Second Most Powerful Male Sa'angreal

[Francis Kahoy]

First time posting here. I checked the back threads, but this doesn't
seem to have been touched on yet. I wanted to ask people about their
thoughts on this.

---

Robert Jordan told us, through Lanfear, that there was another male
sa'angreal stronger than Callandor. Besides the male Choedan Kal. It
may even still exist.

From the chapter "Decisions" in The Shadow Rising:

"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She came closer and
he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far-
and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a
kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she
added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that
a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I
will not trust you yet with that."


At this point, Lanfear's already seen the male statue in Cairhein, so
that accounts for the one she knows still exists. The other male
sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor may have been lost during the
War of Power or more likely the Breaking. Or Jordan may yet pull out
of his sleeve.

The question is, if it still exists, where is it? There are a few
clues. First of all, it's a good bet that it was this sa'angreal, and
not Callandor, that Lews Therin used to seal the Bore. Since he was
bereft of female channelers, linking for additional power (not to
mention precision) was impossible despite his Hundred Companions.
Therefore Lews Therin would have essentially had to do it all alone,
the Companions and non-channellers with him there solely to keep the
bad guys off his back while he did so. It would have made sense under
such circumstances to use the most powerful and stable sa'angreal he
had access to. Callandor being the weaker and more dangerous, and the
CK being unavailable, that leaves the one Lanfear alluded to.

Consider then that if it was the sa'angreal Lews Therin used to seal
the Bore, and given that he and the Hundred Companions went mad on the
spot, it would have been left someplace where Mr. Moridin may
eventually get his hands on it. Also of note is the fact that LTT
killed himself by drawing to much of the Power. Which means that he
wasn't using a sa'angreal (which would have protected him with its
buffer) when he died. Ergo, he'd lost sometime between the Strike and
his suicide.

So where is it?

But... actually, now that I think on it, a True Power junkie like
Ishamael might not bother with even the second strongest male
sa'angreal ever made.

Much more fitting for Mr. Second Best to have to face a Dragon Reborn
armed with the Choedan Kal with only the second best sa'angreal.
Demandred always wanted to be where Lews Therin was. Back in the Age
of Legends he probably wanted the use of the powerful sa'angreal
granted to Lews Therin as well. He'll finally get his wish when he
gets his hands on Male Sa'angreal Number Two, but with full poetic
justice he'll just be second best again.

I really like this theory because of late, the Forsaken seem to be
becoming helpless against Rand. Giving one of them (Demandred) access
to a great sa'angreal would make them formidable again.

[Quinn]

Post by Francis Kahoy
First time posting here. I checked the back threads, but this doesn't
seem to have been touched on yet. I wanted to ask people about their
thoughts on this.

Welcome. I'm a newbie too but this sounds like a good post to me.

Post by Francis Kahoy
Robert Jordan told us, through Lanfear, that there was another male
sa'angreal stronger than Callandor. Besides the male Choedan Kal. It
may even still exist.

<snip quote from TSR>

Post by Francis Kahoy
At this point, Lanfear's already seen the male statue in Cairhein, so
that accounts for the one she knows still exists. The other male
sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor may have been lost during the
War of Power or more likely the Breaking. Or Jordan may yet pull out
of his sleeve.
The question is, if it still exists, where is it? There are a few
clues. First of all, it's a good bet that it was this sa'angreal, and
not Callandor, that Lews Therin used to seal the Bore. Since he was
bereft of female channelers, linking for additional power (not to
mention precision) was impossible despite his Hundred Companions.
Therefore Lews Therin would have essentially had to do it all alone,
the Companions and non-channellers with him there solely to keep the
bad guys off his back while he did so. It would have made sense under
such circumstances to use the most powerful and stable sa'angreal he
had access to. Callandor being the weaker and more dangerous, and the
CK being unavailable, that leaves the one Lanfear alluded to.
Consider then that if it was the sa'angreal Lews Therin used to seal
the Bore, and given that he and the Hundred Companions went mad on the
spot, it would have been left someplace where Mr. Moridin may
eventually get his hands on it.

Not necessarily. He could have gone mad, and still held on to the thing and
used it on his rampages, and lost it sometime later. He could have just as
easily carried it away from Shayol Ghul as dropped it there. If it was
dropped there, it surely would have been found by _someone_ in the meantime.

