Gasp moment theory spoiler perhaps

[loki1976]

[Mark Erikson]

loki1976 wrote:
Good point.

But I'm left asking, what?

I can't pick out exactly what this gasp moment was supposed to be.

-Mark Erikson

[d***@gmail.com]

Spoiler Space!
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I think it was supposed to be the entire population of Tremalking (the
Ayamar) feeding their kids poison then killing themselves.

[zheemnookin]

RJ was ludicrously moledramatic about the whole thing on his blog,
subtly accusing those unmoved as being sadly jaded and desensitized.

Please. It's his job as an author to make us give a damn about his
characters. The Amayar were mentioned, what, for a whole 20 words? And
they were a group of idiotic fanatics. Good riddance.

If the Tinkers had died -- now that would be GASP-worthy. As it was, RJ
simply wrote off one of the least-developed people in the series. Why
should we give a damn?

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by zheemnookin
RJ was ludicrously moledramatic about the whole thing on his blog,
subtly accusing those unmoved as being sadly jaded and desensitized.
Please. It's his job as an author to make us give a damn about his
characters. The Amayar were mentioned, what, for a whole 20 words? And
they were a group of idiotic fanatics. Good riddance.
If the Tinkers had died -- now that would be GASP-worthy. As it was, RJ
simply wrote off one of the least-developed people in the series. Why
should we give a damn?

It may well be that the intended gasp moment was the auto-genocide of
the Amayar. If so... oh well. For me, the gasp moment was what became
of Galina. In the beginning, her capture and torment at the hands of
the Shaido was just deserts. She was Black Ajah, after all, and
eeeevil. But the torment kept coming -- with her tormentors unaware
that it was merited. It started being psychological, as well, with
Therava promising Galina freedom from the Oath Rod if Galina made
Therava believe she was a willing pet. We know stilling is a frequent
cause of suicide, but Galina wasn't even allowed that option. And the
torment continued. And finally, the Shaido went away and Therava used
the Oath Rod to reduce Galina to little more than a shrieking mind
inside an obedient puppet of a body.

That was shocking. That was... numbing. When I read that, I thought
even SHE doesn't deserve this! And her tormentors, the Shaido...
presumably THIS is the "remnant of a remnant" of the Aiel that will
survive to the next Age. Things like that cause me to gasp.

-- Rajiv

[namo]

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Post by Rajiv Mote
It may well be that the intended gasp moment was the auto-genocide of
the Amayar. If so... oh well. For me, the gasp moment was what became
of Galina. In the beginning, her capture and torment at the hands of
the Shaido was just deserts. She was Black Ajah, after all, and
eeeevil. But the torment kept coming -- with her tormentors unaware
that it was merited. It started being psychological, as well, with
Therava promising Galina freedom from the Oath Rod if Galina made
Therava believe she was a willing pet. We know stilling is a frequent
cause of suicide, but Galina wasn't even allowed that option. And the
torment continued. And finally, the Shaido went away and Therava used
the Oath Rod to reduce Galina to little more than a shrieking mind
inside an obedient puppet of a body.

For what it's worth, my personal gasp moment was the (very) short speech of
Narishma before the Hall - a moving recollection of his friend's passing.
For a wonder, the Hall didn't make some crappy answer to that.
Narishma showing some backbone is added bonus.

Post by Rajiv Mote
That was shocking. That was... numbing. When I read that, I thought
even SHE doesn't deserve this! And her tormentors, the Shaido...
presumably THIS is the "remnant of a remnant" of the Aiel that will
survive to the next Age. Things like that cause me to gasp.

I still can't understand the (apparent - as in written all other the
newsgroup) consensus that those Aiel are going to be the remnant...

[Eric Means]

Post by namo
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Post by Rajiv Mote
That was shocking. That was... numbing. When I read that, I thought
even SHE doesn't deserve this! And her tormentors, the Shaido...
presumably THIS is the "remnant of a remnant" of the Aiel that will
survive to the next Age. Things like that cause me to gasp.

