Mesaana (Spoilers!!!)

[moriah]

Okay, I hope I put enough spaces here...

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( If that wasn't enough, goodness...)

I read the book in 24 hours, hoping Mesaana would be truly revealed.
While she wasn't, I think several passages eliminate some suspects.

We had a Tarna POV -- I think she eliminates herself as a suspect
here.

Duhara is Domani -- that pretty much eliminates her.

No mention of Danelle at all -- unless eliminating all suspects but
her was a clue, there weren't many clues pointing to her in this.

New Brown sister with blue eyes mentioned -- Bennae. While she would
qualify as having been seen "on-screen" before, there were no clues
pointing to her before CoT. She does wear silk, and you might say
she was more tolerant of Egwene than she had to be. Against her:
very little mention in previous books and her extensive knowledge on
post-Breaking history.

Tsutama is described as being "stunningly beautiful", whereas we are
told that Mesaana's "big blue eyes" are her best feature.

However, in my personal opinion there was new evidence to support my
"looney" theory that Silviana is Mesaana -- mainly that Silviana has
"large" eyes.

My reasons for my looney theory from previous books are below:

Silviana has not had any information given on her background at all.
Almost every other sister has been associated with a country, an
accent, or some other kind of background. It's as though she
magically appeared and was given high status. No one has recounted
previous incidents with her except Leane, who says she is "fair" in
this book, but that could be things she picked up while in the Tower
itself.

The MoN is not a glorified position with the Aes Sedai, but it is an
influential one. She gets to corrupt young girls -- just like
Mesaana used to.

Mesaana is noted to say that she doesn't enjoy giving pain, like
Semirhage. She will if it's neccessary but will not take pleasure
in it. Silviana doesn't seem to take any pleasure at all with
sisters (disliking being distracted), and she's not being vengeful
with Egwene.

Lastly, the line where Mesaana pretty much said Alviarin could see the
daily penances as punishment from Mesaana is just too much
foreshadowing to ignore.

[David Chapman]

Post by moriah
Okay, I hope I put enough spaces here...
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( If that wasn't enough, goodness...)
I read the book in 24 hours, hoping Mesaana would be truly revealed.
While she wasn't, I think several passages eliminate some suspects.
Duhara is Domani -- that pretty much eliminates her.

Why? It's not stopping Graendal.

Post by moriah
Tsutama is described as being "stunningly beautiful", whereas we are
told that Mesaana's "big blue eyes" are her best feature.

You are presuming that Mesaana is not disguising herself in the Tower when
we know that she is. This invalidates all of your theories - though I don't
believe Tsutama is Mesaana simply because as a beautiful woman she stands
out.

[Dave Rothgery]

In article <***@pipex.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Post by David Chapman

Post by moriah
Okay, I hope I put enough spaces here...
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.
.
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.
.
( If that wasn't enough, goodness...)
I read the book in 24 hours, hoping Mesaana would be truly revealed.
While she wasn't, I think several passages eliminate some suspects.
Duhara is Domani -- that pretty much eliminates her.

Why? It's not stopping Graendal.

Maining a disguise long-term is difficult if the disguise looks nothing
like you really do. That's one reason why Semirhage's impersonation of
Tuon couldn't hold up.

[wyrick]

Post by Dave Rothgery
says...

Post by David Chapman

Post by moriah
Okay, I hope I put enough spaces here...
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.
.
( If that wasn't enough, goodness...)
I read the book in 24 hours, hoping Mesaana would be truly revealed.
While she wasn't, I think several passages eliminate some suspects.
Duhara is Domani -- that pretty much eliminates her.

Why? It's not stopping Graendal.

Maining a disguise long-term is difficult if the disguise looks nothing
like you really do. That's one reason why Semirhage's impersonation of
Tuon couldn't hold up.

Hi Dave,

My impression was that Cadsuane (or Nynaeve) struck out at her, causing
the illusion to flicker. As for the illusion not holding up, this may
only apply when you touch the other person (as Alviarin does to
Mesaana's dress).

JW

[Dave Rothgery]

Post by wyrick

Post by Dave Rothgery
says...

Post by David Chapman

Post by moriah
Okay, I hope I put enough spaces here...
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.
.
.
( If that wasn't enough, goodness...)
I read the book in 24 hours, hoping Mesaana would be truly revealed.
While she wasn't, I think several passages eliminate some suspects.
Duhara is Domani -- that pretty much eliminates her.