As to where it could be, really, it could be anywhere. We know it was not
in Rhuidean, or Rand would have found it when he found the access keys. We
also know it wasn't in Tear, since that's where he found the fat man. One
possibility is that it's among the crap in the Kin storehouse. Let's hope
stupid bitch-ass Elayne didn't throw it away b/c she didn't detect that it
could be used for _saidar_. IIRC she tossed a lot of that stuff at the
Kin's farm. If she did, it could have been picked up by the Seanchan, which
means it could concievably get back to Semirhage (but only if someone
recognized it as important enough to return to Ebou Dar, and then she
somehow found out about it), and then on to Demandred (thus fulfilling your
theory below), perhaps in a trade for something of value he has that she
would need. Or, since we know Moridin was watching the girls leave Ebou
Dar, he may have stalked them to the Kin's farm and taken it.

Post by Francis Kahoy
Also of note is the fact that LTT
killed himself by drawing to much of the Power. Which means that he
wasn't using a sa'angreal (which would have protected him with its
buffer) when he died. Ergo, he'd lost sometime between the Strike and
his suicide.

Damn, you cut off my idea that he could have used it to draw on too much
Power. I had forgotten about that aspect of *angreals.

Post by Francis Kahoy
So where is it?
But... actually, now that I think on it, a True Power junkie like
Ishamael might not bother with even the second strongest male
sa'angreal ever made.

He would get his hands on it so no one else could have it. Plus, if he had
that thing he'd probably be more formidable than if he was just using TP.

Post by Francis Kahoy
Much more fitting for Mr. Second Best to have to face a Dragon Reborn
armed with the Choedan Kal with only the second best sa'angreal.
Demandred always wanted to be where Lews Therin was. Back in the Age
of Legends he probably wanted the use of the powerful sa'angreal
granted to Lews Therin as well. He'll finally get his wish when he
gets his hands on Male Sa'angreal Number Two, but with full poetic
justice he'll just be second best again.

This would be cool, it would give Demandred something to do other than pull
strings from the background. He tries to ambush Rand during TG with it, and
Rand brings out the access key. "I see your Schwartz is as big as mine" and
all that.

Post by Francis Kahoy
I really like this theory because of late, the Forsaken seem to be
becoming helpless against Rand. Giving one of them (Demandred) access
to a great sa'angreal would make them formidable again.

Agreed. The Dark needs some badass Power items so they can go head-to-head
with The Man.


-Q-

[PadanFain]

"Quinn" <***@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote
-cut-

okay, my first time posting here, too. hello and welcome, thank you :)

I just wanted to say, I believe JOrdan said, in an interview, that the Ring
of the Tamerlyn (sorry for spelling) was a sangreal - the ring Lews Therin
wore as head of aes sedai - and it is probably the ter'angreal you're
thinking of.
And, when asked about it, he said it was a RAFO. so, we can only hope.

z.

[Quinn]

Post by PadanFain
-cut-
okay, my first time posting here, too. hello and welcome, thank you :)

It's probably a good idea not to cut out _everything_ in a previous post.

Post by PadanFain
I just wanted to say, I believe JOrdan said, in an interview, that the Ring
of the Tamerlyn (sorry for spelling) was a sangreal - the ring Lews Therin
wore as head of aes sedai - and it is probably the ter'angreal you're
thinking of.
And, when asked about it, he said it was a RAFO. so, we can only hope.

According to the FAQ (2.4.06), it's in the appendix for _To The Blight_:

"Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or
sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power"
http://www.arkane-systems.net/faqs/WOTFAQ/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.06_tamyrlin.html

So maybe in the prologue to TEOTW Ishy should have said, "Once you wore the
Ring of Tamyrlin, before your stupid ass lost it after you sealed the Bore."
If that's what Lanfear is referring to, it could be anywhere.

Now if they'd just start checking riverbeds...


-Q-

[Michael Adams]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:17:42 -0500, "Quinn"

Post by Quinn
"Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or
sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power"
http://www.arkane-systems.net/faqs/WOTFAQ/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.06_tamyrlin.html
So maybe in the prologue to TEOTW Ishy should have said, "Once you wore the
Ring of Tamyrlin, before your stupid ass lost it after you sealed the Bore."
If that's what Lanfear is referring to, it could be anywhere.
Now if they'd just start checking riverbeds...

