Vinchova Question

[Bill E. Brooks]

In CoT, when Rand confronts Logain about the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai,
Logain replies "Taim gave the order." But in TPoD, an Asha'man named
Vinchova said, "Light, Logain! Did you take a _second_ one? The M'Hael
won't like that! I don't think he likes us taking any!"

It seems to me that Logain lied to Rand about this, or at least, he is
dramatically understating his own role in this. I can't find anything
about this in the FAQ. What do people believe about this?

-Bill E. Brooks

[Ash]

Post by Bill E. Brooks
In CoT, when Rand confronts Logain about the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai,
Logain replies "Taim gave the order." But in TPoD, an Asha'man named
Vinchova said, "Light, Logain! Did you take a _second_ one? The M'Hael
won't like that! I don't think he likes us taking any!"
It seems to me that Logain lied to Rand about this, or at least, he is
dramatically understating his own role in this. I can't find anything
about this in the FAQ. What do people believe about this?

Also, in the CoT prologue, Gabrelle's point of view, she thinks "no one
was bonded to a man of Taim's faction", so the bonded AS are all taken
by either those loyal to Logain or those unaware of the struggle. If
Taim did give an order, his own men were not involved in carrying it out.

[David Chapman]

Post by Ash

Post by Bill E. Brooks
In CoT, when Rand confronts Logain about the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai,
Logain replies "Taim gave the order." But in TPoD, an Asha'man named
Vinchova said, "Light, Logain! Did you take a _second_ one? The M'Hael
won't like that! I don't think he likes us taking any!"
It seems to me that Logain lied to Rand about this, or at least, he is
dramatically understating his own role in this. I can't find anything
about this in the FAQ. What do people believe about this?

Also, in the CoT prologue, Gabrelle's point of view, she thinks "no one
was bonded to a man of Taim's faction", so the bonded AS are all taken
by either those loyal to Logain or those unaware of the struggle. If
Taim did give an order, his own men were not involved in carrying it out.

Not-So-Looney Theory: Taim thought bonding sisters might lead to the Aes
Sedai controlling or gentling Asha'man. With that in mind, he gave a public
order to go ahead with the bonding while privately ordering his picked men
not to take part.

[dwn]

Post by David Chapman
Not-So-Looney Theory: Taim thought bonding sisters might lead to the Aes
Sedai controlling or gentling Asha'man. With that in mind, he gave a public
order to go ahead with the bonding while privately ordering his picked men
not to take part.

I think it probably goes further than that. With or without gentling,
Taim could reasonably expect bonding Aes Sedai to cause conflict
between Rand, Aes Sedai and Asha'man in Logain's faction (since they're
the only men doing the bonding).

KOD Spoilers Below
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The same could be said for Taim allowing Aes Sedai to bond Asha'man,
especially if allowing Tarna's group to bond men in excess of the 47
allowed to Egwene's group. He's basically trying to make sure the two
groups are never equal. Taim would want to keep his own followers out
of it, since being bonded would only weaken them (in the sense that
they are subordinate to Aes Sedai).

The "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" line at the end of KOD supports this,
since the phrase has, in general, meant creating conflict between
opponents of the Shadow, which the bonding would tend to do (from
Taim's point of view, anyways).

Post by David Chapman
From Rand's (and others) POVs, it would seem that it's actually having

the opposite effect. Relations are steadily improving between Aes
Sedai and Asha'man on either side of a bond (perhaps excluding
Toveine).

-- dwn

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by dwn

Post by David Chapman
Not-So-Looney Theory: Taim thought bonding sisters might lead to the Aes
Sedai controlling or gentling Asha'man. With that in mind, he gave a public
order to go ahead with the bonding while privately ordering his picked men
not to take part.

I think it probably goes further than that. With or without gentling,
Taim could reasonably expect bonding Aes Sedai to cause conflict
between Rand, Aes Sedai and Asha'man in Logain's faction (since they're
the only men doing the bonding).
KOD Spoilers Below
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
The same could be said for Taim allowing Aes Sedai to bond Asha'man,
especially if allowing Tarna's group to bond men in excess of the 47
allowed to Egwene's group. He's basically trying to make sure the two
groups are never equal. Taim would want to keep his own followers out
of it, since being bonded would only weaken them (in the sense that
they are subordinate to Aes Sedai).
The "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" line at the end of KOD supports this,
since the phrase has, in general, meant creating conflict between
opponents of the Shadow, which the bonding would tend to do (from
Taim's point of view, anyways).

Post by David Chapman
From Rand's (and others) POVs, it would seem that it's actually having

the opposite effect. Relations are steadily improving between Aes
Sedai and Asha'man on either side of a bond (perhaps excluding
Toveine).

What about Taim and the Asha'man's laughter at the Reds? Doesn't it
seem that they are scoffing at the idea that any of them would _want_
to be bonded? Or do you think the laughter means, to quote Egwene,
the Reds have "handed me a give from the sky"?

(And yes, I realize that many people believe that the laughter means
that Taim wants to blast the Reds out of existence, but I am being a
skeptic about that.)

