Artur Hawkwing's Tar Valon invasion

[Daniel]

Well this is more of a nit.

In ACOS (An Oath UK edition 219-220p)Bryne tells Egwene that the crucial factor
is to blockade Northharbor and Southharbor. Hawking never succeded in doing so
and hence could never take Tar Valon .

Why is the crucial factor blocking the harbour mouths specifically? Why no
simply block the river further downstream and upstream? It's all just the one
river so it's not as if ships can miraculousy appear. With Hawkwing's
resources, surely this would not have been a problem.

Any thoughts/ideas? Is there something I'm missing?

Daniel

[Kjell Stahl]

Post by Daniel
Well this is more of a nit.
In ACOS (An Oath UK edition 219-220p)Bryne tells Egwene that the crucial factor
is to blockade Northharbor and Southharbor. Hawking never succeded in doing so
and hence could never take Tar Valon .
Why is the crucial factor blocking the harbour mouths specifically? Why no
simply block the river further downstream and upstream? It's all just the one
river so it's not as if ships can miraculousy appear. With Hawkwing's
resources, surely this would not have been a problem.

Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Kjell Stahl
Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

Blockade runners.

But anyway. How come all these scandihoovians that are suddenly
reappearing are all posting in ontopic threads?

Jasper

[Davian]

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Kjell Stahl
Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

Blockade runners.

Thats not really the question though. We know how they're getting through,
and even why (gold, although you'd think Tar Valon's treasury would run a
bit thin over 20 years). These blockade runners need to buy thier supplies
somewhere, and it has to be a significant amount and frequently to keep Tar
Valon eating for that long.. Since Hawkwing controlled everything other
than Tar Valon, he was ruler over the cities where the blockade runners were
buying thier supplies and the cities that they returned to after delivering
thier goods.

Even if he couldn't effectively blockade the harbors, a bit more effective
law enforcement in his other closeby cities might have won him the siege.

[Kjell Stahl]

Post by Davian

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Kjell Stahl
Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

Blockade runners.

Thats not really the question though. We know how they're getting through,
and even why (gold, although you'd think Tar Valon's treasury would run a
bit thin over 20 years). These blockade runners need to buy thier supplies
somewhere, and it has to be a significant amount and frequently to keep Tar
Valon eating for that long.. Since Hawkwing controlled everything other
than Tar Valon, he was ruler over the cities where the blockade runners were
buying thier supplies and the cities that they returned to after delivering
thier goods.
Even if he couldn't effectively blockade the harbors, a bit more effective
law enforcement in his other closeby cities might have won him the siege.

Exactly what I was going to say. It's not like all it took was 4-5 ship
captains thumbing their nose at Hawkwing to keep the city alive.

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Davian
Thats not really the question though. We know how they're getting through,
and even why (gold, although you'd think Tar Valon's treasury would run a
bit thin over 20 years). These blockade runners need to buy thier supplies

Not when they spent 1000 years hoarding said treasury. And they can pay
with other means, like Healing the sick.

Post by Davian
somewhere, and it has to be a significant amount and frequently to keep Tar
Valon eating for that long.. Since Hawkwing controlled everything other
than Tar Valon, he was ruler over the cities where the blockade runners were
buying thier supplies and the cities that they returned to after delivering
thier goods.
Even if he couldn't effectively blockade the harbors, a bit more effective
law enforcement in his other closeby cities might have won him the siege.

Keeping in mind the technology level of 'current day' Randland and that it
took them a 1000 years past Hawkwing to get there, how exactly do you
propose this effective law enforcement work, without crippling the economy
of the rest of the continent? How do you, especially absent any
communications faster than a man on horseback, prove that ship captain X
is buying food that will be transshipped to a deserted cove where
blockaderunners will pick it up? Pirates and blockade runners were
significant parts of shipping here until at least the age of ironclads,
and even after. Keeping in mind that Randland has essentially no
projectile weapons with more range and power than arrows, a ship's captain
can resist landbound opposition for immense amounts of time. The only
truly effective way, IMHO, would be to ban shipping for at least 50 miles
on either side of TV, which you can't do without cutting off a huge piece
of hinterland from economical transport.


Jasper

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Davian
Thats not really the question though. We know how they're getting through,
and even why (gold, although you'd think Tar Valon's treasury would run a
bit thin over 20 years). These blockade runners need to buy thier supplies

Not when they spent 1000 years hoarding said treasury. And they can pay
with other means, like Healing the sick.

Post by Davian
somewhere, and it has to be a significant amount and frequently to keep Tar
Valon eating for that long.. Since Hawkwing controlled everything other
than Tar Valon, he was ruler over the cities where the blockade runners were
buying thier supplies and the cities that they returned to after delivering
thier goods.
Even if he couldn't effectively blockade the harbors, a bit more effective
law enforcement in his other closeby cities might have won him the siege.

Keeping in mind the technology level of 'current day' Randland and that it
took them a 1000 years past Hawkwing to get there, how exactly do you
propose this effective law enforcement work, without crippling the economy
of the rest of the continent? How do you, especially absent any
communications faster than a man on horseback, prove that ship captain X
is buying food that will be transshipped to a deserted cove where
blockaderunners will pick it up? Pirates and blockade runners were
significant parts of shipping here until at least the age of ironclads,
and even after. Keeping in mind that Randland has essentially no
projectile weapons with more range and power than arrows, a ship's captain
can resist landbound opposition for immense amounts of time. The only
truly effective way, IMHO, would be to ban shipping for at least 50 miles
on either side of TV, which you can't do without cutting off a huge piece
of hinterland from economical transport.

Hawkwing's law enforcement was effective enough that a woman could carry gold
from one end of the empire to the other without being molested and without
needing guards.

[Kjell Stahl]

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Kjell Stahl
Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

Blockade runners.

[Davian covered all I wanted to say]

Post by Jasper Janssen
But anyway. How come all these scandihoovians that are suddenly
reappearing are all posting in ontopic threads?

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been here all the time.
Granted, I've not posted that much...

[Scott Clark]

Post by Kjell Stahl

Post by Daniel
Well this is more of a nit.
In ACOS (An Oath UK edition 219-220p)Bryne tells Egwene that the crucial factor
is to blockade Northharbor and Southharbor. Hawking never succeded in doing so
and hence could never take Tar Valon .
Why is the crucial factor blocking the harbour mouths specifically? Why no
simply block the river further downstream and upstream? It's all just the one
river so it's not as if ships can miraculousy appear. With Hawkwing's
resources, surely this would not have been a problem.

Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

He probably did. Ever hear of smugglers?

[Daniel]

Post by Scott Clark

Post by Kjell Stahl
Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

He probably did. Ever hear of smugglers?

Yes, but usually only in the context of smuggling goods across wide borders,
not into beseiged cities. Any vessel carrying food or material that is deemed
crucial for Tar Valon to continue ressisting Hawkwing would have to be large,
hence slow. Not rowboats sneaking into the harbour.

It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of Randland
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful convoys
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.

Daniel

[Blaise D West]

Post by Daniel

Post by Scott Clark

Post by Kjell Stahl
Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

He probably did. Ever hear of smugglers?

Yes, but usually only in the context of smuggling goods across wide borders,
not into beseiged cities. Any vessel carrying food or material that is deemed
crucial for Tar Valon to continue ressisting Hawkwing would have to be large,
hence slow. Not rowboats sneaking into the harbour.
It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of Randland
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful convoys
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.

They did. There were still large bodies of disaffected nobles backing the
AS.
They used their minor estates to continue shipping to TV.
Blaise D West

[Kjell Stahl]

Post by Conny Bäcklin

Post by Daniel
It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of

Randland

Post by Daniel
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful

convoys

Post by Daniel
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.

They did. There were still large bodies of disaffected nobles backing the
AS.
They used their minor estates to continue shipping to TV.

Shipping from where exactly? It's not like Tar Valon could survive on a
couple of small fast ships a month. We're talking about one of the
largest cities in Randland being supplied, not only with food but also
every other necessary thing (wood/coal for heating etc), supplied
_solely_ by ships for _twenty_ years. You'd need several big shiploads
_every day_, and I mean _big_ cargo vessels. Not to mention that these
ship's would have to go somewhere when they had unloaded, it's not like
they all could stay in Tar Valon's harbours.

So no, no matter how many disgruntled nobles were sympathetic to Tar
Valon, they couldn't have pulled off a thing like that. Hawking can not
have had _that_ bad a grip on his subjects.

It's more likely that Jordan didn't think it through beforehand.

[Trade Surplus]

Post by Kjell Stahl
So no, no matter how many disgruntled nobles were sympathetic to Tar
Valon, they couldn't have pulled off a thing like that. Hawking can not
have had _that_ bad a grip on his subjects.

Far be it from me to suggest that Jordan ever thought something through
fully before writing it down but one possible explanation came to mind as I
read this thread. It is possible that Hawkwing never intended to conquer Tar
Valon.
He was certainly pissed off at all the Aes Sedai interference in Randland
(who wouldn't be) and their manipulation of him in particular but he may not
have wanted to destroy them completely. On the one hand, as long as they
existed they provided a useful whipping boy (girl) for any failures on
Hawkwing's part, e.g. that famine in Amadicia was Aes Sedai work, the
witches, not at all the result of incompetent farm or trade policies on my
part. On the other hand, the existence of Aes Sedai provided credulous
peasants and nobles with a degree of comfort, knowing that they would be
there to defeat the Dark One/Dragon if he ever returned.

So, keeping the Aes Sedai bottled up in Tar Valon by blocking the bridges
with an army but allowing them to receive supplies through the harbours
could well have served Hawkwing's purposes. The Aes Sedai can't interfere in
anything outside Tar Valon itself but they aren't completely wiped out, or
worse, forced underground.

I very much doubt that this is what Jordan intended but it is one plausible
possibility. History and legend could have been distorted - probably by the
Aes Sedai - to make it look like a Hawkwing failure when in fact Hawkwing
got exactly what he wanted.

While we're on the subject of sieges of Tar Valon and since I hardly ever
post to this group, let me just rant a bit about the cuendillar chain thing;
<rant>
What the hell was Jordan thinking with that utterly stupid notion of turning
the chain to cuendillar? So it can't be opened and closed, boats can still
pull up to the chain and be unloaded onto other boats inside the harbour. A
bit of handy Power use by Aes Sedai could make that go as fast as normal
unloading at the harbour. Thinking that hardening the chain somehow blocks
the harbour is stupid, stupid, stupid.
Worse, when I first saw the cuendillar workshop I thought that someone in
the SAS had finally found a clue somewhere. Turn all the soldiers weapons
and armour to cuendillar and you've got an unstoppable fighting machine.
Have them Travel inside the walls and that's it, siege over. But no, that
would require some germ of intelligence from someone in Randland, and we
can't have that.
I know that this is just one more in a long litany of stupid and
unbelievable things in WoT but it pisses me off even more than most.
</rant>

Trade.

