Why didn't Moridin just kill Rand when he was fighting Sammael?

[Galad Damodred]

What were Moridin's plans that he mentioned? Sammael would have killed
Rand had it not been for Moridin saving his life. Yet later in the
books it is revealed that Moridin wants to kill Rand himself. Well
hello, he had the perfect opportunity, why did he not take it?

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Galad Damodred
What were Moridin's plans that he mentioned? Sammael would have killed
Rand had it not been for Moridin saving his life. Yet later in the
books it is revealed that Moridin wants to kill Rand himself. Well
hello, he had the perfect opportunity, why did he not take it?

Because he believes Rand must be killed at the final battle. I think
that his plans involve weakening Rand before it, not destroying him.

[Galad Damodred]

Post by j***@gmail.com
Because he believes Rand must be killed at the final battle. I think
that his plans involve weakening Rand before it, not destroying him.

I would have thought saving him from Sammael would have strengthed and
not weakend Rand!

[Luc Habert]

Post by Galad Damodred
What were Moridin's plans that he mentioned? Sammael would have killed
Rand had it not been for Moridin saving his life. Yet later in the
books it is revealed that Moridin wants to kill Rand himself. Well
hello, he had the perfect opportunity, why did he not take it?

The Dark One's orders were to leave Rand alone, probably because he still
hoped he could fall to the dark side. He only changed his mind when it
appeared that Rand intented to cleanse Saidin.

[Galad Damodred]

On Apr 30, 9:41 am, ***@normalesup.org (Luc > The Dark
One's orders were to leave Rand alone, probably because he still

Post by Luc Habert
hoped he could fall to the dark side. He only changed his mind when it
appeared that Rand intented to cleanse Saidin.

This is nonsense. If this was the case then all the foresaken would
not have been trying to kill Rand from book 1.

[Brinner]

Post by Luc Habert
One's orders were to leave Rand alone, probably because he still

Post by Luc Habert
hoped he could fall to the dark side. He only changed his mind when it
appeared that Rand intented to cleanse Saidin.

This is nonsense. If this was the case then all the foresaken would
not have been trying to kill Rand from book 1.

They were all specifically ordered not to kill him, except in self
defence.

Name a specific example of a FS coming after Rand.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
They were all specifically ordered not to kill him, except in self
defence.
Name a specific example of a FS coming after Rand.

Agreed no forsaken tried to come after Rand but they surely didn't
just run away when Rand came chasing after them. All the foresaken
would have had to do was to travel to shayol ghul and Rand would have
followed them there. Instead when Rand came after them they tried to
kill him. You can't argue that.

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
They were all specifically ordered not to kill him, except in self
defence.
Name a specific example of a FS coming after Rand.

Agreed no forsaken tried to come after Rand but they surely didn't
just run away when Rand came chasing after them. All the foresaken
would have had to do was to travel to shayol ghul and Rand would have
followed them there. Instead when Rand came after them they tried to
kill him. You can't argue that.

As I said, they were ordered not to kill him, except in self defence.
There was nothing the would have liked more than to kill him though as
they didn't wanted him turned to their side and put over them.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
As I said, they were ordered not to kill him, except in self defence.
There was nothing the would have liked more than to kill him though as
they didn't wanted him turned to their side and put over them.

If the reasoning is the DO wanted Rand to be his top lieutenant then
why have there been so many other attempts on his life?

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
As I said, they were ordered not to kill him, except in self defence.
There was nothing the would have liked more than to kill him though as
they didn't wanted him turned to their side and put over them.

If the reasoning is the DO wanted Rand to be his top lieutenant then
why have there been so many other attempts on his life?

Up until he cleansed Saidan, what attempts?

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
Up until he cleansed Saidan, what attempts?

Umm, trollocs, mydraal, dark friends, gray men ...

Why do you think he has a hundred maidens guarding him?

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
Up until he cleansed Saidan, what attempts?

Umm, trollocs, mydraal, dark friends, gray men ...
Why do you think he has a hundred maidens guarding him?

I'll say this again. What attempts?

The Trollocs sent into the Two Rivers? Sent to capture the boys by
Padan Fain.

The Gray Man killed by Taim? Sent by Taim to make himself look good.

A specific example?

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
The Gray Man killed by Taim? Sent by Taim to make himself look good.

The Gray man was sent in by Taim?

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 1 May 2008 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT) -
there was this guy, or something, called Galad Damodred

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
The Gray Man killed by Taim? Sent by Taim to make himself look good.

The Gray man was sent in by Taim?

Gray man? Where? *looks around*



C&J

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
The Gray Man killed by Taim? Sent by Taim to make himself look good.

The Gray man was sent in by Taim?

Yes. So Taim would kill him and thus ingratiate himself with Rand.

Logic, its great.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
Yes. So Taim would kill him and thus ingratiate himself with Rand.
Logic, its great.

Site?

[Brinner]

Post by Brinner
Yes. So Taim would kill him and thus ingratiate himself with Rand.
Logic, its great.

Site?

www.logic.com

Will that do.

Or you could wiki the word logic and learn what it means.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
www.logic.com
Will that do.
Or you could wiki the word logic and learn what it means.

G'day Miss Dumbass. Let me rephrase that for you since English is not
your first language. Give me a site for when Taim sent the Gray men.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
www.logic.com
Will that do.
Or you could wiki the word logic and learn what it means.

G'day Miss Dumbass. Let me rephrase that for you since English is not
your first language. Give me a site for when Taim sent the Gray men.

The word you are looking for is 'cite' (short for citation), rather
than 'site' (a location).

I can cite a site with quite a sight.

scott

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Scott Lurndal
The word you are looking for is 'cite' (short for citation), rather
than 'site' (a location).
I can cite a site with quite a sight.

Yes, let the Lord of Chaos rule!