...or start watching MTV to see who's giving uncourteous speeches upon
receiving movie awards. :)

[Francis Kahoy]

Post by PadanFain
-cut-
okay, my first time posting here, too. hello and welcome, thank you :)
I just wanted to say, I believe JOrdan said, in an interview, that the Ring
of the Tamerlyn (sorry for spelling) was a sangreal - the ring Lews Therin
wore as head of aes sedai - and it is probably the ter'angreal you're
thinking of.
And, when asked about it, he said it was a RAFO. so, we can only hope.
z.

Can you or anyone else point me to this interview? I know that the
Ring of Tamyrlin is an *'angreal of some sort, but I've never seen an
RJ quote that explicitly stated that it's a sa'angreal.

Much appreciate it if someone were to direct me to one.

[Francis Kahoy]

Post by Quinn

Post by Francis Kahoy
Much more fitting for Mr. Second Best to have to face a Dragon Reborn
armed with the Choedan Kal with only the second best sa'angreal.
Demandred always wanted to be where Lews Therin was. Back in the Age
of Legends he probably wanted the use of the powerful sa'angreal
granted to Lews Therin as well. He'll finally get his wish when he
gets his hands on Male Sa'angreal Number Two, but with full poetic
justice he'll just be second best again.

This would be cool, it would give Demandred something to do other than pull
strings from the background. He tries to ambush Rand during TG with it, and
Rand brings out the access key. "I see your Schwartz is as big as mine" and
all that.

Post by Francis Kahoy
I really like this theory because of late, the Forsaken seem to be
becoming helpless against Rand. Giving one of them (Demandred) access
to a great sa'angreal would make them formidable again.

Agreed. The Dark needs some badass Power items so they can go head-to-head
with The Man.
-Q-

Yup.

But I was thinking less along the lines of Spaceballs and more of
Crocodile Dundee:

Rand, in a pronounced Two Rivers accent, said, "That's not a
sa'angreal. This is a Sa'angreal!"

:)

[p***@yahoo.com]

Post by Francis Kahoy
First time posting here. I checked the back threads, but this doesn't
seem to have been touched on yet. I wanted to ask people about their
thoughts on this.
---
Robert Jordan told us, through Lanfear, that there was another male
sa'angreal stronger than Callandor. Besides the male Choedan Kal. It
may even still exist.
"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She came closer and
he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far-
and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a
kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she
added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that
a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I
will not trust you yet with that."
At this point, Lanfear's already seen the male statue in Cairhein, so
that accounts for the one she knows still exists. The other male
sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor may have been lost during the
War of Power or more likely the Breaking. Or Jordan may yet pull out
of his sleeve.

He might already have:

Ring of Tamyrlin (TAHM-ehr-lin): a legendary ring, believed mythical
by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of
Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an
angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly
was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the Source
and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by
that man or woman. Despite what many Aes Sedai say, no one knows
whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel. Some
believe that the present title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin.

[Borrowed from the FAQ @
http://www.arkane-systems.net/faqs/WOTFAQ/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.06_tamyrlin.html]

If nothing else, we know Lews Therin would be the one to posses the
Ring. Provided the bit about it being a sa'angreal is true it would
fit the bill nicely.

Post by Francis Kahoy
The question is, if it still exists, where is it? There are a few
clues. First of all, it's a good bet that it was this sa'angreal, and
not Callandor, that Lews Therin used to seal the Bore. Since he was
bereft of female channelers, linking for additional power (not to
mention precision) was impossible despite his Hundred Companions.
Therefore Lews Therin would have essentially had to do it all alone,
the Companions and non-channellers with him there solely to keep the
bad guys off his back while he did so. It would have made sense under
such circumstances to use the most powerful and stable sa'angreal he
had access to. Callandor being the weaker and more dangerous, and the
CK being unavailable, that leaves the one Lanfear alluded to.

Agreed. That makes a good deal of sense, Ring or not. Further more,
it was implied that Callandor was never utilized on the battle field
and it's flawed and weaponized nature would make it a bad choice for
the Sealing. I don't think Lews Therin would have been desperate
enough to use an unstable weapons to try and fix the Bore.

