Discussion:
Theory (I hope not loony) - Stedding, Far Madding, and non-channeling Ages (Spoilers for KoD)
(too old to reply)
Swithin
2005-10-20 02:07:00 UTC
Permalink
A lot of people have assumed that channeling will disappear from
Randland after Tarmon Gaidon. I disagree with this idea, but I've been
thinking about how it could be accomplished so quickly, which led me to
a little theory.

Thinking upon Mat's ter'angreal, and RJ's comment that a channeler
wearing one would both have protection from others' flows but still be
able to channel, I had the notion that a channeler wearing the
ter'angreal might be immune to Far Madding's artificial Stedding-ness.
Then I recalled that, according to RJ, Cadsuane *is* wearing one, and
she'd still need a Well to channel in Far Madding.

That got me to thinking about what Far Madding's anti-channeling TA
actually do. They don't block each individual channeler from getting to
the OP, since Wells work, nor do they interpose between each channeler
and the source directly, since wearing the medallion would break up
whatever flows would be used for that effect. They don't dissipate
whatever amount of OP is in a Well, nor do they prevent it from being
accessed. So what do they do?

The best I could come up with was that the ter'angreal which prevent
channeling actually push the source away, in a sphere, making Far
Madding something akin to a city built on an artificial island in a
stream. You can bring water in in cups, but you don't get your ankles
wet walking around, that kind of thing.

Which led me to wonder if Stedding are really so naturally-occurring as
they seem. If Stedding have the same effect, pushing the source away,
and the Pattern is permeated by the source, the Pattern wouldn't
naturally form Stedding. In fact, it *couldn't* form Stedding. The
Stedding also have to be somehow artificial.

Now this leads to even further wackiness. If the Stedding are remnants
of artificial no-source zones, who made them originally and why? One
would assume the Ogier or Nym, or the Ogier and Nym, once they came to
Earth. That would presuppose, however, that the Ogier or Nym have the
power to create them, or the ability to explain to channelers exactly
what they needed and how to form it with the OP. If that were the case,
then every Stedding, and its shifting movements, is actually an anti-OP
ter'angreal hidden somewhere deep beneath the ground, and the
Steddings' movements over centuries have to do with tectonic shifts.
That actually jives with what we know of the Breaking, and what
happened to the Stedding afterwards.

Now, here's the cool part.

First off, the Book of Translation. My take on that, quite simply, is
that it's a Portal Stone "map". It's also a time-limit plot-wise on how
long the Ogier are going to stick around. More on this later.

We know that people will lose the ability to channel again. It happens
apparently once per revolution of the Wheel, as does regaining the
ability. It's unlikely that losing the ability to channel will have to
deal with a genetic culling of the gene, since channeling is so useful,
and somewhere around the world at any given point in time channeling
will be in vogue. The Taint got it down a bit, but it never really
disappears, and since it's there at least some of the time in every
turning of the Wheel in a large amount of the population, it's unlikely
it disappears and somehow re-emerges on its own.

So why do people stop channeling? Does the world change, and suddenly
prevent access to the OP, on its own? That too is unlikely, for the
same reason that naturally-occurring Stedding are unlikely... which
means that at some point, the OP must be blocked artificially. The most
likely culprit for this is anti-OP ter'angreal, as in Far Madding. In
fact, pretty much the only way to achieve this is to create a patchwork
network of ter'angreal all across the surface and oceans of the earth.

But *why* would someone do this, especially when the project would take
the collaboration of thousands of channelers all willing to give up
channeling forever? The only answer to that is that it's done to
prevent the DO from touching the world. It's done to prevent anyone
breaking the Seal. It's done to protect the world from the horrors that
will be seen at Tarmon Gaidon. It's the only thing that can be done to
make sure humanity is safe. It's the equivalent of total multilateral
disarmament.

Here's the hitch. Nobody knows how to make these ter'angreal. In fact,
no-one can even study them with the Power. Aviendha might be able to
"feel" what they do, but everyone knows anyway and that doesn't help
determine *how* they do it. The only people hypothetically capable of
recreating them are channelers with some serious outside help, or
Ogier/Nym and Song of Growing capable humans. In both cases, the likely
parties are Ogier, either to guide others or to do it themselves, but
they're leaving. How does it make sense for the Ogier to be unable to
leave before helping to make the world a Stedding, when the world's
about to become a Stedding they can live in comfortably? Well, it's
probably one of those Prophecy things. How else would they guess now is
the time to open the Book of Translation?