Why? It's not stopping Graendal.

Maining a disguise long-term is difficult if the disguise looks nothing
like you really do. That's one reason why Semirhage's impersonation of
Tuon couldn't hold up.

Hi Dave,
My impression was that Cadsuane (or Nynaeve) struck out at her, causing
the illusion to flicker. As for the illusion not holding up, this may
only apply when you touch the other person (as Alviarin does to
Mesaana's dress).

Err... I think I may have given the wrong impression there. Semirhage
couldn't maintain Tuon long-term because the great difference between
their actual appearances meant that
1) As per above, casual contact will cause the Illision to flutter.
2) The larger the physical differences between forms are, the more
likely it is that you'll act in way that you shouldn't (like the very
tall Semirhage ducking under something that the very short Tuon wouldn't
have to).

In the short run, Semirhage's Illusion was discovered before either
factor came into play.

Of course, the third reason (and why no one's tried to impersonate a
well-known figure for more than flashes) is because even if you know
nearly everything about the person you're impersonating, you're still
not them.

[David Wachsmuth]

Post by wyrick

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Hi Dave,
My impression was that Cadsuane (or Nynaeve) struck out at her, causing
the illusion to flicker. As for the illusion not holding up, this may
only apply when you touch the other person (as Alviarin does to
Mesaana's dress).

I think it's more likely that one of Cadsuane's ter'angreal interfered
with the illusion, since how would Cadsuane have known who was
channelling among the Seanchan and how would she have known what kind
of weave to try to disrupt? Cadsuane said she didn't know who was
channelling, but she could do something about it once she got closer.
Why would she need to be close to channel the illusion away? We know
she has a foxhead-like ter'angreal - maybe it can be extended to a
given radius, or projected in a given direction, etc. That's the only
thing that seems to me to square with her being able to disrupt unknown
channelling (saidin or saidar, and who knows what kind of weaves) at
only a short distance.

-DW

[Demon]

Another possibility...

KD, Chap 1, bottom of page 114-top of page 115.

"Morvrin had begun tapping her round chin with a fingertip as though
unaware of anyone else. She might well have been. Morvrin was like
that."

Interesting tid bit about Morvrin's personality, or pointer to
Mesaana's secret identity?

[Michael Meier]

Post by David Wachsmuth

Post by wyrick

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Hi Dave,
My impression was that Cadsuane (or Nynaeve) struck out at her, causing
the illusion to flicker. As for the illusion not holding up, this may
only apply when you touch the other person (as Alviarin does to
Mesaana's dress).

I think it's more likely that one of Cadsuane's ter'angreal interfered
with the illusion, since how would Cadsuane have known who was
channelling among the Seanchan and how would she have known what kind
of weave to try to disrupt? Cadsuane said she didn't know who was
channelling, but she could do something about it once she got closer.

Cadsuane does know the direction of someone who is channeling though.
Once she is close enough one of her angreal (a golden bird) shows that.

From WH Ch The Hummingbirds secret:
#quote
A second golden bird, a swallow, hung from her hand by its thin chain.
"There," she said, pointing in the direction it seemed to be flying. A
pity she could not say how far away the Power had been channeled, or
whether by a man or a woman, but the direction would have to do...
#end quote

Michael

[Sorcha]

In article <***@pipex.net>, jedit_ojanen8
@hotmail.com said...

Post by David Chapman

Post by moriah
Okay, I hope I put enough spaces here...
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.
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.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
( If that wasn't enough, goodness...)
I read the book in 24 hours, hoping Mesaana would be truly revealed.
While she wasn't, I think several passages eliminate some suspects.
Duhara is Domani -- that pretty much eliminates her.

Why? It's not stopping Graendal.

Post by moriah
Tsutama is described as being "stunningly beautiful", whereas we are
told that Mesaana's "big blue eyes" are her best feature.

You are presuming that Mesaana is not disguising herself in the Tower when
we know that she is. This invalidates all of your theories - though I don't
believe Tsutama is Mesaana simply because as a beautiful woman she stands
out.

I'd be more inclined not to believe that Tsutsama is Mesaana because
Tsutsama has a detailed backstory that goes back at least twenty
years and is seen to be recognisably the same person as when she left
the Tower during the 'Vileness'. I belive she shows up in New Spring
as well, which implies that she ain't a Forsken in disguise.

