Discussion:
drinking
(too old to reply)
k***@gmail.com
2005-08-18 13:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi rasfwrj!

I was thinking about drinking. alcohol. everybody does that in randland
it seems, all the time. spiced wine, chilled wine, hot wine, mulled
wine. Why don't we see any alcoholics? why don't we see lines like
"Rand fought the Blademaster hard, dancing from form to form. Laughing
at the Monkey became Tickling the Maid, and sweat was heavy on his
forehead. But it was not Saidin making him dizzy today. 'Oh, I wonder
if three mugs of wine before a battle really sharpens your senses as
they say', he thought".

just a random thought from a random poster.
Bill
2005-08-18 14:03:13 UTC
Permalink
In Shadow Rising one of the villager from Edmunds Field had a drink
problem. I can't remember his name, but I want to say he was a Conger.

I wonder what would happen if Perrin got drunk and tried talking to the
wolves. That might be interesting. And how would drinking effect
channeling. We've seen Elaine get falling down drunk, but she didn't
try to channel.
Post by k***@gmail.com
Hi rasfwrj!
I was thinking about drinking. alcohol. everybody does that in randland
it seems, all the time. spiced wine, chilled wine, hot wine, mulled
wine. Why don't we see any alcoholics? why don't we see lines like
"Rand fought the Blademaster hard, dancing from form to form. Laughing
at the Monkey became Tickling the Maid, and sweat was heavy on his
forehead. But it was not Saidin making him dizzy today. 'Oh, I wonder
if three mugs of wine before a battle really sharpens your senses as
they say', he thought".
just a random thought from a random poster.
k***@gmail.com
2005-08-18 14:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Or maybe there just wouldn't be any babies in Randland unless people
were very drunk very often, regarding the general attitude between
women and men.
Bill
2005-08-18 14:23:37 UTC
Permalink
In Shadow Rising one of the villager from Edmunds Field had a drink
problem. I can't remember his name, but I want to say he was a Conger.

I wonder what would happen if Perrin got drunk and tried talking to the
wolves. That might be interesting. And how would drinking effect
channeling. We've seen Elaine get falling down drunk, but she didn't
try to channel.
Post by k***@gmail.com
Hi rasfwrj!
I was thinking about drinking. alcohol. everybody does that in randland
it seems, all the time. spiced wine, chilled wine, hot wine, mulled
wine. Why don't we see any alcoholics? why don't we see lines like
"Rand fought the Blademaster hard, dancing from form to form. Laughing
at the Monkey became Tickling the Maid, and sweat was heavy on his
forehead. But it was not Saidin making him dizzy today. 'Oh, I wonder
if three mugs of wine before a battle really sharpens your senses as
they say', he thought".
just a random thought from a random poster.
Bill
2005-08-18 14:25:22 UTC
Permalink
That's Weird it posted my post twice...
Post by Bill
In Shadow Rising one of the villager from Edmunds Field had a drink
problem. I can't remember his name, but I want to say he was a Conger.
I wonder what would happen if Perrin got drunk and tried talking to the
wolves. That might be interesting. And how would drinking effect
channeling. We've seen Elaine get falling down drunk, but she didn't
try to channel.
Post by k***@gmail.com
Hi rasfwrj!
I was thinking about drinking. alcohol. everybody does that in randland
it seems, all the time. spiced wine, chilled wine, hot wine, mulled
wine. Why don't we see any alcoholics? why don't we see lines like
"Rand fought the Blademaster hard, dancing from form to form. Laughing
at the Monkey became Tickling the Maid, and sweat was heavy on his
forehead. But it was not Saidin making him dizzy today. 'Oh, I wonder
if three mugs of wine before a battle really sharpens your senses as
they say', he thought".
just a random thought from a random poster.
Tim Bruening
2010-03-23 07:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
In Shadow Rising one of the villager from Edmunds Field had a drink
problem. I can't remember his name, but I want to say he was a Conger.
I wonder what would happen if Perrin got drunk and tried talking to the
wolves. That might be interesting. And how would drinking effect
channeling. We've seen Elaine get falling down drunk, but she didn't
try to channel.
In Winter's Heart, Aviendha, Min, and Birgitte got drunk so that they
wouldn't feel Rand and Elayne making love!
Tim Bruening
2010-03-24 02:05:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
In Shadow Rising one of the villager from Edmunds Field had a drink
problem. I can't remember his name, but I want to say he was a Conger.
I wonder what would happen if Perrin got drunk and tried talking to the
wolves. That might be interesting. And how would drinking effect
channeling. We've seen Elaine get falling down drunk, but she didn't
try to channel.
Could an AS heal alcoholism?