[Daniel]

Post by Trade Surplus
Far be it from me to suggest that Jordan ever thought something through
fully before writing it down but one possible explanation came to mind as I
read this thread. It is possible that Hawkwing never intended to conquer Tar
Valon.
He was certainly pissed off at all the Aes Sedai interference in Randland
(who wouldn't be) and their manipulation of him in particular but he may not
have wanted to destroy them completely. On the one hand, as long as they
existed they provided a useful whipping boy (girl) for any failures on
Hawkwing's part, e.g. that famine in Amadicia was Aes Sedai work, the
witches, not at all the result of incompetent farm or trade policies on my
part. On the other hand, the existence of Aes Sedai provided credulous
peasants and nobles with a degree of comfort, knowing that they would be
there to defeat the Dark One/Dragon if he ever returned.

A very political move - if Hawkwing was the ultimate ruler he is made out to
be, he would need to be a great political guru as well as military leader. Such
a policy would have the advantage of keeping his army in the field rather than
going back to their farms and homes if they had conquered all - leaving his
empire open to rebellion with no quick means of suppresion.

Post by Trade Surplus
While we're on the subject of sieges of Tar Valon and since I hardly ever
post to this group, let me just rant a bit about the cuendillar chain thing;
<rant>
What the hell was Jordan thinking with that utterly stupid notion of turning
the chain to cuendillar?

I seem to remember a tale about Constantinople having a chain across its
harbour. Maybe it's an idea that Jordan latched on to.

Post by Trade Surplus
Worse, when I first saw the cuendillar workshop I thought that someone in
the SAS had finally found a clue somewhere. Turn all the soldiers weapons
and armour to cuendillar and you've got an unstoppable fighting machine.

Hmmm - never thought of that.

When I read about it I thought it had to do with the seals - and might still
do. In ACOS (my current re-read) she has a dream about the seals.

Daniel

[Conny Bäcklin]

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 21:57:51 GMT, "Trade Surplus"

Post by Trade Surplus
Worse, when I first saw the cuendillar workshop I thought that someone in
the SAS had finally found a clue somewhere. Turn all the soldiers weapons
and armour to cuendillar and you've got an unstoppable fighting machine.
Have them Travel inside the walls and that's it, siege over. But no, that
would require some germ of intelligence from someone in Randland, and we
can't have that.
I know that this is just one more in a long litany of stupid and
unbelievable things in WoT but it pisses me off even more than most.
</rant>
Trade.

I have to admit that I haven't read CoT yet, so I don't know exactly
how the whole Cuendillar thing works, but making the army's weapons
into Cuendillar isn't a very practical idea for a number of reasons.

1. No full sister would be able to do it, since the second oath
forbids them to make a weapon using the OP.

2. Depending on the properties of Cuendillar you might end up with a
weapon that was heavier/lighter than before, which means that it will
be unbalanced and thus more difficult to use.

3. Since Egwene apparently tries to live by the 3 oaths anyway it's
highly unlikely that she would suggest or approve of the idea, plus
she doesn't exactly come off as someone likely to think of the idea of
enhancing the soldiers' weapons anyway.

A more practical thing would really be to change various pieces of
armour instead, this would be no problem of full sisters meaning you
have more people doing the actual changing, and unless Cuendillar is
much heavier than steel it won't interfere with the effectiveness of a
soldier either.
Of course, you could only change certain types of armour this way due
to the fusing thing so it would mostly be breastplates, armguards and
helmets changed (chainmail would be out completely).

Shields would also be a prime target for change, though from what the
books have put forth so far shields seem to be somewhat rare in armies
in Randland with most infantry using either two-handed swords of
various polearms instead.
A bit odd in itself considering the practicality of a shield in
battle.

Cuendillar armour and shields would have another benefit as well,
since the material absorbs any force directed at it and thus growing
stronger it would mean that any blows blocked by items made of
Cuendillar would have a significant amount of it's force absorbed
rather than transferred onto the target.

It's all pretty much a moot point though since RJ is highly unlikely
to allow any of his characters use anything resembling intelligence in
matters of improving military effectiveness (with a few exceptions)
and most likely he would never allow the world to be flooded by vast
amounts of Cuendillar.

[Garrett L. Schull News]

Post by Conny Bäcklin
On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 21:57:51 GMT, "Trade Surplus"

Post by Trade Surplus
Worse, when I first saw the cuendillar workshop I thought that someone in
the SAS had finally found a clue somewhere. Turn all the soldiers weapons
and armour to cuendillar and you've got an unstoppable fighting machine.
Have them Travel inside the walls and that's it, siege over. But no, that
would require some germ of intelligence from someone in Randland, and we
can't have that.
I know that this is just one more in a long litany of stupid and
unbelievable things in WoT but it pisses me off even more than most.
</rant>
Trade.

I have to admit that I haven't read CoT yet, so I don't know exactly
how the whole Cuendillar thing works, but making the army's weapons
into Cuendillar isn't a very practical idea for a number of reasons.
1. No full sister would be able to do it, since the second oath
forbids them to make a weapon using the OP.
2. Depending on the properties of Cuendillar you might end up with a
weapon that was heavier/lighter than before, which means that it will
be unbalanced and thus more difficult to use.
3. Since Egwene apparently tries to live by the 3 oaths anyway it's
highly unlikely that she would suggest or approve of the idea, plus
she doesn't exactly come off as someone likely to think of the idea of
enhancing the soldiers' weapons anyway.
A more practical thing would really be to change various pieces of
armour instead, this would be no problem of full sisters meaning you
have more people doing the actual changing, and unless Cuendillar is
much heavier than steel it won't interfere with the effectiveness of a
soldier either.
Of course, you could only change certain types of armour this way due
to the fusing thing so it would mostly be breastplates, armguards and
helmets changed (chainmail would be out completely).
Shields would also be a prime target for change, though from what the
books have put forth so far shields seem to be somewhat rare in armies
in Randland with most infantry using either two-handed swords of
various polearms instead.
A bit odd in itself considering the practicality of a shield in
battle.
Cuendillar armour and shields would have another benefit as well,
since the material absorbs any force directed at it and thus growing
stronger it would mean that any blows blocked by items made of
Cuendillar would have a significant amount of it's force absorbed
rather than transferred onto the target.
It's all pretty much a moot point though since RJ is highly unlikely
to allow any of his characters use anything resembling intelligence in
matters of improving military effectiveness (with a few exceptions)
and most likely he would never allow the world to be flooded by vast
amounts of Cuendillar.

Wasn't there some rumors and fears coming into Tar Valon of an Army of the
False Amyriln Armored in cuendillar and travelling inside the walls? I do
not believe that Egwene wishes to crush Tar Valon, she wants it back
actually. The army is a last resort I believe though I am quite positive
she will use it and use it effectively, Jordan wouldn't build it for any
other reason. But Egwene isn't Jordan, she doesn't want to use the Army for
it's purpose at all.

[Garrett L. Schull News]

Post by Kjell Stahl

Post by Conny Bäcklin

Post by Daniel
It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of

Randland

Post by Daniel
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful

convoys

Post by Daniel
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.

They did. There were still large bodies of disaffected nobles backing the
AS.
They used their minor estates to continue shipping to TV.

Shipping from where exactly? It's not like Tar Valon could survive on a
couple of small fast ships a month. We're talking about one of the
largest cities in Randland being supplied, not only with food but also
every other necessary thing (wood/coal for heating etc), supplied
_solely_ by ships for _twenty_ years. You'd need several big shiploads
_every day_, and I mean _big_ cargo vessels. Not to mention that these
ship's would have to go somewhere when they had unloaded, it's not like
they all could stay in Tar Valon's harbours.
So no, no matter how many disgruntled nobles were sympathetic to Tar
Valon, they couldn't have pulled off a thing like that. Hawking can not
have had _that_ bad a grip on his subjects.
It's more likely that Jordan didn't think it through beforehand.

This river is flowing with as many ships as there are drops of water
commerce up and down river the only way to black the harbor without blocking
the river is at the harbor mouth.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Kjell Stahl

Post by Conny Bäcklin

Post by Daniel
It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of

Randland

Post by Daniel
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful

convoys

Post by Daniel
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.

They did. There were still large bodies of disaffected nobles backing the
AS.
They used their minor estates to continue shipping to TV.

Shipping from where exactly? It's not like Tar Valon could survive on a
couple of small fast ships a month. We're talking about one of the
largest cities in Randland being supplied, not only with food but also
every other necessary thing (wood/coal for heating etc), supplied
_solely_ by ships for _twenty_ years. You'd need several big shiploads
_every day_, and I mean _big_ cargo vessels. Not to mention that these
ship's would have to go somewhere when they had unloaded, it's not like
they all could stay in Tar Valon's harbours.
So no, no matter how many disgruntled nobles were sympathetic to Tar
Valon, they couldn't have pulled off a thing like that. Hawking can not
have had _that_ bad a grip on his subjects.
It's more likely that Jordan didn't think it through beforehand.

Will the above discussion go into the FAQ?

[Daniel Holm]

***@aol.com (Daniel) wrote in message news:<***@mb-m24.aol.com>...
*snip talk of smugglers*

Post by Daniel
It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of Randland
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful convoys
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.
Daniel

I doubt Hawkwing was as powerful as history proclaimed him to be
(recall how Thom tells Elayne of Hawkwings "hundred duels in a day".
History is written by the winners). Sure, he ruled the land in name,
and he was certainly the most powerful ruler in the history of
Randland since the Breaking. But I doubt he could stamp on the Aes
Sedai supporters that easily... They were MUCH more powerful back then
than they are now. At least in the One Power. People don't like
talking against Aes Sedai. The thought of the One Power scares most
nobles, and even with Hawkwing ruling, that alone probably was enough
to convince the nobles to keep the Aes Sedai alive.

On a different note, the Aes Sedai could form circles and use the One
Power to grow food inside Tar Valon. Recall how Elaida grew roses in
the middle of the drought?
Of course, it's impossible for the Aes Sedai to grow enough food
inside the walls to keep the entire city alive, but they have Keepings
to stop the food from rotting. With that and the smuggling they
probably had plenty of food, under the circumstances.