Post by Francis Kahoy
Consider then that if it was the sa'angreal Lews Therin used to seal
the Bore, and given that he and the Hundred Companions went mad on the
spot, it would have been left someplace where Mr. Moridin may
eventually get his hands on it. Also of note is the fact that LTT
killed himself by drawing to much of the Power. Which means that he
wasn't using a sa'angreal (which would have protected him with its
buffer) when he died. Ergo, he'd lost sometime between the Strike and
his suicide.

Ishamael wouldn't necessarily have gotten the sa'angreal. LTT might
well have taken it with him as he left and lost it some time between
then. Or he might have had it when he died. Rand's experience with
the Choedan Kal show that it is possible to harm one's self with the
One Power even using a sa'angreal; given that LTT did what he did with
deliberately suicidal intentions it's not impossible to think he did
over dose on the OP.

Post by Francis Kahoy
So where is it?

Might be in Sammael's hoarde (though likely not), Rhudiean, the Great
Holding of Tear, or at a location we're totally unaware of.

Post by Francis Kahoy
But... actually, now that I think on it, a True Power junkie like
Ishamael might not bother with even the second strongest male
sa'angreal ever made.

Ishamael might be occassionaly dismissive of the One Power, but even
he was interested in Callandor. So I doubt he would pass up the
second most power sa'angreal ever.

Post by Francis Kahoy
Much more fitting for Mr. Second Best to have to face a Dragon Reborn
armed with the Choedan Kal with only the second best sa'angreal.
Demandred always wanted to be where Lews Therin was. Back in the Age
of Legends he probably wanted the use of the powerful sa'angreal
granted to Lews Therin as well. He'll finally get his wish when he
gets his hands on Male Sa'angreal Number Two, but with full poetic
justice he'll just be second best again.

Well, Demandred and Bel'al were the two that launched the offensive
that capture the access keys...

Post by Francis Kahoy
I really like this theory because of late, the Forsaken seem to be
becoming helpless against Rand. Giving one of them (Demandred) access
to a great sa'angreal would make them formidable again.

If that's the best he can do to make the Foresaken a bigger threat
(and I think they're plenty tough, just poorly organized which Moridin
and Shaidar seem to be remedying) I think it's incredibly lame.
Instead I think he'll just continue what he has been doing for the
last few books, gathering up the Shadow's forces and preparing them
to start the War of Power II. I mean we've got the Foresaken being
pulled together, potential Dreadlords and Dreadladies popping up all
over, and the Big Cheese back. Things are looking dire.

[AcornArmy]

Post by p***@yahoo.com
Ishamael wouldn't necessarily have gotten the sa'angreal. LTT might
well have taken it with him as he left and lost it some time between
then. Or he might have had it when he died. Rand's experience with
the Choedan Kal show that it is possible to harm one's self with the
One Power even using a sa'angreal; given that LTT did what he did with
deliberately suicidal intentions it's not impossible to think he did
over dose on the OP.

A brief comment here: Rand wasn't really harmed by using the Choedan Kal.
It was more like an advanced stage of exhaustion, due to channeling ungodly
amounts of saidin all day long. Rand still couldn't have drawn in too much
and killed himself, and for LTT to die from using a sa'angreal, he'd have
had to do pretty much the same thing that Rand did. It would've taken hours
before he reached a fatal level of exhaustion, and LTT's death seemed to
happen pretty quickly.

[Quinn]

<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...

<snip>

Post by p***@yahoo.com
Ishamael wouldn't necessarily have gotten the sa'angreal. LTT might
well have taken it with him as he left and lost it some time between
then. Or he might have had it when he died. Rand's experience with
the Choedan Kal show that it is possible to harm one's self with the
One Power even using a sa'angreal; given that LTT did what he did with
deliberately suicidal intentions it's not impossible to think he did
over dose on the OP.

I doubt he had it with him if he died.

"Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided;
his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw
more, tried to draw it all." [TEOTW, Prologue - Dragonmount, xiv (mass
market paperback edition)]

I suppose it's possible that he had it in his pocket and just didn't draw
through it. If so, I'd bet it was vaporized. Which in a way would fit,
since the Ring of Tamyrlin represented the old structure of the Aes Sedai.
The Ring was destroyed (heh) as was the old regime.

