Unresolved question

Post by TheJakeFactor
While reading KoD I realized that I had forgotten a lot of details from
previous books. So I went to the wot encyclopedia (which by the way is
an excellent source of information) to refresh my memory. One thing I
was left wondering is why Morindin or Shadar Haran didn't join the
Forsaken when they went to stop Rand from cleansing saidin? At the
very least Morindin knew what was happening. Why weren't they there?
I know that this has nothing to do with KoD's but I had to ask.

I think there could be a number of explanations for both, but mostly I
think it comes down to the fact that they are both too valuable to risk
in that kind of situation. Moridin is the Nae'blis (spelling?) and
(IIRC) Shadar Haran is becoming the Dark One's physical incarnation.
Also add in the fact that SH gets weaker as he travels away from SG.
There are probably better and more factual reasons out there, but this
is what I thought when I read WH.

--
James Hammons

Brendan Lavin

2006-02-10 21:17:37 UTC

Snipped

...Shadar Haran is becoming the Dark One's physical incarnation.
Also add in the fact that SH gets weaker as he travels away from SG.
There are probably better and more factual reasons out there, but this
is what I thought when I read WH.

Coming out of lurker mode.
I've always felt that SH is (I know this sounds really out there) Rahvin
back
from almost getting balefired by Rand. I know that there are several
problems with this idea, but I've always felt that RJ left a little hint in
his
"death" scene that we may be seeing more of Rahvin.

Brendan T. Lavin
(formerly known as "Hurin")

Mathius

2006-02-10 22:02:30 UTC

Post by Brendan Lavin
Snipped

Coming out of lurker mode.
I've always felt that SH is (I know this sounds really out there) Rahvin
back
from almost getting balefired by Rand. I know that there are several
problems with this idea, but I've always felt that RJ left a little hint
in his
"death" scene that we may be seeing more of Rahvin.
Brendan T. Lavin
(formerly known as "Hurin")

Rahvin, and Sammael both left an unfinished feel about them when they died,
but in LoC the prologue, the DO admits that Rahvin is dead and beyond his
reach due to the whole balefire thing, so that confirms it for us right
there. Obviously if he can bring people back from the dead, he'd know if
Rahvin was dead or alive. RJ seems to want us to believe Sammael is still
out there, despite originally saying he wasn't, so we'll just have to see
where that goes.

Shadar Haran is the Dark One's "avatar" for lack of a better word. He is
the "hand of the dark" and there's a scene I think in CoT where he makes
that quite clear when dealing with Alivarin and Messaena.

Geoffrey Willmore

2006-02-10 22:36:53 UTC

"Mathius" wrote in message

Post by Mathius
Rahvin, and Sammael both left an unfinished feel about them when they died,
but in LoC the prologue, the DO admits that Rahvin is dead and beyond his
reach due to the whole balefire thing, so that confirms it for us right
there. Obviously if he can bring people back from the dead, he'd know if
Rahvin was dead or alive.

Furthermore, Ravin's firsts attacks, including the one that killed Mat,
Aviendha and Asmodean, were undone after he has been balefired.

Brendan Lavin

2006-02-11 14:29:53 UTC

...the DO admits that Rahvin is dead and beyond his reach due to the whole
balefire thing, so that confirms it for us right there. Obviously if he
can bring people back from the dead, he'd know if Rahvin was dead or alive.

Like I said there are problems with the idea, but when I wrote RJ about
this very issue he didn't shoot it down. Instead I got a RAFO. So I keep
the idea in the back of my head, even if I'm the only one who believes it.

Shadar Haran is the Dark One's "avatar" for lack of a better word. He is
the "hand of the dark" and there's a scene I think in CoT where he makes
that quite clear when dealing with Alivarin and Messaena.

Imagine a "Chosen" in the body of a myrradal (sp?). Do you think he might
be something unusual?

Brendan

Mathius

2006-02-12 00:44:04 UTC

...the DO admits that Rahvin is dead and beyond his reach due to the
whole balefire thing, so that confirms it for us right there. Obviously
if he can bring people back from the dead, he'd know if Rahvin was dead
or alive.

