Moiraine

[ICaveman]

I asked this before a long time ago.

How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael and High Lord Samon
was Belal?

No one cared before, but this really bugs me.

[Sydo Zandstra]

Post by ICaveman
I asked this before a long time ago.
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael and High Lord Samon
was Belal?
No one cared before, but this really bugs me.

I would have to reread tDR for that, and it's been at least 4 years since I
did that. I guess the same may go for a lot of people in here.

So don't take it personal, if you don't get many replies. There are a lot of
people here who have been reading the series since the early nineties, and
at some point a full reread for a new installment isn't worth it anymore...

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by ICaveman
I asked this before a long time ago.
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael and High Lord Samon
was Belal?
No one cared before, but this really bugs me.

As far as I remember, this was never explicitly stated. But the
implication was that Moiraine "knew what to look for" in a city
dominated by a Forsaken: general despair, bad dreams with consistent
images, etc. From that, we're left to assume that Moiraine did some
detective work (any new Lords in Illian/High Lords of Tear show up
recently?) to figure out whom the Forsaken was masquerading as. I
don't think it is ever stated how she knew specifically that Lord Brend
was Sammael, or High Lord Samon was Bel'al.

[Matt Schroeder]

Post by ICaveman
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael and High Lord Samon
was Belal?

M went off into town after the arrival of the darkhound and did
something "off camera" to find out. I always assumed she talked to a
few sources and put it together. Did it make a whole lot of sense? Not
really. Considering, M could be expected to have done some pretty
serious research on the Forsaken, and the arrival of a new, previously
unknown High Lord and Council of Nine member would be construed as
remarkable to nearly everyone. Perhaps she had researched enough to put
together idents based on descriptions given of the two new guys.

Post by ICaveman
From a writing standpoint, it worked pretty well to add a serious punch

of tension and also served to further the Aes Sedai mystery thing.
(this was before we got let inside the icy stares, folded arms, sniffs,
and tea preferences thus functionally letting the air out of all the
pretty cool work RJ had done on AS up to that point) After it's all
said and done I just crinkle up my face and shrug, then I accept it as
AS mystery and wistfully remember the days when they had some.

matt.

[Dan Weiner]

Post by Matt Schroeder

Post by ICaveman
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael and High Lord Samon
was Belal?

After it's all
said and done I just crinkle up my face and shrug, then I accept it as
AS mystery and wistfully remember the days when they had some.

Well said. Remember that at this point, AS were mysterious badass
ninjas and not tea-pouring airheads; so M did some mysterious badass
ninja snooping and discovered the truth.

--D

[Petter Strandmark]

Post by ICaveman
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael

Sammael has a scar on his cheek. This is known in some records in this
age; Moiraine has most likely done her homework.
She knows that a new mysterious lord could be one of the Forsaken and
when she learns of the scar she knows it's Sammael.

Be'lal isn't as obvious.

[David Chapman]

Post by Petter Strandmark

Post by ICaveman
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael

Sammael has a scar on his cheek. This is known in some records in this
age; Moiraine has most likely done her homework.
She knows that a new mysterious lord could be one of the Forsaken and
when she learns of the scar she knows it's Sammael.

Nothing so complex. When the Trollocs and Darkfriends attack Rand's camp as
he leads the Aiel out of the Waste, they're shouting "Sammael and the Golden
Bees!" That's a pretty big clue, I'm sure you'll agree.

Post by Petter Strandmark
Be'lal isn't as obvious.

Process of elimination. She already knew that three of the men were dead,
and as you said facts about the others do survive. Demandred works through
proxies; he wouldn't take over directly. Sammael has a scar that he won't
hide. Rahvin is a lech; if this new High Lord isn't shagging everything in
sight, it's not him. That leaves only Be'lal and Asmodean, and she may have
had some scrap that confirmed the one or eliminated the other.

