exactly would anyone KNOW that it is stronger? It was
unbreakable before, it is still unbreakable. Who can tell the
difference?

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by zed246
The only way to make armor the way you describe is for cuendillar to
break cuendillar. I mean in order to build the armor while using the
cuendillar pins the pins must break a hole in the plates. But according
to the books having cuendillar unbreakable to any force. This should
include cuendillar itself.
The paradox is this: any force used to break cuendillar only makes it
stronger - so when trying to break cuendillar with other cuendillar you
wil only make them both stronger.

You could use a cuendillar pin secured on the other side with a circlip,
either steel or possibly cuendillar (depending on if cuendillar is
flexible at all), but even with steel rivets holding the stuff together
you shouldn't really have a problem. Articulated armour rarely breaks at
the rivets to start with.


Jasper

[David Chapman]

Post by Haldrik
I'm not seeing a problem with making cuendillar armor. What would be
wrong with having cuendillar pins? as long as everything was made
separately i don't think they'd have trouble moving the tiny bit that
pins would have to move.

How were you planning to rivet the pieces together?

[Frank van Schie]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Haldrik
I'm not seeing a problem with making cuendillar armor. What would be
wrong with having cuendillar pins? as long as everything was made
separately i don't think they'd have trouble moving the tiny bit that
pins would have to move.

How were you planning to rivet the pieces together?

Rivets are permanent connections. Who cares if it fuses the components?
Rivet two pieces of metal together, then cuendillarize it. In fact,
forget the rivets, just hold two pieces of metal alongside eachother's
edges and work that mojo, and you'll have a unbreakable bond right there.

[David Chapman]

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by David Chapman
How were you planning to rivet the pieces together?

Rivets are permanent connections.

In armour they're also used for articulation of the joints. The problems
should become obvious even to those not versed in armouring at this point.

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Frank van Schie
Rivets are permanent connections.

Nope. They're also used as hinges.

Jasper

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by Colin Zealley
You're quite right as regards the chainmail - my mistake, of course.
But I don't accept your point on the plate armour issue. If you want impact
protection, a more rigid shield spreads the force across a wider area. Same
force, wider area = less force per square inch (or square cm, or whatever),
so less bruising.

I guess if you wore some padding costume beneath your cuendillar armour
it could work. BTW this is what was done with steel armour.

Anyway, if I was to make a cuendillar armour I would take a leather
costume and then sew sheets of cuendillar to it. Of course the holes
needed for sewing would have to be made in the steel prior to turning
it into cuendillar.

<snip to EOF>

[Tom Kelsall]

On 30 Sep 2005 03:04:05 -0700, the keys started rattling, and "Antonio

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by Colin Zealley
You're quite right as regards the chainmail - my mistake, of course.
But I don't accept your point on the plate armour issue. If you want impact
protection, a more rigid shield spreads the force across a wider area. Same
force, wider area = less force per square inch (or square cm, or whatever),
so less bruising.

I guess if you wore some padding costume beneath your cuendillar armour
it could work. BTW this is what was done with steel armour.
Anyway, if I was to make a cuendillar armour I would take a leather
costume and then sew sheets of cuendillar to it. Of course the holes
needed for sewing would have to be made in the steel prior to turning
it into cuendillar.
<snip to EOF>

What's wrong with making Cuendillar armour plates from steel which
already had holes drilled down the sides; one back and one front for
the body. Then when they're made lace them together with thick
leather thongs and pull tight. I really don't see an engineering
problem, when you use steel as a template from which to make your
pieces.

[James Bremner]

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by Colin Zealley
So make it of iron, then 'cuendillarise' it - same goes for chainmail.

An iron chainmail would turn into a solid piece of cuendillar. As has
been shown on the book and pointed some times in this thread, when you
try to turn into cuendillar two pieces of iron at once, they fuse
together.

Could you make the chain mail, but have each ring wrapped in a piece of
cloth stopping it from touching the next piece. A Novice or six set to
work for a day or so, cuendillarising the individual chains, or you get
whichever of the Annoying Sisters can do it to make a Ter Angreal that
does the same job. Then you burn off the cloth and voila, cuendillar
chainmail. Awkward, yes. But do
able.

[David Chapman]

Post by James Bremner
Could you make the chain mail, but have each ring wrapped in a piece of
cloth stopping it from touching the next piece.

No. You. Fucking. Couldn't.

I wish people would do some basic research before offering the same dumbass
clueless ideas - and by "basic research" I mean seeing a piece of chainmail
at some point in their life. Leaving aside for a moment the difficulty of
wrapping links which are usually around 1cm from outside edge to outside
edge, there are *tens of thousands* of links in each mailshirt. And you
want to wrap them all individually?

[Matt Schroeder]

Post by David Chapman

Post by James Bremner
Could you make the chain mail, but have each ring wrapped in a piece of
cloth stopping it from touching the next piece.

No. You. Fucking. Couldn't.

rest of rant clipped

Wow, did you think he was asking you to do the wrapping personnally? I
know the lack of a non-axiomatic gender neutral third person singular
pronoun is one of my two biggest annoyances with English, so there
could have been some sort of misunderstanding. Your response seems a
bit, well, ludicrously harsh otherwise.

cheers,
matt.

[Lorfarius]

Post by David Chapman

Post by James Bremner
Could you make the chain mail, but have each ring wrapped in a piece of
cloth stopping it from touching the next piece.

No. You. Fucking. Couldn't.
I wish people would do some basic research before offering the same
dumbass clueless ideas - and by "basic research" I mean seeing a piece of
chainmail at some point in their life. Leaving aside for a moment the
difficulty of wrapping links which are usually around 1cm from outside
edge to outside edge, there are *tens of thousands* of links in each
mailshirt. And you want to wrap them all individually?

They did it on the Lord of the Rings set for each individual piece of
chainmail armour. Granted they were plastic but each contained thousands of
intact rings.

[David Chapman]

Post by Lorfarius

Post by David Chapman

Post by James Bremner
Could you make the chain mail, but have each ring wrapped in a piece of
cloth stopping it from touching the next piece.

No. You. Fucking. Couldn't.
I wish people would do some basic research before offering the same
dumbass clueless ideas - and by "basic research" I mean seeing a piece of
chainmail at some point in their life. Leaving aside for a moment the
difficulty of wrapping links which are usually around 1cm from outside
edge to outside edge, there are *tens of thousands* of links in each
mailshirt. And you want to wrap them all individually?

They did it on the Lord of the Rings set for each individual piece of
chainmail armour.

Must ... not ... strangle ...

The LotR propmasters did *not* wrap every individual ring in cloth, which is
the subject under discussion. In fact, as you pointed out they didn't even
use real chain links. I know a guy who makes chainmail for LARPers, and
I've watched him work. Let me tell you - it is not quick. Having to wrap
every link in cloth would up the time at least threefold, which would be
impractical to say the least.

Even then, all you'd wind up with is a chainmail shirt which will never need
links replacing. The purpose of chainmail is to prevent you being cut, and
steel does that as well as cuendillar would. Its main protection against
impact comes from the padded leather jerkin you would wear underneath to
prevent chafing.

[Lorfarius]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Lorfarius

Post by David Chapman

Post by James Bremner
Could you make the chain mail, but have each ring wrapped in a piece of
cloth stopping it from touching the next piece.