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:51:15 -0700 (PDT)
- there was this guy, or something, called Galad Damodred

Post by Galad Damodred
What were Moridin's plans that he mentioned? Sammael would have killed
Rand had it not been for Moridin saving his life. Yet later in the
books it is revealed that Moridin wants to kill Rand himself. Well
hello, he had the perfect opportunity, why did he not take it?

I think he's playing both sides. It's just one of many reasons I still
think it will be stupid and boring if he turns out to be Ishamael
reborn.




C&J

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Chucky & Janica
I think he's playing both sides. It's just one of many reasons I still
think it will be stupid and boring if he turns out to be Ishamael
reborn.

Hmm interesting. I don't buy the "the forsaken were ordered not to
kill Rand" story. There have been numerous attempts on Rand's life
through trollocs, dark friends, mydraal and gray men.

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Chucky & Janica
I think he's playing both sides. It's just one of many reasons I still
think it will be stupid and boring if he turns out to be Ishamael
reborn.

Hmm interesting. I don't buy the "the forsaken were ordered not to
kill Rand" story. There have been numerous attempts on Rand's life
through trollocs, dark friends, mydraal and gray men.

Nope, there were no direct attempts.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
Nope, there were no direct attempts.

Dude, are you sure you're reading the Wheel of Time and not something
else? ;-)

Here are a number of instances when gray men (specialist hired
assassins of the DO) had tried to kill Rand.

Gray Men are men (and rarely women) who have given their souls to the
Dark One. As such, they are almost unnoticeable. They are used as
assassins because they can sneak up on their victims without being
detected.

TGH,Ch9 - A Gray Man, admitted to Fal Dara by Ingtar, attempts to
assassinate Rand. He misses, wounding Siuan Sanche and killing another
man.
TGH,Ch46 - Ingtar acknowledges admitting the Gray Man that tried to
kill Rand.
TDR,Ch3 - Boys resembling Rand on Almoth Plain have been mysteriously
murdered, probably by Gray Men.
TSR,Ch9 - A Gray Man attacks Rand as he talks with Lanfear.
TSR,Ch10 - Three more Gray Men who were part of the attack on Rand
were killed by the Aiel guards.
TSR,Ch50 - After the Trolloc and Draghkar attack, Rhuarc orders a
guard for Rand because the Soulless may come next.
LoC,Ch20 - Aviendha tells Rand that Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man
standing by his side with a dagger to his throat, but Rand did not see
him. Rand thinks that this means a Gray Man.
LoC,Ch28 - A Gray Man attacks Rand in the Royal Palace but Mazrim Taim
destroys it. Later, Fain is furious when he hears about the attack. He
wants Rand for himself.
LoC,Ch42 - Taim tells Rand that he has not been in Caemlyn since the
day he saved Rand from the Gray Man.

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/creatures/gray_man.html

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
Nope, there were no direct attempts.

Dude, are you sure you're reading the Wheel of Time and not something
else? ;-)
Here are a number of instances when gray men (specialist hired
assassins of the DO) had tried to kill Rand.
Gray Men are men (and rarely women) who have given their souls to the
Dark One. As such, they are almost unnoticeable. They are used as
assassins because they can sneak up on their victims without being
detected.
TGH,Ch9 - A Gray Man, admitted to Fal Dara by Ingtar, attempts to
assassinate Rand. He misses, wounding Siuan Sanche and killing another
man.
TGH,Ch46 - Ingtar acknowledges admitting the Gray Man that tried to
kill Rand.
TDR,Ch3 - Boys resembling Rand on Almoth Plain have been mysteriously
murdered, probably by Gray Men.
TSR,Ch9 - A Gray Man attacks Rand as he talks with Lanfear.
TSR,Ch10 - Three more Gray Men who were part of the attack on Rand
were killed by the Aiel guards.
TSR,Ch50 - After the Trolloc and Draghkar attack, Rhuarc orders a
guard for Rand because the Soulless may come next.
LoC,Ch20 - Aviendha tells Rand that Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man
standing by his side with a dagger to his throat, but Rand did not see
him. Rand thinks that this means a Gray Man.
LoC,Ch28 - A Gray Man attacks Rand in the Royal Palace but Mazrim Taim
destroys it. Later, Fain is furious when he hears about the attack. He
wants Rand for himself.
LoC,Ch42 - Taim tells Rand that he has not been in Caemlyn since the
day he saved Rand from the Gray Man.
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/creatures/gray_man.html

Every single one of these was a distraction or a trick by a FS to get
him to come after him. Not one was an actual attempt.

Think about it logically:

If the FS were not under orders to kill Rand and knew enough about his
whereabouts to send Trollocs or what not, they could have travelled
Balefired and then left. If they had done this they would have been
serious trouble with the DO.

So what to do when you want Rand dead??? Hmmmmm, send a few Trollocs
or a Draghkar or a Gray who you know 100% he can handle and hope he
comes after you, that way you can innocently claim self defence.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

I am. Are you? :-P

Post by Brinner
If the FS were not under orders to kill Rand and knew enough about his
whereabouts to send Trollocs or what not, they could have travelled
Balefired and then left. If they had done this they would have been
serious trouble with the DO.

No they could not. Why? Because in the early stages they were not
strong enough. All they could do was send their minions. As they grew
stronger so did Rand which counter balanced any such planned attacks
on their part.

Post by Brinner
So what to do when you want Rand dead??? Hmmmmm, send a few Trollocs
or a Draghkar or a Gray who you know 100% he can handle and hope he
comes after you, that way you can innocently claim self defence.

100%? The first one almost killed Rand! It only just missed and ended
up hurting Siuan. All further attempts have come very close and in
fact Rand has just snuck by.

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred
I am. Are you? :-P

Post by Brinner
If the FS were not under orders to kill Rand and knew enough about his
whereabouts to send Trollocs or what not, they could have travelled
Balefired and then left. If they had done this they would have been
serious trouble with the DO.

