Discussion:
Sammael speculation [KoD spoilers]
(too old to reply)
David Wachsmuth
2005-10-16 20:02:26 UTC
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This has been addressed briefly in one of the 'Update to the FAQ'
threads, but I thought it would be helpful to treat it at greater
length: who do we think is impersonating Sammael, and is this person
the same as Slayer's mysterious employer?

In [KoD: 3, At the Gardens, 146-147], Moridin thinks Sammael has
resufaced or that someone is impersonating him. We know Sammael can't
have survived his fight with Rand in aCoS, since RJ has confirmed him
dead. So we have two possibilities. 1) Sammael has been resurrected. 2)
Someone is impersonating him.

As for the first possibility, we've seen three cases of straightforward
resurrection (the 'Gars and Moridin) and one maybe
not-so-straightforward case (Cyndane). According to the
Encylopaedia-WOT timeline, Aginor and Balthamel died in mid-summer 998
and were next seen in early fall 999. Ishamael died in late spring 999
and was next seen in mid-winter 1000. Lanfear entered the Eel'finn's
land in early fall 999 and was next seen in late winter 1000. So in all
cases there's been a little more than one year between the death and
resurfacing of Forsaken. Now it's possible that Isamael and Lanfear
were hanging around off camera for a while before making appearances,
but we see the 'Gars right after their rebirth, so we can be fairly
confident that there is some minimum time that needs to elapse before
the DO can bring back his minions.

But it's only been a few months between the end of aCoS and the
Forsaken meeting in KoD, so there's no way Sammael could have come back
in time. Also, it's possible this mystery Forsaken was first seen in WH
(see below), making it even less likely to be Sammael.

So we're left with the second possibility: someone has been
impersonating Sammael. Our only real suspects are the Forsaken and
Taim. No one else could be a powerful and well-connected enough DF
channeler. In fact, even Taim is doubtful, since Moridin says [KoD 147]
Myrddraal obeyed this person, meaning it had to have been a Forsaken.

Have we seen this mysterious Forsaken before? It's definitely possible
that he/she is Slayer's anonymous employer [WH: 22, Out of Thin Air,
448-449], although she/he doesn't use the same disguise. The two
incidents have the same objective: kill Rand clandestinely, and the
same motives for anonymity (not wanting Moridin or other Forsaken to
find out who's ordering unauthorized attacks on Rand). If the two bad
guys are the same, the FAQ (1.4.04) gives us a shortlist of candidates
(Moridin, Osan'gar, Aran'gar, Demandred, and Taim - assuming Slayer is
right and the employer is a man), and we can now narrow this down even
more.

First, we can scratch Osan'gar off this list. In addition to the good
arguments in the FAQ as to why he isn't Slayer's employer, he is dead
long before those Myrddraal and Trollocs were sent after Rand. Second,
we can scratch Aran'gar, since we have her PoV in KoD speculating about
who it could have been. Third, we can say it's very unlikely that
Moridin's the culprit, since he raised this issue with the other
Forsaken. Maybe this is some kind of elaborate ruse on his part, but
that seems needlessly convoluted even for the FS.

It looks like we're left with only Demandred or Taim. The FAQ points
out that either could have known Rand's location (Far Madding) in WH.
Presumably either could have known where Rand was in Tear to send the
Trollocs, through eyes-and-ears etc.

We don't get any new dirt on Demandred, but we do on Taim. The last bit
of the epilogue definitely suggests that Taim is a first-class DF. He
probably got the 'lord of chaos' line from one of the Forsaken and not
the DO himself, and the red and black colours suggest he may actually
be working for Moridin directly. This all makes it possible that he was
the one to order the WH hit on Rand, but there are big problems with
him having ordered the Trollocs in KoD.

First, Moridin says that "Sammael, or someone disguised like him"
ordered the hit, which means this person knows what Sammael looked
like. Second, the person had to have the 'Chosen' mark in order for
Myrddraal to have obeyed. It's conceivable that Taim has secretly been
promoted to Forsaken by the DO, but I don't think he could possibly
know what Sammael looks like.

Ergo, if the two mysterious bad guys are the same, they must be
Demandred. If they're not, we still have the female Forsaken (Graendal,
Semirhage, Mesaana, Moghedien, and Cyndane) to consider for the Tear
attack. But we really have to dismiss Moghedien and Cyndane because of
the mindtraps - they wouldn't dare go against Moridin's back like this
- and Semirhage because she was busy cooking up her own plan for
capturing Rand. Mesaana also seems HIGHLY doubtful, since she was just
reined in by Shaidar Haran, and she's got her own fish to fry in any
case. Graendal has a small pro and a small con: she's a woman, so
impersonating Sammael would be a little bizarre, but she knows him very
well and was working with him quite intimately until he was offed.
There really isn't enough evidence to confirm or deny her.