No. You. Fucking. Couldn't.
I wish people would do some basic research before offering the same
dumbass clueless ideas - and by "basic research" I mean seeing a piece of
chainmail at some point in their life. Leaving aside for a moment the
difficulty of wrapping links which are usually around 1cm from outside
edge to outside edge, there are *tens of thousands* of links in each
mailshirt. And you want to wrap them all individually?

They did it on the Lord of the Rings set for each individual piece of
chainmail armour.

Must ... not ... strangle ...
The LotR propmasters did *not* wrap every individual ring in cloth, which
is the subject under discussion. In fact, as you pointed out they didn't
even use real chain links. I know a guy who makes chainmail for LARPers,
and I've watched him work. Let me tell you - it is not quick. Having to
wrap every link in cloth would up the time at least threefold, which would
be impractical to say the least.
Even then, all you'd wind up with is a chainmail shirt which will never
need links replacing. The purpose of chainmail is to prevent you being
cut, and steel does that as well as cuendillar would. Its main protection
against impact comes from the padded leather jerkin you would wear
underneath to prevent chafing.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

;) I was winding you up

[David Chapman]

Post by Lorfarius
;) I was winding you up

Fine. I'm killfiling you because you're a fucktard.

[Lorfarius]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Lorfarius
;) I was winding you up

Fine. I'm killfiling you because you're a fucktard.

Lol and that bothers me because?

[Jasper Janssen]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 22:45:24 +0100, "David Chapman"

Post by David Chapman
Even then, all you'd wind up with is a chainmail shirt which will never need
links replacing. The purpose of chainmail is to prevent you being cut, and
steel does that as well as cuendillar would. Its main protection against
impact comes from the padded leather jerkin you would wear underneath to
prevent chafing.

To be fair, the main problem with mail is that longbows and crossbows will
punch right through it. Cuendillar chainmail doesn't.


Jasper

[James Bremner]

Post by David Chapman

Post by James Bremner
Could you make the chain mail, but have each ring wrapped in a piece of
cloth stopping it from touching the next piece.

No. You. Fucking. Couldn't.

Yes. You. Fucking. Could.

It would take you ages, but it would be possible.

Post by David Chapman
I wish people would do some basic research before offering the same dumbass
clueless ideas - and by "basic research" I mean seeing a piece of chainmail
at some point in their life. Leaving aside for a moment the difficulty of
wrapping links which are usually around 1cm from outside edge to outside
edge, there are *tens of thousands* of links in each mailshirt. And you
want to wrap them all individually?

No. I want someone else to do it for me.

Post by David Chapman
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

[Michelle]

Post by James Bremner
It would take you ages, but it would be possible.

Post by David Chapman
I wish people would do some basic research before offering the same dumbass
clueless ideas - and by "basic research" I mean seeing a piece of chainmail
at some point in their life. Leaving aside for a moment the difficulty of
wrapping links which are usually around 1cm from outside edge to outside
edge, there are *tens of thousands* of links in each mailshirt. And you
want to wrap them all individually?

Real-world semi-example...The guys that put together the suits of
chainmail armor for the LOTR movies. They spent ages in a little room
cutting plastic pipe into thin slices and then hooking them together to
make their chainmail. Apparently, by the end of filming, they had worn
away the finger prints off their fingers for a while. (Not to mention,
man, wouldn't you be bored spending two years hooking together little
plastic rings? I'd go nuts.)

Possible, maybe, but practical seems to be something else. Although, I
suppose wrapping links of chainmail could become the new novice
punishment. ;)

Michelle
Flutist

[Geoffrey Willmore]

"David Chapman" wrote in message

Post by David Chapman
I wish people would do some basic research before offering the same dumbass
clueless ideas - and by "basic research" I mean seeing a piece of chainmail
at some point in their life. Leaving aside for a moment the difficulty of
wrapping links which are usually around 1cm from outside edge to outside
edge, there are *tens of thousands* of links in each mailshirt. And you
want to wrap them all individually?

I confess my humble ignorance about chainmails. But could one not do
something with some sort of varnish? I mean: dip the iron chainmail in the
varnish, keep it moving while it dries (with a simple water-powered
mechanism for example) to avoid rings sticking together, repeat the
operation enough times. It does not seem aburd to me that one could get
enough isolation that way.

Well, this is quite useless speculation. So it is infinitely important to
carry on.

[steveo]

Post by Geoffrey Willmore
"David Chapman" wrote in message

Post by David Chapman
I wish people would do some basic research before offering the same dumbass
clueless ideas - and by "basic research" I mean seeing a piece of chainmail
at some point in their life. Leaving aside for a moment the difficulty of
wrapping links which are usually around 1cm from outside edge to outside
edge, there are *tens of thousands* of links in each mailshirt. And you
want to wrap them all individually?

I confess my humble ignorance about chainmails. But could one not do
something with some sort of varnish? I mean: dip the iron chainmail in the
varnish, keep it moving while it dries (with a simple water-powered
mechanism for example) to avoid rings sticking together, repeat the
operation enough times. It does not seem aburd to me that one could get
enough isolation that way.
Well, this is quite useless speculation. So it is infinitely important to
carry on.

I was thinking wax.

steveo

[Jasper Janssen]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 17:02:36 +0100, "David Chapman"

Post by David Chapman

Post by James Bremner
Could you make the chain mail, but have each ring wrapped in a piece of
cloth stopping it from touching the next piece.

No. You. Fucking. Couldn't.
I wish people would do some basic research before offering the same dumbass
clueless ideas - and by "basic research" I mean seeing a piece of chainmail
at some point in their life. Leaving aside for a moment the difficulty of
wrapping links which are usually around 1cm from outside edge to outside

A centimeter? You must have seen the crappy modern stuff. More like 5 mm
outside diameter for the good stuff. 6-in-1 pattern rather than 4-in-1, to
boot.

Post by David Chapman
edge, there are *tens of thousands* of links in each mailshirt. And you
want to wrap them all individually?

Well, actually, a mail shirt is only about 10.000 rings with modern
construction, so 20-40.000 max, I'd say. You could dip all the rings in
wax or something a little sturdier than that prior to assembly. Rubber or
something. Then cuendillarise each individual ring (and that means a whole
squadron of novices for a year, probably), and put the whole thing in a
smelter's furnace for a little to burn off the plastic.

Jasper

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Jasper Janssen
Well, actually, a mail shirt is only about 10.000 rings with modern
construction, so 20-40.000 max, I'd say. You could dip all the rings in
wax or something a little sturdier than that prior to assembly. Rubber or
something. Then cuendillarise each individual ring (and that means a whole
squadron of novices for a year, probably), and put the whole thing in a
smelter's furnace for a little to burn off the plastic.

Or else just hold it up and thread it all with strands of Air. Or just
hold it up and separate each ring one-by-one and cuendillarize, one by
one. If you're assuming channelers, you don't have to consider hand-work.

[Velk]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Just Finished Crossroads of Twilight.
Just redead the series in preparation for book 11.
I originally bought CoT when if first came out and got half way though
it before I decided that nothing was going to happen, I would just end
up dissapointed so I decided to wait will book 11 came out and read it
with that. Boy was I right, I am not sure I have ever read a 700 page
book where less happened.
I could hardly believe that Egwene on her own could be this stupid but
certainly not with Gareth Bryne helping her who is by everyone's
accounts a brilliant general.

What on earth makes you think she even told him, let alone asked him
his opinion first ?