No they could not. Why? Because in the early stages they were not
strong enough. All they could do was send their minions. As they grew
stronger so did Rand which counter balanced any such planned attacks
on their part.

Grew stronger? What are you talking about? The Foresaken were never
weaker, just locked away for millenia. As soon as they escaped from
Shayol Gul in TEOTW they were as strong as they were when they were
imprisioned.

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
So what to do when you want Rand dead??? Hmmmmm, send a few Trollocs
or a Draghkar or a Gray who you know 100% he can handle and hope he
comes after you, that way you can innocently claim self defence.

100%? The first one almost killed Rand! It only just missed and ended
up hurting Siuan. All further attempts have come very close and in
fact Rand has just snuck by.

100% certain they would fail. Use that logic I mentioned earlier. Rand
is the single most powerful channeler the world has ever seen. If you
want to kill him you do not send Trollocs or any other Shadowspawn. If
you want to draw him into attacking you, you pretend to make an
attempt on your life. Or in the case of when he was attacked in the
Aeil waste you make try to make him attack another FS for your own
game, i.e. Lanfear made Rand think Sammael was attacking.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
Grew stronger? What are you talking about? The Foresaken were never
weaker, just locked away for millenia. As soon as they escaped from
Shayol Gul in TEOTW they were as strong as they were when they were
imprisioned.

Rubbish. If they were as strong as they ever were they should have
been able to overpower an inexperienced Rand at the end of TEOTW. They
were definitely weak when they came out of the bore and gradually got
their strength back.

Post by Brinner
100% certain they would fail. Use that logic I mentioned earlier. Rand
is the single most powerful channeler the world has ever seen. If you
want to kill him you do not send Trollocs or any other Shadowspawn. If
you want to draw him into attacking you, you pretend to make an
attempt on your life. Or in the case of when he was attacked in the
Aeil waste you make try to make him attack another FS for your own
game, i.e. Lanfear made Rand think Sammael was attacking.

You're talking through your arse mate.100% certain? WTF! If they were
planned attacks then they were stupid ones as even a channeler, as
strong as he is, only needs one arrow to end his life. These were
genuine attempts on Rand's life and is a contradiction that is not
explained properly in the book.

For the record Rand is only marginally stronger than most of the
foresaken.

From TWOT encyclopedia:

When Rand wakes, Dashiva holds nearly as much of the One Power as Rand
can. Dashiva accompanies Rand on his strike at Illian. When Rand
announces that Sammael is dead Dashiva sighs loudly with relief.
(ACoS,Ch41)

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
Grew stronger? What are you talking about? The Foresaken were never
weaker, just locked away for millenia. As soon as they escaped from
Shayol Gul in TEOTW they were as strong as they were when they were
imprisioned.

Rubbish. If they were as strong as they ever were they should have
been able to overpower an inexperienced Rand at the end of TEOTW. They
were definitely weak when they came out of the bore and gradually got
their strength back.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense.

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
100% certain they would fail. Use that logic I mentioned earlier. Rand
is the single most powerful channeler the world has ever seen. If you
want to kill him you do not send Trollocs or any other Shadowspawn. If
you want to draw him into attacking you, you pretend to make an
attempt on your life. Or in the case of when he was attacked in the
Aeil waste you make try to make him attack another FS for your own
game, i.e. Lanfear made Rand think Sammael was attacking.

You're talking through your arse mate.100% certain? WTF! If they were
planned attacks then they were stupid ones as even a channeler, as
strong as he is, only needs one arrow to end his life. These were
genuine attempts on Rand's life and is a contradiction that is not
explained properly in the book.
For the record Rand is only marginally stronger than most of the
foresaken.
When Rand wakes, Dashiva holds nearly as much of the One Power as Rand
can. Dashiva accompanies Rand on his strike at Illian. When Rand
announces that Sammael is dead Dashiva sighs loudly with relief.
(ACoS,Ch41)

Right, I am done with this now. Personal insults are where I draw the
line. I am not "talking throught my arse" as you think. I was putting
forward an opionion and backing it up. You have stated many times you
want proper discussion in here but seem incapable of it.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
Right, I am done with this now. Personal insults are where I draw the
line. I am not "talking throught my arse" as you think. I was putting
forward an opionion and backing it up. You have stated many times you
want proper discussion in here but seem incapable of it.

I want a fight! A fight like the good old days! Fight I says fight
Missy! Fight!

[vecki]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
Grew stronger? What are you talking about? The Foresaken were never
weaker, just locked away for millenia. As soon as they escaped from
Shayol Gul in TEOTW they were as strong as they were when they were
imprisioned.

Rubbish. If they were as strong as they ever were they should have
been able to overpower an inexperienced Rand at the end of TEOTW. They
were definitely weak when they came out of the bore and gradually got
their strength back.

Balderdash. (I always wanted to use that word).

As of EoTW, only Ishy, Aginor and Balthamel had escaped the Bore.
Ishy was never completely imprisoned and A + B had been trapped close
enough to the surface that they felt the effects of the turning of the
Wheel, and had aged about 3,000 years. When they escaped they were at
full strength. Rand was lucky in that 1) there were others there to
distract them (or in Balthamel's case, turn him into a giant
mushroom), and 2), he got very lucky and managed to take out Aginor's
connection to the source.

The others escaped later, at their full strength, and began gathering
nations to them. Aside from Lanfear, who busied herself trying to
seduce Rand.

~*~
vecki

[Brinner]

Post by vecki

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
Grew stronger? What are you talking about? The Foresaken were never
weaker, just locked away for millenia. As soon as they escaped from
Shayol Gul in TEOTW they were as strong as they were when they were
imprisioned.

Rubbish. If they were as strong as they ever were they should have
been able to overpower an inexperienced Rand at the end of TEOTW. They
were definitely weak when they came out of the bore and gradually got
their strength back.

Balderdash. (I always wanted to use that word).