Read Geoffrey Willmore's reply. Rahvin is dead. Period. If it were not
true, then Avienda, Mat, and Asmodean would not have come back to life when
Rand balefired Rahvin. There's your proof. Anything else would be a total
inconsistency by RJ.

Imagine a "Chosen" in the body of a myrradal (sp?). Do you think he might
be something unusual?

Sure it's unusual, but what does it have to do with anything I said? SH
says in CoT:

"Do you think Hand of the Shadow is just a name?" The Myrddraal's voice no
longer grated.

Hollow, it seemed to boom down caverns from some unimaginable distance. The
creature grew as it

spoke, swelling in size till its head brushed the ceiling, over two spans
up. "You were summoned, and

you did not come. My hand reaches far, Mesaana."

A few paragraphs later, Alviarin confirms it....

It flowed toward her-no; not it-the Great Lord, clothed in the skin of a
Myrddraal, flowed

toward her. He walked on legs, yet there was no other description for the
way he moved. The pale,

black-clad shape bent toward her, and she would have shrieked when he
touched a finger to her

forehead. She would have shrieked if she could have summoned any sound at
all. Her lungs were airless

sacks. The touch burned like red-hot iron. Vaguely, she wondered why she did
not smell her own flesh

burning. The Great Lord straightened, and the searing pain dwindled,
vanished. Her terror did not lessen

in the slightest, though.

What more proof do you need?

Post by Brendan Lavin
Brendan

Brendan Lavin

2006-02-12 14:40:44 UTC

...the DO admits that Rahvin is dead and beyond his reach due to the
whole balefire thing, so that confirms it for us right there. Obviously
if he can bring people back from the dead, he'd know if Rahvin was dead
or alive.

Read Geoffrey Willmore's reply. Rahvin is dead. Period. If it were not
true, then Avienda, Mat, and Asmodean would not have come back to life
when Rand balefired Rahvin. There's your proof. Anything else would be a
total inconsistency by RJ.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this. Is this RJ speaking?

Shadar Haran is the Dark One's "avatar" for lack of a better word. He
is the "hand of the dark" and there's a scene I think in CoT where he
makes that quite clear when dealing with Alivarin and Messaena.

Imagine a "Chosen" in the body of a myrradal (sp?). Do you think he might
be something unusual?

Sure it's unusual, but what does it have to do with anything I said? SH
"Do you think Hand of the Shadow is just a name?" The Myrddraal's voice no
longer grated.
Hollow, it seemed to boom down caverns from some unimaginable distance.
The creature grew as it
spoke, swelling in size till its head brushed the ceiling, over two spans
up. "You were summoned, and
you did not come. My hand reaches far, Mesaana."
A few paragraphs later, Alviarin confirms it....
It flowed toward her-no; not it-the Great Lord, clothed in the skin of a
Myrddraal, flowed
toward her. He walked on legs, yet there was no other description for the
way he moved. The pale,
black-clad shape bent toward her, and she would have shrieked when he
touched a finger to her
forehead. She would have shrieked if she could have summoned any sound at
all. Her lungs were airless
sacks. The touch burned like red-hot iron. Vaguely, she wondered why she
did not smell her own flesh
burning. The Great Lord straightened, and the searing pain dwindled,
vanished. Her terror did not lessen
in the slightest, though.
What more proof do you need?

From the Father of Lies?

Brendan

Paul W. Lints Jr.

2006-02-12 19:57:20 UTC

...the DO admits that Rahvin is dead and beyond his reach due to the
whole balefire thing, so that confirms it for us right there. Obviously
if he can bring people back from the dead, he'd know if Rahvin was dead
or alive.

Read Geoffrey Willmore's reply. Rahvin is dead. Period. If it were not
true, then Avienda, Mat, and Asmodean would not have come back to life
when Rand balefired Rahvin. There's your proof. Anything else would be a
total inconsistency by RJ.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this. Is this RJ speaking?

The whole "Rahvin is reincarnated" theory depends on assuming that
Rahvin really wasn't hit by balefire. The fact that Mat, Aviendha, and
co. were all brought back by Rahvin's demise is proof that he really was
hit by balefire. And RJ has confirmed in the past that certain things
(balefire was specifically mentioned) can keep the DO from reincarnating
someone.