Rajiv Mote
2005-08-18 23:08:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@gmail.com
Hi rasfwrj!
I was thinking about drinking. alcohol. everybody does that in randland
it seems, all the time. spiced wine, chilled wine, hot wine, mulled
wine. Why don't we see any alcoholics? why don't we see lines like
"Rand fought the Blademaster hard, dancing from form to form. Laughing
at the Monkey became Tickling the Maid, and sweat was heavy on his
forehead. But it was not Saidin making him dizzy today. 'Oh, I wonder
if three mugs of wine before a battle really sharpens your senses as
they say', he thought".
just a random thought from a random poster.
Whitecloaks Jaichim Carridin and Dain Bornhald are both alcoholics.
Wil Hunt
2005-08-19 00:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rajiv Mote
Whitecloaks Jaichim Carridin and Dain Bornhald are both alcoholics.
Not to be a nitpicker.. but Jaichim *was* an alchoholic.. :P
--
Wil Hunt
Geek in training.
Jack of few trades, master of none.
Dan Weiner
2005-08-19 00:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rajiv Mote
Whitecloaks Jaichim Carridin and Dain Bornhald are both alcoholics.
I'm not so sure about Carridin---he might just be knocking back too many
due to the stress of being scared shitless of the DO and his minions.
We've no real evidence he was a drinker *before* the DF Social.

Other alcoholics:

One of the Redarms---en route to Ebou Dar, Elayne "orders" the Redarms
to get rid of his alcohol.

And one of Perrin's Two Rivers men, either a Congar or a Coplin, I think.
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Rajiv Mote
2005-08-19 02:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Rajiv Mote
Whitecloaks Jaichim Carridin and Dain Bornhald are both alcoholics.
I'm not so sure about Carridin---he might just be knocking back too many
due to the stress of being scared shitless of the DO and his minions.
We've no real evidence he was a drinker *before* the DF Social.
True. I'm not quite sure what the technical definition of "alcoholic"
is, so let's just say "abuser of alcohol," then. (Because Dain could
just be driven to drink by the circumstances around his father's death,
and even Thom had a spell, after Dena's death, when he lost himself in
his cups...)
Dan Weiner
2005-08-19 03:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rajiv Mote
True. I'm not quite sure what the technical definition of "alcoholic"
is, so let's just say "abuser of alcohol," then. (Because Dain could
just be driven to drink by the circumstances around his father's death,
and even Thom had a spell, after Dena's death, when he lost himself in
his cups...)
Good point. Anyway, the original question was:

1) why don't we see any alcoholics? Because although there are plenty
of hard drinkers / alcohol abusers, the concept of alcohol addiction
doesn't seem to exist in Randland, so we can't really make that
diagnosis. (Note addiction in general *does* exist: saidar/din and the
TP are addictive.)

2) How come Rand isn't tanked 24/7 from all that wine? Several reasons:

a) He's got a high tolerance: a muscular, 6'4" man can take a lot of
wine before he starts to feel it, and Rand has the added advantage of a
lot of experience.

b) He doesn't *drink* all that much: usually, wine is just there to
hold, sip, fidget with, and provide an excuse for lots of pointless
prose. The only time we see characters finish their cups of wine
without screwing around is when they're nervous.

c) No way he drinks more than one cup of wine in the morning (ie before
sword practice).

d) Clearly, he can handle a cup of wine, by (a), and he probably doesn't
drink more than one in an hour, so no more than a cup of wine should be
in his system at a time.

e) He's a badass. If the French can handle it, the Lord of the Morning,
Champion of the Light and All That Crap can certainly handle it. :P
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Brian Roux
2005-08-19 04:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
d) Clearly, he can handle a cup of wine, by (a), and he probably doesn't
drink more than one in an hour, so no more than a cup of wine should be
in his system at a time.
e) He's a badass. If the French can handle it, the Lord of the Morning,
Champion of the Light and All That Crap can certainly handle it. :P
Not only that, but it would be much more common to drink wine regularly
in the randland time period similar to how it would be more common to
drink wine with meals / as a beverage in previous centuries in absence
of soda.

