Another way to kill a Gholam?? [KoD Spoilers]

[Colin M.]

Spoilers
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In KoD we learn why the forsaken don't just gateway a whole gag load of
trollocs and fades right into Rand's bedroom - traveling through a
gateway kills Shadowspawn!! (as an aside, despite everything else, RJ
does have an impressive ability to work his way around plot problems).
So the question is: what would happen if a 'deathgate' was used on a
gholam?

As far as i read 'deathgates' were just moving gateways that snapped
open and shut, and otherwise were no different than regular gateways

Also, with the moving gateway it is no longer necessary to push the
gholam through, which would be presumable difficult given the thing's
strenght. Also unnecessary to have the other end of the gateway in
space or over the ocean, or some other hostile locale.

Maybe it kills the gholam? (the thing is shadowspawn after all)
Maybe the gateway is undone? (the normal effect of weaves that come in
contact with a gholam)
Maybe if somebody asked RJ, he'd reply "RAFO"?

And if somebody already covered this, my appologies.

Colin M.

[Ash]

Post by Colin M.
Spoilers
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--
In KoD we learn why the forsaken don't just gateway a whole gag load of
trollocs and fades right into Rand's bedroom - traveling through a
gateway kills Shadowspawn!! (as an aside, despite everything else, RJ
does have an impressive ability to work his way around plot problems).
So the question is: what would happen if a 'deathgate' was used on a
gholam?
As far as i read 'deathgates' were just moving gateways that snapped
open and shut, and otherwise were no different than regular gateways
Also, with the moving gateway it is no longer necessary to push the
gholam through, which would be presumable difficult given the thing's
strenght. Also unnecessary to have the other end of the gateway in
space or over the ocean, or some other hostile locale.
Maybe it kills the gholam? (the thing is shadowspawn after all)
Maybe the gateway is undone? (the normal effect of weaves that come in
contact with a gholam)
Maybe if somebody asked RJ, he'd reply "RAFO"?
And if somebody already covered this, my appologies.

He didn't mention Gholam, but at a signing, he said Shadowspan can't
survive the passage because they are artificial constructs. The Nym, are
similalry unable to pass through a gateway

[Colin M.]

But the pertanent question is whether the absorbtion effect takes apart
the gateway, thus preventing the Gholam from passing through. I think
that if the Gholam goes through the gateway it is toast because it is
without a doubt an artificial construct. From the battle that Elyane &
Co. have with the Seachan at the beginning of PoD I gathered that the
weave of the gateway covered the whole surface area of the openning:
therefore, when the Gholam touches it, it should come apart because
some of the weaves will be absorbed.

However, Mat, wearing his foxhead, goes through at least one gateway in
LoC successfully. So, as long as the foxhead and the Gholam are
substantially similar in effect, the Gholam should be able to pass
through without disrupting the weave. Therefore, another way to kill a
Gholam is with a deathgate. (and it is a damn good way IMO, because you
can keep you distance from the f-ing thing)

Colin M.

[k***@hotmail.com]

The foxhead only works if it is touching Mats skin, if not, then it
does not work. The Gholam does not have this problem.

Mike

[Eric Means]

Post by k***@hotmail.com
The foxhead only works if it is touching Mats skin, if not, then it
does not work. The Gholam does not have this problem.

But it seems that Mat generally *does* have the medallion touching his
skin; RJ never mentions that Mat specifically removes the medallion
before Traveling, so it's unlikely that he has to do so.

It seems that the Gateway is a side effect of the channeling, and not
the weave itself; thus the gholam can probably go through a gateway
(whether it survives the trip or not).

The pertinent point is that the medallion/gholam don't necessarily
interrupt *any weave they touch* -- they interrupt weaves aimed
directly at the wearer/gholam. Gateway weaves aren't aimed at the
wearer/gholam and thus may not be interrupted. Of course, we don't
know for sure, and may never be told explicitly.

[Karan Juneja]

Post by Eric Means

Post by k***@hotmail.com
The foxhead only works if it is touching Mats skin, if not, then it
does not work. The Gholam does not have this problem.