--
Paul W. Lints Jr. UIN:25030144
pwlints at csupomona dot edu

Yaser Zhian

2006-02-13 08:47:50 UTC

You know, this reminds me of when Moiraine went through that
ter'angreal and her link with Lan was broken. That is something
that is thought only to occure when the Aes Sedai is dead. (Isn't it?)
But we know she is trapped in the Finnland and not dead.

So maybe there are other surprises of this kind waiting for us.
However, I think bringing back someone who's been Balefired is
a very cheap shot. But what about Sammael? Do we have proof
that he is actually Dead?

-yzt

Brendan Lavin

2006-02-13 15:27:53 UTC

Post by Yaser Zhian
You know, this reminds me of when Moiraine went through that
ter'angreal and her link with Lan was broken. That is something
that is thought only to occure when the Aes Sedai is dead. (Isn't it?)
But we know she is trapped in the Finnland and not dead.
So maybe there are other surprises of this kind waiting for us.
However, I think bringing back someone who's been Balefired is
a very cheap shot.

Remember that this happened in the World of Dreams where
reality blurs. Nynaeve thought she saw "mist" right before Rand
"Balefired" Rahvin (although she dismissed it). This reminded me
of the old tale of the gun on the wall in the first act of a play. If
it was inconsequential, then why did RJ include it?

Brendan

Geoffrey Willmore

2006-02-13 15:45:04 UTC

Post by Brendan Lavin
If
it was inconsequential, then why did RJ include it?

And do you think there is a secret code behind Elayne's dresses colors too?

Brendan Lavin

2006-02-13 18:22:56 UTC

Post by Brendan Lavin
If
it was inconsequential, then why did RJ include it?

And do you think there is a secret code behind Elayne's dresses colors too?

Are you here to debate issues relating to WOT or to hand our juvenile
insults?

Brendan

Nicolas George

2006-02-13 21:49:01 UTC

Post by Brendan Lavin
Are you here to debate issues relating to WOT or to hand our juvenile
insults?

There was a hidden argument: the fact is that any book, and WoT in
particular, is full of details with no immediate relevance the story. They
are there to make the book something agreeable to read, and not a raw
accumulation of facts.

Antonio Contreras

2006-02-14 08:09:41 UTC

Post by Nicolas George

Post by Brendan Lavin
Are you here to debate issues relating to WOT or to hand our juvenile
insults?

What you say is (generally) true, but doesn't apply to what was being
discussed. IMHO the WOT is full of details with no inmediate relevance
to story to the point that there's hardly any room left for the story
itself, at least in books 6 to 9. And that doesn't make the books
agreeable to read. That makes reading the books an excersice of
patience. Dresses description is a perfect example, they can really get
on my nerves. How many times must we be told how some random woman
dress is sewn, or if it has pearls or buttons or whatever? If the
objective was to "paint images" in his readers imagination, a plainer
description would have sufficed.

And on a side note, is there a dress in all Randland that is not
slashed with some colour?

Antonio Contreras

2006-02-14 08:02:28 UTC

Post by Brendan Lavin
If
it was inconsequential, then why did RJ include it?

And do you think there is a secret code behind Elayne's dresses colors too?

Are you here to debate issues relating to WOT or to hand our juvenile
insults?

Man, if you felt insulted by that... you have a very fragile ego, to
say the least.

Brendan Lavin

2006-02-14 15:42:29 UTC

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by Brendan Lavin
If
it was inconsequential, then why did RJ include it?

And do you think there is a secret code behind Elayne's dresses colors too?

Are you here to debate issues relating to WOT or to hand our juvenile
insults?

Man, if you felt insulted by that... you have a very fragile ego, to
say the least.

It was a sophmoric attempt at humor. I don't think the subject deserves
anymore of my time.

Brendan

Cadsuane9000

2006-02-21 19:36:31 UTC

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by Brendan Lavin
If
it was inconsequential, then why did RJ include it?

And do you think there is a secret code behind Elayne's dresses colors too?

Are you here to debate issues relating to WOT or to hand our juvenile
insults?

Man, if you felt insulted by that... you have a very fragile ego, to
say the least.

It was a sophmoric attempt at humor. I don't think the subject deserves
anymore of my time.
Brendan

You mean sophomoric. There's an "o" in there you missed. I'm sure
most high school sophomores could point that out.