Sorcha

[Lancelot]

Post by Sorcha
I'd be more inclined not to believe that Tsutsama is Mesaana because
Tsutsama has a detailed backstory that goes back at least twenty
years and is seen to be recognisably the same person as when she left
the Tower during the 'Vileness'. I belive she shows up in New Spring
as well, which implies that she ain't a Forsken in disguise.
Sorcha

Two points:

1) Tsutsama was GONE from the tower for a long time, according to
Pavara's POV, and her personality has changed, according to Pavara's
POV. Which fis our bill for hunting Forsaken.

2) The very last scene in the Epilouge indicates that bonding Asha'man
is part of the Forsaken plan to "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule," as Taim
says. Tsutsama agrees to bonding men very quickly, and it surprises
Pavara how fast she does.

Tsutsama is Mesaana.

Lancelot

[zheemnookin]

Post by Lancelot
1) Tsutsama was GONE from the tower for a long time, according to
Pavara's POV, and her personality has changed, according to Pavara's
POV. Which fis our bill for hunting Forsaken.
2) The very last scene in the Epilouge indicates that bonding Asha'man
is part of the Forsaken plan to "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule," as Taim
says. Tsutsama agrees to bonding men very quickly, and it surprises
Pavara how fast she does.
Tsutsama is Mesaana.

Two problems, though: (1) she's stunning, while Mesaana is pretty plain
-- and I think Mesaana's disguise isn't too heavy-handed b/c Alviarin
seems to recognize her; and (2) I may be mistaken, but I was under the
impression that a disguised Mesaana was revealed at least several books
ago, while Tsutsama is a new character.

[Mitchell Swan]

Post by zheemnookin
seems to recognize her; and (2) I may be mistaken, but I was under the
impression that a disguised Mesaana was revealed at least several books
ago, while Tsutsama is a new character.

Tsutsama was in New Spring.

[zheemnookin]

Post by Mitchell Swan
Tsutsama was in New Spring.

I had no idea.

Still, though, didn't RJ say that he had already introduced Mesaana's
disguise? We know for certain that Mesaana wasn't masquerading as
Tsutsama in New Spring, and so she appears too early and too late in
the series for her to be Mesaana's disguise according to RJ's comment.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by moriah
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Mesaana is noted to say that she doesn't enjoy giving pain, like
Semirhage. She will if it's neccessary but will not take pleasure
in it. Silviana doesn't seem to take any pleasure at all with
sisters (disliking being distracted), and she's not being vengeful
with Egwene.

Counterevidence: Silviana eventually showed grudging respect for
Egwene. The Forsaken hardly ever do this, whether in disguise or not.
The only exception I can think of was when Moridin was praising some of
the new age weaves, and even that was thinking to himself.

-Bill E. Brooks

[Swithin]

Hey all, it's been a *really* long time.

I too think Mesaana is Silviana. There is one very telling new piece of
evidence to support this, as well. For some reason RJ's blog on
Dragonmount is only giving me up to his 10.06 post atm, but I believe
he replied to a question about Mesaana's identity with something akin
to "I believe what she did before the Breaking is floating around out
there somewhere."

What did she do? She was a teacher. In other words, she not only had
working knowledge of institutes of higher learning, but she was on
staff. She knew how to keep composure and authority around other
headstrong channelers (the Collam Daan was supposed to be like OP
grad-school, right?) As a teacher, she knew how to motivate and
manipulate students. Now we know Silviana is a harsh disciplinarian,
and especially painful (and vaguely familiar) to Alviarin (wonder why),
and that in itself is enough to cast doubt on her character. What
really convinces me, however, is her behaviour with Egwene.

Basically, Mesaana's goal is to screw up the chain of command in the
Tower. To this end, she created the split. Now is the time, with Egwene
in the Tower, to drive the final nail in that coffin. In reading all
the passages with Silviana and Egwene, what struck me was that instead
of breaking Egwene's spirit, Silviana built it up. Every word out of
Silviana's mouth, every initial cruelty, every grudging compliment,
every slipper-lashing - it was just what Egwene needed at that
particular moment in time, perfectly calculated for maximum effect.
Note that Egwene isn't ta'veren, she hasn't "drawn out" the appropriate
behaviour from Silviana. Without Silviana, or with the old, effective
Sheriam in her place, for instance, Egwene wouldn't have had nearly so
much fire. The unfair punishments, with complete deadpan delivery,
built up Egwene's righteous indignation. The pain built up her
self-confidence and spirit. Silviana even suggested to Egwene to
continue her behaviour, that it was expected of her and she was good to
deliver, by telling her she'd schedule her beatings in advance! What
better way to instill rebellion in someone, encouraging it without
showing your hand? Egwene was played like Yo Yo Ma's cello.