-Bill E. Brooks

[dwn]

Post by Bill E. Brooks
What about Taim and the Asha'man's laughter at the Reds? Doesn't it
seem that they are scoffing at the idea that any of them would _want_
to be bonded? Or do you think the laughter means, to quote Egwene,
the Reds have "handed me a give from the sky"?
(And yes, I realize that many people believe that the laughter means
that Taim wants to blast the Reds out of existence, but I am being a
skeptic about that.)
-Bill E. Brooks

I read it as laughing at the Aes Sedai walking into his plans so easily
(i.e. a gift from the sky). There could be some contempt there for any
Asha'man who would let himself be bonded, but Taim must know that some
already have (Flinn, Narishma, etc.), so it's not a stretch that others
would as well even if Egwene's group hasn't already taken their 47. If
it thins out the men who aren't loyal to him, great. The whole scene
has a sense of smugness about, and "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" seems
like kind of an inside joke to Taim's faction.

I agree that it doesn't seem like Taim wants to blast the Reds out of
existence. There isn't any hint of fear or anger in him.

-- dwn

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Ash

Post by Bill E. Brooks
In CoT, when Rand confronts Logain about the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai,
Logain replies "Taim gave the order." But in TPoD, an Asha'man named
Vinchova said, "Light, Logain! Did you take a _second_ one? The M'Hael
won't like that! I don't think he likes us taking any!"
It seems to me that Logain lied to Rand about this, or at least, he is
dramatically understating his own role in this. I can't find anything
about this in the FAQ. What do people believe about this?

Also, in the CoT prologue, Gabrelle's point of view, she thinks "no one
was bonded to a man of Taim's faction", so the bonded AS are all taken
by either those loyal to Logain or those unaware of the struggle. If
Taim did give an order, his own men were not involved in carrying it out.

Not-So-Looney Theory: Taim thought bonding sisters might lead to the Aes
Sedai controlling or gentling Asha'man. With that in mind, he gave a public
order to go ahead with the bonding while privately ordering his picked men
not to take part.

This meshes with Gabrelle's comment (which I forgot to mention; thank
you Ash for the addendum), but it doesn't seem to mesh so well with
Vinchova's. Can you provide an explanation that deals with this
problem? Are you saying Vinchova is in league with Taim, a dupe, or
what?

-Bill E. Brooks

[dwn]

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by Bill E. Brooks
In CoT, when Rand confronts Logain about the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai,
Logain replies "Taim gave the order." But in TPoD, an Asha'man named
Vinchova said, "Light, Logain! Did you take a _second_ one? The M'Hael
won't like that! I don't think he likes us taking any!"

-Bill E. Brooks

Here are two more ways to read it (though I think it might just have
been a misstep).

1) Vinchova might only have been referring to himself and Logain (or
anyone else in Logain's faction). Taim gave the order to bond the Aes
Sedai, but he didn't want them bonded to men who were decidedly against
him. Perhaps he feels that it gives too much power to Logain's
faction. Aes Sedai might be worthy of contempt, but they -can-
channel.

2) Vinchova might be be mistaken. He probably knows that Taim gave the
order, but Taim was also upset when men had bonded their wives (Grady
mentions this in ACOS, I think). Vinchova therefore has reason to
believe that Taim still wouldn't like bonding, no matter what orders he
gave.

-- dwn

[Sarah Coit]

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by David Chapman
Not-So-Looney Theory: Taim thought bonding sisters might lead to the Aes
Sedai controlling or gentling Asha'man. With that in mind, he gave a public
order to go ahead with the bonding while privately ordering his picked men
not to take part.

This meshes with Gabrelle's comment (which I forgot to mention; thank
you Ash for the addendum), but it doesn't seem to mesh so well with
Vinchova's. Can you provide an explanation that deals with this
problem? Are you saying Vinchova is in league with Taim, a dupe, or
what?

My best guess would be that Taim made a public showing of scorn for
the bonding, but privately supported it. That said, he still wouldn't
approve of Logain bonding two sisters: it makes Logain more powerful,
and could be seen as a status symbol. Taim wouldn't like to see
either in his greatest rival in the Asha'man. The Asha'man know that
Taim won't approve of anything that makes Logain more powerful,
especially since Taim appeared to disapprove of the bonding to start
with. That might (weakly) explain Vinchova's comment.

[Joey Armao]

Post by Bill E. Brooks
In CoT, when Rand confronts Logain about the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai,
Logain replies "Taim gave the order." But in TPoD, an Asha'man named
Vinchova said, "Light, Logain! Did you take a _second_ one? The M'Hael
won't like that! I don't think he likes us taking any!"

I thought the "order" that Logain was referring to was Rand's order
that no Aes Sedai were to be harmed and that Taim's displeasure came
from the Asha'man, particularly Logain's Asha'man interpreting that
order as an impetus to start bonding Aes Sedai


Joey Armao
"Facts are meaningless... you can use facts to prove something thats
even remotely true. Facts Schmacts." ~Homer Simpson

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Ash

Post by Bill E. Brooks
In CoT, when Rand confronts Logain about the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai,
Logain replies "Taim gave the order." But in TPoD, an Asha'man named
Vinchova said, "Light, Logain! Did you take a _second_ one? The M'Hael
won't like that! I don't think he likes us taking any!"
It seems to me that Logain lied to Rand about this, or at least, he is
dramatically understating his own role in this. I can't find anything
about this in the FAQ. What do people believe about this?

Also, in the CoT prologue, Gabrelle's point of view, she thinks "no one
was bonded to a man of Taim's faction", so the bonded AS are all taken
by either those loyal to Logain or those unaware of the struggle. If
Taim did give an order, his own men were not involved in carrying it out.

The bonded AS could prove useful if Logain decides to mount a coup against
Taim.