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Okay I will assume for a moment that it turned the chain not into a
flexible chain but one solid piece (no reason whatsoever to believe
this is the case since all the links are individual pieces of iron).

This was covered previously.

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
All the tower then needs to do is shatter the stone it is anchored to
and it will sink to the bottom of the bay, so still Egwene accomplished
nothing.

A thing about rivers in general is that they are not of uniform depth,
particularly on the edges.

So it's not so much a matter of removing the supports at the ends of
the chain, but doing so, and then digging the entire width of the river
down to a depth where the chain won't interfere with shipping by say,
ripping the bottom off the hulls of large ships.

This wasn't a problem when it was flexible, it would sink and follow
the ground, but as a bar instead of a chain, it's a significant
problem.

[Scott Dallmeyer]

Post by Velk
So it's not so much a matter of removing the supports at the ends of
the chain, but doing so, and then digging the entire width of the river
down to a depth where the chain won't interfere with shipping by say,
ripping the bottom off the hulls of large ships.
This wasn't a problem when it was flexible, it would sink and follow
the ground, but as a bar instead of a chain, it's a significant
problem.

The real problem is that Egwene decided to do this "trick" within
the enemy sphere of influence. This where they have the ability and
time to come up with whatever solution is necessary to get the harbor
open again.

If they did cut the solid chain off and just drop it to the bottom of
the bay, it is a giant U so it will just flop over and lie on bottom of
the the bay. But don't you think 13 sisters from the Tower with all
the angreal and sa'angreal at their disposal couldn't pick it up and
just move it somewhere else?

Or even better, just rig it up like a giant gate. Lift one end with a
bunch of winches. Any city of that size would have the resources to do
this especially if they are in the process of building a giant palace
bigger than the White Tower for Eladia's hubris.

This just goes to show that the Tower has many options at their
disposal because Egwene made the mistake of doing this within the
Tower's sphere of influence. Do it downstream where they have a much
harder time doing anything about it. Make them come out to fight for
it since you are the one with the big army.

She is still a moron.

[Colin Zealley]

Yes, she was pretty stupid.

But hell, she's still a teenager, more or less - so are the rest of them,
except Nynaeve - and she acts enough like one that it's difficult to see how
the Three Rivers Circle ever decided to make her a Wisdom unless it was
purely on her healing capabilities. And with all due respect, young people
do have a tendency to be over-optimistic in their modelling of consequences
of their actions. (That's a long-winded way of saying 'they're often
cocky').

Colin

Post by Scott Dallmeyer

Post by Velk
So it's not so much a matter of removing the supports at the ends of
the chain, but doing so, and then digging the entire width of the river
down to a depth where the chain won't interfere with shipping by say,
ripping the bottom off the hulls of large ships.
This wasn't a problem when it was flexible, it would sink and follow
the ground, but as a bar instead of a chain, it's a significant
problem.

The real problem is that Egwene decided to do this "trick" within
the enemy sphere of influence. This where they have the ability and
time to come up with whatever solution is necessary to get the harbor
open again.
If they did cut the solid chain off and just drop it to the bottom of
the bay, it is a giant U so it will just flop over and lie on bottom of
the the bay. But don't you think 13 sisters from the Tower with all
the angreal and sa'angreal at their disposal couldn't pick it up and
just move it somewhere else?
Or even better, just rig it up like a giant gate. Lift one end with a
bunch of winches. Any city of that size would have the resources to do
this especially if they are in the process of building a giant palace
bigger than the White Tower for Eladia's hubris.
This just goes to show that the Tower has many options at their
disposal because Egwene made the mistake of doing this within the
Tower's sphere of influence. Do it downstream where they have a much
harder time doing anything about it. Make them come out to fight for
it since you are the one with the big army.
She is still a moron.

[Elfseeker]

Post by Colin Zealley
But hell, she's still a teenager, more or less - so are the rest of them,
except Nynaeve - and she acts enough like one that it's difficult to see
how the Three Rivers Circle ever decided to make her a Wisdom unless it
was purely on her healing capabilities. And with all due respect, young
people do have a tendency to be over-optimistic in their modelling of
consequences of their actions. (That's a long-winded way of saying
'they're often cocky').

Not strictly true. By measure of their local traditions, they are adults(or
the next best thing to it). As such, their mindset would most definately not
be the same as that being evident in the 17 and 18 yearolds of today. And
certainly not the city-variety. These people have nature more or less on
their doorstep. And while I can certainly see Egwene blithely ignoring all
lessons it may have tried to teach her, but Nyaneve would certainly be well
aware of just how far the rest of the world will bend to her will(that is to
say, almost not at all).
Elayne and Aviendha is two extremes of the meter. The one unlikely to have
been out of an environment where every human and their various relatives
bowed and scraped at her every look(with the natural exeptions of her
mother, the 'royal Aes Sedai' and (possibly to a lesser extent)the Captain
of the Guard. Possibly also her sword defender, whatever his name was.
Aviendha....Well, if she does not know the limits of what she can do now(far
less by the time we first see her)(Power notwithstanding), she never will.

Of course, in light of how adult they are supposed to be by their own
societies, only makes them that much more brainless.

And as for the Chain-thing at TV...One at the bank, Shielding(protectively)
the Changer. If the Shielder were strong enough(Egwene herself, pr'haps?),
the Tower would only be able to stand and watch. To go out in a rowboat that
close to Tar Valon(and, I assume by the sequence of events, on the Tower
side)...short of a direct order from Halima, I cannot make myself believe
she did so without the slightest protest or hesitation.

If she is to maintain a single shred of intelligence and/or decency in my
eyes, one of two things need to happen;
-We need to be showed(in KOD?) that she -wanted- to be caught.
-We need to be showed(in KOD?) that Halima did indeed Tell her to do so,
with unprecedented success. Why risk it in the first place? Hey, I'm no
centuries-old slave of Blackest Night. :P

[Davian]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Just Finished Crossroads of Twilight.
Just redead the series in preparation for book 11.
I originally bought CoT when if first came out and got half way though
it before I decided that nothing was going to happen, I would just end
up dissapointed so I decided to wait will book 11 came out and read it
with that. Boy was I right, I am not sure I have ever read a 700 page
book where less happened.

Others have covered this... Why it will work, why it won't. I just want to
say that the entire plan makes little sense for the reasons given in the book.
To end the war with the least amount of bloodshed as possible, a coordinated
attack on the Tower using troops and circles of Aes Sedai pouring out of
Gateways is the way to go. Kill only as many soldiers as you have to, and
shield every AS you see before they can link.

But she instead decides on a siege, to prevent as much suffering as possible.
Unless I'm grossly misinformed though, a siege will generally result in both a
greater amount of suffering and a more generalized form. The entire city
ends up starving for week after week, instead of just dead soldiers, you have
suffering soldiers and civilians. Then at the end, unless you starve them
for an extremely long time... you still have to launch a conventional assault
upon the weakened forces, killing just as many soldiers. Perhaps more, since
you wouldn't have the element of surprise that a Travelling assault would
have.

Similarly, the second reason given doesn't hold water. Egwene doesn't want
to launch a Travelling attack because then the Tower would learn how to
Travel. This reason is just pure bullshit. It's inconceivable to me that
the Tower has not already learned Travelling. All it would take is one spy in
Egwene's camp. One defector (such as Nicola), one Black Ajah member (such as
Delana) and the jig is up. Travelling is too important of an advantage for
them not to realize the power it has. And by it's very nature, it makes it
easy to report the discovery and method back to Elaida.