-Daniel Holm

[Adam Canning]

Post by Daniel Holm
*snip talk of smugglers*

Post by Daniel
It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of Randland
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful convoys
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.
Daniel

I doubt Hawkwing was as powerful as history proclaimed him to be
(recall how Thom tells Elayne of Hawkwings "hundred duels in a day".
History is written by the winners). Sure, he ruled the land in name,
and he was certainly the most powerful ruler in the history of
Randland since the Breaking. But I doubt he could stamp on the Aes
Sedai supporters that easily... They were MUCH more powerful back then
than they are now. At least in the One Power. People don't like
talking against Aes Sedai. The thought of the One Power scares most
nobles, and even with Hawkwing ruling, that alone probably was enough
to convince the nobles to keep the Aes Sedai alive.

And when he turned againste them he lost a good chunk of his
administrative support. [IIRC Aes Sedai provided a noticible fraction of
his govenors and the like, before the siege.]

Post by Daniel Holm
On a different note, the Aes Sedai could form circles and use the One
Power to grow food inside Tar Valon. Recall how Elaida grew roses in
the middle of the drought?
Of course, it's impossible for the Aes Sedai to grow enough food
inside the walls to keep the entire city alive,

Actually leaves the question where does Tar Valon normally get its food.
There seems to be nothing other than the bridge villages around and they
are small. No Market Towns or the like.

[Richard Boye']

Post by Adam Canning

Post by Daniel Holm
*snip talk of smugglers*

Post by Daniel
It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of Randland
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful convoys
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.

On a different note, the Aes Sedai could form circles and use the One
Power to grow food inside Tar Valon. Recall how Elaida grew roses in
the middle of the drought?
Of course, it's impossible for the Aes Sedai to grow enough food
inside the walls to keep the entire city alive,

Actually leaves the question where does Tar Valon normally get its food.
There seems to be nothing other than the bridge villages around and they
are small. No Market Towns or the like.

Bah.

Of course there are small farming towns everywhere, frex, Gawyn and the
Dumblings are set up in Dorlan, a small town that even specializes in
making Tar Valon's cheese. Dorlan isn't one of the six bridge towns.

Besides, there are warehouses which handle the the grain shipments from
the riverine trade. But I think we can safely assume that there are
enough peasants nearby to supply the city with fresh produce - every
description we see has the city packed with traders and farmers.

[J.Hamby]

Post by Richard Boye'

Post by Adam Canning

Post by Daniel Holm
*snip talk of smugglers*

Post by Daniel
It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of Randland
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful convoys
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.

On a different note, the Aes Sedai could form circles and use the One
Power to grow food inside Tar Valon. Recall how Elaida grew roses in
the middle of the drought?
Of course, it's impossible for the Aes Sedai to grow enough food
inside the walls to keep the entire city alive,

Actually leaves the question where does Tar Valon normally get its food.
There seems to be nothing other than the bridge villages around and they
are small. No Market Towns or the like.

Bah.
Of course there are small farming towns everywhere, frex, Gawyn and the
Dumblings are set up in Dorlan, a small town that even specializes in
making Tar Valon's cheese. Dorlan isn't one of the six bridge towns.
Besides, there are warehouses which handle the the grain shipments from
the riverine trade. But I think we can safely assume that there are
enough peasants nearby to supply the city with fresh produce - every
description we see has the city packed with traders and farmers.

If Jordan had any sense, he would reveal that the Tower has underwritten
half of the merchant concerns in Randland. He seems to hint that the
Kin have in part existed due to their rather succesful ventures.

Salita's silliness though in CoT may suggest that the AS are above
commerce. Yeah, right. That flies with Tar Valon the largest city
in Randland.

---
JSH

[Adam Canning]

Post by J.Hamby

Post by Richard Boye'

Post by Adam Canning

Post by Daniel Holm
*snip talk of smugglers*

Post by Daniel
It just makes me think - was Hawkwing truely the complete hegemon of Randland
that he seemed - the only way that Tar Valon could have had successful convoys
(a la UK in the Second World War), would be if they had outside help from
nation-like groups.

On a different note, the Aes Sedai could form circles and use the One
Power to grow food inside Tar Valon. Recall how Elaida grew roses in
the middle of the drought?
Of course, it's impossible for the Aes Sedai to grow enough food
inside the walls to keep the entire city alive,

Actually leaves the question where does Tar Valon normally get its food.
There seems to be nothing other than the bridge villages around and they
are small. No Market Towns or the like.

Bah.
Of course there are small farming towns everywhere, frex, Gawyn and the
Dumblings are set up in Dorlan, a small town that even specializes in
making Tar Valon's cheese. Dorlan isn't one of the six bridge towns.
Besides, there are warehouses which handle the the grain shipments from
the riverine trade. But I think we can safely assume that there are
enough peasants nearby to supply the city with fresh produce - every
description we see has the city packed with traders and farmers.

If Jordan had any sense, he would reveal that the Tower has underwritten
half of the merchant concerns in Randland. He seems to hint that the
Kin have in part existed due to their rather succesful ventures.
Salita's silliness though in CoT may suggest that the AS are above
commerce. Yeah, right. That flies with Tar Valon the largest city
in Randland.

Obviously the Gaidin make sure that sort of thing happens, since they
couldn't trust the Aes Sedai to.

[Andrew Watkins]

Post by Conny Bäcklin
1. No full sister would be able to do it, since the second oath
forbids them to make a weapon using the OP.

Ah, but the Aes Sedai are famous for their "half-truths." They aren't
making a weapon with the OP - they're modifying it.

[Paul W. Lints]

Subject: Re: Artur Hawkwing's Tar Valon invasion
Date: 11/6/2003 2:08 PM Pacific Standard Time

Post by Daniel
Well this is more of a nit.
In ACOS (An Oath UK edition 219-220p)Bryne tells Egwene that the crucial

factor

Post by Daniel
is to blockade Northharbor and Southharbor. Hawking never succeded in doing

so

Post by Daniel
and hence could never take Tar Valon .
Why is the crucial factor blocking the harbour mouths specifically? Why no
simply block the river further downstream and upstream? It's all just the

one

Post by Daniel
river so it's not as if ships can miraculousy appear. With Hawkwing's
resources, surely this would not have been a problem.

Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

Because Aes Sedai could still use the Ways. They probably kept them secret
from the common people, so that they would not know Aes Sedai had such
travelling power. IIRC, the Ways bad after the War of a Hundred Years, which
was after the fall of Hawkwing.

[ireadeverything776]

Post by Daniel

Subject: Re: Artur Hawkwing's Tar Valon invasion
Date: 11/6/2003 2:08 PM Pacific Standard Time

Post by Daniel
Well this is more of a nit.
In ACOS (An Oath UK edition 219-220p)Bryne tells Egwene that the crucial

factor

Post by Daniel
is to blockade Northharbor and Southharbor. Hawking never succeded in doing

so

Post by Daniel
and hence could never take Tar Valon .
Why is the crucial factor blocking the harbour mouths specifically? Why no
simply block the river further downstream and upstream? It's all just the

one

Post by Daniel
river so it's not as if ships can miraculousy appear. With Hawkwing's
resources, surely this would not have been a problem.

HA! Egwene is too busy mounting lace, pressing down her skirt, or
steadying her broken chair to worry abot properly sieging Tar valon.
Well at least according to RJ that is.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Kjell Stahl

Post by Daniel
Well this is more of a nit.
In ACOS (An Oath UK edition 219-220p)Bryne tells Egwene that the crucial factor
is to blockade Northharbor and Southharbor. Hawking never succeded in doing so
and hence could never take Tar Valon .
Why is the crucial factor blocking the harbour mouths specifically? Why no
simply block the river further downstream and upstream? It's all just the one
river so it's not as if ships can miraculousy appear. With Hawkwing's
resources, surely this would not have been a problem.

Or, since Hawkwing was the supreme ruler over every bit of land except
that owned by Tar Valon, why didn't he simply forbid ships to travel
there?

He probably did, but many of his subjects disagreed with his war against the White
Tower, and smuggled supplies to the WT.

[Conny Bäcklin]

Post by Daniel
Well this is more of a nit.
In ACOS (An Oath UK edition 219-220p)Bryne tells Egwene that the crucial factor
is to blockade Northharbor and Southharbor. Hawking never succeded in doing so
and hence could never take Tar Valon .
Why is the crucial factor blocking the harbour mouths specifically? Why no
simply block the river further downstream and upstream? It's all just the one
river so it's not as if ships can miraculousy appear. With Hawkwing's
resources, surely this would not have been a problem.
Any thoughts/ideas? Is there something I'm missing?
Daniel

Well, the river Erinin is about 2 miles across at Tar Valon so it's
not exactly easy to block it off.
Also add in the fact that in Randland there seems to be little
experience with using various siege engines, such as catapults
throwing pots filled with naphta or oil at ships trying to break
through a blockade which would be the easiest way to block river
traffic, though of course at some point where it isn't quite so wide.

The only other options would be to use small fast ships to overtake
anyone trying to pass and then either shoot fire arrows or board the
other vessel, and you would still have immense trouble to keep the
traffic down to a minimum.

This essentially means that the only way to really block Tar Valon is
at the north and south harbour, and this still means blocking a
passage that is somewhere around one mile wide.

[Daniel]

Post by Conny Bäcklin
The only other options would be to use small fast ships to overtake
anyone trying to pass and then either shoot fire arrows or board the
other vessel, and you would still have immense trouble to keep the
traffic down to a minimum.

Still even this would be relatively easy. You station a vessel in the middle of
the river - or simply on either bank with torches and signal if there are any
ships detected moving on the river. Further down the line the actual
interception vessels will then be prepared for any blockade runners.

It just seems improbable that Hawkwing found no way of blocking the river
access to Tar Valon.

Bryne also mentions that it's population is as large as Caemlyn and Cairhein
combined. Even saying that the population is say, 100,000 people, that's a lot
of food. There would need to be regular shipments of supplies. The only way
that Tar Valon could have surrvived without starving to death would be if the
Aes Sedai evacuated the vast majority of the civilian population beforehand.

Daniel

[Jody]

Post by Daniel

Post by Conny Bäcklin
The only other options would be to use small fast ships to

overtake

Post by Daniel

Post by Conny Bäcklin
anyone trying to pass and then either shoot fire arrows or

board the

Post by Daniel

Post by Conny Bäcklin
other vessel, and you would still have immense trouble to keep the
traffic down to a minimum.