So here's my theory, in short. After Tarmon Gaidon, the heroes somehow
learn from the Ogier how to make the world a giant Stedding. Rand sets
up the plan, which will take perhaps many generations, and either the
Ogier help or the Song is discovered and the Tuatha'an are the ones who
actually go around planting these things, most likely both. So,
hundreds of years after the Dragon Reborn, who is now legend or myth,
people talk about channeling as if it were some fancy fairy-tale that
the backwards people of long ago believed in, even though somehow
everyone can feel it ring true. Some people, those with the genes, even
feel as if there should be more to the world, but of course, everybody
knows you can't just move things with your mind...

Only one thing left... how do people regain the ability to channel? I
guess the obvious answer is some kind of cataclysmic war involving
nuclear bombs, but it really could be anything.

Anyway, thoughts?
Matt Schroeder
2005-10-20 02:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Swithin wrote:
<entire presentation snipped>
Post by Swithin
That actually jives with what we know of the Breaking, and what
happened to the Stedding afterwards.
Oh oh, here we go again...

cheers,
matt.
Mitchell Swan
2005-10-20 13:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Schroeder
<entire presentation snipped>
Post by Swithin
That actually jives with what we know of the Breaking, and what
happened to the Stedding afterwards.
Oh oh, here we go again...
Now see, if you hadn't have posted this, I would have never tweaked to
it, cause I skipped Swithin's post.

Nothing against Swithin, I just can't find any interest in the subject.

But you are correct, certainly. He needs to be smacked upside the
head with a dictionary.

Bad Swithin! No cookie for you!
--
Mitch
"While I am new to these things, I cannot help wondering whether it
might be disrespectful to vault over an altar that way."
Swithin
2005-10-20 13:56:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mitchell Swan
Now see, if you hadn't have posted this, I would have never tweaked to
it, cause I skipped Swithin's post.
Nothing against Swithin, I just can't find any interest in the subject.
But you are correct, certainly. He needs to be smacked upside the
head with a dictionary.
Bad Swithin! No cookie for you!
Err... apologies? Now you've made me kinda want to know what I've done.
The dictionary implies poor spelling or improper usage of a word, but I
don't think that's it.

Oh well, I guess I had it coming. Consider me smaked upside the head
with a dictionary. <sadly hands over last cookie>
Mitchell Swan
2005-10-20 14:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Swithin
Err... apologies? Now you've made me kinda want to know what I've done.
The dictionary implies poor spelling or improper usage of a word, but I
don't think that's it.
Oh well, I guess I had it coming. Consider me smaked upside the head
with a dictionary. <sadly hands over last cookie>
Look up the word "jive."

Then look up the word "jibe."

Thanks much.
--
Mitch
"While I am new to these things, I cannot help wondering whether it
might be disrespectful to vault over an altar that way."
Swithin
2005-10-21 00:15:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mitchell Swan
Look up the word "jive."
Then look up the word "jibe."
Thanks much.
Huh, totally missed that. ^_^ Thanks, btw.
Allen Bryan
2005-10-20 04:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Swithin
The best I could come up with was that the ter'angreal which prevent
channeling actually push the source away, in a sphere, making Far
Madding something akin to a city built on an artificial island in a
stream. You can bring water in in cups, but you don't get your ankles
wet walking around, that kind of thing.
I hereby dub this the "ysalamiri stedding theory". :-P

As for creating a World-Stedding, I don't see that has to happen at
Tarmon Gai'don. It could just as well happen at the end of the Fourth
or Fifth Age. And if there is an Age in which only women can channel,
doesn't symmetry demand an Age in which only men can channel? *scary
thought*

And after the last two Ages, no one is going to be crazy enough to
permit another drilling of the Bore. It seems clear to me that after
the Black Ajah Purge in the White Tower and the coming victory of
Logain over Taim at the Black Tower, both male and female channelers
are going to maintain pretty strict monitoring on their memberships re:
being Darkfriends. After all, they spent the whole Third Age thinking
there was no Black Ajah, and, well...

On the Resealing: the reason the Dark One was able to taint saidin was
that it was directly touching him: the formation of the Seals involved
a direct connection from saidin to the Bore. Rand reversed that by
connecting saidin to Shadar Logoth, a lump of anti-evil, which
neutralized the Taint. (Technically, SL was anti-anti-Light, which any
constructivist will tell you is not the same thing as Light. Anyone who
tells you that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" should take a long
hard look at Shadar Logoth.)