I know that Elaida didn't place any spies in Egwene's camp... but the fact
that she didn't (unless Jordan changes his mind and they "discover" some spies
that Elaida just hasn't had occasion to think of 'on camera') is just author
induced stupidity of the highest degree. Elaidia should have had her own
dozen spies among Egwene's people, and should already have known of Travelling
before it was ever used against her. Possibly if Egwene had kept the
discovery to herself and the Wondergirls, you could have an argument about
keeping it secret, but you just can't keep something like that secret from 1/3
of the Aes Sedai when you're freely telling another 1/3. All you can do is
get your one first strike advantage out of it, and hope it happens before they
are informed.

[David Chapman]

Post by Davian
It's inconceivable to
me that the Tower has not already learned Travelling. All it would take
is one spy in Egwene's camp. One defector (such as Nicola), one Black
Ajah member (such as Delana) and the jig is up. Travelling is too
important of an advantage for them not to realize the power it has. And
by it's very nature, it makes it easy to report the discovery and method
back to Elaida.

Can you explain to me how discovering a secret lost since the AOL just as
you need it is easy to report without arousing suspicion? The Black Ajah
certainly can't do it - for that matter, Alviarin already knows how to
Travel.

[Davian]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Davian
It's inconceivable to
me that the Tower has not already learned Travelling. All it would take
is one spy in Egwene's camp. One defector (such as Nicola), one Black
Ajah member (such as Delana) and the jig is up. Travelling is too
important of an advantage for them not to realize the power it has. And
by it's very nature, it makes it easy to report the discovery and method
back to Elaida.

Can you explain to me how discovering a secret lost since the AOL just as
you need it is easy to report without arousing suspicion? The Black Ajah
certainly can't do it - for that matter, Alviarin already knows how to
Travel.

The Salidar Aes Sedai taught every one of their members how to Travel. Then
kept no controls over how they used it. All they had to do was leave camp,
Travel to the Tower, give a lesson or two in how to do it, then Travel back.
Even if, by some miracle, Elaidia didn't send enough that they could link and
form a Gateway back to the Tower, once they arrived at Tar Valon they could
find a way to contrive a meeting and pass on knowledge of how to do the weave.

For the Black Ajah there are more difficulties for reporting it, but if they
wanted to, they could find a way.

As I said, it strains my suspension of disbelief that with every Salidar Aes
Sedai learning how to Travel, the Tower AS still do not know how. It would
mean Elaidia sent not a single spy to watch them. Fifty sisters to attack
the Black Tower, but not a single one to join a gathering of hundreds of rebel
Aes Sedai where they could easily blend in. Not even one. She's supposed
to be stupid, but *that* stupid?

In any event, believing that it will remain secret is even stupider. Nicola's
disappearance and possible defection, after she was observed trying to watch
how Gateways are formed... as I said, I believe it's happened already. And I
don't think I need to comment on the pointlessness of trying to siege a city
where Aes Sedai can Travel to bring in as much food as they need. The
snoozefest in Camelyn already shows that.

[David Chapman]

Post by Davian
As I said, it strains my suspension of disbelief that with every Salidar
Aes Sedai learning how to Travel, the Tower AS still do not know how. It
would mean Elaidia sent not a single spy to watch them. Fifty sisters
to attack the Black Tower, but not a single one to join a gathering of
hundreds of rebel Aes Sedai where they could easily blend in. Not even
one. She's supposed to be stupid, but *that* stupid?

Ah, but she's had a Foretelling, remember? She's utterly convinced that the
White Tower will reunite under her no matter what.

[Jasper Janssen]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:30:22 +0100, "David Chapman"

Post by David Chapman

Post by Davian
It's inconceivable to
me that the Tower has not already learned Travelling. All it would take
is one spy in Egwene's camp. One defector (such as Nicola), one Black
Ajah member (such as Delana) and the jig is up. Travelling is too
important of an advantage for them not to realize the power it has. And
by it's very nature, it makes it easy to report the discovery and method
back to Elaida.

Can you explain to me how discovering a secret lost since the AOL just as
you need it is easy to report without arousing suspicion? The Black Ajah

How do you think? "Hey, Elaida? I was over at the Rebel Aes Sedai camp,
trying to see what I could learn about their plans since it was on ym way
anyway.. guess what? <opens gateway>"


Jasper

[Leigh Butler]

I must be bored...

Davian wrote:

<The ending of COT>

Post by Davian
Others have covered this... Why it will work, why it won't. I just want to
say that the entire plan makes little sense for the reasons given in the book.
To end the war with the least amount of bloodshed as possible, a coordinated
attack on the Tower using troops and circles of Aes Sedai pouring out of
Gateways is the way to go. Kill only as many soldiers as you have to, and
shield every AS you see before they can link.

You aren't thinking that through. Even assuming that the Rebel AS don't
decide that even providing Gateways for soldiers to pour through and
kill people constitutes using the OP as a weapon, the Tower AS will
certainly be under no constraints to defend themselves once the
soldiers get there.

Doing it that way would be mass slaughter. Including Rebel AS in the
sortie (so that *they* are also forced to defend themselves once placed
in danger) would probably end up decimating Tar Valon.

Post by Davian
But she instead decides on a siege, to prevent as much suffering as possible.
Unless I'm grossly misinformed though, a siege will generally result in both a
greater amount of suffering and a more generalized form. The entire city
ends up starving for week after week, instead of just dead soldiers, you have
suffering soldiers and civilians. Then at the end, unless you starve them
for an extremely long time... you still have to launch a conventional assault
upon the weakened forces, killing just as many soldiers. Perhaps more, since
you wouldn't have the element of surprise that a Travelling assault would
have.

What suffering? Egwene's "siege", up until the cuendillar trick, was
one only in name. Nobody in Tar Valon was being deprived of a damn
thing.

And Egwene knew that would be the case. What she's trying to do, the
way I read it, is wage a psychological war in the hopes of avoiding a
real one. When you really really really don't want to kill anyone on
the opposite side, that tends to limit your options in how to go about
waging war.

Even the cuendillar trick is more of the same, really. "Look what we
can do! If we can make cuendillar, what else have we got up our
sleeve?" If she can convince the TAS that they have no chance of
winning, then that might force Elaida into conceding without a fight,
and then everyone wins.

This isn't a war, this is a political power game. It includes the
possibility of violence, but (Egwene hopes) not the inevitability of
it.

Post by Davian
Similarly, the second reason given doesn't hold water. Egwene doesn't want
to launch a Travelling attack because then the Tower would learn how to
Travel. This reason is just pure bullshit. It's inconceivable to me that
the Tower has not already learned Travelling.

And yet we know they have not.

Alviarin knows Traveling, but somehow I doubt she's brought that up to
anyone not in her little club. Or even in it, for that matter. It gives
her too much advantage.

Post by Davian
All it would take is one spy in
Egwene's camp. One defector (such as Nicola), one Black Ajah member (such as
Delana) and the jig is up.

Well, and maybe it is, re: Nicola. However, I don't see how the idea
that a traitor and/or a spy could reveal the secret of Traveling to
Elaida does anything for your argument that Egwene is stupid for not
wanting to just go and blatantly show it off to her.