I still can't understand the (apparent - as in written all other the
newsgroup) consensus that those Aiel are going to be the remnant...

I actually wonder if the "remnant" that will be saved are the Tinkers.
After all, the Aiel originally followed the Way of the Leaf; the
Tinkers are the remnant of the remnant of the original Aiel that held
true to their beliefs. It seems entirely possible to me that the rest
of the Aiel will fight in the Last Battle and the aftermath until none
(or not enough) of them are left.

It would also be hugely ironic, as RJ is rather fond of having
prophecies mean not at all what everyone assumes them to mean. (At
least in everyone's case but Rand's, anyway.)

[d***@gmail.com]

<snip>

Post by Eric Means
I actually wonder if the "remnant" that will be saved are the Tinkers.
After all, the Aiel originally followed the Way of the Leaf; the
Tinkers are the remnant of the remnant of the original Aiel that held
true to their beliefs. It seems entirely possible to me that the rest
of the Aiel will fight in the Last Battle and the aftermath until none
(or not enough) of them are left.
It would also be hugely ironic, as RJ is rather fond of having
prophecies mean not at all what everyone assumes them to mean. (At
least in everyone's case but Rand's, anyway.)

I hadn't thought of it that way before, but it's really plausible. The
prophecy actually says "a remnant of a remnant". The tinkers could
qualify as the original remnant, and if some are killed in the coming
chaos (which is a reasonable assumption, LOTS of people are going to
die, period) then only a remnant would remain... Very clever.

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by d***@gmail.com
Spoiler Space!
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.
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.
.
.
.
I think it was supposed to be the entire population of Tremalking (the
Ayamar) feeding their kids poison then killing themselves.

That's what RJ says, yeah. Did anyone care? The freaking Amayar? I didn't
have to go to the glossary, but seriously, we've never met them, they've
never had a PoV, and even the Sea Folk we know barely spoke of them.

Jasper

[Chris Barrera]

Post by d***@gmail.com
Spoiler Space!
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Maybe that was all the whole point of it.

No one in Randland knew they existed except the Sea Folk, and even
they didn't interact with them all that much.

And they passed away.

The readers of the books were able to read very little of them, to learn
about them and know them.

And they passed away.

The author, Jordan, wrote very little of them, and wrote them to pass away
in order to see how everyone would, or should, react.

A whole people no one knew hardly anything about passes away, and the rest
of the freakin' universe didn't know or give a damn.

Except for the Creator.

And interestingly enough, the end of the world is near...
Coincidence ? I wonder.

// No, I am not religious, but this stuff *ought* to make one think.

[zheemnookin]

What is the "point" you're talking about? That no one cared? Well kudos
to RJ for letting us empathize with the rest of the world -- who didn't
care.

Seriously, you think inventing, and wiping out, a poorly-developed
fictional cluster of people is meaningful? No way. It takes more
effort, and more guts, to substantively develop characters well enough
for the reader to feel personally invested in them -- and then jarring
us by having something jarring happen to them.

There is no "bigger message" here. We're operating in a fictional
universe; cultures exist as much as the author makes them exist --
versus the real world, in which we can relatively easily find out and
appreciate different peoples and places. It's heartless not to
sympathize with real tragedy; but I think only the emotionally
hypersensitive can be moved by what happened to the Amayar, since they
consisted of, oh, 25 words, blandly written.

[Velk]

Post by zheemnookin
What is the "point" you're talking about? That no one cared? Well kudos
to RJ for letting us empathize with the rest of the world -- who didn't
care.
Seriously, you think inventing, and wiping out, a poorly-developed
fictional cluster of people is meaningful? No way. It takes more
effort, and more guts, to substantively develop characters well enough
for the reader to feel personally invested in them -- and then jarring
us by having something jarring happen to them.

As a relevant counterexample I found the fate of the Aiel trying to
bring Jaric Mondoran back to himself by singing to be moving, and that
was also a group of people that absolutely nothing was known about
described in a few short paragraphs.

