The Horn of Valere and Randland armies at the begginning of TG

[p***@hotmail.com]

I was reading along this morning and noticed something that I hadn't
thought in the whole time that I have been reading this series.
Hunters for the horn. They have been spotted in every land at nearly
every point in the series. From accounts of the oath ceremony there
were thousands of hunters assembled in Illian to take the oath. What
if all of these hunters were in one place? Wouldn't this make an army
in an of itself? We know that the horn of Valere has some connection
to Illian. If we assume that the discovery of the horn will be
announced before TG wouldn't this cause this hunter diaspora to return
to Illian? If we assume that Matt will end up reunited with the horn,
and that the Band will remain with him, it seems to me that Matt will
be starting TG in Illian with the combined forces of the band, and
thousands of hunters for the horn. If this is the case, it would clear
up something that has been troubling me about how RJ has been arranging
the Randland Armies.

If you look at a map of Randland, it is arguably square. As of the end
of KoD we have some pretty big armies that seem to be taking positions
for what we know to be the beggining ot TG. Rand seems to be taking
every Aiel he can find up to Arad Doman, the Northwest corner of the
map, the Seanchan hold the southeast, Lan is taking the borderlanders
to the Northeast, and there seem to be thousands of Andorans and
Borderlanders converging on Camelyn, roughly center. Other armies of
note are the Whitecloaks, which were last seen headed roughly north,
maybe towards Tar Valon. The Tar Valon armies, both rebel and tower
forces located roughly halfway between Lan's forces and Camelyn, and
Perrin's army + thousands and thousands of refugees, which are roughly
halfway between Seanchan territory and Camelyn. Given RJ's penchant
for balance and symetry, it has been bothering me that a land with 4
corners has only 3 of those corners covered. There is as of KoD no
meaningful force left in the Southeast of Randland. I think that an
army of hunters for the horn with a coreforce of legend, lead by the
son of battles with a vanguard of dead heroes would nicely fit the
bill, and cover that corner of the map. Coincidently, Matt will have
to make an appearance in Illian before TG if he is to be reunited with
the Horn.

This seems like a lot to accomplish before TG you say? I don't know,
it seems pretty doable to me. What has to get done before Matt can
show up in Illian? 1. He has to journey to the tower of Ghenji and
save Moraine. CUrrently Matt and the Band are located a hop and a skip
from the Manetherendrelle which coincidently flows past both the tower
of Ghenji AND Illian. I see Matt's storyline in MoL having him take a
rivertrip up the Manetherendrelle to the tower, and then a return trip
south straight to Illian. Besides traveling, sailing has been the
fastest way anywhere in the books, not to mention the fact that Matt is
currently traveling with one of the best rivertraders/smugglers ever,
Bale Doman.

Yeah, so maybe Matt can make it upriver and down before TG, but how is
the horn going to get to Illian, and how will enough people hear about
its discovery to gather all of the hunters before TG? THe answer is
simple. Only 2 people in the world know were the horn of Valere is.
Suian and Verin. Verin recently disapeared on a little quest of her
own, saying that she could, "fulfill her oath," better elsewhere. It
is my belief that Verin is going to TarValon to recover the horn of
valere. We also know that the King of Illian Mattin Stephanos is
currently housed in Tar Valon. Who better to carry the horn to Illian,
who better to spread the word? Assuming that Verin wouldn't just make
a gateway for him to Illian, we can still assume that a fast riverboat
from TarValon to Tear and a ship from Tear to Illian would still bring
the horn to Illian in around the same time as it takes for Matt to get
back from the tower of ghenji. If you look closely at the map of
Randland you will also notice that nearly every river empties into
either Ebou Dar, Illian, or Tear. The one real exception is Tanchio.
If word started spreading from the North that the horn had been found,
it would be a simple boat trip of a few weeks for all of the hunters
for the horn to sail south, and meet up in Illian.