Mesaana is intimately familiar with student-psychology, something which
is warped by tradition and near cult-like ritual in the modern Tower.
Most of Silviana's comments and actions would play perfectly in
motivating a student through measured opposition, "challenging" them to
work harder, giving a headstrong individual an enemy to spite by
succeeding - only Egwene, not having taken part in any "secular"
education, couldn't recognize this for what it is, since AS seem to
reduce every learning issue to a student-by-student level, as they do
with blocks.

[David Chapman]

Post by Swithin
Hey all, it's been a *really* long time.
I too think Mesaana is Silviana. There is one very telling new piece of
evidence to support this, as well. For some reason RJ's blog on
Dragonmount is only giving me up to his 10.06 post atm, but I believe
he replied to a question about Mesaana's identity with something akin
to "I believe what she did before the Breaking is floating around out
there somewhere."
What did she do? She was a teacher.

No, she wasn't a teacher - not at the Collam Daan, anyway. Mesaana turned
to the Dark because they *refused* to let her teach there.

[Daniel Holm]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Swithin
Hey all, it's been a *really* long time.
I too think Mesaana is Silviana. There is one very telling new piece of
evidence to support this, as well. For some reason RJ's blog on
Dragonmount is only giving me up to his 10.06 post atm, but I believe
he replied to a question about Mesaana's identity with something akin
to "I believe what she did before the Breaking is floating around out
there somewhere."
What did she do? She was a teacher.

No, she wasn't a teacher - not at the Collam Daan, anyway. Mesaana turned
to the Dark because they *refused* to let her teach there.
From WOTFAQ "1.1.1 Who are the Forsaken? Where are they now?"

"MESAANA (F): Real name: Saine Tarasind. Was rejected by the Collam
Daan (a major research institution during the AOL), so instead of being
a researcher, she ended up a teacher, until she found a way to Teach
Them All! MUAHAHAH!"

--Daniel Holm

[Daniel Holm]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Swithin
Hey all, it's been a *really* long time.
I too think Mesaana is Silviana. There is one very telling new piece of
evidence to support this, as well. For some reason RJ's blog on
Dragonmount is only giving me up to his 10.06 post atm, but I believe
he replied to a question about Mesaana's identity with something akin
to "I believe what she did before the Breaking is floating around out
there somewhere."
What did she do? She was a teacher.

No, she wasn't a teacher - not at the Collam Daan, anyway. Mesaana turned
to the Dark because they *refused* to let her teach there.
From WOTFAQ "1.1.1: Who are the Forsaken? Where are they now?"

"MESAANA (F): Real name: Saine Tarasind. Was rejected by the Collam
Daan (a major research institution during the AOL), so instead of being

a researcher, she ended up a teacher, until she found a way to Teach
Them All! MUAHAHAH!"

[Daniel Holm]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Swithin
Hey all, it's been a *really* long time.
I too think Mesaana is Silviana. There is one very telling new piece of
evidence to support this, as well. For some reason RJ's blog on
Dragonmount is only giving me up to his 10.06 post atm, but I believe
he replied to a question about Mesaana's identity with something akin
to "I believe what she did before the Breaking is floating around out
there somewhere."
What did she do? She was a teacher.

No, she wasn't a teacher - not at the Collam Daan, anyway. Mesaana turned
to the Dark because they *refused* to let her teach there.

Urgh, craptastic Google groups.

No, you're wrong. Mesaana couldn't be a _researcher_ at the Collam
Daan. She was allowed to teach, though.

--Daniel Holm

[David Chapman]

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by David Chapman
No, she wasn't a teacher - not at the Collam Daan, anyway. Mesaana
turned to the Dark because they *refused* to let her teach there.

No, you're wrong. Mesaana couldn't be a _researcher_ at the Collam
Daan. She was allowed to teach, though.

OK, fair enough. In modern universities teachers tend to be researchers as
well, is all.