Michelle J. Haines

2006-02-13 16:31:46 UTC

No, it happens when the channeler is stilled as well.

Michelle
Flutist

Paul W. Lints Jr.

2006-02-14 08:00:04 UTC

Stilling also breaks an AS's bond with her Warder, "as sure as death".

Post by Yaser Zhian
So maybe there are other surprises of this kind waiting for us.
However, I think bringing back someone who's been Balefired is
a very cheap shot. But what about Sammael? Do we have proof
that he is actually Dead?

Nothing other than an RJ quote saying "he's toast". I could buy RJ
conveniently forgetting that and writing Sammael back into the books
(he's done worse), but bringing Rahvin back would bring up infinitely
more contraditions (and within the books, isntead of just when compared
with something RJ said at a con).

Mathius

2006-02-15 13:29:11 UTC

But they _know_ how balefire works. Whole cities were destroyed before they
figured it out, true, but the difference is, that bonding is something new,
that's unknown even to the Forsaken. There's just too many facts, to have
Rahvin still wandering around out there. The DO himself said he couldn't
resurrect him. Could he have lied? Yes. But that would have seriously
detered the readers developement. I think the purpose of RJ putting that
line in, where the DO says Rahvin is beyond his reach, was to teach us
something about how balefire works, not as a red herring.

Anyways, I maintain that if Rahvin came back, it would be a serious
inconsistency by RJ, and to be honest, with him trying to complete the
series in 1 book, there's no reason for him to bring Rahvin back. He
doesn't have that kind of time schedule and it wouldn't serve any purpose.

Moraine's situation was different. Bonding is somewhat unknown, it's
something that wasn't discovered until after the breaking. It's still being
learned about. They learned something new from the Aiel "sisters" ceremony,
and Elayne modified it so a non-channeler could bond. Plus, Moraine's
return has been foretold since early in the series through Min's viewings.

Mathius

Mathius

2006-02-15 13:32:14 UTC

...the DO admits that Rahvin is dead and beyond his reach due to the
whole balefire thing, so that confirms it for us right there.
Obviously if he can bring people back from the dead, he'd know if
Rahvin was dead or alive.

Read Geoffrey Willmore's reply. Rahvin is dead. Period. If it were not
true, then Avienda, Mat, and Asmodean would not have come back to life
when Rand balefired Rahvin. There's your proof. Anything else would be
a total inconsistency by RJ.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this. Is this RJ speaking?

No, it's a guy in the newsgroup that responded to you. Check the rest of
the thread.

Shadar Haran is the Dark One's "avatar" for lack of a better word. He
is the "hand of the dark" and there's a scene I think in CoT where he
makes that quite clear when dealing with Alivarin and Messaena.

Imagine a "Chosen" in the body of a myrradal (sp?). Do you think he might
be something unusual?

Sure it's unusual, but what does it have to do with anything I said? SH
"Do you think Hand of the Shadow is just a name?" The Myrddraal's voice
no longer grated.
Hollow, it seemed to boom down caverns from some unimaginable distance.
The creature grew as it
spoke, swelling in size till its head brushed the ceiling, over two spans
up. "You were summoned, and
you did not come. My hand reaches far, Mesaana."
A few paragraphs later, Alviarin confirms it....
It flowed toward her-no; not it-the Great Lord, clothed in the skin of a
Myrddraal, flowed
toward her. He walked on legs, yet there was no other description for the
way he moved. The pale,
black-clad shape bent toward her, and she would have shrieked when he
touched a finger to her
forehead. She would have shrieked if she could have summoned any sound at
all. Her lungs were airless
sacks. The touch burned like red-hot iron. Vaguely, she wondered why she
did not smell her own flesh
burning. The Great Lord straightened, and the searing pain dwindled,
vanished. Her terror did not lessen
in the slightest, though.
What more proof do you need?

From the Father of Lies?

I admit that my quote was a bit sketchy in form, because I cut and pasted it
from adobe reader, but you're being terribly inconsistent. I'm giving you a
quote from SH and you're saying you shouldn't believe anything from the
Father of Lies. So aren't you admitting that SH is the Father of Lies, or
the DO?