Still even this would be relatively easy. You station a vessel

in the middle of

Post by Daniel
the river - or simply on either bank with torches and signal if there are any
ships detected moving on the river. Further down the line the

actual

Post by Daniel
interception vessels will then be prepared for any blockade

runners.
Interesting topic.
I would think they'd stand a far better chance of success,
say, -at least- 20-40km from Tar Valon itself, and to break a
blockade of superior forces, you'd probably need to be coming down
river (extra mometum?)

All it would take is for Tar Valon to create some kind of thick
river fog to disable any close blockade like Moiraine created in
book 1 early (sure, this would make it difficult for smuggler's
too, but i'm sure someone could come up with something ..).

Perhaps Tar Valon can be far more self sufficient then guessed,
and the population of the time just included the Aes
Sedai/servants and a small village(the rest of the town relocated
for safety etc).

Hey, if i expected the seige to last twenty years, i'd be be
damning both sides of the river! That or making some sandbars :)

20 years -is- a long seige..Maybe 20 years is the entire war, not
just the seige?

random thoughts,
jo

[Davian]

Post by Jody
Perhaps Tar Valon can be far more self sufficient then guessed,
and the population of the time just included the Aes
Sedai/servants and a small village(the rest of the town relocated
for safety etc).

Except of course for all the soldiers needed to hold the walls against the
army camped on both sides of the river.

Also, we've been repeatedly beaten over the head with the idea that Aes
Sedai numbers are shrinking, that the White Tower, once completely full, is
now nearly empty. And nation populations in general. There would be more
people than there are today.

Post by Jody
20 years -is- a long seige..Maybe 20 years is the entire war, not
just the seige?

It's specificly stated that the siege of Tar Valon lasted 20 years.

[Azrael]

Post by Davian
Also, we've been repeatedly beaten over the head with the idea that Aes
Sedai numbers are shrinking, that the White Tower, once completely full, is
now nearly empty.

Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 6/11/2003

[Zdenek Dvorak]

Hello,

Post by Davian

Post by Davian
Also, we've been repeatedly beaten over the head with the idea that

Aes

Post by Davian
Sedai numbers are shrinking, that the White Tower, once completely

full, is

Post by Davian
now nearly empty.

Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

I don't recall this, but certainly it is stated in the Guide.

Zdenek

[Kevin Bealer]

Post by Davian

Post by Davian
Also, we've been repeatedly beaten over the head with the idea that

Aes

Post by Davian
Sedai numbers are shrinking, that the White Tower, once completely

full, is

Post by Davian
now nearly empty.

Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.

Kevin

Post by Davian
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 6/11/2003

[Straniero Vietato]

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Azrael
Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.
Kevin

Not a chance. Read the TEOTW prologue. LTT _created_ the island of
Tar Valon when he OD'ed on the power. There was no tower in sight
beforehand. Obviously there was some sort of organization to the AOL
AS in Paren Disen but the actual edifice of the Tower wasn't built
until after LTT's death.

-Drew R.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Post by Straniero Vietato

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Azrael
Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.
Kevin

Not a chance. Read the TEOTW prologue. LTT _created_ the island of
Tar Valon when he OD'ed on the power. There was no tower in sight
beforehand. Obviously there was some sort of organization to the AOL
AS in Paren Disen but the actual edifice of the Tower wasn't built
until after LTT's death.
-Drew R.

The AS were very organized, though they only had loose ajahs with
others, until a project was completed. I think they were organized
much the same way that academia is organized today.

LTT created the Dragonmount, not the island.

Steve Craig

[Davian]

Post by Schrodinger's Cat
LTT created the Dragonmount, not the island.

_The Eye of the World_ "Prologue: Dragonmount" pg xiii

"Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky, molten lava
still gushing from its broken peak. The broad, straight river had been
pushed into a curve away from the mountain, and there it split to form a
long island in its midst."

Certainly sounds to me like the "creation" of the Tar Valon island was a
direct result of LTT creating Dragonmount.

[Paul Wilkins]

Post by Davian
_The Eye of the World_ "Prologue: Dragonmount" pg xiii
"Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky, molten lava
still gushing from its broken peak. The broad, straight river had been
pushed into a curve away from the mountain, and there it split to form a
long island in its midst."
Certainly sounds to me like the "creation" of the Tar Valon island was a
direct result of LTT creating Dragonmount.

Thankyou yes, and we also have

The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time "Formation of the White
Tower" page 91

"Construction of what was to become the central city of Aes Sedai power,
Tar Valon, placed on the island of the same name, did not begin until 98
AB."

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Post by Paul Wilkins

Post by Davian
_The Eye of the World_ "Prologue: Dragonmount" pg xiii
"Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky, molten lava
still gushing from its broken peak. The broad, straight river had been
pushed into a curve away from the mountain, and there it split to form a
long island in its midst."
Certainly sounds to me like the "creation" of the Tar Valon island was a
direct result of LTT creating Dragonmount.

Thankyou yes, and we also have
The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time "Formation of the White
Tower" page 91
"Construction of what was to become the central city of Aes Sedai power,
Tar Valon, placed on the island of the same name, did not begin until 98
AB."

My apologies, I mis-spoke.

I never, before, realized that the creation of the dragonmount was
resposible for the island.

Steve Craig

[Garrett L. Schull News]

Post by Straniero Vietato

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Azrael
Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.
Kevin

Not a chance. Read the TEOTW prologue. LTT _created_ the island of
Tar Valon when he OD'ed on the power. There was no tower in sight
beforehand. Obviously there was some sort of organization to the AOL
AS in Paren Disen but the actual edifice of the Tower wasn't built
until after LTT's death.
-Drew R.

Dragonmount was created by LTT's Od on the power not Tar Valon, though you
are right at the time of his death the island was not the Center of the Aes
Sedai power. The center of Aes Sedai power from the Age of Legends was so
balefired by insane male Aes Sedai that all legends of it are nearly even
erased (AOL Aes Sedai stronghold).

[Peter Reid]

Post by Garrett L. Schull News

Post by Straniero Vietato

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Azrael
Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.
Kevin

Not a chance. Read the TEOTW prologue. LTT _created_ the island of
Tar Valon when he OD'ed on the power. There was no tower in sight
beforehand. Obviously there was some sort of organization to the AOL
AS in Paren Disen but the actual edifice of the Tower wasn't built
until after LTT's death.
-Drew R.

Dragonmount was created by LTT's Od on the power not Tar Valon, though you
are right at the time of his death the island was not the Center of the Aes
Sedai power. The center of Aes Sedai power from the Age of Legends was so
balefired by insane male Aes Sedai that all legends of it are nearly even
erased (AOL Aes Sedai stronghold).

For the last time, _read_ the darn prologue. The island is created at
the same time Dragonmount is...before that the river ran straight,
afterwards the river split to form the island of what is now Tar Valon.

[Kyle Storm]

Post by Peter Reid

Post by Garrett L. Schull News

Post by Straniero Vietato

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Azrael
Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.
Kevin

Not a chance. Read the TEOTW prologue. LTT _created_ the island of
Tar Valon when he OD'ed on the power. There was no tower in sight
beforehand. Obviously there was some sort of organization to the AOL
AS in Paren Disen but the actual edifice of the Tower wasn't built
until after LTT's death.
-Drew R.

Dragonmount was created by LTT's Od on the power not Tar Valon, though you
are right at the time of his death the island was not the Center of the Aes
Sedai power. The center of Aes Sedai power from the Age of Legends was so
balefired by insane male Aes Sedai that all legends of it are nearly even
erased (AOL Aes Sedai stronghold).

For the last time, _read_ the darn prologue. The island is created at
the same time Dragonmount is...before that the river ran straight,
afterwards the river split to form the island of what is now Tar Valon.

Or just read the last two pages of the prologue. Dragonmount is
raised, the river shifts, the island is created. Ishmael materializes
on the actual island. Now it doesn't come right out and say that this
is where Tar Valon will be built, but you can infer that from other
info given through the series.

Storm

[Kyle Storm]

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Davian

Post by Davian
Also, we've been repeatedly beaten over the head with the idea that

Aes

Post by Davian
Sedai numbers are shrinking, that the White Tower, once completely

full, is

Post by Davian
now nearly empty.

Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.
Kevin

Post by Davian
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 6/11/2003

The tower does not date back to the AoL. It was created after the
Breaking. In the Prologue of tEotW, the Dragon destroys himself as he
creates Dragonmount. This saidin-powered volcanic activity alters the
course of a nearby river to create the island where Tar Valon will be
built.

Storm

[Dave Rothgery]

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Azrael
Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.

A couple people downthread mentioned that the island of Tar Valon
doesn't date back to the AoL, so the Tower couldn't possibly. More
importantly, though, the plans for building Tar Valon are mentioned in
Rand's flashbacks among the columns in Rhudien.

[Adam Canning]

Post by Dave Rothgery

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Azrael
Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.

A couple people downthread mentioned that the island of Tar Valon
doesn't date back to the AoL, so the Tower couldn't possibly. More
importantly, though, the plans for building Tar Valon are mentioned in
Rand's flashbacks among the columns in Rhudien.

According to the World of .. book, Construction of Tar Valon begins in 98
AB . The White Tower itself is not completed for over a hundred years,
though Eliene Tishar has been the first Amyrlin Seat for several years
closely advised by Kiam Lopaing and six of the twelve who signed the 47AB
letter. The period between the 47AB letter [Which seems to date the
decision to build Tar Valon] and the begining of construction appears to
have been filled with confrontational politics [It appears one of the
twelve and her followers were stilled around 77AB, cowing another into
line].

[Kevin Bealer]

Post by Adam Canning

Post by Dave Rothgery

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Azrael
Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.

A couple people downthread mentioned that the island of Tar Valon
doesn't date back to the AoL, so the Tower couldn't possibly. More
importantly, though, the plans for building Tar Valon are mentioned in
Rand's flashbacks among the columns in Rhudien.

According to the World of .. book, Construction of Tar Valon begins in 98
AB . The White Tower itself is not completed for over a hundred years,
though Eliene Tishar has been the first Amyrlin Seat for several years
closely advised by Kiam Lopaing and six of the twelve who signed the 47AB
letter. The period between the 47AB letter [Which seems to date the
decision to build Tar Valon] and the begining of construction appears to
have been filled with confrontational politics [It appears one of the
twelve and her followers were stilled around 77AB, cowing another into
line].

Oops, sorry about that then... I only read through these books once so
far, and there are large gaps in my memory of these passages. They seem
to be filled in with memories from a different, stranger time, and vague
oddities such as "computers" and motor cars.