But it seems that Mat generally *does* have the medallion touching his
skin; RJ never mentions that Mat specifically removes the medallion
before Traveling, so it's unlikely that he has to do so.
It seems that the Gateway is a side effect of the channeling, and not
the weave itself; thus the gholam can probably go through a gateway
(whether it survives the trip or not).

There's mention made of gateways essentially being a bit of manipulation
of the pattern - making one part of it linked to another, because of the
weave (see BBoBA). Since shadowspawn are artificial, they don't have
threads in the pattern therefore they can't jump around in it. That's
what I get from RJ's pithy explination.

Post by Eric Means
The pertinent point is that the medallion/gholam don't necessarily
interrupt *any weave they touch* -- they interrupt weaves aimed
directly at the wearer/gholam. Gateway weaves aren't aimed at the
wearer/gholam and thus may not be interrupted. Of course, we don't
know for sure, and may never be told explicitly.

The medallion appears to interrupt weaves it touches, iirc. Someone want
to quote one way or the other?

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Ash

Post by Colin M.
Spoilers
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
--
In KoD we learn why the forsaken don't just gateway a whole gag load of
trollocs and fades right into Rand's bedroom - traveling through a
gateway kills Shadowspawn!! (as an aside, despite everything else, RJ
does have an impressive ability to work his way around plot problems).
So the question is: what would happen if a 'deathgate' was used on a
gholam?
As far as i read 'deathgates' were just moving gateways that snapped
open and shut, and otherwise were no different than regular gateways
Also, with the moving gateway it is no longer necessary to push the
gholam through, which would be presumable difficult given the thing's
strenght. Also unnecessary to have the other end of the gateway in
space or over the ocean, or some other hostile locale.
Maybe it kills the gholam? (the thing is shadowspawn after all)
Maybe the gateway is undone? (the normal effect of weaves that come in
contact with a gholam)
Maybe if somebody asked RJ, he'd reply "RAFO"?
And if somebody already covered this, my appologies.

He didn't mention Gholam, but at a signing, he said Shadowspan can't
survive the passage because they are artificial constructs. The Nym, are
similalry unable to pass through a gateway

Chora trees (like the tree at Rhuidean) are also artifical. Does that mean
that they can't survive a Gateway either?

[Petter Strandmark]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Erik Wikström]

Post by Petter Strandmark

Post by Colin M.
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Also, with the moving gateway it is no longer necessary to push the
gholam through, which would be presumable difficult given the thing's
strenght. Also unnecessary to have the other end of the gateway in
space or over the ocean, or some other hostile locale.

Wouldn't Deathgates be even better if they ended in space, rather than
just end on earth? The pressure difference would suck even more
Trollocs through. I think we have seen wind passing through a GW, but I
don't have a quote.
Another quite powerful weapon (that would perhaps require an angreal)
would be to open a 'Firegate' (directed away from you) into the middle
of the sun. I haven't done any calculations, but it is possible that
this weapon might be a little too powerful. Making the Firegates end in
the middle of the earth might be a better idea. Afterwards you could
put out the fire with a Watergate to the bottom of the ocean.

Not really my area of expertise but isn't the preassure at the center of
the earth (and even more so the sun) quite high? I think you'd create a
beam of lava that might be dangerous to your allies when splashing of
the first target. The space-gate on the other hand could be quite handy.

Erik Wikström

[Christer Jacobsson]

Post by Erik Wikström

Post by Petter Strandmark

Post by Colin M.
Spoilers
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Also, with the moving gateway it is no longer necessary to push the
gholam through, which would be presumable difficult given the thing's
strenght. Also unnecessary to have the other end of the gateway in
space or over the ocean, or some other hostile locale.

Wouldn't Deathgates be even better if they ended in space, rather than
just end on earth? The pressure difference would suck even more
Trollocs through. I think we have seen wind passing through a GW, but I
don't have a quote.
Another quite powerful weapon (that would perhaps require an angreal)
would be to open a 'Firegate' (directed away from you) into the middle
of the sun. I haven't done any calculations, but it is possible that
this weapon might be a little too powerful. Making the Firegates end in
the middle of the earth might be a better idea. Afterwards you could
put out the fire with a Watergate to the bottom of the ocean.

Not really my area of expertise but isn't the preassure at the center of
the earth (and even more so the sun) quite high?