Thanks for entering this discussion with some sense.

Post by vecki
As of EoTW, only Ishy, Aginor and Balthamel had escaped the Bore.
Ishy was never completely imprisoned and A + B had been trapped close
enough to the surface that they felt the effects of the turning of the
Wheel, and had aged about 3,000 years. When they escaped they were at
full strength. Rand was lucky in that 1) there were others there to
distract them (or in Balthamel's case, turn him into a giant
mushroom), and 2), he got very lucky and managed to take out Aginor's
connection to the source.

Exactly right.

Post by vecki
The others escaped later, at their full strength, and began gathering
nations to them. Aside from Lanfear, who busied herself trying to
seduce Rand.

Agree completely.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by vecki
Balderdash. (I always wanted to use that word).
As of EoTW, only Ishy, Aginor and Balthamel had escaped the Bore.
Ishy was never completely imprisoned and A + B had been trapped close
enough to the surface that they felt the effects of the turning of the
Wheel, and had aged about 3,000 years. When they escaped they were at
full strength. Rand was lucky in that 1) there were others there to
distract them (or in Balthamel's case, turn him into a giant
mushroom), and 2), he got very lucky and managed to take out Aginor's
connection to the source.

3 Forsaken at FULL STRENGTH could not take out Moiraine, Rand with
ZERO experience and Egwene with -10 experience? Balderdash yourself!

Post by vecki
The others escaped later, at their full strength, and began gathering
nations to them. Aside from Lanfear, who busied herself trying to
seduce Rand.

Lanfear is the only excuse here. Her story is quite well written and
given some depth as to her actions.

[vecki]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by vecki
Balderdash. (I always wanted to use that word).
As of EoTW, only Ishy, Aginor and Balthamel had escaped the Bore.
Ishy was never completely imprisoned and A + B had been trapped close
enough to the surface that they felt the effects of the turning of the
Wheel, and had aged about 3,000 years. When they escaped they were at
full strength. Rand was lucky in that 1) there were others there to
distract them (or in Balthamel's case, turn him into a giant
mushroom), and 2), he got very lucky and managed to take out Aginor's
connection to the source.

3 Forsaken at FULL STRENGTH could not take out Moiraine, Rand with
ZERO experience and Egwene with -10 experience? Balderdash yourself!

Moiraine surprised Aginor and held him for a while, The Green Man
turned Balthamel into the aforementioned mushroom. Ishy didn't show
up in this scene until later.

Rand had already started channelling (Bela refresher, hitting a
Trolloc on Domon's boat, Four Kings) so his strength likely had
already started climbing, and lets not forget he's the most powerful
channeller EVER so he could very well already be stronger than A / B
(he never faced both at once, only a slightly (!) burned and otherwise
wounded Aginor (perhaps a little difficult to concentrate?) and a not-
quite-in-this-world Ishy - hence the not being killed Ishy).

That and they'd been so bloody cocky that they didn't just come out
firing the way they should have if they really wanted to wipe out Rand
& co at tEotW. Too busy gloating to notice Moiraine embrace saidar
(much harder to shield someone once they've already started
channelling).

~*~
vecki

[Galad Damodred]

Post by vecki
Moiraine surprised Aginor and held him for a while, The Green Man
turned Balthamel into the aforementioned mushroom. Ishy didn't show
up in this scene until later.
Rand had already started channelling (Bela refresher, hitting a
Trolloc on Domon's boat, Four Kings) so his strength likely had
already started climbing, and lets not forget he's the most powerful
channeller EVER so he could very well already be stronger than A / B
(he never faced both at once, only a slightly (!) burned and otherwise
wounded Aginor (perhaps a little difficult to concentrate?) and a not-
quite-in-this-world Ishy - hence the not being killed Ishy).
That and they'd been so bloody cocky that they didn't just come out
firing the way they should have if they really wanted to wipe out Rand
& co at tEotW. Too busy gloating to notice Moiraine embrace saidar
(much harder to shield someone once they've already started
channelling).

Is Rand really the most powerful channeler ever? According to
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/characters/hist/ltt.html

TEotW,Ch50 - Aginor was close behind Ishamael and Lews Therin in
strength.

This indicates that Rand and Ishamael would be about the same and
Aginor close behind:

When Rand wakes, Dashiva holds nearly as much of the One Power as Rand
can. Dashiva accompanies Rand on his strike at Illian. When Rand
announces that Sammael is dead Dashiva sighs loudly with relief.
(ACoS,Ch41)

Either of the two at full strength should have been able to take out
Rand when Rand hardly had any experience. Hence my argument that
neither were at full strength from the beginning.

Ok forget about everything I've written. Just think about this
logically. The Forsaken are the most powerful and feared of all
channelers out there. At the end of ETOTW Rand took on 3 of them. The
experience alone of these legends should have been enough to take Rand
out. Moirraine who is a weakling in the OP compared to the likes of
Egwene and Nynaeve was able to shield Aginor. Rand was able to break
free of three sisters linked together holding his shield.

It's simple. If Aginor, Ishy and Balthamel were at full power as they
came out of the bore, the book would have ended then and there.

[vecki]

Post by vecki
Moiraine surprised Aginor and held him for a while, The Green Man
turned Balthamel into the aforementioned mushroom.  Ishy didn't show
up in this scene until later.
Rand had already started channelling (Bela refresher, hitting a
Trolloc on Domon's boat, Four Kings) so his strength likely had
already started climbing, and lets not forget he's the most powerful
channeller EVER so he could very well already be stronger than A / B
(he never faced both at once, only a slightly (!) burned and otherwise
wounded Aginor (perhaps a little difficult to concentrate?) and a not-
quite-in-this-world Ishy - hence the not being killed Ishy).
That and they'd been so bloody cocky that they didn't just come out
firing the way they should have if they really wanted to wipe out Rand
& co at tEotW.  Too busy gloating to notice Moiraine embrace saidar
(much harder to shield someone once they've already started
channelling).