Kevin

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Kevin Bealer

Post by Davian

Post by Davian
Also, we've been repeatedly beaten over the head with the idea that

Aes

Post by Davian
Sedai numbers are shrinking, that the White Tower, once completely

full, is

Post by Davian
now nearly empty.

Actually, you'll find that the Tower has never been near full. I
can't recall where exactly, but a POV from a AS was thinking that the
tower had never had enough women to fill all the rooms. I think it's
somewhere in relation to the BA hunters in the later books.

Does the tower date back to the AOL? If so, this makes sense right? It
would include enough rooms for male and female channelers - and we can
assume the population was significantly more then, because of the higher
level of (power supported) usable technology (all across randland) to
support a larger population.

The WT was built after the Breaking. It was being built in 98 AB and took
until early in the 3rd century AB.

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Daniel
It just seems improbable that Hawkwing found no way of blocking the river
access to Tar Valon.

The problem is that you *can't*. He couldn't block all ships from Tar
Valon, because that would cut one half of the river off from the other and
deprive his own empire of shipping capacity any empire needs desperately.

Jasper

[Owen Pope]

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Daniel
It just seems improbable that Hawkwing found no way of
blocking the river access to Tar Valon.

The problem is that you *can't*. He couldn't block all
ships from Tar Valon, because that would cut one half of
the river off from the other and deprive his own empire of
shipping capacity any empire needs desperately.

Maybe not, but you *can* post your own warships outside of the
harbors, and waste any ships that attempt to enter or leave.
Sure, the Tower might be able to fight you off for a while, but
Hawkwing could surely afford a war of attrition. And they don't
need to get all of the blockade runners to make a significant
impact.

-Owen

[Garrett L. Schull News]

Post by Owen Pope

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Daniel
It just seems improbable that Hawkwing found no way of
blocking the river access to Tar Valon.

The problem is that you *can't*. He couldn't block all
ships from Tar Valon, because that would cut one half of
the river off from the other and deprive his own empire of
shipping capacity any empire needs desperately.

Maybe not, but you *can* post your own warships outside of the
harbors, and waste any ships that attempt to enter or leave.
Sure, the Tower might be able to fight you off for a while, but
Hawkwing could surely afford a war of attrition. And they don't
need to get all of the blockade runners to make a significant
impact.
-Owen

The only way to block the harbors would likely be to fill the gaps with
debris like sunken ships making them impassible. Aes Sedai could just use
powerful water currents to remove such obstacles. Hence the use of
Cuendillar chain instead.

[Garrett L. Schull News]

Post by Daniel

Post by Conny Bäcklin
The only other options would be to use small fast ships to overtake
anyone trying to pass and then either shoot fire arrows or board the
other vessel, and you would still have immense trouble to keep the
traffic down to a minimum.

Still even this would be relatively easy. You station a vessel in the middle of
the river - or simply on either bank with torches and signal if there are any
ships detected moving on the river. Further down the line the actual
interception vessels will then be prepared for any blockade runners.
It just seems improbable that Hawkwing found no way of blocking the river
access to Tar Valon.
Bryne also mentions that it's population is as large as Caemlyn and Cairhein
combined. Even saying that the population is say, 100,000 people, that's a lot
of food. There would need to be regular shipments of supplies. The only way
that Tar Valon could have surrvived without starving to death would be if the
Aes Sedai evacuated the vast majority of the civilian population beforehand.
Daniel

This is a river of major commerce you are talking about spotting smugglers?
All they have to do is turn into the harbor at the last minute while all
the hundred other ships continue on.

[Owen Pope]

Post by Daniel

Post by Daniel

Post by Conny Bäcklin
The only other options would be to use small fast ships
to overtake anyone trying to pass and then either shoot
fire arrows or board the other vessel, and you would
still have immense trouble to keep the traffic down to a
minimum.

Still even this would be relatively easy. You station a
vessel in the

middle of

Post by Daniel
the river - or simply on either bank with torches and
signal if there are

any

Post by Daniel
ships detected moving on the river. Further down the line
the actual interception vessels will then be prepared for
any blockade runners.
It just seems improbable that Hawkwing found no way of
blocking the river access to Tar Valon.
Bryne also mentions that it's population is as large as
Caemlyn and

Cairhein

Post by Daniel
combined. Even saying that the population is say, 100,000
people, that's a

lot

Post by Daniel
of food. There would need to be regular shipments of
supplies. The only

way

Post by Daniel
that Tar Valon could have surrvived without starving to
death would be if

the

Post by Daniel
Aes Sedai evacuated the vast majority of the civilian
population

beforehand.

Post by Daniel
Daniel

This is a river of major commerce you are talking about
spotting smugglers? All they have to do is turn into the
harbor at the last minute while all the hundred other
ships continue on.

And then you seize their ships when they come out. Make an
example of them. Hawkwing had enormous resources; surely he
could afford a few warships to park outside the harbours.

-Owen

[garrett schull]

Post by Owen Pope

Post by Daniel

Post by Daniel

Post by Conny Bäcklin
The only other options would be to use small fast ships
to overtake anyone trying to pass and then either shoot
fire arrows or board the other vessel, and you would
still have immense trouble to keep the traffic down to a
minimum.

Still even this would be relatively easy. You station a
vessel in the

middle of

Post by Daniel
the river - or simply on either bank with torches and
signal if there are

any

Post by Daniel
ships detected moving on the river. Further down the line
the actual interception vessels will then be prepared for
any blockade runners.
It just seems improbable that Hawkwing found no way of
blocking the river access to Tar Valon.
Bryne also mentions that it's population is as large as
Caemlyn and

Cairhein

Post by Daniel
combined. Even saying that the population is say, 100,000
people, that's a

lot

Post by Daniel
of food. There would need to be regular shipments of
supplies. The only

way

Post by Daniel
that Tar Valon could have surrvived without starving to
death would be if

the

Post by Daniel
Aes Sedai evacuated the vast majority of the civilian
population

beforehand.

Post by Daniel
Daniel

This is a river of major commerce you are talking about
spotting smugglers? All they have to do is turn into the
harbor at the last minute while all the hundred other
ships continue on.

And then you seize their ships when they come out. Make an
example of them. Hawkwing had enormous resources; surely he
could afford a few warships to park outside the harbours.
-Owen

Granted Aes Sedai can't kill or directly harm people with the power. Would
you really want to get your boats in range of the witches power? They could
mess the hull of your boat up so that it began getting water logged, or rust
all your soldiers armor, who knows... Anyhow you are right the ships would
need to leave the harbor and they could be easily spotted while doing so. I
don't quite recall if Hawkwing had any control over the sea folk but surely
they could have contributed greatly to the tar Valon siege especially if
Hawkwing didn't have ships that could chase down their rakers.

[Owen Pope]

Post by garrett schull

Post by Owen Pope

Post by Daniel

Post by Daniel

Post by Conny Bäcklin
The only other options would be to use small fast
ships to overtake anyone trying to pass and then
either shoot fire arrows or board the other vessel,
and you would still have immense trouble to keep the
traffic down to a minimum.

Still even this would be relatively easy. You station a
vessel in the

middle of

Post by Daniel
the river - or simply on either bank with torches and
signal if there are

any

Post by Daniel
ships detected moving on the river. Further down the
line the actual interception vessels will then be
prepared for any blockade runners.
It just seems improbable that Hawkwing found no way of
blocking the river access to Tar Valon.
Bryne also mentions that it's population is as large as
Caemlyn and

Cairhein

Post by Daniel
combined. Even saying that the population is say,
100,000 people, that's a

lot

Post by Daniel
of food. There would need to be regular shipments of
supplies. The only

way

Post by Daniel
that Tar Valon could have surrvived without starving to
death would be if

the

Post by Daniel
Aes Sedai evacuated the vast majority of the civilian
population

beforehand.

Post by Daniel
Daniel

This is a river of major commerce you are talking about
spotting smugglers? All they have to do is turn into the
harbor at the last minute while all the hundred other
ships continue on.

And then you seize their ships when they come out. Make
an example of them. Hawkwing had enormous resources;
surely he could afford a few warships to park outside the
harbours.
-Owen

Granted Aes Sedai can't kill or directly harm people with
the power. Would you really want to get your boats in
range of the witches power? They could mess the hull of
your boat up so that it began getting water logged, or rust
all your soldiers armor, who knows... Anyhow you are right
the ships would need to leave the harbor and they could be
easily spotted while doing so. I don't quite recall if
Hawkwing had any control over the sea folk but surely they
could have contributed greatly to the tar Valon siege
especially if Hawkwing didn't have ships that could chase
down their rakers.

Right. But they still can't do anything that will conceivably
kill anyone.

On the blockade, Hawkwing could post watchers near the
harbors, and warn the fleets up- or down-stream which ships
entered the harbor.
Or he could just shut off all (or even half) river traffic for
a few weeks. Sure, it would be costly, but he was supposedly
monomaniacal in his vendetta against the Aes Sedai. Sure a
few blockade runners may get through, but that's not enough to
supply a city.

The point is that Hawkwing had enormous resources. Given what
we know about the Aes Sedai, he should have had no problem
besieging one city, no matter how well-defended. However, we
have no real idea what allies the Aes Sedai had, except that
they must have been considerable.

-Owen

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Daniel

Post by Conny Bäcklin
The only other options would be to use small fast ships to overtake
anyone trying to pass and then either shoot fire arrows or board the
other vessel, and you would still have immense trouble to keep the
traffic down to a minimum.

Still even this would be relatively easy. You station a vessel in the middle of
the river - or simply on either bank with torches and signal if there are any
ships detected moving on the river. Further down the line the actual
interception vessels will then be prepared for any blockade runners.
It just seems improbable that Hawkwing found no way of blocking the river
access to Tar Valon.
Bryne also mentions that it's population is as large as Caemlyn and Cairhein
combined. Even saying that the population is say, 100,000 people, that's a lot
of food. There would need to be regular shipments of supplies. The only way
that Tar Valon could have surrvived without starving to death would be if the
Aes Sedai evacuated the vast majority of the civilian population beforehand.

Someone suggested that the AS used the Ways (which hadn't yet gotten corrupt) to
import supplies.