Besides, what else is he going to drink, tea? ^_~

~ Brian
Rast
2005-08-19 05:25:13 UTC
Permalink
(f) He is; Jordan isn't explicit about it, but the hints are there.
--
"Ruleless 'law' will be a political weapon and control of the
judiciary will therefore be a political prize. 'Democracy' will
consist of the chaotic struggle to influence decision makers who are
not responsive to elections." -- Robert Bork
Tim Bruening
2010-03-23 07:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rast
(f) He is; Jordan isn't explicit about it, but the hints are there.
You say that alcohol contributes to Rand's increasingly anti-social behavior?
David Chapman
2005-08-19 09:07:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
1) why don't we see any alcoholics? Because although there are plenty
of hard drinkers / alcohol abusers, the concept of alcohol addiction
doesn't seem to exist in Randland, so we can't really make that
diagnosis.
If alcoholism exists but nobody wants to talk about it, there's a good
chance that nobody is inclined to give alcoholics charity or even the time
of day. In our society alcoholics can cope to some degree, but in that kind
of society I imagine they'd rapidly end up destitute and dead in that order.
Post by Dan Weiner
2) How come Rand isn't tanked 24/7 from all that wine?
The hangover is no bar to my call. Ask Birgitte.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-19 10:41:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 03:28:55 GMT, Dan Weiner
Post by Dan Weiner
b) He doesn't *drink* all that much: usually, wine is just there to
hold, sip, fidget with, and provide an excuse for lots of pointless
prose. The only time we see characters finish their cups of wine
without screwing around is when they're nervous.
It'll mostly be light wine, too. Not the 11-14% alcohol by volume stuff
that we know. The thing is, in Randland, as in any pre-industrial urban
society, there is no real alternative to drinking alcohol. Tea doesn't
exist yet, drinking water raw is a short road to dysentery and a really
unpleasant death (for whole towns at once, no less). In the old days,
brewers would make at least three different kinds of beer, varying from
light through middle to heavy beer, and a percent or two to 10. Wine
similarly is generally thought to have been mostly around the 7-8 percent
mark, given the yeasts they employed then.

Jasper
Therese Noren
2005-08-19 11:35:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
The thing is, in Randland, as in any pre-industrial urban
society, there is no real alternative to drinking alcohol. Tea doesn't
exist yet
It's been a while since I read the books, but I seem to remember Aes
Sedai tea parties. They also drink kaf.

Otherwise, you're entirely right.

/Therese Norén
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-19 21:43:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Therese Noren
Post by Jasper Janssen
The thing is, in Randland, as in any pre-industrial urban
society, there is no real alternative to drinking alcohol. Tea doesn't
exist yet
It's been a while since I read the books, but I seem to remember Aes
Sedai tea parties. They also drink kaf.
Otherwise, you're entirely right.
Yeah. I know. I actually thought of that before hitting send, but I didn't
have the energy to rephrase my post.


Somehow, this became an extremely long post. Wow. and vaguely on-topic,
too.

That's of course cause they're not exactly pre-industrial -- they're also
the survivors of a catastrophically destroyed *post*industrial
civilisation, with several attempts at industrialisation in between. *And*
I think they're actually more in the early 17th century timeline
organisation-wise, which is really already starting to industrialise in
some ways.

Sea trade to The East and The West, as we in our timeline start getting in
the 15th century, is probably one of the first major outflows in our
timeline. You need a whole heck of a lot of manpower and knowledge in one
place to be able to and *want to* build oceangoing sailing ships. You also
need a fair bit of spare capital that just doesn't appear in Medieval
feudal subsistence farming. You need *cities*.


By the early 17th century, the process is well underway: In the
Netherlands we get Leeghwater[1] draining swamps and lakes left and right
to provide Lebensraum (And doing to our overly wet farmland what
irrigation does for deserts, with similar improvements in yield), and at
the turn of the century some unlucky (since he didn't get feelthy rich off
it) miller's son developed a way to hook a saw to a windmill and get an
automatic feed -- creating the first powersaws and a 30 fold or so speed
increase over two men with a big-ass saw.