Is Rand really the most powerful channeler ever? According tohttp://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/characters/hist/ltt.html
TEotW,Ch50 - Aginor was close behind Ishamael and Lews Therin in
strength.
This indicates that Rand and Ishamael would be about the same and

That would mean that LTT was the most powerful channeler EVER. Hmm,
Rand is a rebirth of LTT. Gee, I wonder if that means that Rand is
therefore the most powerful channeler EVER.

When Rand wakes, Dashiva holds nearly as much of the One Power as Rand
can. Dashiva accompanies Rand on his strike at Illian. When Rand
announces that Sammael is dead Dashiva sighs loudly with relief.
(ACoS,Ch41)

NEARLY as much. Is it 99%? 95%? 90%? 75%? It's still less than
Rand.

Either of the two at full strength should have been able to take out
Rand when Rand hardly had any experience. Hence my argument that
neither were at full strength from the beginning.

Perhaps if they were working together - not a talent the Forsaken are
known for - rather than going "mmmm... Power" and "mwahahahahahaha I
am free"

Ok forget about everything I've written. Just think about this
logically. The Forsaken are the most powerful and feared of all
channelers out there. At the end of ETOTW Rand took on 3 of them. The
experience alone of these legends should have been enough to take Rand
out. Moirraine who is a weakling in the OP compared to the likes of
Egwene and Nynaeve was able to shield Aginor.

Moiraine didn't shield him, she Set Him On Fire. And until the
appearance of Nyn, Eg and El she's one of the more powerful AS out
there (Verin in TGH says that Moiraine is one of the few who'd be able
to handle the mega sa'angreal on Tremalking). Granted not much
compared to the Forsaken but she took Aginor by surprise. She didn't
hold him for long, but it was enough to perhaps weaken him a bit.
Balthamel, as previously mentioned several times, fell to the Green
Man pretty quickly.

Rand was able to break

free of three sisters linked together holding his shield.
It's simple. If Aginor, Ishy and Balthamel were at full power as they
came out of the bore, the book would have ended then and there.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

They weren't all there at once, like I said earlier, and Rand was not
alone. Ishy also wanted to use/turn Rand rather than kill him. It
wasn't until TDR that he decided Rand could not be turned and
therefore he would kill him.

AND, they fell victim to Bad-Guy-Overconfidence-itis, so bloody cocky
that they could take them all out, that they were too busy gloating
instead of simply obliterating the lot of them.

But if that's not enough for you - ta'veren.


~*~
vecki

[Galad Damodred]

That would mean that LTT was the most powerful channeler EVER.  Hmm,
Rand is a rebirth of LTT.  Gee, I wonder if that means that Rand is
therefore the most powerful channeler EVER.

The point I was making, which you overlooked quite conveniently, is
that Ishy is at the same power level as Rand while Aginor is close
behind.

NEARLY as much.  Is it 99%?  95%?  90%?  75%?  It's still less than
Rand.

90% plus.

Perhaps if they were working together - not a talent the Forsaken are
known for - rather than going "mmmm... Power" and "mwahahahahahaha I
am free"

Yes, which is where I have a problem with the plot. For such a complex
world that RJ has created you'd think he'd have smarter baddies hence
the subject of this thread. Why didn't Moridin just kill Rand when he
was fighting Sammael? Ok, if he didn't want to kill him Rand was as
vulnerable as you'd ever find him (hadn't eaten for two days and was
hanging off a ledge or something). Moridin could have quite easily
captured Rand.

But if that's not enough for you - ta'veren.

LOL, I was waiting for this. Seems to be an excuse for just about
anything in TWOT. :-(

[vecki]

Post by Galad Damodred

That would mean that LTT was the most powerful channeler EVER.  Hmm,
Rand is a rebirth of LTT.  Gee, I wonder if that means that Rand is
therefore the most powerful channeler EVER.

The point I was making, which you overlooked quite conveniently, is
that Ishy is at the same power level as Rand while Aginor is close
behind.

Ishy wasn't completely in the world as we know it. Like trying to
channel to affect the real world through TAR, I'd imagine it'd be
tough to channel to the level you would expect when you're still
halfway in the Bore.

Also, Forsaken at various points along the way think that Ishy was at
least part mad even before their imprisonment in the Bore, and that he
seems no saner as Moridin.

Post by Galad Damodred

NEARLY as much.  Is it 99%?  95%?  90%?  75%?  It's still less than
Rand.

90% plus.

Perhaps if they were working together - not a talent the Forsaken are
known for - rather than going "mmmm... Power" and "mwahahahahahaha I
am free"

Yes, which is where I have a problem with the plot. For such a complex
world that RJ has created you'd think he'd have smarter baddies hence
the subject of this thread. Why didn't Moridin just kill Rand when he
was fighting Sammael? Ok, if he didn't want to kill him Rand was as
vulnerable as you'd ever find him (hadn't eaten for two days and was
hanging off a ledge or something). Moridin could have quite easily
captured Rand.

It's a problem that I think Graendal refers to in aCoS, something
along the lines of "we behave as if this is the world we knew, and we
are dying." They're still human, for all their protestations that
they are somehow more, they show themselves to be no better/smarter
than anyone else. Having super-powers doesn't make these people any
more intelligent - just look at the current crop of Power wielders.

Oh, and perhaps Moridin could have captured Rand, but in a Lord of
Chaos ruling kinda way, he perhaps could have seen it as more
beneficial to let Rand continue running around. Having him loose
seems to cause as much chaos as he manages to resolve.

~*~
vecki

[Tim Bruening]

Post by vecki

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by vecki
Balderdash. (I always wanted to use that word).
As of EoTW, only Ishy, Aginor and Balthamel had escaped the Bore.
Ishy was never completely imprisoned and A + B had been trapped close
enough to the surface that they felt the effects of the turning of the
Wheel, and had aged about 3,000 years. When they escaped they were at
full strength. Rand was lucky in that 1) there were others there to
distract them (or in Balthamel's case, turn him into a giant
mushroom), and 2), he got very lucky and managed to take out Aginor's
connection to the source.