Post by Davian
I know that Elaida didn't place any spies in Egwene's camp... but the fact
that she didn't (unless Jordan changes his mind and they "discover" some spies
that Elaida just hasn't had occasion to think of 'on camera') is just author
induced stupidity of the highest degree.

Well, this is pretty subjective. I'll just say that it's been shown
that (a) Alviarin has been doing a very good job of undermining
everything that Elaida wants to accomplish, and (b) Elaida is not
exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer anyway.

Alviarin could have made sure, if Elaida did actually place any spies
in Eg's camp, that they were all her own people. Just as one
possibility. Or she's intercepting and/or altering all their reports.
And so on.

Or there are no spies, and Elaida's stupid. Whatever. She *is* stupid -
or at least willful, narrow-minded, and blind to what she doesn't want
to see, which amounts to the same thing in my book. That's how she's
been written from the start. I'm not claiming that RJ's the world's
most consistent author, but I really don't see how staying true to a
*character's* stupidity translates into the *author's* stupidity.

[zed246]

I only wish to add to all that NO Aes Sedai who had taken the oaths can
possibly Travel to a place where the cutting effect of the gateway
might kill people.

And about the difficulty of making cuelindar, well you must notice that
only a few on the SAS has been able to make it in a reasonable rate. So
one might suspect that a similar situation existed in AOL: only a few
strong in the Talent could make it in a few seconds. the others would
have needed hours to make a single sword. So cuelindar weapon industry
isn't likely. Probably they've found something better suited for a fast
rate production line, such as the power-wrought swords we do see.

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by zed246
I only wish to add to all that NO Aes Sedai who had taken the oaths can
possibly Travel to a place where the cutting effect of the gateway
might kill people.

Why? The 1st Oath says: "Never to use the OP as a weapon except..."

IMHO an AS would be able to convince herself that she is not using the
OP as a weapon, she is using the OP to open a gateway. The infortunate
deaths of those who might be at the other end of the gateway when it
opens is not the intended effect of her use, but a "side effect", and
can be thought of as an accident.

I don't think that an AS would be able to open a gateway where someone
stands in order to kill him, but opening a gateway at some random place
and accidentally killing someone in the process is a different matter.

[Lorfarius]

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by zed246
I only wish to add to all that NO Aes Sedai who had taken the oaths can
possibly Travel to a place where the cutting effect of the gateway
might kill people.

Why? The 1st Oath says: "Never to use the OP as a weapon except..."
IMHO an AS would be able to convince herself that she is not using the
OP as a weapon, she is using the OP to open a gateway. The infortunate
deaths of those who might be at the other end of the gateway when it
opens is not the intended effect of her use, but a "side effect", and
can be thought of as an accident.
I don't think that an AS would be able to open a gateway where someone
stands in order to kill him, but opening a gateway at some random place
and accidentally killing someone in the process is a different matter.

Yet we have no idea what will happen if an AS breaks an oath by accident.
For all we know there could be a backlash from the Oathrod.

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by Lorfarius

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by zed246
I only wish to add to all that NO Aes Sedai who had taken the oaths can
possibly Travel to a place where the cutting effect of the gateway
might kill people.

Why? The 1st Oath says: "Never to use the OP as a weapon except..."
IMHO an AS would be able to convince herself that she is not using the
OP as a weapon, she is using the OP to open a gateway. The infortunate
deaths of those who might be at the other end of the gateway when it
opens is not the intended effect of her use, but a "side effect", and
can be thought of as an accident.
I don't think that an AS would be able to open a gateway where someone
stands in order to kill him, but opening a gateway at some random place
and accidentally killing someone in the process is a different matter.

Yet we have no idea what will happen if an AS breaks an oath by accident.
For all we know there could be a backlash from the Oathrod.

In a sense we have. We've seen lots of AS telling the made-up tale
about the Read Ajah creating false dragons and Logain being one of
them. Those words are not true, but they can pronounce them because
they believe them to be true. I think the same principle would apply to
the 1st Oath. If an AS accidentaly kills someone with the power she may
not suffer any consequences, because she didn't intend to use the OP as
a weapon.

Furthermore, for all we know, the oaths limit your actions, but they
don't punish you if, somehow, you circumvent them.

[Davian]

Post by Lorfarius

Post by Antonio Contreras
I don't think that an AS would be able to open a gateway where someone
stands in order to kill him, but opening a gateway at some random place
and accidentally killing someone in the process is a different matter.

Yet we have no idea what will happen if an AS breaks an oath by accident.
For all we know there could be a backlash from the Oathrod.

Of course we have seen it. Despite the first oath, Aes Sedai can speak
anything they *believe* to be true, whether it is true or not. If they
suddenly find out they were wrong, nothing happens.

--
Jeff

Davian / Dearic (Bloodhoof)

[Elfseeker]

Just wants to add a piece on Eqwene's options. She could open a series of
Gateways into the Tower Yard or thereabouts, SAS leading the 'assault',
soldiers following. Supposedly gaining surprise(don't see how she couldn't,
but that may be just me), Weaves going out from second 1 to bind, shield,
then render unconcious whomsoever they encounter of 'the other side'.
(original notion was having them utilize 'hammers of air' or suchlike to
knock sisters and guards to the ground, shields and ropes following closely,
and being tied off. The soldiers? They'd be left behind, one or two at the
time, to make sure no sister(with their 'unweaving' option) woke before they
would be allowed to.

Alternately, one of those spies(before they were rooted out and
'rooted'<g>)could make their way to Elaida's room, and port out with Eg and
co ready to jump through the other way. (While the Big Baby's not there,
preferably. Somewhere in the stairwell up to her room'd work too, I suppose,
as that supposedly tends to be rather empty, these days. :P

Heck, she'd know the place well enough herself to jump right there with
however many it would take. NO bloodshed, and nobody being the wiser until
it's too late. Anyone choosing to be lethal in their protest would likely
have caused bloodshed no matter what.


Egwene, ask Siuan(and Bryne) to tell you what to do, then parrot that back
to the Hall. You yourself quite obviously do not have the faintest clue.


And now that she's caught, I get these visions of the -White- Tower 'rent in
blood and fire'.
Ashaman-messes notwithstanding, I'd be very surprised indeed if Rand did
nothing upon hearing of it(Which event I am pretty sure will have to happen
if this is to be resolved any book soon).

Where's Mat and co these days?

[Davian]

Post by Leigh Butler
I must be bored...
<The ending of COT>

Post by Davian
Others have covered this... Why it will work, why it won't. I just want to
say that the entire plan makes little sense for the reasons given in the book.
To end the war with the least amount of bloodshed as possible, a coordinated
attack on the Tower using troops and circles of Aes Sedai pouring out of
Gateways is the way to go. Kill only as many soldiers as you have to, and
shield every AS you see before they can link.

You aren't thinking that through. Even assuming that the Rebel AS don't
decide that even providing Gateways for soldiers to pour through and
kill people constitutes using the OP as a weapon, the Tower AS will
certainly be under no constraints to defend themselves once the
soldiers get there.
Doing it that way would be mass slaughter. Including Rebel AS in the
sortie (so that *they* are also forced to defend themselves once placed
in danger) would probably end up decimating Tar Valon.