By the end of the 17th century, the Zaanstreek alone holds over 400
sawmills (there are 5 left in the whole country, now), which are going
permanently to make planks -- mostly for ships -- out of the Baltic wood
imported from Scandinavia. The Zaanstreek, at that time, is one big
thriving industrial zone, without a steam engine in sight. It's where
Peter -- later Czar Peter the Great -- came incognito to learn (ie, steal)
the secrets of building ships. It's also the one thing that cause the
Netherlands to have its Golden Age then, the merchant fleet in particular,
backed by the best Navy (quality-wise, if not in quantity[3]) in Europe
(and thus probably in the world).


In France, somebody is digging a big-ass and difficult canal running
between the Atlantic coast and the Mediterranean across a small mountain
pass using a bunch of locks, providing France's riverboats and barges with
Med access despite the war with Spain which makes it nigh-impossible to
sail the pillars of Hercules.


In Sweden, production of pig/cast-iron and forged steel is industrialising
into giant concerns (especially under the demand for cannons, swords, etc
in the various wars in Europe), blast furnaces going 24/7, especially
after the introduction of rolling mills (what was it, mid 17th century?
Post Gustavus Adolphus, I think, but not by very much) which upped the
forging capacity tenfold, and kept Sweden an economic powerhouse even if
its military and political might never again matched that it had Gustav II
Adolf. 1/3 of Europe's iron production was in Sweden, and they only
allowed finished products out (iron cast into shape, or steel), not the
raw iron, so they capitalised on that mightily.


Basically, the Industrial Revolution does not start with steam engines --
that's the middle bit. It starts well before that, first with mostly human
labour, and then with wind and water (Sweden, even then, used hydro
extensively).

Randland is somewhat confusingly placed -- they have cities, they're not
at war, mostly, but they don't seem to have a big thriving merchant class
ready to invest in all sorts of crazy schemes, or at least in Great Big
Fucking Assloads of luxury goods[2]. They don't have places of higher
learning even for the nobility, let alone richer merchant sons, except the
Aes Sedai. It takes Rand to set up the universities. Once Rand does so,
they proceed *within the freaking year* to have a prototype steam engine
that only blows up once very so often (and, hello, not that hard to solve.
It's called a safety valve, and it's crude technology compared to the
pistons), not to mention all sort of other nifty things.

One of the things that wealthy citizens -- be they merchant class or
nobility -- do first when they get the opportunity is provide their
children with education, however such things are measured in the time.
Ancient Greece had its natural philosophers and their students, Rome had
(first) those same natural philosophers and slave tutors from Greece, from
the first millennium or so there is the Church, and then in the 1300s to
1500s we start seeing schools and universities again, successful enough
that some survived to the present day.

Randlanders.. don't follow the pattern. They've got long range (extremely
long range) trade, it's even fairly cheap (since frex Saldaean ice-peppers
(was that it?) are expensive on the other side of the continent, but not
worth their weight in gold), and fairly safe (since, well, no major wars
until recently for a whole 20 years, and that one only covered half the
continent). Basically, there's not as much wealth around as it seems there
should be.


Jasper (</ramble>) Janssen

[1] Ironically named, n'est-ce pas?

[2] Tulips.

[3] I was thinking the other day while reading up on Michiel De Ruyter,
Maarten Tromp, Witte de With and Piet Heijn (Piet Heijn, Piet Heijn, Piet
Heijn zijn naam is klein, zijn daden benne groot), that several of the
events in their various careers sounded a lot like some of the things that
happen to Honor Harrington.
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-20 08:24:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:47:05 GMT, Dan Weiner
*snip*
[3] I was thinking the other day while reading up on Michiel De Ruyter,
Maarten Tromp, Witte de With and Piet Heijn (Piet Heijn, Piet Heijn, Piet
Heijn zijn naam is klein, zijn daden benne groot), that several of the
events in their various careers sounded a lot like some of the things that
happen to Honor Harrington.
What the hell? Are you blazed or what? You realize this is a work of
fiction, right? Did you wander in here from alt.history.nitpicking?
Yes, I do realize that's a work of fiction. My point being that it sounds
like Weber took some inspiration from our navy, as well as the british
one. What the fuck was your point?