I can't find a straight answer to the density at the centre of the
Earth but as the mean density is 5.5gm/cm**3 and the central core is
solid it can't be much higher than say 10gm/cm**3 as the core is
mostly iron. Pressure would be between 100,000 and 1,000,000 bars and
temp is about 6k Kelvin.

The centre of the Sun is another kettle of fish altogether. The Sun is
gaseous through and through and because of this the plasma can be
squashed more effectively. Density at the center of the Sun is
10**5gm/cm**3, temp is 15M Kelvin and pressure a coupla of million
bars. Just that sort of nice and warm environment you have at the
center of the Secondary in a two-stager nuclear bomb (AKA H-bomb).

So it would be best to open the GW in the middle of the Sun: a pinhole
-sized one would suffice. When that Sun-hot plasma roars out onto the
battlefield it will fry the Trollocks and Myrdraal to a nice and fine
crisp, just ready to serve for lunch :-)




I think you'd create a

Post by Erik Wikström
beam of lava that might be dangerous to your allies when splashing of
the first target. The space-gate on the other hand could be quite handy.

Yeah. that sort of GW would give a whole new twist to the terms
'evacuation' and 'vacuum cleaning / Hoovering'. (An old brand of
vacuum cleaner was Hoover, not related to the infamous J. Edgar Hoover)

Rand: How did the battle go?
Mat: We took our cleaning patrol to the site and vacuumed out the
opposition. The site is nice and clean now, no Bugs left.

Sorry, could not resist it. :-)

[pearlgtr]

On 6 Nov 2005 11:40:28 -0800, "Petter Strandmark"

Post by Petter Strandmark
Wouldn't Deathgates be even better if they ended in space, rather than
just end on earth? The pressure difference would suck even more
Trollocs through. I think we have seen wind passing through a GW, but I
don't have a quote.
Another quite powerful weapon (that would perhaps require an angreal)
would be to open a 'Firegate' (directed away from you) into the middle
of the sun. I haven't done any calculations, but it is possible that
this weapon might be a little too powerful. Making the Firegates end in
the middle of the earth might be a better idea. Afterwards you could
put out the fire with a Watergate to the bottom of the ocean.

doesn't the channeler have to have some familiarity with the
destination? that would present a problem until the arrival of space
travel.

[r***@aol.com]

Post by pearlgtr
On 6 Nov 2005 11:40:28 -0800, "Petter Strandmark"

Post by Petter Strandmark
Wouldn't Deathgates be even better if they ended in space, rather than
just end on earth? The pressure difference would suck even more
Trollocs through. I think we have seen wind passing through a GW, but I
don't have a quote.
Another quite powerful weapon (that would perhaps require an angreal)
would be to open a 'Firegate' (directed away from you) into the middle
of the sun. I haven't done any calculations, but it is possible that
this weapon might be a little too powerful. Making the Firegates end in
the middle of the earth might be a better idea. Afterwards you could
put out the fire with a Watergate to the bottom of the ocean.

doesn't the channeler have to have some familiarity with the
destination? that would present a problem until the arrival of space
travel.

This sort of thing has been discussed before. Although one could argue
that familiarity with the Sun is rather automatic ("Familiarity? It's
Twelve noon: I'm staring right at it!"), the fact of the matter is, the
Technology level in Randland is still roughly medieval. Sure, they're
well on their way to Renaissance or even Industrial Revolution (I'm
thinking of the whole "Steam Power" thing here), but we have no solid
evidence that anyone's been interested enough in Astronomy yet to even
point a Looking Glass up at the night sky, Galileo-style. People in
Randland don't really know that Outer Space is a vacuum, or that the
Sun is a constantly-raging nuclear inferno, and even if they can deduce
from volcanoes that the Earth is filled with a lot of lava, none of
them have ever been down there to check.

Hence, sorry, no dice.

Alternate Loony Theory: maybe the Balefire weave already IS some sort
of mini-gateway to the Sun! After all, have you ever seen what happens
to people who get hit with only a "pencil-thin" ray of pure Fusionary
Plasma? No, you haven't, and frankly speaking, anyone at ground zero of
a Thermonuclear detonation doesn't exactly leave a body either.
Furthermore, the description of the "after-image" effect of someone
who's been hit by Balefire seems rather reminiscent of the feeling you
get after staring at the sun for too long.