The bigger question is how she knew he was one of the Forsaken at all. IIRC
Aes Sedai can sense Shadowspawn, and a male Forsaken's link to the Dark One
may be sufficient to trigger that. She'd know it couldn't be only a
Darkfriend because they can't sense Darkfriends, so if he appeared to be an
ordinary man he would have to be something more. While this begs the
question of why she did nothing about Asmodean when he was posing as Jasin
Natael, that's trivially answered: she saw it in the rings at Rhuidean.

[Robert Mee]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Petter Strandmark

Post by ICaveman
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael

Sammael has a scar on his cheek. This is known in some records in this
age; Moiraine has most likely done her homework.
She knows that a new mysterious lord could be one of the Forsaken and
when she learns of the scar she knows it's Sammael.

Nothing so complex. When the Trollocs and Darkfriends attack Rand's camp as
he leads the Aiel out of the Waste, they're shouting "Sammael and the Golden
Bees!" That's a pretty big clue, I'm sure you'll agree.

Post by Petter Strandmark
Be'lal isn't as obvious.

Process of elimination. She already knew that three of the men were dead,
and as you said facts about the others do survive. Demandred works through
proxies; he wouldn't take over directly. Sammael has a scar that he won't
hide. Rahvin is a lech; if this new High Lord isn't shagging everything in
sight, it's not him. That leaves only Be'lal and Asmodean, and she may have
had some scrap that confirmed the one or eliminated the other.
The bigger question is how she knew he was one of the Forsaken at all. IIRC
Aes Sedai can sense Shadowspawn, and a male Forsaken's link to the Dark One
may be sufficient to trigger that. She'd know it couldn't be only a
Darkfriend because they can't sense Darkfriends, so if he appeared to be an
ordinary man he would have to be something more. While this begs the
question of why she did nothing about Asmodean when he was posing as Jasin
Natael, that's trivially answered: she saw it in the rings at Rhuidean.

I just finished a reread of TDR, and there's no concrete evidence that
is presented to show how M knew that Brend and Samon were Sammael and
Be'lal. I don't even know that it was brought out in that book... at
least the Brend/Sammael part. I remember her coming back to the inn
they were at after the deathninja bit and saying "A Forsaken rules in
Illian, we must leave immediately" and then her telling the innkeeper
(who was one of her Eyes and Ears) to get the heck outta Dodge, but I
don't think she specifies "Lord Brend is Sammael"... though I'm happy to
concede it might have happened. I do seem to remember something being
mentioned about Be'lal being the Netweaver, and M not knowing that...
but I don't remember if that's the beginning of tSR or TDR. She did,
however, know that Samon was Be'lal... maybe from the dreams that Rand
was broadcasting? Or the ones Be'lal was surely broadcasting?

Rob

[Cairone Belaero]

Post by Robert Mee
I just finished a reread of TDR, and there's no concrete evidence that
is presented to show how M knew that Brend and Samon were Sammael and
Be'lal. I don't even know that it was brought out in that book... at
least the Brend/Sammael part. I remember her coming back to the inn
they were at after the deathninja bit and saying "A Forsaken rules in
Illian, we must leave immediately" and then her telling the innkeeper
(who was one of her Eyes and Ears) to get the heck outta Dodge, but I
don't think she specifies "Lord Brend is Sammael"... though I'm happy to
concede it might have happened. I do seem to remember something being
mentioned about Be'lal being the Netweaver, and M not knowing that...
but I don't remember if that's the beginning of tSR or TDR. She did,
however, know that Samon was Be'lal... maybe from the dreams that Rand
was broadcasting? Or the ones Be'lal was surely broadcasting?
Rob

Actually, what we have (I don't have the book with me, but I'm pretty
clear on this):

At end of chapter Moiraine says something along these lines:

"It seems your wolf dreams are true. The Forsaken are loose, and one
of them rules Illian."

Then I believe at the beginning of the next chapter Perrin says,
approximately,

"So we're leaving, then?"

M: "Unless you wish to make better acquaintance with Sammael."