Jasper
Dan Weiner
2005-08-20 17:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Yes, I do realize that's a work of fiction. My point being that it sounds
like Weber took some inspiration from our navy, as well as the british
one. What the fuck was your point?
Weber? Who is Weber? You never mention him in your post. Surely not
Max Weber?
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Dave Smith
2005-08-20 17:23:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Jasper Janssen
Yes, I do realize that's a work of fiction. My point being that it sounds
like Weber took some inspiration from our navy, as well as the british
one. What the fuck was your point?
Weber? Who is Weber? You never mention him in your post. Surely not
Max Weber?
In case you're being ignorant, and not sarcastic, he *did* mention Honor
Harrington, who is a character of David Weber.
--
Dave Smith
Dan Weiner
2005-08-20 18:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
In case you're being ignorant, and not sarcastic, he *did* mention Honor
Harrington, who is a character of David Weber.
Oh! ... to be honest, I didn't even read that footnote too carefully;
it was only quoted to demonstrate the ridiculous tone of his whole post.

"It's a work of fiction" referred to WoT, not Weber.... I was
criticizing his obnoxious attempt to place WoT in history, not the
content of the part I quoted.
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-20 23:30:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:41:42 GMT, Dan Weiner
Post by Dan Weiner
"It's a work of fiction" referred to WoT, not Weber.... I was
criticizing his obnoxious attempt to place WoT in history, not the
content of the part I quoted.
You know what? It wasn't even fucking written in response to you. I don't
recognise your name, you've only got 80 posts in the group spread over 27
threads, and if all you're here for is to criticise your elders in that
amazingly condescending way go and bleeding well do it somewhere else. I
don't give a shit what you in particular might or might not want to read.
After you've contributed for a few years in ways that stand out
positively, then I'll care. I have no doubt that many of the regulars out
there thought it was a longwinded piece of crap -- hell, that's what I
felt when re-reading it for spelling errors -- but you haven't yet earned
the right to be snotty.


Jasper
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-20 23:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
You know what? It wasn't even fucking written in response to you. I don't
[etc]

Wow. Way to push my buttons, dude.


Jasper
Frank van Schie
2005-08-21 00:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Jasper Janssen
You know what? It wasn't even fucking written in response to you. I don't
[etc]
Wow. Way to push my buttons, dude.
Indeed. Unclench. Not worthy.
--
Frank
Bill Griffiths
2005-08-21 01:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Sources close to the investigation reveal that, on Sat, 20 Aug 2005
18:41:42 GMT, Dan Weiner
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Dave Smith
In case you're being ignorant, and not sarcastic, he *did* mention Honor
Harrington, who is a character of David Weber.
Oh! ... to be honest, I didn't even read that footnote too carefully;
it was only quoted to demonstrate the ridiculous tone of his whole post.
"It's a work of fiction" referred to WoT, not Weber.... I was
criticizing his obnoxious attempt to place WoT in history, not the
content of the part I quoted.
Mind explaining what is obnoxious about a thoughtful, informative,
coherent, and insult-free post?
--
Bill Griffiths
"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no such thing as justice." Hobbes
Dan Weiner
2005-08-20 17:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Can't stand it when folks become all insightful and over-your-head-ish?
If there's a word for "insightful and over-your-head-ish": "pedantic".
But I'd file this one under "pretentious".
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Emma Pease
2005-08-23 00:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
Can't stand it when folks become all insightful and over-your-head-ish?
If there's a word for "insightful and over-your-head-ish": "pedantic".
But I'd file this one under "pretentious".
How so? I suspect much of what he said is common knowledge in the
Netherlands. Admittedly students in the US are less likely to have
heard of van Tromp's broom or of the tulip craze.

Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-23 13:33:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:53:22 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
Post by Emma Pease
How so? I suspect much of what he said is common knowledge in the
Netherlands. Admittedly students in the US are less likely to have
Well, somewhat common, at least. I'm not, after all, talking to a group
full of intellectual weaklings here.
Post by Emma Pease
heard of van Tromp's broom or of the tulip craze.
They don't teach you guys the tulip craze? That's a shame, it's such a
wonderful story. And quite possibly the very best precedent in history for
the .com craze, except it was much, much worse. In one year, tulip bulbs
went from being imported and unknown to really good specimens being worth
several major houses (and by major I mean 4-5 floor townhouses with plenty
of room for servants, think Upstairs/Downstairs), or even complete country
estates, and then within *days* the market collapsed and they were worth
approximately nothing again.

There were people using their entire every last cent -- not just life
savings, but everything they owned -- to buy just one bulb, because they
could only ever become worth more, and they might split off some new bulbs
if you had a green thumb.

It's interesting, by the way, that this happened right during our golden
age, post war -- there was so much free cash floating around looking for a
place to invest it was almost inevitable. You see more or less the same
pattern with our own stock market crashes.

It's the very best cautionary tale against getting caught up in hype that
you can imagine -- they didn't actually teach it any at my school either,
but at least Discovery Channel repairs the damage a bit :)


Jasper
Aaron Davies
2005-08-23 22:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:53:22 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
Post by Emma Pease
How so? I suspect much of what he said is common knowledge in the
Netherlands. Admittedly students in the US are less likely to have
Well, somewhat common, at least. I'm not, after all, talking to a group
full of intellectual weaklings here.
Post by Emma Pease
heard of van Tromp's broom or of the tulip craze.
They don't teach you guys the tulip craze? That's a shame, it's such a
wonderful story. And quite possibly the very best precedent in history for
the .com craze, except it was much, much worse. In one year, tulip bulbs
went from being imported and unknown to really good specimens being worth
several major houses (and by major I mean 4-5 floor townhouses with plenty
of room for servants, think Upstairs/Downstairs), or even complete country
estates, and then within *days* the market collapsed and they were worth
approximately nothing again.
They don't go into any great detail (it may get a sentence or two in a
general high school history textbook), but I'd think most educated
people here would have heard of it, especially after the .com mess.
--
Aaron Davies
Opinions expressed are solely those of a random number generator.
Magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri.
Ho! Ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Thrust!
Tim Bruening
2010-03-23 07:47:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Davies
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:53:22 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
Post by Emma Pease
How so? I suspect much of what he said is common knowledge in the
Netherlands. Admittedly students in the US are less likely to have
Well, somewhat common, at least. I'm not, after all, talking to a group
full of intellectual weaklings here.
Post by Emma Pease
heard of van Tromp's broom or of the tulip craze.
They don't teach you guys the tulip craze? That's a shame, it's such a
wonderful story. And quite possibly the very best precedent in history for
the .com craze, except it was much, much worse. In one year, tulip bulbs
went from being imported and unknown to really good specimens being worth
several major houses (and by major I mean 4-5 floor townhouses with plenty
of room for servants, think Upstairs/Downstairs), or even complete country
estates, and then within *days* the market collapsed and they were worth
approximately nothing again.
They don't go into any great detail (it may get a sentence or two in a
general high school history textbook), but I'd think most educated
people here would have heard of it, especially after the .com mess.
My newspapers said nothing about Dutch tulips after the .com crash. Why would
any editor even think to investigate flowers in the wake of a crash involving
internet companies? Why would anyone normally think to connect flowers to high
tech?
Frank van Schie
2005-08-23 22:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Emma Pease
heard of van Tromp's broom or of the tulip craze.
They don't teach you guys the tulip craze? That's a shame, it's such a
wonderful story. And quite possibly the very best precedent in history for
the .com craze, except it was much, much worse. In one year, tulip bulbs
went from being imported and unknown to really good specimens being worth
several major houses (and by major I mean 4-5 floor townhouses with plenty
of room for servants, think Upstairs/Downstairs), or even complete country
estates, and then within *days* the market collapsed and they were worth
approximately nothing again.
Hell, *I* haven't heard of the tulip craze.