<snip to end>


-Q-

[moleman]

Post by p***@yahoo.com

Post by Francis Kahoy
First time posting here. I checked the back threads, but this doesn't
seem to have been touched on yet. I wanted to ask people about their
thoughts on this.
---
Robert Jordan told us, through Lanfear, that there was another male
sa'angreal stronger than Callandor. Besides the male Choedan Kal. It
may even still exist.
"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She came closer and
he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far-
and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a
kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she
added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that
a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I
will not trust you yet with that."
At this point, Lanfear's already seen the male statue in Cairhein, so
that accounts for the one she knows still exists. The other male
sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor may have been lost during the
War of Power or more likely the Breaking. Or Jordan may yet pull out
of his sleeve.

Ring of Tamyrlin (TAHM-ehr-lin): a legendary ring, believed mythical
by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of
Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an
angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly
was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the Source
and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by
that man or woman. Despite what many Aes Sedai say, no one knows
whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel. Some
believe that the present title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin.
http://www.arkane-systems.net/faqs/WOTFAQ/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.06_tamyrlin.html]
If nothing else, we know Lews Therin would be the one to posses the
Ring. Provided the bit about it being a sa'angreal is true it would
fit the bill nicely.

Post by Francis Kahoy
The question is, if it still exists, where is it? There are a few
clues. First of all, it's a good bet that it was this sa'angreal, and
not Callandor, that Lews Therin used to seal the Bore. Since he was
bereft of female channelers, linking for additional power (not to
mention precision) was impossible despite his Hundred Companions.
Therefore Lews Therin would have essentially had to do it all alone,
the Companions and non-channellers with him there solely to keep the
bad guys off his back while he did so. It would have made sense under
such circumstances to use the most powerful and stable sa'angreal he
had access to. Callandor being the weaker and more dangerous, and the
CK being unavailable, that leaves the one Lanfear alluded to.

Agreed. That makes a good deal of sense, Ring or not. Further more,
it was implied that Callandor was never utilized on the battle field
and it's flawed and weaponized nature would make it a bad choice for
the Sealing. I don't think Lews Therin would have been desperate
enough to use an unstable weapons to try and fix the Bore.

Post by Francis Kahoy
Consider then that if it was the sa'angreal Lews Therin used to seal
the Bore, and given that he and the Hundred Companions went mad on the
spot, it would have been left someplace where Mr. Moridin may
eventually get his hands on it. Also of note is the fact that LTT
killed himself by drawing to much of the Power. Which means that he
wasn't using a sa'angreal (which would have protected him with its
buffer) when he died. Ergo, he'd lost sometime between the Strike and
his suicide.

Ishamael wouldn't necessarily have gotten the sa'angreal. LTT might
well have taken it with him as he left and lost it some time between
then. Or he might have had it when he died. Rand's experience with
the Choedan Kal show that it is possible to harm one's self with the
One Power even using a sa'angreal; given that LTT did what he did with
deliberately suicidal intentions it's not impossible to think he did
over dose on the OP.

Post by Francis Kahoy
So where is it?

Might be in Sammael's hoarde (though likely not), Rhudiean, the Great
Holding of Tear, or at a location we're totally unaware of.

<snip rest>

Okay; REALLY Looney Theory here:

This one just came to me while reading this thread. Stipulating that
there IS a saidin sa'angreal between Callandor and the CK, AND that
this SA is the legendary Ring of the Tamyrlin, AND that the RotT is in
fact a ring (not medallion, crown, or something else just *called* a
ring:

What if Mat's ring is the RotT?! He has incredible luck, and it would
take an enormous amount of luck for anyone to find the second most
powerful sa'angreal ever. I know, it's (Mat's ring) always described
as a "try-piece" or some such, just to show the carver's skill, but
IIRC, the carver doesn't say that, Mat just assumes it. And I know,
the significance seems to be the image, with its ravens and foxes, and
their (at least the ravens) importance to the Seanchen. But imagine:

Mat rides Pips up to the gates of the Stone of Tear, leaping out of
the saddle and handing the reins to the groomsmen who come to meet
him.

"Is he here?", Mat growled to the man who took the reins from him.

"Yes, my Lord. He waits for you inside."