[Yaser Zhian]

Actually, there has been at least three references to outer space
in the books. First is at the end of the DR, when Rand is chasing
Ishamael and he is making all sorts of obstacles for Rand. In one
instance, Rand finds himself with no air around him to breathe.
Second is in the SR, where Nynaeve and Moghedien are dueling
and Moghedien is trying to distract Nynaeve. She starts talking
about what they did in the AoL. Nynaeve only hears a part of it,
but it's about traveling to other planets (corrections?)
Third is in FoH, where master Kin Tovere (the lens maker) talks
about bigger and better looking glasses to look at the stars.

Anybody can think of anything more serious?
-yzt

[Petter Strandmark]

Post by pearlgtr
doesn't the channeler have to have some familiarity with the
destination? that would present a problem until the arrival of space
travel.

The channeler only has to be familiar with the starting point. Avi
Travelling to Seanchan is one example.

[c***@gmail.com]

Why do the Deathgates have to be the same weave as Travelling?
Couldn't it be the Skimming weave? That doesn't require you to know
your starting location, so Deathgates could be made whenever you want,
and we know that that the "place" you Skim through is like a void. A
Deathgate could lead there, but without a handy platform.

Or does it specifically say the Deathgate is like Travelling in KoD?
I've let someone borrow my copy...

[Petter Strandmark]

Post by c***@gmail.com
Why do the Deathgates have to be the same weave as Travelling?
Couldn't it be the Skimming weave?

No, because then the Trollocs would end up in the Big Black Void, not
in random locations around the world.

Post by c***@gmail.com
Or does it specifically say the Deathgate is like Travelling in KoD?

Yes, the weave is (IIRC) describes as the Travelling weave with a small
modification.

[dames]

Post by Petter Strandmark

Post by c***@gmail.com
Why do the Deathgates have to be the same weave as Travelling?
Couldn't it be the Skimming weave?

No, because then the Trollocs would end up in the Big Black Void, not
in random locations around the world.

ummm... who cares if they go to the "Big Black Void"?
i mean they just fall and fall and fall and fall and fall and etc.
Skimming is a pretty good idea i think.

[Blaise D West]

Post by dames

Post by Petter Strandmark

Post by c***@gmail.com
Why do the Deathgates have to be the same weave as Travelling?
Couldn't it be the Skimming weave?

No, because then the Trollocs would end up in the Big Black Void, not
in random locations around the world.

ummm... who cares if they go to the "Big Black Void"?
i mean they just fall and fall and fall and fall and fall and etc.
Skimming is a pretty good idea i think.

First, it doesn't matter. they die going through the gateway either way.
Second, text states
that the bodies are scattered.
blaise

[Helen_Joan]

Post by Karan Juneja

Post by Eric Means

Post by k***@hotmail.com
The foxhead only works if it is touching Mats skin, if not, then it
does not work. The Gholam does not have this problem.

But it seems that Mat generally *does* have the medallion touching his
skin; RJ never mentions that Mat specifically removes the medallion
before Traveling, so it's unlikely that he has to do so.
It seems that the Gateway is a side effect of the channeling, and not
the weave itself; thus the gholam can probably go through a gateway
(whether it survives the trip or not).

There's mention made of gateways essentially being a bit of manipulation
of the pattern - making one part of it linked to another, because of the
weave (see BBoBA). Since shadowspawn are artificial, they don't have
threads in the pattern therefore they can't jump around in it. That's
what I get from RJ's pithy explination.

Just thought of something. If shadowspawn don't have threads in the
pattern, how can "Shadow Brothers" actions be reversed with balefire
(see the slobbering on Mat in the Waste)?

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by Helen_Joan
Just thought of something. If shadowspawn don't have threads in the
pattern, how can "Shadow Brothers" actions be reversed with balefire
(see the slobbering on Mat in the Waste)?

Matt's action (getting slobbered on) was reversed by balefire, not that
of shadowspawn.

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by Helen_Joan
Just thought of something. If shadowspawn don't have threads in the
pattern, how can "Shadow Brothers" actions be reversed with balefire
(see the slobbering on Mat in the Waste)?