If it was covered in high school history at all, I think I know which
teacher. He's the one I never learned anything from, because all he did
was dictate. Was too busy writing to know what the hell he was even
talking about. Plus my mindset wrt history was a bit different in those
years. Pity.
Post by Jasper Janssen
There were people using their entire every last cent -- not just life
savings, but everything they owned -- to buy just one bulb, because they
could only ever become worth more, and they might split off some new bulbs
if you had a green thumb.
It's interesting, by the way, that this happened right during our golden
age, post war -- there was so much free cash floating around looking for a
place to invest it was almost inevitable. You see more or less the same
pattern with our own stock market crashes.
It's the very best cautionary tale against getting caught up in hype that
you can imagine -- they didn't actually teach it any at my school either,
but at least Discovery Channel repairs the damage a bit :)
Ah. More Discovery channel!

(this sounds like a thing for the Connections show with that James Burke
dude)
--
Frank
Jennifer Winters
2005-08-24 00:48:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:53:22 +0000 (UTC), Emma Pease
They don't teach you guys the tulip craze? That's a shame, it's such a
wonderful story. And quite possibly the very best precedent in
history for
Post by Jasper Janssen
the .com craze, except it was much, much worse. In one year, tulip bulbs
went from being imported and unknown to really good specimens being worth
several major houses (and by major I mean 4-5 floor townhouses with plenty
of room for servants, think Upstairs/Downstairs), or even complete country
estates, and then within *days* the market collapsed and they were worth
approximately nothing again.
Not in school, no. I learned about it--this is crazy--because my mom
is a painter and has a thing for Flemish/Dutch artists. Especially
Vermeer, but that's another matter. She has books upon books of art
paintings and in there somewhere is a bunch of paintings of tulips.
With an explanation of why they were so valuable that people were
paying artists lots of moola to paint them. Fun story.
--
Jennifer Winters

Nerd in babe's clothing.
Whole-body console game action.
Tim Bruening
2010-03-23 07:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Basically, the Industrial Revolution does not start with steam engines --
that's the middle bit. It starts well before that, first with mostly human
labour, and then with wind and water (Sweden, even then, used hydro
extensively).
Randland is somewhat confusingly placed -- they have cities, they're not
at war, mostly, but they don't seem to have a big thriving merchant class
ready to invest in all sorts of crazy schemes, or at least in Great Big
Fucking Assloads of luxury goods[2]. They don't have places of higher
learning even for the nobility, let alone richer merchant sons, except the
Aes Sedai. It takes Rand to set up the universities. Once Rand does so,
they proceed *within the freaking year* to have a prototype steam engine
that only blows up once very so often (and, hello, not that hard to solve.
It's called a safety valve, and it's crude technology compared to the
pistons), not to mention all sort of other nifty things.
One of the things that wealthy citizens -- be they merchant class or
nobility -- do first when they get the opportunity is provide their
children with education, however such things are measured in the time.
Ancient Greece had its natural philosophers and their students, Rome had
(first) those same natural philosophers and slave tutors from Greece, from
the first millennium or so there is the Church, and then in the 1300s to
1500s we start seeing schools and universities again, successful enough
that some survived to the present day.
Randlanders.. don't follow the pattern. They've got long range (extremely
long range) trade, it's even fairly cheap (since frex Saldaean ice-peppers
(was that it?) are expensive on the other side of the continent, but not
worth their weight in gold), and fairly safe (since, well, no major wars
until recently for a whole 20 years, and that one only covered half the
continent). Basically, there's not as much wealth around as it seems there
should be.
Channelers of both genders have recently rediscovered Traveling, which will
greatly facilitate trade.
Dan Weiner
2005-08-19 20:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Tea doesn't exist yet
Good point--- I never noticed it before, but NOBODY in the books drinks tea!
drinking water raw is a short road to dysentery and a really
unpleasant death
Wow, you're right again... there isn't a single mention of drinking water!

Thanks for your input!
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-19 21:44:34 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:54:44 GMT, Dan Weiner
Post by Dan Weiner
Tea doesn't exist yet
Good point--- I never noticed it before, but NOBODY in the books drinks tea!
drinking water raw is a short road to dysentery and a really
unpleasant death
Wow, you're right again... there isn't a single mention of drinking water!
Did they do so in the city? Countryside and well water is reasonably safe.
Urban water is Plague Central.