3 Forsaken at FULL STRENGTH could not take out Moiraine, Rand with
ZERO experience and Egwene with -10 experience? Balderdash yourself!

Moiraine surprised Aginor and held him for a while, The Green Man
turned Balthamel into the aforementioned mushroom. Ishy didn't show
up in this scene until later.
Rand had already started channelling (Bela refresher, hitting a
Trolloc on Domon's boat, Four Kings) so his strength likely had
already started climbing, and lets not forget he's the most powerful
channeller EVER so he could very well already be stronger than A / B
(he never faced both at once, only a slightly (!) burned and otherwise
wounded Aginor (perhaps a little difficult to concentrate?) and a not-
quite-in-this-world Ishy - hence the not being killed Ishy).

But Rand was still far from his full strength.

Post by vecki
That and they'd been so bloody cocky that they didn't just come out
firing the way they should have if they really wanted to wipe out Rand
& co at tEotW. Too busy gloating to notice Moiraine embrace saidar
(much harder to shield someone once they've already started
channelling).
~*~
vecki

[Tim Bruening]

Post by vecki

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
Grew stronger? What are you talking about? The Foresaken were never
weaker, just locked away for millenia. As soon as they escaped from
Shayol Gul in TEOTW they were as strong as they were when they were
imprisioned.

Rubbish. If they were as strong as they ever were they should have
been able to overpower an inexperienced Rand at the end of TEOTW. They
were definitely weak when they came out of the bore and gradually got
their strength back.

Balderdash. (I always wanted to use that word).

Thanks for entering this discussion with some sense.

Post by vecki
As of EoTW, only Ishy, Aginor and Balthamel had escaped the Bore.
Ishy was never completely imprisoned and A + B had been trapped close
enough to the surface that they felt the effects of the turning of the
Wheel, and had aged about 3,000 years. When they escaped they were at
full strength. Rand was lucky in that 1) there were others there to
distract them (or in Balthamel's case, turn him into a giant
mushroom), and 2), he got very lucky and managed to take out Aginor's
connection to the source.

Exactly right.

Post by vecki
The others escaped later, at their full strength, and began gathering
nations to them. Aside from Lanfear, who busied herself trying to
seduce Rand.

For the first 5 books of the series, I had thought that Rand might try
to seduce Lanfear away from the Shadow. He could have said to her "You
say you love me? Then prove it, by serving the Light wholeheartedly".

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
Grew stronger? What are you talking about? The Foresaken were never
weaker, just locked away for millenia. As soon as they escaped from
Shayol Gul in TEOTW they were as strong as they were when they were
imprisioned.

Rubbish. If they were as strong as they ever were they should have
been able to overpower an inexperienced Rand at the end of TEOTW. They
were definitely weak when they came out of the bore and gradually got
their strength back.

Post by Brinner
100% certain they would fail. Use that logic I mentioned earlier. Rand
is the single most powerful channeler the world has ever seen. If you
want to kill him you do not send Trollocs or any other Shadowspawn. If
you want to draw him into attacking you, you pretend to make an
attempt on your life. Or in the case of when he was attacked in the
Aeil waste you make try to make him attack another FS for your own
game, i.e. Lanfear made Rand think Sammael was attacking.

You're talking through your arse mate.100% certain? WTF! If they were
planned attacks then they were stupid ones as even a channeler, as
strong as he is, only needs one arrow to end his life. These were
genuine attempts on Rand's life and is a contradiction that is not
explained properly in the book.

If you want to learn something read this:

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.10_kill-rand.html

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.10_kill-ran...
Brinner

I am glad you posted this, because this is the exact part in the FAQ I
went looking for when I thought about the stupidity of the don't kill
Rand business. It makes NO SENSE. There have been numerous attempts on
Rand's life THROUGHOUT the book. I will post for your benefit, since
you don't read enough, all the attempts on Rand's life by the gray
men ... purely as an example. A lot of this happened BEFORE Taim
showed up (so there goes your Taim theory):

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/creatures/gray_man.html

* TGH,Ch9 - A Gray Man, admitted to Fal Dara by Ingtar, attempts
to assassinate Rand. He misses, wounding Siuan Sanche and killing
another man.
* TGH,Ch46 - Ingtar acknowledges admitting the Gray Man that tried
to kill Rand.
* TDR,Ch3 - Boys resembling Rand on Almoth Plain have been
mysteriously murdered, probably by Gray Men.

* TSR,Ch9 - A Gray Man attacks Rand as he talks with Lanfear.
* TSR,Ch10 - Three more Gray Men who were part of the attack on
Rand were killed by the Aiel guards.

* TSR,Ch50 - After the Trolloc and Draghkar attack, Rhuarc orders
a guard for Rand because the Soulless may come next.
* LoC,Ch3 - Rand warns Taim about Shadowspawn including Gray Men.

* LoC,Ch28 - A Gray Man attacks Rand in the Royal Palace but
Mazrim Taim destroys it. Later, Fain is furious when he hears about
the attack. He wants Rand for himself.

This is the first instant of Taim being involved with the gray man. So
there have been at least 3 attempts on Rand's life prior to Taim's
involvement.

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Tue, 6 May 2008 19:33:02 -0700 (PDT) -
there was this guy, or something, called Brinner

Post by Brinner

Post by Galad Damodred
No they could not. Why? Because in the early stages they were not
strong enough. All they could do was send their minions. As they grew
stronger so did Rand which counter balanced any such planned attacks
on their part.

Grew stronger? What are you talking about? The Foresaken were never
weaker, just locked away for millenia. As soon as they escaped from
Shayol Gul in TEOTW they were as strong as they were when they were
imprisioned.