And then she explains how quote-on-quote Lord Brend will be looking for
them soon because a Darkhound was dead, which points to Warder, and
Warder points to Aes Sedai, and Sammael will come looking for that Aes
Sedai.

Both in Illian and in Tear Moiraine knew which Forsaken ruled. Recall
with Be'lal, she quizzed Loial about him, and learned he was called the
Netweaver.

I agree with the verdict of mysterious Aes Sedai ways, never explaining
exactly how in order to make the Aes Sedai seem competent, capable, and
intelligent. And Moiraine as a super-sleuth makes sense despite what
we've seen recently, since she had spent years upon years tracking down
the Dragon Reborn. We could assume that she's pretty adept at making
connections, has a Brown's load of tidbits at her fingertips (she'd
kick ass at WoT Trivial Pursuit), and can put 2 and 2 together unlike
most other Aes Sedai.

Honestly, I think Moiraine turned out so well as an Aes Sedai because
she spent so much time away from the Tower.

--CB

[Elfseeker]

Post by Cairone Belaero
Honestly, I think Moiraine turned out so well as an Aes Sedai because
she spent so much time away from the Tower.

Darn right. :P
Didn't she take off less than a month after being raised? And kept on the
road from there? That's how I understood things...though it might cover a
bit too much time to be wandering the world more or less aimlessly, need or
no. :P

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Elfseeker

Post by Cairone Belaero
Honestly, I think Moiraine turned out so well as an Aes Sedai because
she spent so much time away from the Tower.

Darn right. :P
Didn't she take off less than a month after being raised? And kept on the
road from there? That's how I understood things...though it might cover a
bit too much time to be wandering the world more or less aimlessly, need or
no. :P

Since Moiraine disobeyed the Amyrlin's order to stay in the WT, did the Amyrlin
cut her off from the 1000 gold crowns she was to recieve each year?

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Robert Mee

Post by David Chapman

Post by Petter Strandmark

Post by ICaveman
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael

Sammael has a scar on his cheek. This is known in some records in this
age; Moiraine has most likely done her homework.
She knows that a new mysterious lord could be one of the Forsaken and
when she learns of the scar she knows it's Sammael.

Nothing so complex. When the Trollocs and Darkfriends attack Rand's camp as
he leads the Aiel out of the Waste, they're shouting "Sammael and the Golden
Bees!" That's a pretty big clue, I'm sure you'll agree.

Post by Petter Strandmark
Be'lal isn't as obvious.

Process of elimination. She already knew that three of the men were dead,
and as you said facts about the others do survive. Demandred works through
proxies; he wouldn't take over directly. Sammael has a scar that he won't
hide. Rahvin is a lech; if this new High Lord isn't shagging everything in
sight, it's not him. That leaves only Be'lal and Asmodean, and she may have
had some scrap that confirmed the one or eliminated the other.
The bigger question is how she knew he was one of the Forsaken at all. IIRC
Aes Sedai can sense Shadowspawn, and a male Forsaken's link to the Dark One
may be sufficient to trigger that. She'd know it couldn't be only a
Darkfriend because they can't sense Darkfriends, so if he appeared to be an
ordinary man he would have to be something more. While this begs the
question of why she did nothing about Asmodean when he was posing as Jasin
Natael, that's trivially answered: she saw it in the rings at Rhuidean.

I just finished a reread of TDR, and there's no concrete evidence that
is presented to show how M knew that Brend and Samon were Sammael and
Be'lal. I don't even know that it was brought out in that book... at
least the Brend/Sammael part. I remember her coming back to the inn
they were at after the deathninja bit and saying "A Forsaken rules in
Illian, we must leave immediately" and then her telling the innkeeper
(who was one of her Eyes and Ears) to get the heck outta Dodge, but I
don't think she specifies "Lord Brend is Sammael"... though I'm happy to
concede it might have happened. I do seem to remember something being
mentioned about Be'lal being the Netweaver, and M not knowing that...
but I don't remember if that's the beginning of tSR or TDR. She did,
however, know that Samon was Be'lal... maybe from the dreams that Rand
was broadcasting? Or the ones Be'lal was surely broadcasting?