[Tim Bruening]

AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising
(Paperback), Chapter 47:

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I believe I have caught Siuan Sanche telling an outright lie, at a time
when
she was still bound by the Three Oaths. In tSR, Chapter 47, Elaida
springs
her infamous coup. Elaida and her supporters walk into Siuan's office
and
Shield her from the OP as Elaida calmly removes Siuan's stole and
informs
her that she has been removed from the Amyrlin seat. Elaida then binds
Siuan with Air. On page 766 of the paperback tSR, Siuan angrily tells
Elaida that "There has never been a rebellion inside the Tower".
However,
at the bottom of page 247 in Chapter 12 of ACOS, Egwene thinks to
herself
that there have been six mutinies in the White Tower's history, hidden
away
in the Tower's secret histories. The secret histories are accessible
only
to the Amyrlin, Keeper, Sitters, and a few librarians. I believe that
Amyrlin Siuan would have had access to the secret histories and thus
would
have known about the six mutinies. Therefore, I believe that Siuan lied
when
she said that there had never been a rebellion in the Tower, at a time
when
Siuan was still bound by the First Oath (she hadn't been Stilled yet).
Here
are the sources of my belief that Amyrlin Siuan knew about the
rebellions in
the hidden records:

On page 25, Amyrlin Elaida thinks about the ancient rebellions buried in
the
secret records open only to Amyrlin, Keeper, and Sitters. If Amyrlin
Elaida
knows about those rebellions, then so did Amyrlin Siuan. On pages 156,
212
and 246 are indications that Siuan was familiar with the Tower's secret
history. On page 156, Egwene muses to herself that Siuan had told her
secret details of some of the odd things that have happened in the
Tower.
On page 212, in the last paragraph, Egwene comments that she doubts that
anyone has ever been raised Amyrlin without first being a full Aes
Sedai,
and thinks to herself that that comment should have elicited a comment
from
Siuan about the Tower's hidden records. At the top of page 246, Siuan
says
that there is nothing in the secret records about Amyrlins demanding
oaths
of fealty.

[Scott Clark]

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising
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I believe I have caught Siuan Sanche telling an outright lie, at a time
when
she was still bound by the Three Oaths. In tSR, Chapter 47, Elaida
springs
her infamous coup. Elaida and her supporters walk into Siuan's office
and
Shield her from the OP as Elaida calmly removes Siuan's stole and
informs
her that she has been removed from the Amyrlin seat. Elaida then binds
Siuan with Air. On page 766 of the paperback tSR, Siuan angrily tells
Elaida that "There has never been a rebellion inside the Tower".
However,
at the bottom of page 247 in Chapter 12 of ACOS, Egwene thinks to
herself
that there have been six mutinies in the White Tower's history, hidden
away
in the Tower's secret histories. The secret histories are accessible
only
to the Amyrlin, Keeper, Sitters, and a few librarians. I believe that
Amyrlin Siuan would have had access to the secret histories and thus
would
have known about the six mutinies. Therefore, I believe that Siuan lied
when
she said that there had never been a rebellion in the Tower, at a time
when
Siuan was still bound by the First Oath (she hadn't been Stilled yet).
Here
are the sources of my belief that Amyrlin Siuan knew about the
rebellions in
On page 25, Amyrlin Elaida thinks about the ancient rebellions buried in
the
secret records open only to Amyrlin, Keeper, and Sitters. If Amyrlin
Elaida
knows about those rebellions, then so did Amyrlin Siuan. On pages 156,
212
and 246 are indications that Siuan was familiar with the Tower's secret
history. On page 156, Egwene muses to herself that Siuan had told her
secret details of some of the odd things that have happened in the
Tower.
On page 212, in the last paragraph, Egwene comments that she doubts that
anyone has ever been raised Amyrlin without first being a full Aes
Sedai,
and thinks to herself that that comment should have elicited a comment
from
Siuan about the Tower's hidden records. At the top of page 246, Siuan
says
that there is nothing in the secret records about Amyrlins demanding
oaths
of fealty.

Some possibilities:

1. The Aes Sedai who mutinied before did so while outside of the Tower.
2. Siuan is drawing a distinction between mutiny and rebellion. Mutiny
is "Open rebellion against constituted authority." (dictionary.com)
Rebellion, on the other hand, is "Open, armed, and organized resistance
to a constituted government." (ibid) These are not the only
definitions, by any means, but they do offer a reasonable
interpretation. The "mutinies" could have been covert obstruction
rather than open rebellion. Or, she could be drawing a distinction
between rank-and-file AS mutinying against the Hall and the Hall
rebelling against the Amyrlin.

These are just what I came up with in about five seconds of thought.
I'm sure more possibilities exist. Basically, most likely all you've
found is a typical example of AS doublespeak where they appear to say
something that isn't really true. There is certainly no evidence Siuan
broke the First Oath.

[Mark Stokje]

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising

You're neglecting a key point. After Siuan is severed she learns that she
is free of the oaths and can lie again. This is all presented from Siuan's
POV.

Mark

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Mark Stokje

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising

You're neglecting a key point. After Siuan is severed she learns that she
is free of the oaths and can lie again. This is all presented from Siuan's
POV.

Siuan made her statement about there never having been a rebellion inside the
Tower BEFORE she was stilled!

[Loïc Joly]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Mark Stokje

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising

You're neglecting a key point. After Siuan is severed she learns that she
is free of the oaths and can lie again. This is all presented from Siuan's
POV.

Siuan made her statement about there never having been a rebellion inside the
Tower BEFORE she was stilled!

Yes, but if she realises that AFTER she is stilled, she can channel, it
means that BEFORE, from her own point of view, she could not.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Loïc Joly

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Mark Stokje

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising

You're neglecting a key point. After Siuan is severed she learns that she
is free of the oaths and can lie again. This is all presented from Siuan's
POV.

Siuan made her statement about there never having been a rebellion inside the
Tower BEFORE she was stilled!

Yes, but if she realises that AFTER she is stilled, she can channel, it
means that BEFORE, from her own point of view, she could not.

Are you accusing Siuan of lying to Egwene about the contents of the Tower's secret
histories?

[Paul Wilkins]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Mark Stokje

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising

You're neglecting a key point. After Siuan is severed she learns that she
is free of the oaths and can lie again. This is all presented from Siuan's
POV.

Siuan made her statement about there never having been a rebellion inside the
Tower BEFORE she was stilled!

That's right, and the key word is "in". Elaida is the first to have done
it while within the Tower. All of the other rebellions occured outside
of the tower, like the Salidar Aes Sedai.

Sure, it may be a fine distinction, but that's what Aes Sedai live by.

[Mark Stokje]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Mark Stokje
You're neglecting a key point. After Siuan is severed she learns that she
is free of the oaths and can lie again. This is all presented from Siuan's
POV.

Siuan made her statement about there never having been a rebellion inside the
Tower BEFORE she was stilled!

If she has a big scene after she was stilled, from her own POV, that she can
now lie, we can infer that she could not lie prior to the stilling.

Mark

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising

*snip evidence Suian lied*

These books have been out for a while, so we don't bother with
spoiler space any more.

Anyway, I'd go with the easy answer on this one. RJ screw-up.

Michelle
Flutist

[Steve Craig]

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising
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I believe I have caught Siuan Sanche telling an outright lie, at a time
when she was still bound by the Three Oaths. In tSR, Chapter 47, Elaida
springs her infamous coup. Elaida and her supporters walk into Siuan's office
and Shield her from the OP as Elaida calmly removes Siuan's stole and
informs her that she has been removed from the Amyrlin seat. Elaida then >binds Siuan with Air. On page 766 of the paperback tSR, Siuan angrily tells
Elaida that "There has never been a rebellion inside the Tower". However,
at the bottom of page 247 in Chapter 12 of ACOS, Egwene thinks to
herself that there have been six mutinies in the White Tower's history, hidden
away in the Tower's secret histories. The secret histories are accessible
only to the Amyrlin, Keeper, Sitters, and a few librarians. I believe that
Amyrlin Siuan would have had access to the secret histories and thus
would have known about the six mutinies. Therefore, I believe that Siuan lied
when she said that there had never been a rebellion in the Tower, at a time
when Siuan was still bound by the First Oath (she hadn't been Stilled yet).
Here are the sources of my belief that Amyrlin Siuan knew about the
On page 25, Amyrlin Elaida thinks about the ancient rebellions buried in the
secret records open only to Amyrlin, Keeper, and Sitters. If Amyrlin Elaida
knows about those rebellions, then so did Amyrlin Siuan. On pages 156, 212
and 246 are indications that Siuan was familiar with the Tower's secret
history. On page 156, Egwene muses to herself that Siuan had told her
secret details of some of the odd things that have happened in the Tower.
On page 212, in the last paragraph, Egwene comments that she doubts that
anyone has ever been raised Amyrlin without first being a full Aes
Sedai, and thinks to herself that that comment should have elicited a comment
from Siuan about the Tower's hidden records. At the top of page 246, Siuan
says that there is nothing in the secret records about Amyrlins demanding
oaths of fealty.

I notice some very glaring descripencies in your arguement.

First, and foremost, there is no reason, what-so-ever that Suian would
have know about the six minutes when she was Amyrlin. Eladia would've
know, however, since she was planning one and wished to stay within
tower law. Or she probably found out afterwords, when she became
Amyrlin and thought, "well, I just rebeled against the Amyrlin, I
wonder if this has happened before."

Second, all the times you mention that Suain knew various topics from
the secret records are long after she said these things. It is
possible, then, that she asid them, at the time thinking she was
telling to truth, but then later realized that she wasn't.

NOw that I re-read my post, I realize that someo f my
counter-arguements may be a little weka, but thee is a reasonable
doubt.

The other option is that it could've, simply, been a mis-step by RJ.
It doesn't seem to have much consequence. We know for a fact that
Suain is not a Dark Friend.

Steve Craig

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Steve Craig

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising
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I believe I have caught Siuan Sanche telling an outright lie, at a time
when she was still bound by the Three Oaths. In tSR, Chapter 47, Elaida
springs her infamous coup. Elaida and her supporters walk into Siuan's office
and Shield her from the OP as Elaida calmly removes Siuan's stole and
informs her that she has been removed from the Amyrlin seat. Elaida then >binds Siuan with Air. On page 766 of the paperback tSR, Siuan angrily tells
Elaida that "There has never been a rebellion inside the Tower". However,
at the bottom of page 247 in Chapter 12 of ACOS, Egwene thinks to
herself that there have been six mutinies in the White Tower's history, hidden
away in the Tower's secret histories. The secret histories are accessible
only to the Amyrlin, Keeper, Sitters, and a few librarians. I believe that
Amyrlin Siuan would have had access to the secret histories and thus
would have known about the six mutinies. Therefore, I believe that Siuan lied
when she said that there had never been a rebellion in the Tower, at a time
when Siuan was still bound by the First Oath (she hadn't been Stilled yet).
Here are the sources of my belief that Amyrlin Siuan knew about the
On page 25, Amyrlin Elaida thinks about the ancient rebellions buried in the
secret records open only to Amyrlin, Keeper, and Sitters. If Amyrlin Elaida
knows about those rebellions, then so did Amyrlin Siuan. On pages 156, 212
and 246 are indications that Siuan was familiar with the Tower's secret
history. On page 156, Egwene muses to herself that Siuan had told her
secret details of some of the odd things that have happened in the Tower.
On page 212, in the last paragraph, Egwene comments that she doubts that
anyone has ever been raised Amyrlin without first being a full Aes
Sedai, and thinks to herself that that comment should have elicited a comment
from Siuan about the Tower's hidden records. At the top of page 246, Siuan
says that there is nothing in the secret records about Amyrlins demanding
oaths of fealty.