I don't know, I thought Aginor and Balthamel were a bit fucked up.



C&J

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Brinner

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
Nope, there were no direct attempts.

Dude, are you sure you're reading the Wheel of Time and not something
else? ;-)
Here are a number of instances when gray men (specialist hired
assassins of the DO) had tried to kill Rand.
Gray Men are men (and rarely women) who have given their souls to the
Dark One. As such, they are almost unnoticeable. They are used as
assassins because they can sneak up on their victims without being
detected.
TGH,Ch9 - A Gray Man, admitted to Fal Dara by Ingtar, attempts to
assassinate Rand. He misses, wounding Siuan Sanche and killing another
man.
TGH,Ch46 - Ingtar acknowledges admitting the Gray Man that tried to
kill Rand.
TDR,Ch3 - Boys resembling Rand on Almoth Plain have been mysteriously
murdered, probably by Gray Men.
TSR,Ch9 - A Gray Man attacks Rand as he talks with Lanfear.
TSR,Ch10 - Three more Gray Men who were part of the attack on Rand
were killed by the Aiel guards.
TSR,Ch50 - After the Trolloc and Draghkar attack, Rhuarc orders a
guard for Rand because the Soulless may come next.
LoC,Ch20 - Aviendha tells Rand that Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man
standing by his side with a dagger to his throat, but Rand did not see
him. Rand thinks that this means a Gray Man.
LoC,Ch28 - A Gray Man attacks Rand in the Royal Palace but Mazrim Taim
destroys it. Later, Fain is furious when he hears about the attack. He
wants Rand for himself.
LoC,Ch42 - Taim tells Rand that he has not been in Caemlyn since the
day he saved Rand from the Gray Man.
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/creatures/gray_man.html

Every single one of these was a distraction or a trick by a FS to get
him to come after him. Not one was an actual attempt.
If the FS were not under orders to kill Rand and knew enough about his
whereabouts to send Trollocs or what not, they could have travelled
Balefired and then left. If they had done this they would have been
serious trouble with the DO.
So what to do when you want Rand dead??? Hmmmmm, send a few Trollocs
or a Draghkar or a Gray who you know 100% he can handle and hope he
comes after you, that way you can innocently claim self defence.

Use Illusion to make Fades, Trollocs, and DFs think you are some other
Forsaken, hoping that some will survive long enough to tell Rand that said
other Forsaken was responsible.

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:55:46 -0700 (PDT)
- there was this guy, or something, called Galad Damodred

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Chucky & Janica
I think he's playing both sides. It's just one of many reasons I still
think it will be stupid and boring if he turns out to be Ishamael
reborn.

Hmm interesting. I don't buy the "the forsaken were ordered not to
kill Rand" story. There have been numerous attempts on Rand's life
through trollocs, dark friends, mydraal and gray men.

I think it's entirely possible the Forsaken were told not to kill
Rand, because Ishamael (as Ba'alzamon) had philosophical ideas about
his ongoing role in the Pattern.

But I agree with you that I don't think they went out of their way not
to kill him. I think what makes Moridin an interesting character is
that he is pretty much the only "Forsaken" to interact with Rand in
any remotely normal way, without trying to do something in the "evil
bonehead mastermind" vein, and end up maybe-dying in the course of a
wild saidin-chase.





C&J

[vecki]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:51:15 -0700 (PDT)
- there was this guy, or something, called Galad Damodred

Post by Galad Damodred
What were Moridin's plans that he mentioned? Sammael would have killed
Rand had it not been for Moridin saving his life. Yet later in the
books it is revealed that Moridin wants to kill Rand himself. Well
hello, he had the perfect opportunity, why did he not take it?

I think he's playing both sides. It's just one of many reasons I still
think it will be stupid and boring if he turns out to be Ishamael
reborn.

Maybe he's Beidomon, or whatever that guy's name from TSR was. :-)
You know, the guy who helped Lanfear drill the Bore.

~*~
vecki

[Galad Damodred]

Post by vecki
Maybe he's Beidomon, or whatever that guy's name from TSR was. :-)
You know, the guy who helped Lanfear drill the Bore.

Huh? Ok you got me completely. I have no idea who you are referring
to. The only character I know that sounds like "Beidomon" is Bayle
Domon and he was a mere ship's captain.

Thanks for your post though. Need more people to start posting to get
things going here. Then we can have a good fight like the old days.

[vecki]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by vecki
Maybe he's Beidomon, or whatever that guy's name from TSR was. :-)
You know, the guy who helped Lanfear drill the Bore.

Huh? Ok you got me completely. I have no idea who you are referring
to. The only character I know that sounds like "Beidomon" is Bayle
Domon and he was a mere ship's captain.
Thanks for your post though. Need more people to start posting to get
things going here. Then we can have a good fight like the old days.

Ok, read the Aiel flashback sequence in TSR. Then we'll talk.

~*~
vecki

[steveo]

Post by vecki

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by vecki
Maybe he's Beidomon, or whatever that guy's name from TSR was. :-)
You know, the guy who helped Lanfear drill the Bore.

Huh? Ok you got me completely. I have no idea who you are referring
to. The only character I know that sounds like "Beidomon" is Bayle
Domon and he was a mere ship's captain.
Thanks for your post though. Need more people to start posting to get
things going here. Then we can have a good fight like the old days.

Ok, read the Aiel flashback sequence in TSR. Then we'll talk.

Or search "Strike at Shayol Ghul" and read the short story RJ wrote and used
to be at www.tor.com/shayol but is no longer. Important 'mythology' for
WOT.

steveo

[Galad Damodred]

Post by vecki
Ok, read the Aiel flashback sequence in TSR. Then we'll talk.