So, the questions I have are these. Is it clear that Matt will end up
in Illian at the start of TG? How will the horn get to Illian before
TG? Will the scattered hunters assemble there or are they a
non-entity? Does it matter if all 4 corners of Randland have armies
deployed on the side of the light? Is Verin going to TV to recover the
HoV? Did any of the above ramblings make sense?

[Jim Seay]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
I was reading along this morning and noticed something that I hadn't
thought in the whole time that I have been reading this series.
Hunters for the horn. They have been spotted in every land at nearly
every point in the series. From accounts of the oath ceremony there
were thousands of hunters assembled in Illian to take the oath. What
if all of these hunters were in one place? Wouldn't this make an army
in an of itself? We know that the horn of Valere has some connection
to Illian. If we assume that the discovery of the horn will be
announced before TG wouldn't this cause this hunter diaspora to return
to Illian? If we assume that Matt will end up reunited with the horn,
and that the Band will remain with him, it seems to me that Matt will
be starting TG in Illian with the combined forces of the band, and
thousands of hunters for the horn. If this is the case, it would clear
up something that has been troubling me about how RJ has been arranging
the Randland Armies.
If you look at a map of Randland, it is arguably square. As of the end
of KoD we have some pretty big armies that seem to be taking positions
for what we know to be the beggining ot TG. Rand seems to be taking
every Aiel he can find up to Arad Doman, the Northwest corner of the
map, the Seanchan hold the southeast, Lan is taking the borderlanders
to the Northeast, and there seem to be thousands of Andorans and
Borderlanders converging on Camelyn, roughly center. Other armies of
note are the Whitecloaks, which were last seen headed roughly north,
maybe towards Tar Valon. The Tar Valon armies, both rebel and tower
forces located roughly halfway between Lan's forces and Camelyn, and
Perrin's army + thousands and thousands of refugees, which are roughly
halfway between Seanchan territory and Camelyn. Given RJ's penchant
for balance and symetry, it has been bothering me that a land with 4
corners has only 3 of those corners covered. There is as of KoD no
meaningful force left in the Southeast of Randland. I think that an
army of hunters for the horn with a coreforce of legend, lead by the
son of battles with a vanguard of dead heroes would nicely fit the
bill, and cover that corner of the map. Coincidently, Matt will have
to make an appearance in Illian before TG if he is to be reunited with
the Horn.
This seems like a lot to accomplish before TG you say? I don't know,
it seems pretty doable to me. What has to get done before Matt can
show up in Illian? 1. He has to journey to the tower of Ghenji and
save Moraine. CUrrently Matt and the Band are located a hop and a skip
from the Manetherendrelle which coincidently flows past both the tower
of Ghenji AND Illian. I see Matt's storyline in MoL having him take a
rivertrip up the Manetherendrelle to the tower, and then a return trip
south straight to Illian. Besides traveling, sailing has been the
fastest way anywhere in the books, not to mention the fact that Matt is
currently traveling with one of the best rivertraders/smugglers ever,
Bale Doman.
Yeah, so maybe Matt can make it upriver and down before TG, but how is
the horn going to get to Illian, and how will enough people hear about
its discovery to gather all of the hunters before TG? THe answer is
simple. Only 2 people in the world know were the horn of Valere is.
Suian and Verin. Verin recently disapeared on a little quest of her
own, saying that she could, "fulfill her oath," better elsewhere. It
is my belief that Verin is going to TarValon to recover the horn of
valere. We also know that the King of Illian Mattin Stephanos is
currently housed in Tar Valon. Who better to carry the horn to Illian,
who better to spread the word? Assuming that Verin wouldn't just make
a gateway for him to Illian, we can still assume that a fast riverboat
from TarValon to Tear and a ship from Tear to Illian would still bring
the horn to Illian in around the same time as it takes for Matt to get
back from the tower of ghenji. If you look closely at the map of
Randland you will also notice that nearly every river empties into
either Ebou Dar, Illian, or Tear. The one real exception is Tanchio.
If word started spreading from the North that the horn had been found,
it would be a simple boat trip of a few weeks for all of the hunters
for the horn to sail south, and meet up in Illian.
So, the questions I have are these. Is it clear that Matt will end up
in Illian at the start of TG? How will the horn get to Illian before
TG? Will the scattered hunters assemble there or are they a
non-entity? Does it matter if all 4 corners of Randland have armies
deployed on the side of the light? Is Verin going to TV to recover the
HoV? Did any of the above ramblings make sense?