Blah, blah, blah.

Mat stormed into the Stone. He sees Rand. Colors, colors, colors.

Rand reaches out, relief and exhaustion playing across his face, and
clasps Mat's hand warmly.

"Thank you, Mat. You've done well. Elayne is safe as Queen, the Band
of the Red Hand is harrying the last of the Shaido, and you've brought
me the one Seanchen I need to speak with, and I cannot... WHAT THE
FUCK DO YOU HAVE ON YOUR HAND?!!! That ring, it's sa'angreal!! It's
more powerful than fucking Callandor. Light, man, where did you get
this?"

"Fucking dice. Fucking luck. Fucking One Fucking Power. Will I
never be rid of it?!" Mat exclaimed, snatching the rind off and
shoving it at Rand.

"Fucking A" exclaimed Olver.

"Where does he pick up language like that?!" muttered Mat.

<end dream/nightmare vision>

And later in the book (Book #17: I'm Not Even Trying to Finish the
Story Any More):

Rand faced the man warily. He didn't recognize the young face before
him, but it seemed familar, in some odd way. He knew he had never
seen this man, but looking at him was like looking at a distorted
mirror. He knew the man was evil, deserved to die, and, trapped
though he was in the Stedding, cut off from the True Source, he meant
to kill him whatever it cost.

"Cadsuane never told you what happened to your uncle.", the man called
Slayer intoned, ominously.

"She told me enough... she told me you killed him.", Rand replied
flatly.

"No, Rand. *I* am your uncle." Slayer responded, eyes blazing with
mirth and hate.

"No. It's not true. That's impossible!" Rand cried.

Swords out, they clashed. Parting the Silk met Cutting the Cheese.
Dances with Wolves met the Unbearable Lightness of Being. Rand was
wrapped in the Void, moving as if through a City in the Clouds.
Slayer met every thrust, and Rand could only parry his opponent's
attacks. Slowly, exhaustion set in. And striking out desperately,
Rand tried to Sheathe the Sword. Slayer, not fooled, struck not for
the open heart, but, with a wide swing of his sword, blazing with an
evil red light, sliced Rand's right hand cleanly from the wrist.

As Rand, moaning in sudden agony, fell to the ground, despair filling
his soul, Slayer stopped.

"It's a shame my employer won't let me kill you now", he said, bending
down to pick up Rand's severed hand. "But he wants this immediately."
With that, he stepped into the Unseen World and vanished.

Too late, Rand realized. Not only his hand had been lost. Sitting on
the third finger of that hand had been the Ring. And now one of the
Forsaken surely had it.

... To be continued, in Book 18: You'll Never Stop Buying these
Fucking Things, Will You?

Sorry, I got carried away for a while there.

Anyways, I don't believe for a second that Mat's ring is the
Tamyrlin's, but I thought it was an interesting enough idea to put out
there. Please feel free to support/destroy this Looney Theory as you
wish.

Peace favor your sword,

Brian

[Loial]