I'm sorry Leigh, I just don't agree with you. Would there be bloodshed?
Absolutely. Loss of life, even among the attackers? Definitely. But I see
all of that as inevitable anyways. The only way to minimize the loss (on
both sides) is a single, swift, decisive strike. Preferably with the element
of suprise. IMO, even parking her army in front of Tar Valon was a mistake.
She should have attacked a completely unprepared Tower Guard with an assault
launched from Murrandy.

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
But she instead decides on a siege, to prevent as much suffering as possible.
Unless I'm grossly misinformed though, a siege will generally result in both a
greater amount of suffering and a more generalized form. The entire city
ends up starving for week after week, instead of just dead soldiers, you have
suffering soldiers and civilians. Then at the end, unless you starve them
for an extremely long time... you still have to launch a conventional assault
upon the weakened forces, killing just as many soldiers. Perhaps more, since
you wouldn't have the element of surprise that a Travelling assault would
have.

What suffering? Egwene's "siege", up until the cuendillar trick, was
one only in name. Nobody in Tar Valon was being deprived of a damn
thing.

The fact that she has been wildly ineffective in her chosen course of action
does not change the destructiveness of the course of action should she
succeed.

Post by Leigh Butler
And Egwene knew that would be the case. What she's trying to do, the
way I read it, is wage a psychological war in the hopes of avoiding a
real one. When you really really really don't want to kill anyone on
the opposite side, that tends to limit your options in how to go about
waging war.
Even the cuendillar trick is more of the same, really. "Look what we
can do! If we can make cuendillar, what else have we got up our
sleeve?" If she can convince the TAS that they have no chance of
winning, then that might force Elaida into conceding without a fight,
and then everyone wins.
This isn't a war, this is a political power game. It includes the
possibility of violence, but (Egwene hopes) not the inevitability of
it.

Sorry again, but I read that completely differently. Egwene intended to
sucessfully lay siege to Tar Valon. And finally has done so.

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
Similarly, the second reason given doesn't hold water. Egwene doesn't want
to launch a Travelling attack because then the Tower would learn how to
Travel. This reason is just pure bullshit. It's inconceivable to me that
the Tower has not already learned Travelling.

And yet we know they have not.

A fact that, while true, strains credibility.

Post by Leigh Butler
Alviarin knows Traveling, but somehow I doubt she's brought that up to
anyone not in her little club. Or even in it, for that matter. It gives
her too much advantage.

She won't. Messanna has forbidden it. That should have been mostly
irrelevant though, considering how freely the knowledge has spread among the
Salidar Aes Sedai, both Darkfriend and non-Darkfriend.

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
All it would take is one spy in
Egwene's camp. One defector (such as Nicola), one Black Ajah member (such as
Delana) and the jig is up.

Well, and maybe it is, re: Nicola. However, I don't see how the idea
that a traitor and/or a spy could reveal the secret of Traveling to
Elaida does anything for your argument that Egwene is stupid for not
wanting to just go and blatantly show it off to her.

Travelling is only an advantage if you are the only one that has it. As soon
as the Tower has that secret, the chances of such an attack being successful
are greatly reduced. And as I said before, I believe the spread of this
knowledge is near inevitable.

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
I know that Elaida didn't place any spies in Egwene's camp... but the fact
that she didn't (unless Jordan changes his mind and they "discover" some spies
that Elaida just hasn't had occasion to think of 'on camera') is just author
induced stupidity of the highest degree.

Well, this is pretty subjective. I'll just say that it's been shown
that (a) Alviarin has been doing a very good job of undermining
everything that Elaida wants to accomplish, and (b) Elaida is not
exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer anyway.
Alviarin could have made sure, if Elaida did actually place any spies
in Eg's camp, that they were all her own people. Just as one
possibility. Or she's intercepting and/or altering all their reports.
And so on.

Fair enough.

Post by Leigh Butler
Or there are no spies, and Elaida's stupid. Whatever. She *is* stupid -
or at least willful, narrow-minded, and blind to what she doesn't want
to see, which amounts to the same thing in my book. That's how she's
been written from the start. I'm not claiming that RJ's the world's
most consistent author, but I really don't see how staying true to a
*character's* stupidity translates into the *author's* stupidity.

I didn't say the author was stupid. I said he was forcing the character to
remain stupid, despite a situation where she really should be noticing
something.

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by Davian
She should have attacked a completely unprepared Tower Guard with an assault

launched from Murrandy.

I think the reason they travelled closer is that the closer you are to
a place, the better youcan control where you open. By being that close
to the Tower, they can Travel directly into the Tower itself, whereas
from Murandy, they'd have to open gateways in Tar Valon.

[Leigh Butler]

Post by Davian

Post by Leigh Butler
<The ending of COT>

Post by Davian
To end the war with the least amount of bloodshed as possible, a

coordinated

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
attack on the Tower using troops and circles of Aes Sedai pouring out of
Gateways is the way to go. Kill only as many soldiers as you have to, and
shield every AS you see before they can link.

You aren't thinking that through. Even assuming that the Rebel AS don't
decide that even providing Gateways for soldiers to pour through and
kill people constitutes using the OP as a weapon, the Tower AS will
certainly be under no constraints to defend themselves once the
soldiers get there.
Doing it that way would be mass slaughter. Including Rebel AS in the
sortie (so that *they* are also forced to defend themselves once placed
in danger) would probably end up decimating Tar Valon.

I'm sorry Leigh, I just don't agree with you. Would there be bloodshed?
Absolutely. Loss of life, even among the attackers? Definitely. But I see
all of that as inevitable anyways.

And you can stop right there, because you're judging Egwene's actions
from a perspective which the character simply doesn't accept, and
neither do any of the other major players in this standoff.

If you're looking at this from a standpoint that bloodshed is the
*only* possible outcome of it, as you are, then obviously you plan for
assault and/or defense with an eye to, not prevent, but minimize the
amount of people killed or wounded. Duh. From that perspective, yes,
Egwene's actions are stupid.

But that's not Egwene's stance on the matter. She believes that if she
attacks the Tower, that if Aes Sedai kills Aes Sedai, then the rift
between the factions will never be healed, and the Tower will be
crippled at a time when it is absolutely vital that all the forces of
Light be united against the DO.

She doesn't want to do the DO's work for him, especially not by killing
what she considers her own people. And, frankly, in Last Battle terms
one Aes Sedai is worth a hundred good soldiers, and any loss of a
channeler is to be avoided at all costs.

So. Looking at it from *Egwene's* perspective, and not yours, that
means her top priority has to be, not minimizing bloodshed, but
avoiding it altogether if remotely possible.

That means a direct assault is out. End of story.

That also means her choices are much more limited, and much less
certain. Killing people is easy. Keeping them alive is much, much
harder.

You pointed out that sieges ultimately cause more death and suffering
than straight battle. And that's true - *if* the siege lasts. And again
I say, this is not a conventional war Egwene is waging, it's a
political chess game. The cuendillar trick was her attempt to check the
king - to make either Elaida, or enough of the Tower Hall to overrule
Elaida, realize that *if* push came to shove, the rebels would win and
it's better to step down now before it comes to that.

Egwene's gambling that the cuendillar chains will be shocking enough to
the TAS that they will be goaded into capitulating before the siege has
gone on long enough to actually cause death and suffering.

Is it riskier than a simple direct assault? Certainly. But from
Egwene's point of view, achieving her goal, which is, again, a
*bloodless* coup, is important enough that the risk cannot be avoided.
For those who insist that her scheme was so harebrained, I note that no
one (to my knowledge) has come up with a better one. One that fulfills
her criteria of no bloodshed, mind.