My reaction to the amyar was pretty much 'shrug'. Perhaps it was the
stupidity of their worldview and action leaving me entirely unable to
sympathise, much like a religious fanatic setting themselves on fire,
or a cult suiciding because they saw the cancellation of seinfeld as
the first sign of the apocalypse.

[Mark Erikson]

Post by Velk

Post by zheemnookin
What is the "point" you're talking about? That no one cared? Well kudos
to RJ for letting us empathize with the rest of the world -- who didn't
care.
Seriously, you think inventing, and wiping out, a poorly-developed
fictional cluster of people is meaningful? No way. It takes more
effort, and more guts, to substantively develop characters well enough
for the reader to feel personally invested in them -- and then jarring
us by having something jarring happen to them.

As a relevant counterexample I found the fate of the Aiel trying to
bring Jaric Mondoran back to himself by singing to be moving, and that
was also a group of people that absolutely nothing was known about
described in a few short paragraphs.
My reaction to the amyar was pretty much 'shrug'. Perhaps it was the
stupidity of their worldview and action leaving me entirely unable to
sympathise, much like a religious fanatic setting themselves on fire,
or a cult suiciding because they saw the cancellation of seinfeld as
the first sign of the apocalypse.

Now why would you do this? Surely suicide should wait until the _last_
sign of the apocalypse? Otherwise you never know what you'll miss out
on in the interim between the various signs and the actual nasty stuff.

My best guess would have been Semirhage's diagnosis of Rand. The death
of the Amayar never even registered as a possible gasp moment.

-Mark Erikson

[zheemnookin]

Post by Velk
As a relevant counterexample I found the fate of the Aiel trying to
bring Jaric Mondoran back to himself by singing to be moving, and that
was also a group of people that absolutely nothing was known about
described in a few short paragraphs.

Beautiful example for a beautiful scene. Still, we knew a bit about the
Aiel before then, and that scene pushed them away from flat
one-dimensional characters, and the Aiel continued to be built up for
hundreds of pages. The Amayar had 25 words devoted to their
development, and the only scene that let us plumb their souls (a la
Aiel singing) was homocidal and suicidal idiocy -- which we were never
once allowed to sympathize with, understand, or give two damns about
b/c we knew nothing about them.

Post by Velk
My reaction to the amyar was pretty much 'shrug'. Perhaps it was the
stupidity of their worldview and action leaving me entirely unable to
sympathise, much like a religious fanatic setting themselves on fire,
or a cult suiciding because they saw the cancellation of seinfeld as
the first sign of the apocalypse.

Yes -- that, and the fact that they had zero character development. The
Tinkers have an unrealistic world view that verges on fanatical, but I
guarantee a mass Tinker suicide would have made us all "shrug" less --
or even gasp, since RJ has somewhat developed the Tinkers to the point
where we'd care about them, even if we disagree with their beliefs or
outright dislike them.

[Ranger Fan]

Post by zheemnookin

Post by Velk
As a relevant counterexample I found the fate of the Aiel trying to
bring Jaric Mondoran back to himself by singing to be moving, and that
was also a group of people that absolutely nothing was known about
described in a few short paragraphs.

Beautiful example for a beautiful scene. Still, we knew a bit about the
Aiel before then, and that scene pushed them away from flat
one-dimensional characters, and the Aiel continued to be built up for
hundreds of pages. The Amayar had 25 words devoted to their
development, and the only scene that let us plumb their souls (a la
Aiel singing) was homocidal and suicidal idiocy -- which we were never
once allowed to sympathize with, understand, or give two damns about
b/c we knew nothing about them.

Post by Velk
My reaction to the amyar was pretty much 'shrug'. Perhaps it was the
stupidity of their worldview and action leaving me entirely unable to
sympathise, much like a religious fanatic setting themselves on fire,
or a cult suiciding because they saw the cancellation of seinfeld as
the first sign of the apocalypse.