If you want clues as to who she is, it's worth reading the BBBA entry. One
interesting point is that she wanted "real power, not the appearance of it",
which suggests that if she could manage it she would pose as an Ajah head
rather than a Sitter if she were posing as either, but is more probably a
Sitter. Have any of the Ajahs recently acquired a new head?

The other point of note is that she raised mobs to tear down museums,
schools, and anything that represented the old order of education. If it's
been hinted that we should be looking at What Mesaana Did On Her Holidays In
The AOL, I think this is the key point. That would suggest that Mesaana was
behind, but not directly involved in, the schism in the Tower.

[Frank van Schie]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by David Chapman
No, she wasn't a teacher - not at the Collam Daan, anyway. Mesaana
turned to the Dark because they *refused* to let her teach there.

No, you're wrong. Mesaana couldn't be a _researcher_ at the Collam
Daan. She was allowed to teach, though.

OK, fair enough. In modern universities teachers tend to be researchers as
well, is all.
If you want clues as to who she is, it's worth reading the BBBA entry. One
interesting point is that she wanted "real power, not the appearance of it",
which suggests that if she could manage it she would pose as an Ajah head
rather than a Sitter if she were posing as either, but is more probably a
Sitter. Have any of the Ajahs recently acquired a new head?

Ajah head is more likely than a Sitter, yes, but Mistress of Novices
gives her a position of actual power, influencing all novices.
Especially in the case where sisters get sent there too, she could
probably turn a few women to the DO, or use Compulsion on them, whatever.

Of course, being a Brown is more likely due to her previous occupation
and the types of dresses she typically wears, and Silviana's a Red.

[Davian]

Spoiler space

Post by David Chapman

Post by Swithin
Hey all, it's been a *really* long time.
I too think Mesaana is Silviana. There is one very telling new piece of
evidence to support this, as well. For some reason RJ's blog on
Dragonmount is only giving me up to his 10.06 post atm, but I believe
he replied to a question about Mesaana's identity with something akin
to "I believe what she did before the Breaking is floating around out
there somewhere."
What did she do? She was a teacher.

No, she wasn't a teacher - not at the Collam Daan, anyway. Mesaana turned
to the Dark because they *refused* to let her teach there.

Yes, she was turned away from teaching in the most prestigious academy, but
she was still a teacher. Her Darkfriend thing was that she set up whole
schools to educate children on the glories of the Dark One. (And encouraged
them to kill their classmates who didn't learn fast enough.)

I don't think Silviana fits, but I don't see many better candidates either.

[Indigo Wombat]

Post by Davian
Spoiler space

Post by David Chapman

Post by Swithin
Hey all, it's been a *really* long time.
I too think Mesaana is Silviana. There is one very telling new
piece of evidence to support this, as well. For some reason RJ's
blog on Dragonmount is only giving me up to his 10.06 post atm, but
I believe he replied to a question about Mesaana's identity with
something akin to "I believe what she did before the Breaking is
floating around out there somewhere."
What did she do? She was a teacher.

No, she wasn't a teacher - not at the Collam Daan, anyway. Mesaana
turned to the Dark because they *refused* to let her teach there.

Yes, she was turned away from teaching in the most prestigious
academy, but she was still a teacher. Her Darkfriend thing was that
she set up whole schools to educate children on the glories of the
Dark One. (And encouraged them to kill their classmates who didn't
learn fast enough.)
I don't think Silviana fits, but I don't see many better candidates either.

One thing I just noticed, reading this theory of Mesaana = Silviana ...
anyone remember that random crazy old lady in T'A'R that talked to Egwene,
back in TDR? The one that most people assume was Lanfear, but a few people
conjecture that it was Mesaana? Silvie, was her name... Silvie, Silviana...
interesting....

--
The Indigo Wombat
Marsupial of Might

[Mike.Chauvet]

Post by David Chapman
No, she wasn't a teacher - not at the Collam Daan, anyway. Mesaana turned
to the Dark because they *refused* to let her teach there.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

Actually she had to teach after she was refused a position as a
researcher. She was pissed off that instead of making discoveries, she
would be disseminating other people's work to students.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Swithin
Hey all, it's been a *really* long time.
I too think Mesaana is Silviana. There is one very telling new piece of
evidence to support this, as well. For some reason RJ's blog on
Dragonmount is only giving me up to his 10.06 post atm, but I believe
he replied to a question about Mesaana's identity with something akin
to "I believe what she did before the Breaking is floating around out
there somewhere."
What did she do? She was a teacher. In other words, she not only had
working knowledge of institutes of higher learning, but she was on
staff. She knew how to keep composure and authority around other
headstrong channelers (the Collam Daan was supposed to be like OP
grad-school, right?) As a teacher, she knew how to motivate and
manipulate students. Now we know Silviana is a harsh disciplinarian,
and especially painful (and vaguely familiar) to Alviarin (wonder why),
and that in itself is enough to cast doubt on her character. What
really convinces me, however, is her behaviour with Egwene.