I notice some very glaring descripencies in your arguement.
First, and foremost, there is no reason, what-so-ever that Suian would
have know about the six minutes when she was Amyrlin. Eladia would've
know, however, since she was planning one and wished to stay within
tower law. Or she probably found out afterwords, when she became
Amyrlin and thought, "well, I just rebeled against the Amyrlin, I
wonder if this has happened before."

Siuan was head of the Blue Ajah spy network before she became Amyrlin, then set up her own huge spy network. This indicates to me that she was very
interested in secrets and would have read the secret histories throughly.

[Steve Craig]

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for A Crown of
Swords (Hardback version) up to Chapter 12, and for the Shadow Rising

<snip>

Read the rest of the thread, its alread been pointed out that it was
an acknowledged mistake, and is now fixed.

One more thing,

Try not to use CAPS in your thread titles.... they are starting to
burn my eyes.

Steve

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Steve Craig
Try not to use CAPS in your thread titles.... they are starting to
burn my eyes.

Dude. It's Timothy Bruening. No point in arguing with him.

Jasper

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Tim Bruening <***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message news:<***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>...

Spoiler time has long since expired. Extraneous lines removed.

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below.
I believe I have caught Siuan Sanche telling an outright lie, at
a time when she was still bound by the Three Oaths. In tSR,
Chapter 47, Elaida springs her infamous coup. Elaida and her
supporters walk into Siuan's office and Shield her from the OP as
Elaida calmly removes Siuan's stole and informs her that she has
been removed from the Amyrlin seat. Elaida then binds Siuan with
Air. On page 766 of the paperback tSR, Siuan angrily tells
Elaida that "There has never been a rebellion inside the Tower".
However, at the bottom of page 247 in Chapter 12 of ACOS, Egwene
thinks to herself that there have been six mutinies in the White
Tower's history, hidden away in the Tower's secret histories.
The secret histories are accessible only to the Amyrlin, Keeper,
Sitters, and a few librarians. I believe that Amyrlin Siuan would
have had access to the secret histories and thus would have known
about the six mutinies. Therefore, I believe that Siuan lied
when she said that there had never been a rebellion in the Tower,
at a time when Siuan was still bound by the First Oath (she hadn't
been Stilled yet).

As can be seen from the following:

" Suian had blanched the first time she'd read about those rebellions
-- or mutinies really, since thay had all occured during an Amyrlin's
visits outside of Tar Valon. "

[TSR, Prologue, _Of Hidden Things_, pg 43]

Post by Tim Bruening
Here are the sources of my belief that Amyrlin Siuan knew about the
On page 25, Amyrlin Elaida thinks about the ancient rebellions buried in
the secret records open only to Amyrlin, Keeper, and Sitters. If Amyrlin
Elaida knows about those rebellions, then so did Amyrlin Siuan.

Not necessarily true. 'Available to' and 'having read' are different.

Post by Tim Bruening
On pages 156, 212 and 246 are indications that Siuan was familiar with
the Tower's secret history. On page 156, Egwene muses to herself that
Siuan had told her secret details of some of the odd things that have
happened in the Tower.

Yup. All about the tickle fights between the Blue and Red Ajahs, and
that the Grey Ajah loves practical jokes -- washing a Accepted's shift
with itch-oak is a favourite.

Post by Tim Bruening
On page 212, in the last paragraph, Egwene comments that she doubts that
anyone has ever been raised Amyrlin without first being a full Aes
Sedai, and thinks to herself that that comment should have elicited a
comment from Siuan about the Tower's hidden records.

Suian had forgotten about that one.

Post by Tim Bruening
At the top of page 246, Siuan says that there is nothing in the secret
records about Amyrlins demanding oaths of fealty.

She hadn't made it to Volume 37 yet. It's right there in Chapter 12:
"Oaths of Fealty - When, Where, and How Strong"

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Duncan J Macdonald
Spoiler time has long since expired. Extraneous lines removed.

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below.
I believe I have caught Siuan Sanche telling an outright lie, at
a time when she was still bound by the Three Oaths. In tSR,
Chapter 47, Elaida springs her infamous coup. Elaida and her
supporters walk into Siuan's office and Shield her from the OP as
Elaida calmly removes Siuan's stole and informs her that she has
been removed from the Amyrlin seat. Elaida then binds Siuan with
Air. On page 766 of the paperback tSR, Siuan angrily tells
Elaida that "There has never been a rebellion inside the Tower".
However, at the bottom of page 247 in Chapter 12 of ACOS, Egwene
thinks to herself that there have been six mutinies in the White
Tower's history, hidden away in the Tower's secret histories.
The secret histories are accessible only to the Amyrlin, Keeper,
Sitters, and a few librarians. I believe that Amyrlin Siuan would
have had access to the secret histories and thus would have known
about the six mutinies. Therefore, I believe that Siuan lied
when she said that there had never been a rebellion in the Tower,
at a time when Siuan was still bound by the First Oath (she hadn't
been Stilled yet).

" Suian had blanched the first time she'd read about those rebellions
-- or mutinies really, since thay had all occured during an Amyrlin's
visits outside of Tar Valon. "
[TSR, Prologue, _Of Hidden Things_, pg 43]

I don't see the above quote or chapter in my copy of The Shadow Rising.

[Mitchell Swan]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Duncan J Macdonald
" Suian had blanched the first time she'd read about those rebellions
-- or mutinies really, since thay had all occured during an Amyrlin's
visits outside of Tar Valon. "
[TSR, Prologue, _Of Hidden Things_, pg 43]

I don't see the above quote or chapter in my copy of The Shadow Rising.

I can't find that either. Not in my texts or on ideal seek.

Heck, TSR doesn't even have a Prologue.

Mind re-checking that Duncan?

Or are you being sarcastic and I'm being impaired?

[Duncan J Macdonald]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 06:49:07 -0600, Mitchell Swan said...

Post by Mitchell Swan

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Duncan J Macdonald
" Suian had blanched the first time she'd read about those rebellions
-- or mutinies really, since thay had all occured during an Amyrlin's
visits outside of Tar Valon. "
[TSR, Prologue, _Of Hidden Things_, pg 43]

I don't see the above quote or chapter in my copy of The Shadow Rising.

I can't find that either. Not in my texts or on ideal seek.
Heck, TSR doesn't even have a Prologue.
Mind re-checking that Duncan?
Or are you being sarcastic and I'm being impaired?

Yes and yes.

(You can prove _anything_ with a quote from that prologue)

[Duncan J Macdonald]

<snip>

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Duncan J Macdonald
" Suian had blanched the first time she'd read about those rebellions
-- or mutinies really, since thay had all occured during an Amyrlin's
visits outside of Tar Valon. "
[TSR, Prologue, _Of Hidden Things_, pg 43]

I don't see the above quote or chapter in my copy of The Shadow Rising.

Do you have the 43rd printing?

[jamie]

Post by Tim Bruening
Siuan with Air. On page 766 of the paperback tSR, Siuan angrily tells
Elaida that "There has never been a rebellion inside the Tower".
However,
at the bottom of page 247 in Chapter 12 of ACOS, Egwene thinks to
herself that there have been six mutinies in the White Tower's history,
hidden away in the Tower's secret histories. The secret histories are
accessible only to the Amyrlin, Keeper, Sitters, and a few librarians.
I believe that Amyrlin Siuan would have had access to the secret
histories and thus would have known about the six mutinies. Therefore,
I believe that Siuan lied

I don't think there is any reference to any of those six mutinies
actually happening "inside the Tower." More likely, the rebels chose
another location, just like those in Salidar.

Tim, would you please shorten your line lengths a bit? Quoting wrapped
the last word of almost every line. I readjusted the quote so this post
would be easier on the eyes.

[Tim Bruening]

AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for The Great
Hunt (Paperback) and The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time.
Below is a minor incident of Amyrlin Siuan telling a lie:

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Page 58 of the paperback tGH: Amyrlin Siuan says to Moiraine "I am the
fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat from the Blue". However, on
page 216 of The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time (written by
the great Robert Jordan himself) is a list of Amyrlins from FY 939 to
the present (NE 1000). According to that list, Siuan was only the
second Blue Amyrlin in a row, although she was the 4th Amyrlin raised
from the Blue in the past 5 Amyrlins.

[Leif Cleveland]

Interesting. You place spoilers in the topic title, then warn for them in
the message.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Leif Cleveland
Interesting. You place spoilers in the topic title, then warn for them in
the message.

My title doesn't say what lie the Amyrlin told.

[Leif Cleveland]

Irrelevant.

[Michael Hoye]

Post by Leif Cleveland
Irrelevant.

Leif, you're going to need to provide some context to your arguments.
Those of us who aren't using threaded newsreaders would like to know
what it is that's irrelevant.

It might help to also explain _why_ it's irrelevant, in the spirit
of discussion, but that first point is key.

[Leif Cleveland]

Easily done, then.

Tim: "My title doesn't say what lie the Amyrlin told."

The topic is "Amyrlin Seat Breaks First Oath!". That's a spoiler, regardless
of whether or not you elaborate on what lie has been told. It's been stated
in the past what the oaths are, so placing a spoiler like that in the topic,
then warning for them in the message seemed rather backwards.

It's like saying "____ kills ____" and attempting to justify it's presence
in the topic title by claiming that you didn't state in what manner the
person was killed. You're still giving away a point of the story, regardless
of how much detail you go into.

Not like it matters, anyway, since the claims of the Amyrlin Seat and
Moiraine breaking the oaths are wrong. In the end, that makes my observation
useless - which is why I didn't explain much of anything, since it's really
not that big of a deal at all.