***@hotmail.com (moleman) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...

<snip>

Post by moleman
This one just came to me while reading this thread. Stipulating that
there IS a saidin sa'angreal between Callandor and the CK, AND that
this SA is the legendary Ring of the Tamyrlin, AND that the RotT is in
fact a ring (not medallion, crown, or something else just *called* a
What if Mat's ring is the RotT?! He has incredible luck, and it would
take an enormous amount of luck for anyone to find the second most
powerful sa'angreal ever. I know, it's (Mat's ring) always described
as a "try-piece" or some such, just to show the carver's skill, but
IIRC, the carver doesn't say that, Mat just assumes it. And I know,
the significance seems to be the image, with its ravens and foxes, and
Mat rides Pips up to the gates of the Stone of Tear, leaping out of
the saddle and handing the reins to the groomsmen who come to meet
him.
"Is he here?", Mat growled to the man who took the reins from him.
"Yes, my Lord. He waits for you inside."
Blah, blah, blah.
Mat stormed into the Stone. He sees Rand. Colors, colors, colors.
Rand reaches out, relief and exhaustion playing across his face, and
clasps Mat's hand warmly.
"Thank you, Mat. You've done well. Elayne is safe as Queen, the Band
of the Red Hand is harrying the last of the Shaido, and you've brought
me the one Seanchen I need to speak with, and I cannot... WHAT THE
FUCK DO YOU HAVE ON YOUR HAND?!!! That ring, it's sa'angreal!! It's
more powerful than fucking Callandor. Light, man, where did you get
this?"
"Fucking dice. Fucking luck. Fucking One Fucking Power. Will I
never be rid of it?!" Mat exclaimed, snatching the rind off and
shoving it at Rand.
"Fucking A" exclaimed Olver.
"Where does he pick up language like that?!" muttered Mat.
<end dream/nightmare vision>
And later in the book (Book #17: I'm Not Even Trying to Finish the
Rand faced the man warily. He didn't recognize the young face before
him, but it seemed familar, in some odd way. He knew he had never
seen this man, but looking at him was like looking at a distorted
mirror. He knew the man was evil, deserved to die, and, trapped
though he was in the Stedding, cut off from the True Source, he meant
to kill him whatever it cost.
"Cadsuane never told you what happened to your uncle.", the man called
Slayer intoned, ominously.
"She told me enough... she told me you killed him.", Rand replied
flatly.
"No, Rand. *I* am your uncle." Slayer responded, eyes blazing with
mirth and hate.
"No. It's not true. That's impossible!" Rand cried.
Swords out, they clashed. Parting the Silk met Cutting the Cheese.
Dances with Wolves met the Unbearable Lightness of Being. Rand was
wrapped in the Void, moving as if through a City in the Clouds.
Slayer met every thrust, and Rand could only parry his opponent's
attacks. Slowly, exhaustion set in. And striking out desperately,
Rand tried to Sheathe the Sword. Slayer, not fooled, struck not for
the open heart, but, with a wide swing of his sword, blazing with an
evil red light, sliced Rand's right hand cleanly from the wrist.
As Rand, moaning in sudden agony, fell to the ground, despair filling
his soul, Slayer stopped.
"It's a shame my employer won't let me kill you now", he said, bending
down to pick up Rand's severed hand. "But he wants this immediately."
With that, he stepped into the Unseen World and vanished.
Too late, Rand realized. Not only his hand had been lost. Sitting on
the third finger of that hand had been the Ring. And now one of the
Forsaken surely had it.
... To be continued, in Book 18: You'll Never Stop Buying these
Fucking Things, Will You?
Sorry, I got carried away for a while there.
Anyways, I don't believe for a second that Mat's ring is the
Tamyrlin's, but I thought it was an interesting enough idea to put out
there. Please feel free to support/destroy this Looney Theory as you
wish.
Peace favor your sword,
Brian

That's hillarious! As for Matt's ring, that's not that looney, I
don't think. I kinda like the theory. Who knows?

[Jeroen Geilman]

Maybe, but one hell of a story !

Thanks

Post by moleman
"Fucking A" exclaimed Olver.

YES !

Post by moleman
"Where does he pick up language like that?!" muttered Mat.

LOL

Personally, I doubt it - my guess would be that the RotT is the source
for the AS's serpent rings - i.e. it is the original Great Serpent.

J.

[AcornArmy]

Post by Jeroen Geilman
Personally, I doubt it - my guess would be that the RotT is the source
for the AS's serpent rings - i.e. it is the original Great Serpent.
J.

My guess is that the Ring of Tamyrlin is that stone ring ter'angreal that
Verin gave Egwene, lo these many years ago. I've thought that thing was the
RoT since the first time we ever saw it, way back in... The Great Hunt, I
think? Sure, it could just be a training ter'angreal for Dreamers, but it's
curvy and twisty(and it's all Moebius stripped-out, with only one side) and
doesn't need channeling, so I like it and I'm calling it the Ring of
Tamyrlin until I see evidence otherwise. Maybe Tamyrlin had really strong
hands.

Hey, what spins 'round and 'round, eternally taking off clothes without
ever getting naked? A Moebius Stripper.

I'm tired, be gentle.

[moleman]

Post by Jeroen Geilman
Maybe, but one hell of a story !
Thanks

Post by moleman
"Fucking A" exclaimed Olver.

YES !

Post by moleman
"Where does he pick up language like that?!" muttered Mat.

LOL
Personally, I doubt it - my guess would be that the RotT is the source
for the AS's serpent rings - i.e. it is the original Great Serpent.
J.