So we have two lists of two suspects: for the WH attack, either
Demandred or Taim; for the Tear attack, either Demandred of Graendal.
Since Demandred is the only name on both lists, and since he would no
doubt love to see Rand dead (orders from Moridin be damned!), he gets
my vote.

One last interesting tidbit: in the Ansaline Gardens, Aran'gar is
musing about who could be impersonating Aran'gar, and thinks "She would
like very much to know who had begun playing her own game" [Kod: 3, At
the Gardens, 147]. This means she's been imitating Forsaken, but whom?
And why?

-DW
David Chapman
2005-10-16 20:11:51 UTC
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Post by David Wachsmuth
we've seen three cases of straightforward
resurrection (the 'Gars and Moridin) and one maybe
not-so-straightforward case (Cyndane). According to the
Encylopaedia-WOT timeline, Aginor and Balthamel died in mid-summer 998
and were next seen in early fall 999. Ishamael died in late spring 999
and was next seen in mid-winter 1000. Lanfear entered the Eel'finn's
land in early fall 999 and was next seen in late winter 1000. So in all
cases there's been a little more than one year between the death and
resurfacing of Forsaken.
The implied reason for this is the difficulty of finding bodies with a
sufficiently great capacity to channel.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Minyon
2005-10-18 18:17:21 UTC
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Post by David Chapman
Post by David Wachsmuth
we've seen three cases of straightforward
resurrection (the 'Gars and Moridin) and one maybe
not-so-straightforward case (Cyndane). According to the
Encylopaedia-WOT timeline, Aginor and Balthamel died in mid-summer 998
and were next seen in early fall 999. Ishamael died in late spring 999
and was next seen in mid-winter 1000. Lanfear entered the Eel'finn's
land in early fall 999 and was next seen in late winter 1000. So in all
cases there's been a little more than one year between the death and
resurfacing of Forsaken.
The implied reason for this is the difficulty of finding bodies with a
sufficiently great capacity to channel.
Suitable bodies with channeling capacity? Doesn't the existance of
Belthamel/Aran'gar and the fact that he/she still channels Saidin suggest
that channeling ability is an aspect of the soul in question, not the body?
The one case of healing stilling that we have seen suggests that there is
some sort of physical component, however, the use of spirit in the weave
leads us in the opposite direction... perhaps relinking the soul's ability
to a physical channel or some such. In any case, I would think a body that
could channel at all would be sufficient, and those aren't nearly as rare as
all that. Definitely not rare enough that it would take a year or more to
find one.

IMO the time lapse is not indicative of necessity, but rather a choice on
the DO's part. The 'Gars were brought back for specific missions, Aran'gar
to keep an eye on Egwene, and Osan'gar to keep an eye on, and eventually try
to kill Rand. Moridin was brought back to bring the other Forsaken to heel,
quite possibly as part of the DO's grand design. So, basically, I think the
timing thing as an argument for or against Sammael's return is a moot point.
David Chapman
2005-10-18 23:17:39 UTC
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Post by Minyon
Post by David Chapman
Post by David Wachsmuth
we've seen three cases of straightforward
resurrection (the 'Gars and Moridin) and one maybe
not-so-straightforward case (Cyndane). According to the
Encylopaedia-WOT timeline, Aginor and Balthamel died in mid-summer 998
and were next seen in early fall 999. Ishamael died in late spring 999
and was next seen in mid-winter 1000. Lanfear entered the Eel'finn's
land in early fall 999 and was next seen in late winter 1000. So in all
cases there's been a little more than one year between the death and
resurfacing of Forsaken.
The implied reason for this is the difficulty of finding bodies with a
sufficiently great capacity to channel.
Suitable bodies with channeling capacity? Doesn't the existance of
Belthamel/Aran'gar and the fact that he/she still channels Saidin suggest
that channeling ability is an aspect of the soul in question, not the body?
Not necessarily. We have confirmation from RJ that there is both a
spiritual and genetic component to channelling ability. On that basis,
Aran'gar still channelling saidin despite being in a female body suggests
that genetics determines if you can channel, but the soul determines which
half of the Power you can access. Cyndane's being weaker after recycling
suggests that the degree to which you can channel is part of the genetic
factor.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Tim Bruening
2005-12-01 05:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by David Wachsmuth
we've seen three cases of straightforward
resurrection (the 'Gars and Moridin) and one maybe
not-so-straightforward case (Cyndane). According to the
Encylopaedia-WOT timeline, Aginor and Balthamel died in mid-summer 998
and were next seen in early fall 999. Ishamael died in late spring 999
and was next seen in mid-winter 1000. Lanfear entered the Eel'finn's
land in early fall 999 and was next seen in late winter 1000. So in all
cases there's been a little more than one year between the death and
resurfacing of Forsaken.
The implied reason for this is the difficulty of finding bodies with a
sufficiently great capacity to channel.
Thanks to the efforts of the Black Tower and of the rebel AS, the DO should
have an easier time finding bodies which can channel strongly.
loial
2005-10-17 02:17:50 UTC
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Post by David Wachsmuth
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<snippety snip>
Post by David Wachsmuth
First, Moridin says that "Sammael, or someone disguised like him"
ordered the hit, which means this person knows what Sammael looked
like. Second, the person had to have the 'Chosen' mark in order for
Myrddraal to have obeyed. It's conceivable that Taim has secretly been
promoted to Forsaken by the DO, but I don't think he could possibly
know what Sammael looks like.
Seems to be some good reasoning, overall. I was wondering if someone
would mention the Chosen mark. You're the first person I recall seeing
to remember that requirement.
Tim Bruening
2005-12-01 05:32:08 UTC
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Post by loial
Post by David Wachsmuth
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<snippety snip>
Post by David Wachsmuth
First, Moridin says that "Sammael, or someone disguised like him"
ordered the hit, which means this person knows what Sammael looked
like. Second, the person had to have the 'Chosen' mark in order for
Myrddraal to have obeyed. It's conceivable that Taim has secretly been
promoted to Forsaken by the DO, but I don't think he could possibly
know what Sammael looks like.
Seems to be some good reasoning, overall. I was wondering if someone
would mention the Chosen mark. You're the first person I recall seeing
to remember that requirement.
Fain doesn't need a Chosen mark to make Fades obey him!
Sydo Zandstra
2005-12-04 14:42:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by loial
<snippety snip>
Post by David Wachsmuth
First, Moridin says that "Sammael, or someone disguised like him"
ordered the hit, which means this person knows what Sammael looked
like. Second, the person had to have the 'Chosen' mark in order for
Myrddraal to have obeyed. It's conceivable that Taim has secretly been
promoted to Forsaken by the DO, but I don't think he could possibly
know what Sammael looks like.
Seems to be some good reasoning, overall. I was wondering if someone
would mention the Chosen mark. You're the first person I recall seeing
to remember that requirement.
Fain doesn't need a Chosen mark to make Fades obey him!
Fain doesn't work for the DO, and even Myrddraal were afraid to enter Shadar
Logoth.