TDR: Loial tells M that Be'lal is the Netweaver.

Why didn't Be'lal ward his dreams?

[Petter Strandmark]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Petter Strandmark

Post by ICaveman
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael

Sammael has a scar on his cheek. This is known in some records in this
age; Moiraine has most likely done her homework.
She knows that a new mysterious lord could be one of the Forsaken and
when she learns of the scar she knows it's Sammael.

Nothing so complex. When the Trollocs and Darkfriends attack Rand's camp as
he leads the Aiel out of the Waste, they're shouting "Sammael and the Golden
Bees!" That's a pretty big clue, I'm sure you'll agree.

Yes, it is a big clue, but that happens in the book after TDR, where
Moiraine identfies Lord Brend as Sammael.

[zed246]

Post by David Chapman
Nothing so complex. When the Trollocs and Darkfriends attack Rand's camp as
he leads the Aiel out of the Waste, they're shouting "Sammael and the Golden
Bees!" That's a pretty big clue, I'm sure you'll agree.

Well, You've already got a response for that but I'll say it again: the
DF attack was on TFoH while M knew about Sammael from her short visit
to Illian with Perrin in TDR.

Post by David Chapman

Post by Petter Strandmark
Be'lal isn't as obvious.

Process of elimination. She already knew that three of the men were dead,
and as you said facts about the others do survive. Demandred works through
proxies; he wouldn't take over directly. Sammael has a scar that he won't
hide. Rahvin is a lech; if this new High Lord isn't shagging everything in
sight, it's not him. That leaves only Be'lal and Asmodean, and she may have
had some scrap that confirmed the one or eliminated the other.

I don't know. How could she tell all of those things? It's a great leap
from knowing there is a scar on Sammael (which was a very unique
detail) and knowing about the strategies of Demandred or the habbits of
Rahvin.

Post by David Chapman
The bigger question is how she knew he was one of the Forsaken at all. IIRC
Aes Sedai can sense Shadowspawn, and a male Forsaken's link to the Dark One
may be sufficient to trigger that. She'd know it couldn't be only a
Darkfriend because they can't sense Darkfriends, so if he appeared to be an
ordinary man he would have to be something more. While this begs the
question of why she did nothing about Asmodean when he was posing as Jasin
Natael, that's trivially answered: she saw it in the rings at Rhuidean.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

That's, as others pointed out before me, isn't that bad if you have a
clue of what to look for, ie bad dreams, despair etc..

[Mike Timbers]

"zed246" <***@whoever.com> wrote in message news:***@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
snip

Post by zed246
I don't know. How could she tell all of those things? It's a great leap
from knowing there is a scar on Sammael (which was a very unique
detail) and knowing about the strategies of Demandred or the habbits of
Rahvin.

You mean "hobbits" surely?

[zed246]

Quantum again!

i try, I realy try. I'm working with Michal 5.5 (which is the best I
know) and scan my posts sometimes twice before sending them. What can I
say, English's not my main language and I don't write as well as I read
or speak. Am I damned for all eternity to be corrected for my spelling?

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Mike Timbers
snip

Post by zed246
I don't know. How could she tell all of those things? It's a great leap
from knowing there is a scar on Sammael (which was a very unique
detail) and knowing about the strategies of Demandred or the habbits of
Rahvin.

You mean "hobbits" surely?

Rahvin employed hobbits? How did he obtain them from Middle Earth?

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Petter Strandmark

Post by ICaveman
How did Moiraine know that Lord Brend was Sammael

Sammael has a scar on his cheek. This is known in some records in this
age; Moiraine has most likely done her homework.
She knows that a new mysterious lord could be one of the Forsaken and
when she learns of the scar she knows it's Sammael.

Why didn't Sammael use an Illusion Weave to hide his scar to keep anyone
from fingering him that way?

Post by Petter Strandmark
Be'lal isn't as obvious.