Of course, most of Egwene's strategy is moot now, given that she's been
captured by the Tower *and* everyone involved is about to be attacked
by the Seanchan. But she hardly could have been expected to anticipate
the Seanchan when she was first devising this whole siege strategy, and
as for getting captured, while I agree that putting herself in harm's
way was unwise, I also think that sometimes, if you want shit done
right, you have to do stupid things.

[steveo]

<snip argument over siege vs. surprise attack argument>

Damn, Leigh, you really make it sound all reasonable and well thought out.

*sigh* I guess Egwene isn't a giant, well you know... after all.

Hey, maybe Elyane can find a clue somewhere, too!

steveo

[Dave Rothgery]

Post by Leigh Butler
I must be bored...
<The ending of COT>

Post by Davian
Others have covered this... Why it will work, why it won't. I just want to
say that the entire plan makes little sense for the reasons given in the book.
To end the war with the least amount of bloodshed as possible, a coordinated
attack on the Tower using troops and circles of Aes Sedai pouring out of
Gateways is the way to go. Kill only as many soldiers as you have to, and
shield every AS you see before they can link.

You aren't thinking that through. Even assuming that the Rebel AS don't
decide that even providing Gateways for soldiers to pour through and
kill people constitutes using the OP as a weapon, the Tower AS will
certainly be under no constraints to defend themselves once the
soldiers get there.
Doing it that way would be mass slaughter. Including Rebel AS in the
sortie (so that *they* are also forced to defend themselves once placed
in danger) would probably end up decimating Tar Valon.

The rebels don't really need to play games like that. They've got a
thousand novices and a score of Accepted who aren't bound by any oaths.
The preponderance of force is so strongly in the rebels' side that if
anyone in Tar Valon knew the real situation, they'd surrender
forthrightly and without embarassment.

[Daniel Holm]

Post by Dave Rothgery

Post by Leigh Butler
I must be bored...
<The ending of COT>

Post by Davian
Others have covered this... Why it will work, why it won't. I just want to
say that the entire plan makes little sense for the reasons given in the book.
To end the war with the least amount of bloodshed as possible, a coordinated
attack on the Tower using troops and circles of Aes Sedai pouring out of
Gateways is the way to go. Kill only as many soldiers as you have to, and
shield every AS you see before they can link.

You aren't thinking that through. Even assuming that the Rebel AS don't
decide that even providing Gateways for soldiers to pour through and
kill people constitutes using the OP as a weapon, the Tower AS will
certainly be under no constraints to defend themselves once the
soldiers get there.
Doing it that way would be mass slaughter. Including Rebel AS in the
sortie (so that *they* are also forced to defend themselves once placed
in danger) would probably end up decimating Tar Valon.

The rebels don't really need to play games like that. They've got a
thousand novices and a score of Accepted who aren't bound by any oaths.
The preponderance of force is so strongly in the rebels' side that if
anyone in Tar Valon knew the real situation, they'd surrender
forthrightly and without embarassment.

You are forgetting that it is Aes Sedai that we are dealing with.
Anyone not Aes Sedai doesn't count in their books. Sure, some would
wisen up and surrender, but Aes Sedai such as Elaida...? No, not even
against a clearly superior force.

--Daniel Holm

[zed246]

Post by Dave Rothgery
The rebels don't really need to play games like that. They've got a
thousand novices and a score of Accepted who aren't bound by any oaths.
The preponderance of force is so strongly in the rebels' side that if
anyone in Tar Valon knew the real situation, they'd surrender
forthrightly and without embarassment.
--
Dave Rothgery
http://drmisc.blogspot.com

You forget that Eg wants to keep the Aes Sedai using the oath-rod (and
then lift the oath and somehow regain extra 400 years to the Aes Sedai
life span - nowe that's stupid!). She also says that all of the Aes
Sedai who were declared such without being tested and taking the oaths
must live as if they were bound by the oaths.
So she hardly can say that while ordering the Accpeted and Novices to
go against the oaths. All of that's aside from the good points brought
up here about the suggestion that making gateways is using the
one-power as a weapon. Though I'm still not convince. . .

And about cuelindar weapons - it is possible to create cuelindar swords
and such, not to mention whole buildings and barricades the enemy could
never destroy. You could also use shields to carry while in battle.
See, it is logical and possible, but it seems to be difficult (at least
for women, who are weaker in Earth) and sometimes slow - so it wasn't
worth it.

[Dave Rothgery]

Post by zed246

Post by Dave Rothgery
The rebels don't really need to play games like that. They've got a
thousand novices and a score of Accepted who aren't bound by any oaths.
The preponderance of force is so strongly in the rebels' side that if
anyone in Tar Valon knew the real situation, they'd surrender
forthrightly and without embarassment.

So she hardly can say that while ordering the Accpeted and Novices to
go against the oaths. All of that's aside from the good points brought
up here about the suggestion that making gateways is using the
one-power as a weapon. Though I'm still not convince. . .

Sure she can. Declaring something should never be done just after doing
it has a long and honorable tradition.

It's like the armies closing in on Caemlyn, which exist only as long as
Elayne thinks the long-term political risk of blasting them with the One
Power is more important than the short-term effect of not blasting them.
She has a hole card that only ethics are keeping her from playing.

If I were either of their enemies, I wouldn't want to rely on them not
playing it.

[Haldrik]

Not sure if its been posted before but any thoughts on what will
happen after the Tower is reuinited? I mean right now one whole
harbor is closed off with a massive cuendillar chain and the other
is half closed. Granted they could move supplies across the
bridges, but i doubt this would be worth the effort unless absolutely
necessary.

Haldrik

[steveo]

Post by Haldrik
Not sure if its been posted before but any thoughts on what will
happen after the Tower is reuinited? I mean right now one whole
harbor is closed off with a massive cuendillar chain and the other
is half closed. Granted they could move supplies across the
bridges, but i doubt this would be worth the effort unless absolutely
necessary.

Fortuitously for them, after the AS have reunited, about 1/3 of them will be
able to instantaneously have access to any resource, any place they have
been, and at a time of their choosing. The other 2/3 will learn (to Travel,
that is) soon enough afterwards.

They could always use gateways to slice the cuendillar into segments (I
believe gateway slicing beats cuendillar strength) for easier disposal and
hauling.

My questions about the impending reunification are these:

1. What's the impact going to be with the new leadership (presumably) and
the BA hunter group?
2. How's that going to play out with the Black sisters that are bound to
them?
3. How are all the cross-bonding varieties of AM and AS going to be
resolved?
4. What part will the AS sworn to the DR play in the reunified Tower (if
any)?
5. Will all the AS stay 'local' to the Tower, or will many go their own way
(e.g. Cadsuane)?
6. Given that a large part of the AS power has been the Tower's political
influence, and given that the TOWER has had almost no influence in any of
the many regime changes that have occurred in the past year (almost all
non-Borderlands nations), will the Tower really be as influential as it had
been? Will people really care when there are so many other power brokers?

steveo

[Velk]

zed246 wrote:
<snip>

Post by zed246
And about cuelindar weapons - it is possible to create cuelindar swords
and such, not to mention whole buildings and barricades the enemy could
never destroy. You could also use shields to carry while in battle.
See, it is logical and possible, but it seems to be difficult (at least
for women, who are weaker in Earth) and sometimes slow - so it wasn't
worth it.