Yes -- that, and the fact that they had zero character development. The
Tinkers have an unrealistic world view that verges on fanatical, but I
guarantee a mass Tinker suicide would have made us all "shrug" less --
or even gasp, since RJ has somewhat developed the Tinkers to the point
where we'd care about them, even if we disagree with their beliefs or
outright dislike them.

I'm beginning to think the GASP! moment was when a plot line was
actually brought to a close.

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Velk
As a relevant counterexample I found the fate of the Aiel trying to
bring Jaric Mondoran back to himself by singing to be moving, and that
was also a group of people that absolutely nothing was known about
described in a few short paragraphs.

They were the *Aiel*. The ancestors of a group of people we actually knew
a lot about.

Jasper

[Mark Erikson]

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Velk
As a relevant counterexample I found the fate of the Aiel trying to
bring Jaric Mondoran back to himself by singing to be moving, and that
was also a group of people that absolutely nothing was known about
described in a few short paragraphs.

They were the *Aiel*. The ancestors of a group of people we actually knew
a lot about.

I do believe that was his point.

-Mark Erikson

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by Velk

Post by zheemnookin
What is the "point" you're talking about? That no one cared? Well kudos
to RJ for letting us empathize with the rest of the world -- who didn't
care.
Seriously, you think inventing, and wiping out, a poorly-developed
fictional cluster of people is meaningful? No way. It takes more
effort, and more guts, to substantively develop characters well enough
for the reader to feel personally invested in them -- and then jarring
us by having something jarring happen to them.

My reaction to the amyar was pretty much 'shrug'. Perhaps it was the
stupidity of their worldview and action leaving me entirely unable to
sympathise, much like a religious fanatic setting themselves on fire,
or a cult suiciding because they saw the cancellation of seinfeld as
the first sign of the apocalypse.

The point is that Rand and Nynaeve were responsible for what happened.
If and when Rand finds out about this, he is going to freak. It may
even be the event that brings him to tears.

-Bill E. Brooks

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by Velk

Post by zheemnookin
What is the "point" you're talking about? That no one cared? Well kudos
to RJ for letting us empathize with the rest of the world -- who didn't
care.
Seriously, you think inventing, and wiping out, a poorly-developed
fictional cluster of people is meaningful? No way. It takes more
effort, and more guts, to substantively develop characters well enough
for the reader to feel personally invested in them -- and then jarring
us by having something jarring happen to them.

My reaction to the amyar was pretty much 'shrug'. Perhaps it was the
stupidity of their worldview and action leaving me entirely unable to
sympathise, much like a religious fanatic setting themselves on fire,
or a cult suiciding because they saw the cancellation of seinfeld as
the first sign of the apocalypse.

The point is that Rand and Nynaeve were responsible for what happened.
If and when Rand finds out about this, he is going to freak. It may
even be the event that brings him to tears.
-Bill E. Brooks

The characters' perceptions aside (they feel responsible for far more
than they should), ARE Rand and Nynaeve responsible? Or are Alviarin
and Mesaana responsible? In the "To Make an Anchor Weep" chapter of
KoD, we learn that the Amayar killed themselves when the female Choeden
Kal was destroyed. But why was it destroyed? The male statue is still
intact.

We know that Mesaana taught Alviarin how to Travel, and we know that
Alviarin Traveled to Tremalking. Perhaps she sabotaged the female
statue, but the "how" of it remains a mystery.

[Sorcha]

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by Velk
My reaction to the amyar was pretty much 'shrug'. Perhaps it was the
stupidity of their worldview and action leaving me entirely unable to
sympathise, much like a religious fanatic setting themselves on fire,
or a cult suiciding because they saw the cancellation of seinfeld as
the first sign of the apocalypse.

The point is that Rand and Nynaeve were responsible for what happened.
If and when Rand finds out about this, he is going to freak. It may
even be the event that brings him to tears.