Hey, thanks for the compliments. It's a small pet peeve compared to
the baths, the sniffs, and all the other ridiculous contrivances
Jordan has continued to pound at us, but Mat's utter blindness in
where Olver is getting his "education" annoys the hell out of me. I
always think of the movie "A Christmas Story", where Ralphie rats out
a friend because he doesn't want to admit he heard "Fuck" from his old
man 20 times a day. Mat being one of the characters I still like, it
pisses me off that he's so infuriatingly stupid in this one area.

I like your idea regarding the RotT much better than mine. Much more
logical; like I said, the idea came to me as I was reading the thread
(it was late, I had beer, mind was spinning in odd ways) and I just
wanted to get some reaction. Now, I'm waiting for the revelation that
Tam al'Thor is actually the Tamyrlin, who never died, and lays low
gently guiding the world toward its next stage in evolution. Looney
Theories - I'm full of 'em (or full of *it*, as the case may be).

Peace,

Brian

[Jeroen Geilman]

Post by moleman
Hey, thanks for the compliments. It's a small pet peeve compared to
the baths, the sniffs, and all the other ridiculous contrivances
Jordan has continued to pound at us, but Mat's utter blindness in
where Olver is getting his "education" annoys the hell out of me. I
always think of the movie "A Christmas Story", where Ralphie rats out
a friend because he doesn't want to admit he heard "Fuck" from his old
man 20 times a day. Mat being one of the characters I still like, it
pisses me off that he's so infuriatingly stupid in this one area.

Well - some people never wake up from the shiny pink dream ;-)

Post by moleman
I like your idea regarding the RotT much better than mine. Much more
logical; like I said, the idea came to me as I was reading the thread
(it was late, I had beer, mind was spinning in odd ways) and I just
wanted to get some reaction. Now, I'm waiting for the revelation that
Tam al'Thor is actually the Tamyrlin, who never died, and lays low
gently guiding the world toward its next stage in evolution. Looney
Theories - I'm full of 'em (or full of *it*, as the case may be).

You'll have to try a lot harder to be as full of it as Jordan, though...

For ANY definition of "it".

J.

[Ryan don't call me gunga MacIntosh]

Post by Francis Kahoy
First time posting here. I checked the back threads, but this doesn't
seem to have been touched on yet. I wanted to ask people about their
thoughts on this.
---

It all sounds good to me. Hell, it's a better theory than my first
post. (Though I'd still like to know whats up with the mounted heros
at the end of TGH)

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Francis Kahoy
First time posting here. I checked the back threads, but this doesn't
seem to have been touched on yet. I wanted to ask people about their
thoughts on this.
---
Robert Jordan told us, through Lanfear, that there was another male
sa'angreal stronger than Callandor. Besides the male Choedan Kal. It
may even still exist.
"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She came closer and
he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far-
and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a
kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she
added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that
a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I
will not trust you yet with that."
At this point, Lanfear's already seen the male statue in Cairhein, so
that accounts for the one she knows still exists. The other male
sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor may have been lost during the
War of Power or more likely the Breaking. Or Jordan may yet pull out
of his sleeve.
The question is, if it still exists, where is it? There are a few
clues. First of all, it's a good bet that it was this sa'angreal, and
not Callandor, that Lews Therin used to seal the Bore. Since he was
bereft of female channelers, linking for additional power (not to
mention precision) was impossible despite his Hundred Companions.
Therefore Lews Therin would have essentially had to do it all alone,
the Companions and non-channellers with him there solely to keep the
bad guys off his back while he did so. It would have made sense under
such circumstances to use the most powerful and stable sa'angreal he
had access to. Callandor being the weaker and more dangerous, and the
CK being unavailable, that leaves the one Lanfear alluded to.
Consider then that if it was the sa'angreal Lews Therin used to seal
the Bore, and given that he and the Hundred Companions went mad on the
spot, it would have been left someplace where Mr. Moridin may
eventually get his hands on it. Also of note is the fact that LTT
killed himself by drawing to much of the Power. Which means that he
wasn't using a sa'angreal (which would have protected him with its
buffer) when he died. Ergo, he'd lost sometime between the Strike and
his suicide.
So where is it?

It should still be at Shayol Ghul!