What color dresses does she wear? Alviarin saw Mesaana wearing a bronze
silk dress.

Post by Swithin
Basically, Mesaana's goal is to screw up the chain of command in the
Tower. To this end, she created the split. Now is the time, with Egwene
in the Tower, to drive the final nail in that coffin. In reading all
the passages with Silviana and Egwene, what struck me was that instead
of breaking Egwene's spirit, Silviana built it up. Every word out of
Silviana's mouth, every initial cruelty, every grudging compliment,
every slipper-lashing - it was just what Egwene needed at that
particular moment in time, perfectly calculated for maximum effect.
Note that Egwene isn't ta'veren, she hasn't "drawn out" the appropriate
behaviour from Silviana. Without Silviana, or with the old, effective
Sheriam in her place, for instance, Egwene wouldn't have had nearly so
much fire. The unfair punishments, with complete deadpan delivery,
built up Egwene's righteous indignation. The pain built up her
self-confidence and spirit. Silviana even suggested to Egwene to
continue her behaviour, that it was expected of her and she was good to
deliver, by telling her she'd schedule her beatings in advance! What
better way to instill rebellion in someone, encouraging it without
showing your hand? Egwene was played like Yo Yo Ma's cello.
Mesaana is intimately familiar with student-psychology, something which
is warped by tradition and near cult-like ritual in the modern Tower.
Most of Silviana's comments and actions would play perfectly in
motivating a student through measured opposition, "challenging" them to
work harder, giving a headstrong individual an enemy to spite by
succeeding - only Egwene, not having taken part in any "secular"
education, couldn't recognize this for what it is, since AS seem to
reduce every learning issue to a student-by-student level, as they do
with blocks.

In tGS, Silviana publically defies Elaida and is sentenced to execution.
Would Mesaana allow herself to be put in that position?

[moriah]

Yeah, spoilers....















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From the Collected Witterings of moriah, volume 2]

Post by David Chapman
You are presuming that Mesaana is not disguising herself in the

Tower when

Post by David Chapman
we know that she is. This invalidates all of your theories - though

I don't

Post by David Chapman
believe Tsutama is Mesaana simply because as a beautiful woman she

stands

Post by David Chapman
out.

Only reason I am under that assumption is that Alviarin said that the
face was familiar. Also, Mesaana was quite POed that Alviarin had
seen her real face -- understandable, but more understandable if that
might unveil her identity in the WT.

There has been speculation that the Illusion used has been fairly mild
-- adding Agelessness. Precedence is based on Moggy's Illusion being
pretty much her face with careworn touches, etc.

No, it's not stopping Graendal, but she is known for her drama and has
her subjects under heavy Compulsion.

At this point my Mesaana theory is based solely on
process-of-elimination and a few clues. In the Forsaken Garden Hour,
"Halima" is berated for letting Eg escape and it is shown that Mesaana
thinks Eg is a figurehead. That goes well with the "Why aren't you
hysterical?" comment.

One thought I've had is that the blue eyes might have been a red (or
blue) herring -- no one is likely to touch a person's eyes to make
the Illusion go away.

Either way -- the irony is too much for me to discount the idea.
We'll see, as always.

[Aaron]

Post by moriah
Okay, I hope I put enough spaces here...
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Tsutama is described as being "stunningly beautiful", whereas we are
told that Mesaana's "big blue eyes" are her best feature.
However, in my personal opinion there was new evidence to support my
"looney" theory that Silviana is Mesaana -- mainly that Silviana has
"large" eyes.
Silviana has not had any information given on her background at all.
Almost every other sister has been associated with a country, an
accent, or some other kind of background. It's as though she
magically appeared and was given high status. No one has recounted
previous incidents with her except Leane, who says she is "fair" in
this book, but that could be things she picked up while in the Tower
itself.