The characters' perceptions aside (they feel responsible for far more
than they should), ARE Rand and Nynaeve responsible? Or are Alviarin
and Mesaana responsible? In the "To Make an Anchor Weep" chapter of
KoD, we learn that the Amayar killed themselves when the female Choeden
Kal was destroyed. But why was it destroyed? The male statue is still
intact.
We know that Mesaana taught Alviarin how to Travel, and we know that
Alviarin Traveled to Tremalking. Perhaps she sabotaged the female
statue, but the "how" of it remains a mystery.

Good point - we never *did* find out what Alviarin was up to on
Tremalking that would take so long. Booby trap?

Sorcha

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by Sorcha

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by Velk
My reaction to the amyar was pretty much 'shrug'. Perhaps it was the
stupidity of their worldview and action leaving me entirely unable to
sympathise, much like a religious fanatic setting themselves on fire,
or a cult suiciding because they saw the cancellation of seinfeld as
the first sign of the apocalypse.

The point is that Rand and Nynaeve were responsible for what happened.
If and when Rand finds out about this, he is going to freak. It may
even be the event that brings him to tears.

The characters' perceptions aside (they feel responsible for far more
than they should), ARE Rand and Nynaeve responsible? Or are Alviarin
and Mesaana responsible? In the "To Make an Anchor Weep" chapter of
KoD, we learn that the Amayar killed themselves when the female Choeden
Kal was destroyed. But why was it destroyed? The male statue is still
intact.
We know that Mesaana taught Alviarin how to Travel, and we know that
Alviarin Traveled to Tremalking. Perhaps she sabotaged the female
statue, but the "how" of it remains a mystery.

Good point - we never *did* find out what Alviarin was up to on
Tremalking that would take so long. Booby trap?

Even if that is true, Rand and Nynaeve will still blame themselves,
at least until they find out otherwise. Also, if she was to tamper
with the sa'angreal, wouldn't she have tried to fix it so that
the taint couldn't be clensed? If so, she failed in her mission.

-Bill E. Brooks

[Calenth]

For me at least it wasn't so much "what's the gasp moment" as "WHICH
gasp moment." Which was nice to see in this book for a change.

[Timothy Bruening]

Post by Chris Barrera

Post by d***@gmail.com
Spoiler Space!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Maybe that was all the whole point of it.
No one in Randland knew they existed except the Sea Folk, and even
they didn't interact with them all that much.
And they passed away.
The readers of the books were able to read very little of them, to learn
about them and know them.
And they passed away.
The author, Jordan, wrote very little of them, and wrote them to pass away
in order to see how everyone would, or should, react.
A whole people no one knew hardly anything about passes away, and the rest
of the freakin' universe didn't know or give a damn.

The Sea Folk certainly cared! They were reduced to weeping heaps!

The Sea Folk claimed that the Ayamar had long ago asked them for protection from pirates and brigands, and that the Sea Folk still owed them protection. The Sea Folk leader wanted to send ships to all their islands to search for survivors. I wonder what the Ayamar did for the Sea Folk to evoke such devotion?

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by d***@gmail.com
Spoiler Space!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I think it was supposed to be the entire population of Tremalking (the
Ayamar) feeding their kids poison then killing themselves.

That's what RJ says, yeah. Did anyone care? The freaking Amayar? I didn't
have to go to the glossary, but seriously, we've never met them, they've
never had a PoV, and even the Sea Folk we know barely spoke of them.
Jasper

Nitpick that in no way invalidates your point: in Winter's Heart, "With
the Choden Kal" we have a brief point-of-view of Timna, an Amayar girl
on Tremalking.

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by d***@gmail.com
Spoiler Space!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I think it was supposed to be the entire population of Tremalking (the
Ayamar) feeding their kids poison then killing themselves.

That's what RJ says, yeah. Did anyone care? The freaking Amayar? I didn't
have to go to the glossary, but seriously, we've never met them, they've
never had a PoV, and even the Sea Folk we know barely spoke of them.

Nitpick that in no way invalidates your point: in Winter's Heart, "With
the Choden Kal" we have a brief point-of-view of Timna, an Amayar girl
on Tremalking.

Huh. Well, colour me "didn't-reread".


Jasper