Matt's action (getting slobbered on) was reversed by balefire, not that
of shadowspawn.

Disregard- Matt wasn't balefired (duh), so his actions couldn't have
been erased (never post with insufficient caffiene).

[Yaser Zhian]

Maybe the edges of a Gateway are the result of the weaves
(or the weaves themselves) but the middle (the area, the gate
itself) is not.
I say this because I don't remember any of the characters
feeling anything special when they pass through a Gateway
(a la what they feel when they enter a stedding.)
If this is the case, then one probably cannot cut down a
Gholam using the edge of a Gateway, since that may disolve
the weaves, but you can use a Gateway in one of the following
(or numerous others suggested in the FAQ or here) to kill
a Gholam:
(Minor spoilers ahead)

1) Just send it through a Gateway (or if it is unwilling) send a
Deathgate at him. In KoD, and not before time if you ask me,
we learn that Shadowspawn die if they go through a Gateway.
(As a side note, I think this includes all kinds of Gateways.
Skimming, Traveling, going into T'A'R in flesh, etc.)

2) If the above doesn't work for any reason, open a Gateway
to somewhere Far Far Away, and when the Gholam is passing
through, let go of the weave. The Gholam will end up with parts
of its body 100 leagues apart, which I think is a tad more than
even a Gholam can stretch.

3) The first two were not my idea, but I've not seen this one
mentioned before. Surround the Gholam with Gateways.
You'll need at least 4 (for a tetrahedron) to do so, and must
be very careful of the seems (it can squeeze out, remember?)

-yzt

[J***@exeter.ac.uk]

I don't remember exactly, but how did the trollocs and Myydraal get
into the Stone of Tear in TDR? I'm not sure if the book states it (I'm
at work, books at home) but surely the people would've made some noise
about them running through the streets of Tear?

Doesn't this kinda go against the 'shadow-spawn can't go through
gateways' theory? Or can someone remind me how they got there?

[Petter Strandmark]

Post by J***@exeter.ac.uk
I don't remember exactly, but how did the trollocs and Myydraal get
into the Stone of Tear in TDR? I'm not sure if the book states it (I'm
at work, books at home) but surely the people would've made some noise
about them running through the streets of Tear?
Doesn't this kinda go against the 'shadow-spawn can't go through
gateways' theory? Or can someone remind me how they got there?

They come with boats and wagons (two different factions) IRRC.

[J***@exeter.ac.uk]

Darn, and there was me thinking I was being clever! :-) I've just read
the passage in TSR, Lanfear's lot of Trollocs seem to have come in the
wagons (there's less of them) and the others came on the barges... oh
well, I'll have to try and spot some other mistakes instead!

James

[Davian]

Post by J***@exeter.ac.uk
Darn, and there was me thinking I was being clever! :-) I've just read
the passage in TSR, Lanfear's lot of Trollocs seem to have come in the
wagons (there's less of them) and the others came on the barges... oh
well, I'll have to try and spot some other mistakes instead!

Actually, Lanfear didn't bring any Trollocs with her to the Stone of Tear.
She tried to take credit for the ones protecting Rand, but it was revealed in
book 6 that they were actually sent by Semirhage, on the Dark One's orders.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Colin M.
Spoilers
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
--
In KoD we learn why the forsaken don't just gateway a whole gag load of
trollocs and fades right into Rand's bedroom - traveling through a
gateway kills Shadowspawn!! (as an aside, despite everything else, RJ
does have an impressive ability to work his way around plot problems).
So the question is: what would happen if a 'deathgate' was used on a
gholam?

What's to keep a group of Forsakens from Traveling into Rand's bedroom?

Post by Colin M.
As far as i read 'deathgates' were just moving gateways that snapped
open and shut, and otherwise were no different than regular gateways
Also, with the moving gateway it is no longer necessary to push the
gholam through, which would be presumable difficult given the thing's
strenght. Also unnecessary to have the other end of the gateway in
space or over the ocean, or some other hostile locale.
Maybe it kills the gholam? (the thing is shadowspawn after all)
Maybe the gateway is undone? (the normal effect of weaves that come in
contact with a gholam)
Maybe if somebody asked RJ, he'd reply "RAFO"?
And if somebody already covered this, my appologies.