Remember Egwene's dreams about the Seanchan attacking Tar Valon? Since
there is only one book (hopefully) left in the series, I am guessing
they will raid Tar Valon (either travelling, or using their various
species of Rakens), in order to obtain the horn for their new Prince of
Ravens (Mat). In doing so, the raid may be the one thing which convinces
the Aes Sedai to settle their differences one and for all.

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by Jim Seay
Remember Egwene's dreams about the Seanchan attacking Tar Valon? Since
there is only one book (hopefully) left in the series, I am guessing
they will raid Tar Valon (either travelling, or using their various
species of Rakens), in order to obtain the horn for their new Prince of
Ravens (Mat). In doing so, the raid may be the one thing which convinces
the Aes Sedai to settle their differences one and for all.

I suppose that this is one possible scenario, but the seanchan do not
know that the horn is hidden in Tar Valon. They also do not know that
Matt is the hornsounder. I suppose that Matt's dumb luck could arrange
for a seanchan raid to bring him the horn, but I think that too much
setup has been done for this to be likely. In your scenario, what
would be the purpose of RJ bringing Mattin Stephanos all the way to the
location of the horn of valere?

[Terra Ryzen]

I have to question whether Mat is still bound to the horn. He has died
*TWICE* since he sounded the horn: once in Finn'land and once Caemlyn. I
believe it is quite possible that the horn can be sounded by anyone again.

I think the most probable suspects are: Davrim Bashere or Logain. Why?
Because the horn must be sounded in conjunction with Rand and the Dragon
banner ("We come for the horn, but we follow the banner," Hawkwing said.)
so sounding it anywhere else would be fruitless. Granted, all three (Rand,
Mat and Perrin) will be in attendance at TG, but a battle of that magnitude
will stretch for *leagues*, perhaps the entire length of the Blight, so it
is unlikely that they will all be at the same place at the same time.
Also, Mat and Perrin have taken to fighting under their own respective
banners and I do not see that coming to an end any time soon.

[c***@eircom.net]

Post by Terra Ryzen
I have to question whether Mat is still bound to the horn. He has died
*TWICE* since he sounded the horn: once in Finn'land and once Caemlyn. I
believe it is quite possible that the horn can be sounded by anyone again.

Actually, Mat didn't die in Finnland. He almost did. However, a while
after being hung, Rand cut him down and brought him back to
consciousness. Rand didn't use the Power or CPR. Therefore, as of being
cut down from the tree, Mat wasn't quite dead.

As for Caemlyn - well, yes he did die there. However, Rand balefired
Rahvin shortly afterwards, meaning that his lightning didn't hit Mat at
all, since it was never woven. So, though everyone saw Mat die, he
didn't *really* die.

(Bloody balefire paradox...)

Post by Terra Ryzen
I think the most probable suspects are: Davrim Bashere or Logain. Why?
Because the horn must be sounded in conjunction with Rand and the Dragon
banner ("We come for the horn, but we follow the banner," Hawkwing said.)
so sounding it anywhere else would be fruitless. Granted, all three (Rand,
Mat and Perrin) will be in attendance at TG, but a battle of that magnitude
will stretch for *leagues*, perhaps the entire length of the Blight, so it
is unlikely that they will all be at the same place at the same time.
Also, Mat and Perrin have taken to fighting under their own respective
banners and I do not see that coming to an end any time soon.

Are you sure the Last Battle will stretch such a huge distance? I
rather think it will be an assault on Shayol Ghul, with Rand leading
the channelers, Perrin leading the wolves, and Mat leading the
ordinary soldiers. I also imagine that either Loial or a Gardener will
lead the Ogier.