Well, Rand certainly can't do that again -- for one thing, LTT would go
bumfuck. And if he uses both saidin and saidar at the same time, all he
does is make it possible for BOTH halves of the Source to be tainted
-- obviously a Bad Thing.

So what has to happen? Rand has to build the new prison WITHOUT letting
his weaves actually *touch* the Dark One. Presumably this could be
accomplished through some sort of reality twisting, with Rand "holding"
space with the Power but letting only the folded space touch the Dark
One. Instead of patching the Bore, he'd be closing it the way a gateway
closes.

Viewed from a completely philosophical perspective, it could be argued
that the entire Wheel of Time is simply a machine to continuously
regenerate the Dark One's prison -- with built-in extreme safety
precautions such that no matter what the DO does, he can't break the
machine.
Swithin
2005-10-20 05:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allen Bryan
Post by Swithin
The best I could come up with was that the ter'angreal which prevent
channeling actually push the source away, in a sphere, making Far
Madding something akin to a city built on an artificial island in a
stream. You can bring water in in cups, but you don't get your ankles
wet walking around, that kind of thing.
I hereby dub this the "ysalamiri stedding theory". :-P
I had to google the reference, but thanks for a name for this. :P
Post by Allen Bryan
As for creating a World-Stedding, I don't see that has to happen at
Tarmon Gai'don. It could just as well happen at the end of the Fourth
or Fifth Age. And if there is an Age in which only women can channel,
doesn't symmetry demand an Age in which only men can channel? *scary
thought*
Yeah, we can skip that Age. And I'm not suggesting it happen right
after Tarmon Gai'don (skipped the apostrophe before, whoops.) We've had
way too much setup over post TG power structure in the Tower, treatment
of damane and sul'dam
Post by Allen Bryan
And after the last two Ages, no one is going to be crazy enough to
permit another drilling of the Bore. It seems clear to me that after
the Black Ajah Purge in the White Tower and the coming victory of
Logain over Taim at the Black Tower, both male and female channelers
being Darkfriends. After all, they spent the whole Third Age thinking
there was no Black Ajah, and, well...
Mutant Registration Act? I can see problems enforcing something similar
across an entire planet, making sure *every* channeler is in line.
Post by Allen Bryan
Viewed from a completely philosophical perspective, it could be argued
that the entire Wheel of Time is simply a machine to continuously
regenerate the Dark One's prison -- with built-in extreme safety
precautions such that no matter what the DO does, he can't break the
machine.
Kind of. Jordan's all about balance and symmetry. I get the feeling
that there are two entities (Creator and DO) fighting over one Pattern.
Currently the Creator's got it, and is running it with OP. If the DO
breaks free sometime and takes over with the TP, the Creator (now the
DO) is suddenly the bad guy trying to break free of his prison trying
to destroy what the current "Creator" (formerly the DO) has done with
the Pattern. Why can't we all just get along?
Jamie Bowden
2005-10-21 16:13:03 UTC
Permalink
And if there is an Age in which only women can channel, doesn't symmetry
demand an Age in which only men can channel? *scary thought*
In which Age were only women able to channel?

Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <***@alaric.org.uk>
David Chapman
2005-10-21 23:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie Bowden
And if there is an Age in which only women can channel, doesn't symmetry
demand an Age in which only men can channel? *scary thought*
In which Age were only women able to channel?
I think the word "without going mad and killing everybody" was implied.

Personally, I think the Age in which men can't channel without going mad is
counterbalanced by an Age in which women aren't very good car mechanics. :)
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
e***@hotmail.com
2005-10-24 08:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allen Bryan
Post by Swithin
The best I could come up with was that the ter'angreal which prevent
channeling actually push the source away, in a sphere, making Far
Madding something akin to a city built on an artificial island in a
stream. You can bring water in in cups, but you don't get your ankles
wet walking around, that kind of thing.
I hereby dub this the "ysalamiri stedding theory". :-P
As for creating a World-Stedding, I don't see that has to happen at
Tarmon Gai'don. It could just as well happen at the end of the Fourth
or Fifth Age. And if there is an Age in which only women can channel,
doesn't symmetry demand an Age in which only men can channel? *scary
thought*
And after the last two Ages, no one is going to be crazy enough to
permit another drilling of the Bore. It seems clear to me that after
the Black Ajah Purge in the White Tower and the coming victory of
Logain over Taim at the Black Tower, both male and female channelers
being Darkfriends. After all, they spent the whole Third Age thinking
there was no Black Ajah, and, well...
On drilling the Bore, only the Aiel wise ones and clan chiefs know that
story. And even then only fomr a distance, nobody seems to see the
weaves involved and/or the tech involved.
-snip-
Post by Allen Bryan
So what has to happen? Rand has to build the new prison WITHOUT letting
his weaves actually *touch* the Dark One. Presumably this could be
accomplished through some sort of reality twisting, with Rand "holding"
space with the Power but letting only the folded space touch the Dark
One. Instead of patching the Bore, he'd be closing it the way a gateway
closes.
It is just a perspective issue. Imaging humanity is on one island and
the DO is on another. The water prevents them from crossing, and all
the building materials are on man's island. But man being an
enterprising chap builds a bridge across to the far island.