I'll give you another two reasons. I just noticed two things about
Silviana upon rereading the prologue. 1. Katerine is a bit afraid, or
at least in awe of her, and we know Katerine is BA. I say this because
she sighs noticeably before opening the door to bring Egwene to
Silviana. I don't recall her getting any penance, and being BA, I doubt
she would have, but other than that I'm not sure where to go with this.
Surely she doesn't know it is Mesaana...only Alviarhin probably knows
that.

The other minor reason is her strength in the power. Egwene considers
attacking her shield, but comments that Silviana is "far from weak" (in
the Power). Certainly the number of AS about whom Egwene, being very
strong herself, would say that is few. So, perhaps another piece of
evidence in favor of this theory. Overall, though, I think we have
little to go on. RJ is clearly tired of us guessing his plans ahead of
time, so now gives so few clues that it's pointless to try figuring
*anything* out (like who the BA with Elayne is, which we now know).

-Aaron

[zheemnookin]

When Silviana and Mesaana were first introduced to us, I immediately
thought Silviana should be a prime suspect. Mesaana despises AS, so
beating them wouldn't be such a bad thing; Silviana as disciplinarian
is in a prime position to have anyone in the White Tower spill the
beans on most news; and, of course, Mesaana knows about the private
penances dealt by Silviana.

Still, I don't think Silviana is Mesaana. At all. For two main reasons:

First, when Mesaana is unmasked, Alviarin notes that the woman is
vaguely familiar, and makes a note to herself to be on the lookout of a
woman who looks similar. We know Alviarin has daily penances, so unless
Mesaana-as-Silviana further disguised her Silviana disguise to elude
Alviarian (which is impossible; everyone would notice the difference),
then we should safely rule her out. Second, Silviana-as-Mesaana would
NOT be treating Egwene so loosely. Not only does Silviana seem to
respect Egwene, but she doesn't do what we know FS love to do with
people in power: keep 'em close! Silviana does NOT ask Egwene to stay
in her room and run personal errands; she does NOT question Egwene
about anything that happened in the rebel camp; she does NOT try a
single weave with Egwene (that the readers would notice, like with
Halima). Basically, Mesaana-as-Silviana has far too loose a leash on
Egwene, when it would be extremely easy to have a tighter leash.

My bet's on the friendless, dreamy-eyed/sharp-eyed Brown who helped
depose Siuan.

[Aaron]

Post by zheemnookin
When Silviana and Mesaana were first introduced to us, I immediately
thought Silviana should be a prime suspect. Mesaana despises AS, so
beating them wouldn't be such a bad thing; Silviana as disciplinarian
is in a prime position to have anyone in the White Tower spill the
beans on most news; and, of course, Mesaana knows about the private
penances dealt by Silviana.

Your reasons for Silviana are sound, and are not even all of them, but
your reasons against are not really reasons, IMO.

Post by zheemnookin
First, when Mesaana is unmasked, Alviarin notes that the woman is
vaguely familiar, and makes a note to herself to be on the lookout of a
woman who looks similar. We know Alviarin has daily penances, so unless
Mesaana-as-Silviana further disguised her Silviana disguise to elude
Alviarian (which is impossible; everyone would notice the difference),
then we should safely rule her out.

Thinking on this further, and rereading, I think this isn't a reason at
all why Silviana can't be Mesaana. Look at page 502...Alviarhin is
clearly *terrified* of Silviana as she stands in the hallway. I don't
think a harsh penance is enough to break the composure of the head of
the BA. Sylviana is Mesaana, and Alviarhin knows it. Mesaana is
punishing her even more harshly because Alviarhin saw her face. She's
still giving Alviarhin orders, as well.

Think about it: yes, Mesaana was punished, and yes, she was revealed to
Alviarhin. Still, she is Forsaken. What did you really think Alviarhin
was going to be able to do to her after knowing which AS she was?

Post by zheemnookin
Second, Silviana-as-Mesaana would
NOT be treating Egwene so loosely. Not only does Silviana seem to
respect Egwene, but she doesn't do what we know FS love to do with
people in power: keep 'em close! Silviana does NOT ask Egwene to stay
in her room and run personal errands; she does NOT question Egwene
about anything that happened in the rebel camp; she does NOT try a
single weave with Egwene (that the readers would notice, like with
Halima). Basically, Mesaana-as-Silviana has far too loose a leash on
Egwene, when it would be extremely easy to have a tighter leash.