This means that the three ta'veren will be relatively close, perhaps
only a few miles apart. No difficulty with Mat sounding the Horn then.

Or as a final scenario, the Horn might be stolen by the Black Ajah and
taken to Shayol Ghul. However, Mat will take a small strike force with
him and infiltrate behind enemy lines. He would then liberate the Horn
and blow it, thus providing a deadly force to the enemy's rear. Note
that this is just a possible idea with no foundation whatsoever.

[Terra Ryzen]

Post by c***@eircom.net
Actually, Mat didn't die in Finnland. He almost did. However, a while
after being hung, Rand cut him down and brought him back to
consciousness. Rand didn't use the Power or CPR. Therefore, as of
being cut down from the tree, Mat wasn't quite dead.

Here's what the book says:

"Letting sword and Power go, he ripped the rope away from Mat’s neck and
pressed an ear to his friend’s chest. Nothing. Desperately, he tore open
Mat’s coat and shirt, breaking the leather cord that held a silver
medallion on Mat’s chest. He tossed the medallion aside, listened again.
Nothing. No heartbeat. Dead. No! He’d be all right if I hadn’t let him
follow me here. 1 can’t let him be dead!

As hard as he could he pounded his fist against Mat’s chest, listened.
Nothing. Again he hammered, listened. Yes. There. A faint heartbeat. It
was."

Seems pretty clear to me that Mat was dead.

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by Terra Ryzen
Seems pretty clear to me that Mat was dead.

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

[p***@hotmail.com]

On the subject of how big TG will be I am of the opinion that it will
at least be a two front war. It seems too much to be coincidence to
think that the only waygates that remain unguarded as of KoD are the
ones located within the shadow coast, the exact opposite end of the map
from Tarwin's gap, the most likely place for a blight based assault.
This would seem to fit with the snake people's prophecy to Rand that
the south and the west would have to be as one, and that the north and
the east would have to be as one, in order for him to win TG. the
northeast to hold off the trolloc hordes from tarwin's gap, and the
southwest to hold off the other horde coming from the waygates on the
shadow coast. I mean even the name is indicative, what better place
for a sneak attack to come from than the SHADOW coast?

[c***@eircom.net]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
On the subject of how big TG will be I am of the opinion that it will
at least be a two front war. It seems too much to be coincidence to
think that the only waygates that remain unguarded as of KoD are the
ones located within the shadow coast, the exact opposite end of the map
from Tarwin's gap, the most likely place for a blight based assault.
This would seem to fit with the snake people's prophecy to Rand that
the south and the west would have to be as one, and that the north and
the east would have to be as one, in order for him to win TG. the
northeast to hold off the trolloc hordes from tarwin's gap, and the
southwest to hold off the other horde coming from the waygates on the
shadow coast. I mean even the name is indicative, what better place
for a sneak attack to come from than the SHADOW coast?

I believe the prophecy says 'He [Rand] shall bind the north to the
east, and the west shall be bound to the south.' This is often taken to
mean that Rand will control the northern and western lands, while the
Seanchan will take over the southern and eastern.

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by c***@eircom.net
I believe the prophecy says 'He [Rand] shall bind the north to the
east, and the west shall be bound to the south.' This is often taken to
mean that Rand will control the northern and western lands, while the
Seanchan will take over the southern and eastern.

Also the snakepeople told him that in order to win the last battle the
south and the west must be as one, and the north and the east must be
as one. What's your point? I think that Lan will face the brunt of
the attack from the northeast, falling back to tar valon, picking up
bryne's army, the tower guard, the whitecloaks, and the aes sedai. I
think that the seanchan will get hit hard from the shadow coast,
falling back into perrin's forces, and then even possibly falling back
to camelyn. Lan might have to fall back as far as camelyn as well. Or
the Andorians could race southwest to support perrin/seanchan forces,
and the borderlanders could run north east to support the war there at
tar valon. Who knows? I sure don't, but I'm looking forward to it.
I'm just calling for speculation I what you all think will happen,
knowing what we do about the troop placements on the eve of TG?