Man realises his mistake, but instead of destroying the bridge he
decides to build a blockade across the bridge. The creator could raise
the water levels to cover the bridge, but man does not have that power.
However all he has to do is destroy the bridge he built. Instead he
blocks it, which just takes the DO time to dismantle.

If you cannot picture the Bore as a bridge, because you do not see the
paradigms as matching, look at it as a gateway or artificially created
wormhole.
Post by Allen Bryan
Viewed from a completely philosophical perspective, it could be argued
that the entire Wheel of Time is simply a machine to continuously
regenerate the Dark One's prison -- with built-in extreme safety
precautions such that no matter what the DO does, he can't break the
machine.
Rajiv Mote
2005-10-20 06:00:59 UTC
Permalink
Swithin wrote:
<SNIP>
Post by Swithin
Which led me to wonder if Stedding are really so naturally-occurring as
they seem. If Stedding have the same effect, pushing the source away,
and the Pattern is permeated by the source, the Pattern wouldn't
naturally form Stedding. In fact, it *couldn't* form Stedding. The
Stedding also have to be somehow artificial.
Now this leads to even further wackiness. If the Stedding are remnants
of artificial no-source zones, who made them originally and why? One
would assume the Ogier or Nym, or the Ogier and Nym, once they came to
Earth. That would presuppose, however, that the Ogier or Nym have the
power to create them, or the ability to explain to channelers exactly
what they needed and how to form it with the OP. If that were the case,
then every Stedding, and its shifting movements, is actually an anti-OP
ter'angreal hidden somewhere deep beneath the ground, and the
Steddings' movements over centuries have to do with tectonic shifts.
That actually jives with what we know of the Breaking, and what
happened to the Stedding afterwards.
<SNIP>

The new information about the Book of Translation verifies that the
Ogier come from some other world. Given the fact that the Ogier cannot
be separated too long from the stedding, it's not unreasonable to
assume that the stedding are zones that reproduce the properties of the
Ogier homeworld, created for their comfort. There are, after all,
other examples of "pocket dimensions" with different physics: the Ways,
the Skimming Place, vacuoles. It's likely the Pattern naturally
includes some dimensions where the True Source cannot be sensed at all,
even though it lies at the "heart of Creation". It isn't a stretch,
when you consider that the Dark One can't be directly sensed except at
the "thinness" at Shayol Ghul, even though Shayol Ghul is physically no
closer to the Bore than anywhere else.

So the pseudoscience non-answer to why the stedding have Power-blocking
properties is that they are pocket dimensions where the local physics
prevent sensing the True Source. And I'd have to agree with you that
they're artificial: they were created (by whatever means) to
accommodate the Ogier visitors. Far Madding's Guardian ter'angreal
likely uses the same underlying principles, if not the same technology.

-- Rajiv
David Chapman
2005-10-20 10:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Swithin
We know that people will lose the ability to channel again. It happens
apparently once per revolution of the Wheel, as does regaining the
ability. It's unlikely that losing the ability to channel will have to
deal with a genetic culling of the gene,
In all truth, I think it's very likely. I don't think it will happen at the
end of the books, however.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Petter Strandmark
2005-10-20 15:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Swithin
If that were the case,
then every Stedding, and its shifting movements, is actually an anti-OP
ter'angreal hidden somewhere deep beneath the ground, and the
Steddings' movements over centuries have to do with tectonic shifts.
That actually jives with what we know of the Breaking, and what
happened to the Stedding afterwards.
Steddings have more weird properties than just blocking the OP. For
example, they have no reflection in T'A'R and you feel at peace when
you enter.
--
Petter
Jasper Janssen
2005-10-23 13:47:56 UTC
Permalink
On 20 Oct 2005 08:58:53 -0700, "Petter Strandmark"
Post by Petter Strandmark
Post by Swithin
If that were the case,
then every Stedding, and its shifting movements, is actually an anti-OP
ter'angreal hidden somewhere deep beneath the ground, and the
Steddings' movements over centuries have to do with tectonic shifts.
That actually jives with what we know of the Breaking, and what
happened to the Stedding afterwards.
Steddings have more weird properties than just blocking the OP. For
example, they have no reflection in T'A'R and you feel at peace when
you enter.
TAR is linked to the power, somehow. Loony Theory: Stedding are actually
outside the *pattern*, and not just powerless places in it.