Jasper
Rajiv Mote
2005-08-19 22:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:54:44 GMT, Dan Weiner
Post by Dan Weiner
Tea doesn't exist yet
Good point--- I never noticed it before, but NOBODY in the books drinks tea!
drinking water raw is a short road to dysentery and a really
unpleasant death
Wow, you're right again... there isn't a single mention of drinking water!
Did they do so in the city? Countryside and well water is reasonably safe.
Urban water is Plague Central.
Jasper
There are examples in the modern day Third World where the drinking
water supply is pretty bad, but urban civilizations continue, even
flourish. (I'm thinking of the sprawling Dharavi slum in Mumbai, for
instance...) Yes, disease runs rampant, but life does go on, and not
necessarily due to modern medical intervention. People's systems just
get tougher.

As for Randland, we've seen that the town of Malden has an aqueduct-fed
cistern, and I think it's mentioned that it is used as drinking water.
(This may figure in to Perrin's plans for the Shaido, but that's a
different KoT discussion.)

We've also had mention of an urban drinking-water supply, though the
city's size is not known:

[CoT Ch.11
As Birgitte had pointed out, one of the wort Darkfriends she had ever
met, during the Trolloc Wars, was a mild-as-milk lad who jumped at loud
noises. And poisoned an entire city's water supply.]

Then again, who knows what level of industrialization Randland had
attained at the start of the Trolloc Wars... *shrug*
Tim Bruening
2010-03-23 07:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:54:44 GMT, Dan Weiner
Post by Dan Weiner
Tea doesn't exist yet
Good point--- I never noticed it before, but NOBODY in the books drinks tea!
drinking water raw is a short road to dysentery and a really
unpleasant death
Wow, you're right again... there isn't a single mention of drinking water!
Did they do so in the city? Countryside and well water is reasonably safe.
Urban water is Plague Central.
I've read of waterskins among the Aiel.
Wil Hunt
2005-08-19 22:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
Tea doesn't exist yet
Good point--- I never noticed it before, but NOBODY in the books drinks tea!
drinking water raw is a short road to dysentery and a really
unpleasant death
Wow, you're right again... there isn't a single mention of drinking water!
Thanks for your input!
What about Rand and Mat drinking water from the fountains during their
first visit to Rhuidian?
--
Wil Hunt
Geek in training.
Jack of few trades, master of none.
jason.powell
2005-08-20 08:23:01 UTC
Permalink
In "Crown of Swords" Mat and Birgitte drink tea alot of days sitting across
the street from the "Kin" house in Ebou Dar. He went as far as to complain
about the tea constantly. One of those with him was even drinking
Lemonade...although it wasn't called that in the book. There's dozens of
times in the books mentioning tea and water and punches (which aren't
necessarily alcoholic). I've had some wine punches before that were weak
enough I could have drank myself to the brim and not feel much effect.

Anyways, the last message is the obvious answer....but there is some
specific examples I remembered where tea and water and other non-alch drinks
are mentioned. I would also say that the higher in society you go, the more
wine and such drinks you will find. I'd imagine water is almost all you'd
drink on a farm even in "Randland" (never heard that term before). And that
from a well (which tastes lousy but is usually pretty clean). I'd imagine
alot of Lords and Ladies are pretty tanked by the time evening rolls around
on a daily basis, or at least pretty tipsy. They don't have to get up to
work in the morning after all...
I was being sarcastic.
EVERYONE DRINKS TEA.
EVERYONE DRINKS WATER, TOO.
Sheesh.
Thanks makes more sense then. :)
--
Wil Hunt
Geek in training.
Jack of few trades, master of none.
Tim Bruening
2010-03-23 07:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rajiv Mote
Post by k***@gmail.com
Hi rasfwrj!
I was thinking about drinking. alcohol. everybody does that in randland
it seems, all the time. spiced wine, chilled wine, hot wine, mulled
wine. Why don't we see any alcoholics? why don't we see lines like
"Rand fought the Blademaster hard, dancing from form to form. Laughing
at the Monkey became Tickling the Maid, and sweat was heavy on his
forehead. But it was not Saidin making him dizzy today. 'Oh, I wonder
if three mugs of wine before a battle really sharpens your senses as
they say', he thought".
just a random thought from a random poster.
Whitecloaks Jaichim Carridin and Dain Bornhald are both alcoholics.
I've seen brandy forced down Jaichim's throat!
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