I'm not flaming him or insulting anyone. I simply pointed that out, because
it struck me as strange.

[Mike Hoye]

Post by Leif Cleveland
Easily done, then.

[...]

Post by Leif Cleveland
I'm not flaming him or insulting anyone.

I know, but I can't figure out who you're responding to. You need to
include that bit above your post, as I've done here.

[Leif Cleveland]

Post by Mike Hoye
I know, but I can't figure out who you're responding to. You need to

include that bit above your post, as I've done here.

Post by Mike Hoye
--
Mike Hoye

- My apologies. I'm too used to either quoting only what has been said or
not doing it at all.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Leif Cleveland
Irrelevant.

What's irrelevant?

[Leif Cleveland]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Leif Cleveland
Irrelevant.

What's irrelevant?

"My title doesn't say what lie the Amyrlin told."

- ^ That is irrelevant. You are still giving away a plot detail(the AS
lying), regardless of whether or not you elaborate on it.

[David Chapman]

Post by Leif Cleveland

Post by Tim Bruening
What's irrelevant?

"My title doesn't say what lie the Amyrlin told."
- ^ That is irrelevant. You are still giving away a plot detail(the AS
lying), regardless of whether or not you elaborate on it.

Was he really?

--
Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't
live anywhere else.

[odigity]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Leif Cleveland

Post by Tim Bruening
What's irrelevant?

"My title doesn't say what lie the Amyrlin told."
- ^ That is irrelevant. You are still giving away a plot detail(the AS
lying), regardless of whether or not you elaborate on it.

Was he really?

SPOILER! You bastard...



BTW: So which one is it?

[Scott Clark]

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for The Great
Hunt (Paperback) and The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time.
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Page 58 of the paperback tGH: Amyrlin Siuan says to Moiraine "I am the
fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat from the Blue". However, on
page 216 of The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time (written by
the great Robert Jordan himself) is a list of Amyrlins from FY 939 to
the present (NE 1000). According to that list, Siuan was only the
second Blue Amyrlin in a row, although she was the 4th Amyrlin raised
from the Blue in the past 5 Amyrlins.

Acknowledged by Jordan as an error. It's covered in the FAQ.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Scott Clark

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for The Great
Hunt (Paperback) and The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time.
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Page 58 of the paperback tGH: Amyrlin Siuan says to Moiraine "I am the
fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat from the Blue". However, on
page 216 of The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time (written by
the great Robert Jordan himself) is a list of Amyrlins from FY 939 to
the present (NE 1000). According to that list, Siuan was only the
second Blue Amyrlin in a row, although she was the 4th Amyrlin raised
from the Blue in the past 5 Amyrlins.

Acknowledged by Jordan as an error. It's covered in the FAQ.

Which is the error, Siuan's statement or The World of Robert Jordan's The
Wheel Of Time list?

[Paul Wilkins]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Scott Clark

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for The Great
Hunt (Paperback) and The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time.
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Page 58 of the paperback tGH: Amyrlin Siuan says to Moiraine "I am the
fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat from the Blue". However, on
page 216 of The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time (written by
the great Robert Jordan himself) is a list of Amyrlins from FY 939 to
the present (NE 1000). According to that list, Siuan was only the
second Blue Amyrlin in a row, although she was the 4th Amyrlin raised
from the Blue in the past 5 Amyrlins.

Acknowledged by Jordan as an error. It's covered in the FAQ.

Which is the error, Siuan's statement or The World of Robert Jordan's The
Wheel Of Time list?

Siuan's original statement is the error. In the corrected book Siuan says
that four of five Amyrlins in a row were blue.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below.

Spoiler time is far over. Unnecessary space deleted.

Post by Tim Bruening
Page 58 of the paperback tGH: Amyrlin Siuan says to Moiraine "I am the
fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat from the Blue". However, on
page 216 of The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time (written by
the great Robert Jordan himself) is a list of Amyrlins from FY 939 to
the present (NE 1000).

Umm, Jordan didn't write BBoBA.

Post by Tim Bruening
According to that list, Siuan was only the
second Blue Amyrlin in a row, although she was the 4th Amyrlin raised
from the Blue in the past 5 Amyrlins.

This seeming discrepancy is an error, since corrected in later
printings. From _The Encyclopaedia WOT_:

"TGH,Ch4, Summoned, hc 49 pb 58
4th hc 4th pb
Siuan says that, "I am the fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat
from the Blue." Not true, as Sierin Vayu was Gray.
10th hc 8th pb
In the corrected versions Siuan says, "Four of the last five women
raised to Amyrlin have come from the Blue."

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Duncan J Macdonald

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below.

Spoiler time is far over. Unnecessary space deleted.

Post by Tim Bruening
Page 58 of the paperback tGH: Amyrlin Siuan says to Moiraine "I am the
fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat from the Blue". However, on
page 216 of The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time (written by
the great Robert Jordan himself) is a list of Amyrlins from FY 939 to
the present (NE 1000).

Umm, Jordan didn't write BBoBA.

Why is he listed as an author?

Wouldn't he still have read the galley proof before approving its publication?

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Duncan J Macdonald

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below.

Spoiler time is far over. Unnecessary space deleted.

Post by Tim Bruening
Page 58 of the paperback tGH: Amyrlin Siuan says to Moiraine "I am the
fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat from the Blue". However, on
page 216 of The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time (written by
the great Robert Jordan himself) is a list of Amyrlins from FY 939 to
the present (NE 1000).

Umm, Jordan didn't write BBoBA.

Why is he listed as an author?

Because he helped, I assume.

Post by Tim Bruening
Wouldn't he still have read the galley proof before approving its publication?

Likely. Doesn't mean that it's correct.

You might notice that there are those who hold BBoBA as canon, and those who don't.

[Mark Loy]

Post by Duncan J Macdonald

Post by Tim Bruening
Wouldn't he still have read the galley proof before approving its publication?

Likely. Doesn't mean that it's correct.
You might notice that there are those who hold BBoBA as canon, and those who don't.

Loathe that I am to write "on-topic" I've got to point out that as of yet
there aren't any canons in the Wheel of Time.

Oh and...there's nary a mention of Ginkgo Biloba supplements, either.

Leigh, maybe you could faq these to avoid this kind of spurious discussion
in the future.





ML

[Jennifer Winters]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Duncan J Macdonald

Post by Tim Bruening
Wouldn't he still have read the galley proof before approving its

publication?

Post by Duncan J Macdonald
Likely. Doesn't mean that it's correct.
You might notice that there are those who hold BBoBA as canon, and those

who don't.
Loathe that I am to write "on-topic" I've got to point out that as of yet
there aren't any canons in the Wheel of Time.

Or cannons, either.

(Hurry up, Matt!)

[Duncan J Macdonald]

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:08:31 GMT, Jennifer Winters said...
<snip>

Post by Jennifer Winters

Post by Mark Loy
Loathe that I am to write "on-topic" I've got to point out that as of yet
there aren't any canons in the Wheel of Time.

Loathe, you?

Maybe no canons, but there are catechisms.

Post by Jennifer Winters
Or cannons, either.
(Hurry up, Matt!)

Who's Matt?

[NightBaron]

Post by Tim Bruening
AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH! Details below. Spoilers for The Great
Hunt (Paperback) and The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time.
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Page 58 of the paperback tGH: Amyrlin Siuan says to Moiraine "I am the
fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat from the Blue". However, on
page 216 of The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time (written by
the great Robert Jordan himself) is a list of Amyrlins from FY 939 to
the present (NE 1000). According to that list, Siuan was only the
second Blue Amyrlin in a row, although she was the 4th Amyrlin raised
from the Blue in the past 5 Amyrlins.

In the recent revised version of tGH, Jordan corrected that mistake.

[Tim Bruening]

Spoilers for The Great Hunt (paperback) and New Spring (Hardback):

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Page 129 of tGH: Moiraine tells Rand that the then Amyrlin had set her
and Siuan to searching for the Dragon Reborn. However, in New Spring,
Amyrlin Tamra did not tell Moiraine and Siuan to search for the Dragon
Reborn. She did send out all the Accepteds to collect the names of
women who had given birth recently, and later sent out several AS to
search for the baby Dragon. After Tamra died, Moiraine set out on her
own to find the DR, and Siuan later followed her. I thus charge
Moiraine with lying to Rand.

[Karsten]

Post by Tim Bruening
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Page 129 of tGH: Moiraine tells Rand that the then Amyrlin had set her
and Siuan to searching for the Dragon Reborn. However, in New Spring,
Amyrlin Tamra did not tell Moiraine and Siuan to search for the Dragon
Reborn. She did send out all the Accepteds to collect the names of
women who had given birth recently, and later sent out several AS to
search for the baby Dragon. After Tamra died, Moiraine set out on her
own to find the DR, and Siuan later followed her. I thus charge
Moiraine with lying to Rand.

hrmn...isn't that a question of interpretation ?? if she is sendt out in
search for women who had given birth recently, she is indirectly sendt out
to find the dragon reborn. That should be a "workaround" of the 1. oath.

Karsten

[Scott Clark]

Post by Tim Bruening
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Page 129 of tGH: Moiraine tells Rand that the then Amyrlin had set her
and Siuan to searching for the Dragon Reborn. However, in New Spring,
Amyrlin Tamra did not tell Moiraine and Siuan to search for the Dragon
Reborn. She did send out all the Accepteds to collect the names of
women who had given birth recently, and later sent out several AS to
search for the baby Dragon. After Tamra died, Moiraine set out on her
own to find the DR, and Siuan later followed her. I thus charge
Moiraine with lying to Rand.

She could be classifying being sent to collect names as part of the
search. She could be thinking that Tamra's actions led to them choosing
to go search, and classifying that as being 'sent.' No more than usual
AS doublespeak. Charges dismissed.

[Steve Craig]

Post by Tim Bruening
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Page 129 of tGH: Moiraine tells Rand that the then Amyrlin had set her
and Siuan to searching for the Dragon Reborn. However, in New Spring,
Amyrlin Tamra did not tell Moiraine and Siuan to search for the Dragon
Reborn. She did send out all the Accepteds to collect the names of
women who had given birth recently, and later sent out several AS to
search for the baby Dragon. After Tamra died, Moiraine set out on her
own to find the DR, and Siuan later followed her. I thus charge
Moiraine with lying to Rand.

Symantics. One of the major themes of AS characters is that the first
oath is, contrary to intuition, pertty loose. Moirane knows she isn't
lying when she tells Rand that she was sent in search of the Dragon.

Its pretty weak.

Steve Craig