Jasper
Tim Bruening
2010-03-29 20:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On 20 Oct 2005 08:58:53 -0700, "Petter Strandmark"
Post by Petter Strandmark
Post by Swithin
If that were the case,
then every Stedding, and its shifting movements, is actually an anti-OP
ter'angreal hidden somewhere deep beneath the ground, and the
Steddings' movements over centuries have to do with tectonic shifts.
That actually jives with what we know of the Breaking, and what
happened to the Stedding afterwards.
Steddings have more weird properties than just blocking the OP. For
example, they have no reflection in T'A'R and you feel at peace when
you enter.
TAR is linked to the power, somehow. Loony Theory: Stedding are actually
outside the *pattern*, and not just powerless places in it.
Could the DO inhabit a stedding and then cross from the stedding into the
Pattern?

e***@hotmail.com
2005-10-22 17:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Swithin
A lot of people have assumed that channeling will disappear from
Randland after Tarmon Gaidon. I disagree with this idea, but I've been
thinking about how it could be accomplished so quickly, which led me to
a little theory.
Sorry I snipped a lot of theory bits that didn't seem relevant.
Post by Swithin
We know that people will lose the ability to channel again. It happens
apparently once per revolution of the Wheel, as does regaining the
ability. It's unlikely that losing the ability to channel will have to
deal with a genetic culling of the gene, since channeling is so useful,
and somewhere around the world at any given point in time channeling
will be in vogue.
No actually we do not know this. We know the world will lose organised
or co-ordinated channeling. That is us at this point in the wheel.

Now look back at Book 1, when Moiraine was explaining to Nynaeve that
she could already channel. She had no way of knowing. She could 'read
the wind' and some of her cures worked well but she believed it was
because of the cures themselves.

When the Red Ajah are looking for men who can channel they look for men
who are unusually lucky I think was suggested somewhere. Or they wait
until the insanity takes hold and they flatten a village.

Do we ever get a ratio of spontaneous channelers to non spontaneous?
And then how many of the spontaneous die before their gift can
'normalise'? In this day and age we are taught what is possible and
impossible, and we build blocks for ourselves. How many wilders could
there be who have limited themselves to a little bit of luck, or
empathy or minor influence with people because nobody knows their true
potential and they are taught they have none.
Post by Swithin
So why do people stop channeling? Does the world change, and suddenly
prevent access to the OP, on its own? That too is unlikely, for the
same reason that naturally-occurring Stedding are unlikely...
Anyway, thoughts?
Organised religion. Look at the Whitecloaks and channeling, but they
never had the power to take on channelers. On the other hand look at
places like Salem, and how organised religions have dealt with
mysticism in the past.

So you have a Black Death type event. The population is decimated.
Communities become insular and turn to religion. Anything mystical is
blamed for the onset of the plague. Look at Emond's Field at the start
of the series, with their black fang on people's doors. That is where
the fear and hate start.

Maybe a student tries to unpick a web inside the white tower and the
city of Tar Valon is destroyed. There is no longer a central repositary
of knowedge for the Aes Sedai, and knowing what they are capable of
causing they are shunned in every city.

A mini ice age or a Noah's flood type event could also be trigger for a
knowledge shift. Heck even Tarmon Gaidon. The Aes Sedai are not loved
by anyone not a channeler. They have built themselves up to be feared
and hated by the common man, and by the Lords of the Land. If their
ranks are thinned sufficiently by TG it may be that too much knowledge
will be lost and unrecoverable.

Because you have the four different repositeries of channeling knowedge
that I am aware of - Aiel, Tower, Seafolk and Kin - The black death
event seems to best fit the pattern. Especially if you look at how the
Aes Sedai were prior to Nynaeve. If they did not have a weave to match
the issue, they could not make a new one on the spot. Nynaeve seems to
be able to delve an injury and create a weave specific to it. Without
that ability, a plague could be just as devestating to channelers as
non- channelers.
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