[Pat O'Connell]

Post by c***@eircom.net
Actually, Mat didn't die in Finnland. He almost did. However, a while
after being hung, Rand cut him down and brought him back to
consciousness. Rand didn't use the Power or CPR. Therefore, as of
being cut down from the tree, Mat wasn't quite dead.

"Letting sword and Power go, he ripped the rope away from Mat’s neck and
pressed an ear to his friend’s chest. Nothing. Desperately, he tore open
Mat’s coat and shirt, breaking the leather cord that held a silver
medallion on Mat’s chest. He tossed the medallion aside, listened again.
Nothing. No heartbeat. Dead. No! He’d be all right if I hadn’t let him
follow me here. 1 can’t let him be dead!
As hard as he could he pounded his fist against Mat’s chest, listened.
Nothing. Again he hammered, listened. Yes. There. A faint heartbeat. It
was."
Seems pretty clear to me that Mat was dead.

As has been discussed before (when the book was newly released and
afterward), Mat's heart had stopped. Rand did CPR on him, and it worked.
Mat was probably not dead--yet.

[Kasten]

Post by c***@eircom.net
Or as a final scenario, the Horn might be stolen by the Black Ajah and
taken to Shayol Ghul. However, Mat will take a small strike force with
him and infiltrate behind enemy lines. He would then liberate the Horn
and blow it, thus providing a deadly force to the enemy's rear. Note
that this is just a possible idea with no foundation whatsoever.

It would be much more fun if:

1) Mat was dead, so no longer connected to the horn
2) the BA stole the horn, and sound it at TG
3) The heroes appear resulting in the DO forces cheering for the
reinforcement
4) Rand raising the dragon banner
5) the heroes saying: Sorry, we follow the banner and start to slaugther
the DO's forces

Karsten

[Tim Bruening]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
I was reading along this morning and noticed something that I hadn't
thought in the whole time that I have been reading this series.
Hunters for the horn. They have been spotted in every land at nearly
every point in the series. From accounts of the oath ceremony there
were thousands of hunters assembled in Illian to take the oath. What
if all of these hunters were in one place? Wouldn't this make an army
in an of itself? We know that the horn of Valere has some connection
to Illian. If we assume that the discovery of the horn will be
announced before TG wouldn't this cause this hunter diaspora to return
to Illian? If we assume that Matt will end up reunited with the horn,
and that the Band will remain with him, it seems to me that Matt will
be starting TG in Illian with the combined forces of the band, and
thousands of hunters for the horn. If this is the case, it would clear
up something that has been troubling me about how RJ has been arranging
the Randland Armies.
If you look at a map of Randland, it is arguably square. As of the end
of KoD we have some pretty big armies that seem to be taking positions
for what we know to be the beggining ot TG. Rand seems to be taking
every Aiel he can find up to Arad Doman, the Northwest corner of the
map, the Seanchan hold the southeast, Lan is taking the borderlanders
to the Northeast, and there seem to be thousands of Andorans and
Borderlanders converging on Camelyn, roughly center. Other armies of
note are the Whitecloaks, which were last seen headed roughly north,
maybe towards Tar Valon. The Tar Valon armies, both rebel and tower
forces located roughly halfway between Lan's forces and Camelyn, and
Perrin's army + thousands and thousands of refugees, which are roughly
halfway between Seanchan territory and Camelyn. Given RJ's penchant
for balance and symetry, it has been bothering me that a land with 4
corners has only 3 of those corners covered. There is as of KoD no
meaningful force left in the Southeast of Randland. I think that an
army of hunters for the horn with a coreforce of legend, lead by the
son of battles with a vanguard of dead heroes would nicely fit the
bill, and cover that corner of the map. Coincidently, Matt will have
to make an appearance in Illian before TG if he is to be reunited with
the Horn.

The Horn is at Tar Valon. Why can't Mat pick it up there?