According to the FAQ Moridin is Ishamael. Also in wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishamael#Moridin

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Sat, 3 May 2008 21:03:01 -0700 (PDT) -
there was this guy, or something, called Galad Damodred

Post by vecki
Ok, read the Aiel flashback sequence in TSR. Then we'll talk.

Yes. And that theory is FUCKING GAY.




C&J

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Yes. And that theory is FUCKING GAY.

I agree, it doesn't make too much sense. Some of it does, other bits
are just plain stupid.

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by vecki
Maybe he's Beidomon, or whatever that guy's name from TSR was. :-)
You know, the guy who helped Lanfear drill the Bore.

Huh? Ok you got me completely. I have no idea who you are referring
to. The only character I know that sounds like "Beidomon" is Bayle
Domon and he was a mere ship's captain.
Thanks for your post though. Need more people to start posting to get
things going here. Then we can have a good fight like the old days.

There never were "fights" in the old days, just discussions.

Beidomon helped Lanfear open the Bore, you should really know that
sort of huge detail if you are going to have a proper discussion.

Brinner

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Brinner
There never were "fights" in the old days, just discussions.
Beidomon helped Lanfear open the Bore, you should really know that
sort of huge detail if you are going to have a proper discussion.

Well I'm starting one now cos I reckon you're a dumbass who doesn't
know what she's talking about.

[Brinner]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
There never were "fights" in the old days, just discussions.
Beidomon helped Lanfear open the Bore, you should really know that
sort of huge detail if you are going to have a proper discussion.

Well I'm starting one now cos I reckon you're a dumbass who doesn't
know what she's talking about

Idiot.

Brinner

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Tue, 6 May 2008 20:05:18 -0700 (PDT) -
there was this guy, or something, called Galad Damodred

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Brinner
There never were "fights" in the old days, just discussions.
Beidomon helped Lanfear open the Bore, you should really know that
sort of huge detail if you are going to have a proper discussion.

Well I'm starting one now cos I reckon you're a dumbass who doesn't
know what she's talking about.

Yeah, you tell her.



C&J

[Casey]

Guys, this is extensively discussed in the FAQ under "TPOD Attack"

In the beginning of the series the Forsaken were released individually
bu the DO was not strong. They each went their own way. Some of them
tried to kill Rand, starting in TEOTW. This culminates in a
conspiracy in TFOH involving four forsaken who try to kill Rand and
fail. Starting in LOC, the DO orders the forsaken not to kill Rand.

This order was still in place at the end of aCoS, when Moridin
baelfires the bejeeses out of Sammael.

The order may or may not have been repealed at the end of TPOD.

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Casey
Guys, this is extensively discussed in the FAQ under "TPOD Attack"
In the beginning of the series the Forsaken were released individually
bu the DO was not strong. They each went their own way. Some of them
tried to kill Rand, starting in TEOTW. This culminates in a
conspiracy in TFOH involving four forsaken who try to kill Rand and
fail. Starting in LOC, the DO orders the forsaken not to kill Rand.
This order was still in place at the end of aCoS, when Moridin
baelfires the bejeeses out of Sammael.
The order may or may not have been repealed at the end of TPOD.

I am so glad you posted this. I've had to read a lot of nonsense thus
far. So let me get this right, basically they tried to kill him first
up and failed, fair enough. Then the order went out to not kill him
hence Morridin saved Rand at the end of ACoS. Now the big question is
why did the DO give this order?

[steveo]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by Casey
Guys, this is extensively discussed in the FAQ under "TPOD Attack"
In the beginning of the series the Forsaken were released individually
bu the DO was not strong. They each went their own way. Some of them
tried to kill Rand, starting in TEOTW. This culminates in a
conspiracy in TFOH involving four forsaken who try to kill Rand and
fail. Starting in LOC, the DO orders the forsaken not to kill Rand.
This order was still in place at the end of aCoS, when Moridin
baelfires the bejeeses out of Sammael.
The order may or may not have been repealed at the end of TPOD.

I am so glad you posted this. I've had to read a lot of nonsense thus
far. So let me get this right, basically they tried to kill him first
up and failed, fair enough. Then the order went out to not kill him
hence Morridin saved Rand at the end of ACoS. Now the big question is
why did the DO give this order?

Because he wanted to turn him to the dark side of the force.

[Galad Damodred]

Post by steveo
Because he wanted to turn him to the dark side of the force.

Why did he change his mind?

[Luc Habert]

Post by Galad Damodred
Why did he change his mind?

Apparently because Rand was planning to cleanse Saidin.

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Luc Habert
Apparently because Rand was planning to cleanse Saidin.

Interesting. Thanks Lord Luc.

[vecki]

Post by Galad Damodred

Post by steveo
Because he wanted to turn him to the dark side of the force.

Why did he change his mind?

Because Rand said "No." And if the Dark One couldn't have Rand, then
no one could. He's like a crazed stalker type person that way.

~*~
vecki

[Galad Damodred]

Post by vecki
Because Rand said "No." And if the Dark One couldn't have Rand, then
no one could. He's like a crazed stalker type person that way.

So first he tries to kill him. Then he tries to bring him to the dark
side. Then he tries to kill him again. A right nutter bad guy, ain't
he?!

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 1 May 2008 20:47:57 -0700 (PDT) -

Post by vecki

Post by Chucky & Janica
I think he's playing both sides. It's just one of many reasons I still
think it will be stupid and boring if he turns out to be Ishamael
reborn.

Maybe he's Beidomon, or whatever that guy's name from TSR was. :-)
You know, the guy who helped Lanfear drill the Bore.

Wow, that's a familiar theory. Has 2001 rolled around again? *grin*




C&J

[Trolloc]

Because then the series would have ended, and you don't kill a golden-egg-
laying goose in its prime.

[Galad Damodred]

Post by Trolloc
Because then the series would have ended, and you don't kill a golden-egg-
laying goose in its prime.

Yes, but you do give reasons for why something did or did not happen
otherwise you're left with a dumbass plot.