Anyways, the second quote is from Alviarin and she also believes he is the
DO, and quite frankly what reason do we have to disabelieve it? What makes
you so sure it's Rahvin? I'm very curious. Give me some facts, because
your theory about a chosen in a Fade is interesting, sure, but there doesn't
seem to be any basis for it.

And lastly, RJ has said he wants to try to finish the series in one book, so
what reason would he have for bringing back Rahvin at this point? He
doesn't have the timeframe for it to develop properly, and what point would
it really serve to the story?

Mathius

Brendan Lavin

2006-02-15 14:22:19 UTC

...the DO admits that Rahvin is dead and beyond his reach due to the
whole balefire thing, so that confirms it for us right there.
Obviously if he can bring people back from the dead, he'd know if
Rahvin was dead or alive.

Read Geoffrey Willmore's reply. Rahvin is dead. Period. If it were
not true, then Avienda, Mat, and Asmodean would not have come back to
life when Rand balefired Rahvin. There's your proof. Anything else
would be a total inconsistency by RJ.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this. Is this RJ speaking?

No, it's a guy in the newsgroup that responded to you. Check the rest of
the thread.

The question is, was the quote from RJ?

Shadar Haran is the Dark One's "avatar" for lack of a better word. He
is the "hand of the dark" and there's a scene I think in CoT where he
makes that quite clear when dealing with Alivarin and Messaena.

Imagine a "Chosen" in the body of a myrradal (sp?). Do you think he might
be something unusual?

Sure it's unusual, but what does it have to do with anything I said? SH
"Do you think Hand of the Shadow is just a name?" The Myrddraal's voice
no longer grated.
Hollow, it seemed to boom down caverns from some unimaginable distance.
The creature grew as it
spoke, swelling in size till its head brushed the ceiling, over two
spans up. "You were summoned, and
you did not come. My hand reaches far, Mesaana."
A few paragraphs later, Alviarin confirms it....
It flowed toward her-no; not it-the Great Lord, clothed in the skin of a
Myrddraal, flowed
toward her. He walked on legs, yet there was no other description for
the way he moved. The pale,
black-clad shape bent toward her, and she would have shrieked when he
touched a finger to her
forehead. She would have shrieked if she could have summoned any sound
at all. Her lungs were airless
sacks. The touch burned like red-hot iron. Vaguely, she wondered why she
did not smell her own flesh
burning. The Great Lord straightened, and the searing pain dwindled,
vanished. Her terror did not lessen
in the slightest, though.
What more proof do you need?

From the Father of Lies?

The DO. He is the one who said that Rahvin is beyond him, correct?
SH also thinks to himeself at one point in the series that he has to get
out of "this body." It seems too "human" a response to come from the DO.

Post by Mathius
Anyways, the second quote is from Alviarin and she also believes he is the
DO, and quite frankly what reason do we have to disabelieve it? What
makes you so sure it's Rahvin? I'm very curious. Give me some facts,
because your theory about a chosen in a Fade is interesting, sure, but
there doesn't seem to be any basis for it.

I can't give you any facts. Just what I've seen in the story and feeling
that
SH is more that an avatar for the DO. And Rahvin is the only one who fits.

Just a thought, if SH is the DO's "hand," who is his other "hand?" Moridin?
After all, most of us (maybe not Rand) have two hands.

Post by Mathius
And lastly, RJ has said he wants to try to finish the series in one book,
so what reason would he have for bringing back Rahvin at this point? He
doesn't have the timeframe for it to develop properly, and what point
would it really serve to the story?

I'm not sure I can answer these questions without much more time than I
currently have on my hands. But I do think that the last book in the series
will definitely have a rushed feeling to it. RJ has too many threads left
dangling to properly wrap them up in one book, IMHO.

Brendan

Mathius

2006-02-15 23:46:45 UTC

"Brendan Lavin" <***@optonline.net> wrote in message news:wOGIf.247$***@fe12.lga...
<snip>

Post by Mathius
Read Geoffrey Willmore's reply. Rahvin is dead. Period. If it were
not true, then Avienda, Mat, and Asmodean would not have come back to
life when Rand balefired Rahvin. There's your proof. Anything else
would be a total inconsistency by RJ.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this. Is this RJ speaking?

No, it's a guy in the newsgroup that responded to you. Check the rest of
the thread.