Egwene is furthering the chaos and rifts in the White Tower. She may
make it come apart completely, allowing the BA to take over. I think
Silviana's behavior is right in-line with encouraging this.

Post by zheemnookin
My bet's on the friendless, dreamy-eyed/sharp-eyed Brown who helped
depose Siuan.

In fairness, this is not a bad guess. Nor is the AS who was tapping her
chin, though I think that is a Taimandred-level red herring. RJ still
hasn't gained subtlety, IMHO.

-Aaron

[moriah]

When Silviana and Mesaana were first introduced to us, I immediately
thought Silviana should be a prime suspect. Mesaana despises AS, so
beating them wouldn't be such a bad thing; Silviana as disciplinarian
is in a prime position to have anyone in the White Tower spill the
beans on most news; and, of course, Mesaana knows about the private

Post by zheemnookin
penances dealt by Silviana.

More to the point, at least to me, a POV with Mesaana indicated that
she could hand out physical discipline but she did not let herself
enjoy it (ie Semihrage).

MoN has to be able to hand it out per the rules, but Silviana hasn't
seemed to particularly enjoy it. Alviarin is certainly not handling
her physical discomfort as well as the Aiel -- but it's been pretty
well demonstrated that Alvi is a fairly weak woman. I also doubt
she's getting Healing. It could also be that "Silviana" is allowing
her anger at Alvi get the better of her.

Post by zheemnookin
First, when Mesaana is unmasked, Alviarin notes that the woman is
vaguely familiar, and makes a note to herself to be on the lookout

of a

Post by zheemnookin
woman who looks similar. We know Alviarin has daily penances, so

unless

Post by zheemnookin
Mesaana-as-Silviana further disguised her Silviana disguise to

elude

Post by zheemnookin
Alviarian (which is impossible; everyone would notice the

difference),

Post by zheemnookin
then we should safely rule her out.

I don't know... Ny may have seen Moggy's true face during her battle,
then was fooled by "Marigan" when she saw her every day... I don't
know if Mog would have been altering her physical appearance in The
Unseen World tho. Eg noted later that "Marigan" was a fairly light
application of Illusion. Adding Agelesness might end up being a more
disguising Illusion given that sisters did not recognize Leane, but
stilling causes more effects than simply removing Agelesness.

Post by zheemnookin
Second, Silviana-as-Mesaana would NOT be treating Egwene so loosely.

Not only does Silviana seem to respect Egwene, but she doesn't do what
we know FS love to do with people in power: keep 'em close! Silviana
does NOT ask Egwene to stay in her room and run personal errands; she
does NOT question Egwene about anything that happened in the rebel
camp; she does NOT try a single weave with Egwene (that the readers
would notice, like with Halima). Basically, Mesaana-as-Silviana has
far too loose a leash on Egwene, when it would be extremely easy to
have a tighter leash.

If "Silviana" already knows the information Halima gathered, there's
no reason to question her about the rebel camp. Halima could weave
where Eg couldn't tell because "her" weavings were of saidin. Some
might say that Mesaana has demonstrated a dislike of needless use of
the Power (domino tower thing). And, of course, some might say that
seven or eight spankings a day is pretty close.

But I do agree that her behavior with Eg is interesting and is part of
the reason I am not completely certain on this theory. During POV
with Halima and Mesaana, Mesaana indicates that she underestimates
Eg. Perhaps "Silviana"'s looseness of control is indicative of
this.

I did have a few other thoughts. Silviana is a bit more concerned
with Egwene's Dream regarding the Seanchan than the others -- perhaps
this is because she's smarter, or perhaps it's because she already
knows Eg is a Dreamer. This was before this information was
disemminated to Elaida by a trusted source.

Post by zheemnookin
My bet's on the friendless, dreamy-eyed/sharp-eyed Brown who helped

depose Siuan.

My only argument with this idea is that Silviana has been brought more
into the story whereas Danelle has practically disappeared.

Again, my reasoning for this theory is mainly process of elimination.
Silviana has absolutely no backstory. POV with Tarna has in my
opinion eliminated her as a serious contender. Tsutama is certainly
an interesting candidate, but has a backstory and was fairly well
known due to the "vileness".

I'm having to make myself discount the irony in the statement
regarding Alviarin accepting Silviana's penances as from Mesaana --
too akin to the "Death took him" Asmodean theory. But it still
sticks with me.