Or an even easier suggestion. The age of legends was a high tech
society where the principal armament was energy weapons. We haven't had
a demonstration of the conductivity of cuellendiar, but it's not
unreasonable to suggest that making armor out of it would have been
entirely pointless.

The lack of huge amounts of it is probably due to it being a
handcrafted by master artisan item in an industrialised economy,
crossed with the problem that the Aes Sedai appear to have been
effectively the goverment.

Imagine currently if, say, 2% of the US senate were able to spend a few
hours of effort to turn a quantity of steel into an unbreakable
ceramic. How likely is it that the world is going to get flooded with
these items ?

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Davian
But she instead decides on a siege, to prevent as much suffering as possible.
Unless I'm grossly misinformed though, a siege will generally result in both a
greater amount of suffering and a more generalized form. The entire city
ends up starving for week after week, instead of just dead soldiers, you have
suffering soldiers and civilians. Then at the end, unless you starve them
for an extremely long time... you still have to launch a conventional assault
upon the weakened forces, killing just as many soldiers. Perhaps more, since
you wouldn't have the element of surprise that a Travelling assault would
have.

Sieges kill many, many, many times more people than direct assaults --
especially if 'direct assault' does not by its nature involve battering
yourself to death on a well-defended wall and only getting in by walking
up the hill of corpses (see Helms Deep, The Battle Of).

Also, just as many people tend to die in the besieging army as inside the
city.

Jasper

[loial]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Just Finished Crossroads of Twilight.

<snip>

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
I could hardly believe that Egwene on her own could be this stupid but
certainly not with Gareth Bryne helping her who is by everyone's
accounts a brilliant general.
<snip cuendillar chains.>
I realize that RJ just wanted to get her captured so something dramatic
could happen but couldn't he come up with something that didn't make us
all groan, or laugh at the retard playing lead the group of dancing
dunces.

Aside from not many plots resolving, the biggest thing that struck me
from COT was how incrediby STUPID Egwene was. Getting herself, of all
people, captured, by Elaida's forces is just about the stupidest thing
she could possibly do. Not just for being a prisoner in and of itself.
Given this is a fantasy series, it can and probably will turn out ok,
with her undermining them from within. However, even so, she spent so
much effort building up her power and influence, so that she wouldn't
be just a puppet of the Hall. And what does she do? She fritters it
all away. Unless she gets rescued real darn fast, and maybe even then,
she's not going to be able to keep it a secret that she was captured.
The reconstiuted Hall is going to know what an idiot she was, and all
her efforts to become a powerful Amyrlin have been thrown down the
toilet. The Hall will also probably even make an even tougher law so
that the Amyrlin can NEVER leave without their permission. Shein
Chunla come to mind, anybody?

As a separate thought... did anybody else notice how the SAS couldn't
sink ships since that would supposedly violate the third oath, but the
TAS did exactly that to her? Perhaps it was the Black which captured
her.

[Elfseeker]

Also, folks...there is no telling the one among the Tower Aes Sedai that DO
know, would not be allowed to tell them of it(Travelling) should there be a
need for them to know.

I think we can consider it a sure thing that blockading the Tower would be
pointless, and quickly made void. Indeed rushing in and taking over before
the TAS started doing it to the SAS would be the only real solution.

For that matter, what tells them the TAS have -not- discovered Travelling
long since, seeing how they will be doing little other than studying such
things in those halls of theirs(well, and as of late plotting to do this or
that under Elaida's nose, while that disreputable puppet spends her time
enjoying her own 'greatness'.

Manipulated or not, that woman makes me sick. Building a mansion -taller
than the Tower???- Best read that history you're so proud of having acces to
a few times more, young lady; raising yourself on high is NOT your prime
directive.


And of course, for the record, Eqwene is still a few plates shy of a full
set.

[David Chapman]

Post by loial
Aside from not many plots resolving, the biggest thing that struck me
from COT was how incrediby STUPID Egwene was. Getting herself, of all
people, captured, by Elaida's forces is just about the stupidest thing
she could possibly do.

There are two chains which need to be changed to cuendillar.
They have to be changed at the same time.
That means one person has to be sent to change each chain.
*That* means they need to send two people.
Only two people can make cuendillar with any degree of certainty.
One of them is Egwene.

Is that simple enough for you?

[Jasper Janssen]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:37:25 +0100, "David Chapman"

Post by David Chapman

Post by loial
Aside from not many plots resolving, the biggest thing that struck me
from COT was how incrediby STUPID Egwene was. Getting herself, of all
people, captured, by Elaida's forces is just about the stupidest thing
she could possibly do.

There are two chains which need to be changed to cuendillar.
They have to be changed at the same time.
That means one person has to be sent to change each chain.
*That* means they need to send two people.
Only two people can make cuendillar with any degree of certainty.
One of them is Egwene.
Is that simple enough for you?

Not really. Both 'need's and 'have to's are pretty debatable. The point
is, that risking herself would be a bad and stupid idea even if it was
done to directly travel to Elaida's bedroom and still her, thus proving
herself to be the rightful Amyrlin and uniting the tower in one fell
swoop.


Jasper

[loial]

Post by David Chapman

Post by loial
Aside from not many plots resolving, the biggest thing that struck me
from COT was how incrediby STUPID Egwene was. Getting herself, of all
people, captured, by Elaida's forces is just about the stupidest thing
she could possibly do.

There are two chains which need to be changed to cuendillar.
They have to be changed at the same time.
That means one person has to be sent to change each chain.
*That* means they need to send two people.
Only two people can make cuendillar with any degree of certainty.
One of them is Egwene.
Is that simple enough for you?

Noooo kidding. The point is, she won the battle but lost the war,
politically speaking. Leigh said "This isn't a war, this is a
political power game." It makes a lot of sense. The AS are
politician, plotters, schemers, more than warriors, for the most part.
And Eg has a stated goal of reuniting the Tower with minimal or no
bloodshed. She succeeded in blocking the harbors. However, since she
flushed her accumulated power and influence with the Hall right down
the toilet in the process, it wasn't such a bright idea after all. She
might as well have just surrendered to Elaida and reunited the Hall the
sooner, and be done with it already.

(I know, she wouldn't do that, as she doesn't want to be stilled and
all, and it'll work out because the author will make it work out in the
end. It shouldn't, but it will.)

[David Chapman]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
Okay I will assume for a moment that it turned the chain not into a
flexible chain but one solid piece (no reason whatsoever to believe
this is the case since all the links are individual pieces of iron).
All the tower then needs to do is shatter the stone it is anchored to
and it will sink to the bottom of the bay, so still Egwene accomplished
nothing.

Exactly how did you think this chain was raised and lowered? Straight up
and down?

Hint: The harbour chains are longer than the harbour is wide.

[tghfbt]

Post by Scott Dallmeyer
What you need it is a chain crossing the river outside the range of the
Towers influence which is what I thought they were going to do until
they turned out to be retards. You have 30,000+ soldiers you must have
a couple dozen blacksmiths , make a regular chain (or just travel to a
city/town and buy the damn chain) turn it invincible and put it across
the damn river. Hell make a net if you want, tie the ends to rock or
trees or whatever. Just stop being retarded.

Hey, that was already done in second book of Ice and Fire.