The question is, was the quote from RJ?

I'm getting confused about what quote? There was no reference made to a
quote, simply to the fact that we know Avienda, Mat, and Asmo came back
after being balefired. That should prove that Rahvin died. Someone argued
that it had to do with him being in the Dream World and that that's why he
isn't really dead, but I don't think that makes any sense at all,
personally. He was in the flesh in the dream world, first off, second,
nothing in the dream world has ever been permanent except for personal
wounds from what we can see, so I don't see where Rahvin could have made
Mat, Avienda, and Asmo come back from the dead to fake his own death, or
whatever is being proposed here.

<snip>

Post by Mathius
I admit that my quote was a bit sketchy in form, because I cut and pasted
it from adobe reader, but you're being terribly inconsistent. I'm giving
you a quote from SH and you're saying you shouldn't believe anything from
the Father of Lies. So aren't you admitting that SH is the Father of
Lies, or the DO?

Not really. Think about it. The DO is breaking free, but he isn't free
yet. So if he isn't actually able to free himself completely, what better
way to influence the world personally instead of going through the Chosen
all the time, who keep screwing up? He inserts his own conciousness into a
physical body, in this case a Fade. Don't ask me why a Fade, I don't get
that either, except that they naturally instill terror and are quite deadly.
That would explain why he needed to "get out of the body" and also, the link
to Shayol Ghul that weakens him the further away he goes.

Post by Mathius
Anyways, the second quote is from Alviarin and she also believes he is
the DO, and quite frankly what reason do we have to disabelieve it? What
makes you so sure it's Rahvin? I'm very curious. Give me some facts,
because your theory about a chosen in a Fade is interesting, sure, but
there doesn't seem to be any basis for it.

I can't give you any facts. Just what I've seen in the story and feeling
that
SH is more that an avatar for the DO. And Rahvin is the only one who fits.

See above. Again, I think you're just wishing Rahvin back. I'm not sure
why. I don't see any positive affects he could have on the story by
returning. It would just be another Forsaken running around and RJ hardly
needs one. We've seen almost nothing of what Demandred is up to. If he
needed a character to fill a certain role, he has a few laying around that
we know very little about.

Post by Brendan Lavin
Just a thought, if SH is the DO's "hand," who is his other "hand?"
Moridin?
After all, most of us (maybe not Rand) have two hands.

My opinion is that you're taking that statement too literally.

Well, I'll agree with you there. I think it's completely assinine to try to
finish it in one book and he's just going to ruin it for us that way.

Mathius

Davian

2006-02-16 02:02:21 UTC

...the DO admits that Rahvin is dead and beyond his reach due to the
whole balefire thing, so that confirms it for us right there.
Obviously if he can bring people back from the dead, he'd know if
Rahvin was dead or alive.

Read Geoffrey Willmore's reply. Rahvin is dead. Period. If it were
not true, then Avienda, Mat, and Asmodean would not have come back to
life when Rand balefired Rahvin. There's your proof. Anything else
would be a total inconsistency by RJ.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this. Is this RJ speaking?

No, it's a guy in the newsgroup that responded to you. Check the rest of
the thread.

The question is, was the quote from RJ?

It's not a quote. It's an argument fully supported from the books.

Based on what we know of balefire, there is no possible way that Rahvin
escaped using some T'A'R trick, as you suggest elsewhere in the thread. The
argument goes as follows.

1) Balefire is the only possible way we have been shown that past actions
could have been changed.
2) Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean died in the first attack upon Rand reaching
Camelyn.
3) Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean were returned to life, a fair amount of time
after they died.

The conclusion being that Rand must have killed the channeler who did it with
strong balefire.

Personally, I take it as a given that Rahvin was the perpetrator of the
attack, and therefore must have died by balefire to undo it. The alternative
is well beyond loony, in the loony theory realm. A second incredibly strong
channeler, (whose presense Rahvin tolerated) who died to very strong balefire
off screen, in between the beginning of Rand's attack and when Rand entered
T'a'R.

--
Jeff

Davian / Dearic

Tim Bruening

2010-04-01 02:13:18 UTC

Post by James Hammons

Can Shadar Haran go through a Gateway?

d***@wotmania.com

2006-02-10 01:44:16 UTC