Speaking of the Chosen mark, has Alviarin been promoted to Chosen? The parts
where she kept touching her forehead seem to implicate so...
--
Sydo Zandstra
Tim Bruening
2010-03-20 04:29:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sydo Zandstra
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by loial
<snippety snip>
Post by David Wachsmuth
First, Moridin says that "Sammael, or someone disguised like him"
ordered the hit, which means this person knows what Sammael looked
like. Second, the person had to have the 'Chosen' mark in order for
Myrddraal to have obeyed. It's conceivable that Taim has secretly been
promoted to Forsaken by the DO, but I don't think he could possibly
know what Sammael looks like.
Seems to be some good reasoning, overall. I was wondering if someone
would mention the Chosen mark. You're the first person I recall seeing
to remember that requirement.
Fain doesn't need a Chosen mark to make Fades obey him!
Fain doesn't work for the DO, and even Myrddraal were afraid to enter Shadar
Logoth.
Speaking of the Chosen mark, has Alviarin been promoted to Chosen? The parts
where she kept touching her forehead seem to implicate so...
It has occured to me that the Great Lord of the Dark should promote channeling
Darkfriends to the rank of "Chosen".
loial
2005-10-17 02:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wachsmuth
First, Moridin says that "Sammael, or someone disguised like him"
ordered the hit, which means this person knows what Sammael looked
like. Second, the person had to have the 'Chosen' mark in order for
Myrddraal to have obeyed. It's conceivable that Taim has secretly been
promoted to Forsaken by the DO, but I don't think he could possibly
know what Sammael looks like.
Speaking of this, who thinks Taim has actually been promoted? I would
vote yes, though we may never know.
Rajiv Mote
2005-10-17 16:21:30 UTC
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Post by David Wachsmuth
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<SNIP>
Post by David Wachsmuth
In [KoD: 3, At the Gardens, 146-147], Moridin thinks Sammael has
resufaced or that someone is impersonating him. We know Sammael can't
have survived his fight with Rand in aCoS, since RJ has confirmed him
dead. So we have two possibilities. 1) Sammael has been resurrected. 2)
Someone is impersonating him.
The third possibility is that Moridin is completely wrong, and Sammael
remains dead. The only reason he gives for suspecting Sammael is back
is the Trolloc troop movement, and Moridin believes he has all the
gathered Forsaken under his thumb. But we know that Demandred is
plotting Moridin's death "sometime soon" and none of them are free of
ambition.
Post by David Wachsmuth
But it's only been a few months between the end of aCoS and the
Forsaken meeting in KoD, so there's no way Sammael could have come back
in time. Also, it's possible this mystery Forsaken was first seen in WH
(see below), making it even less likely to be Sammael.
I don't think the time is in any way conclusive, since the lag just
seems to be a matter of "finding suitable bodies" for the
transmigration.

The fact that there were eleven seats at the gathering (one for each
Forsaken not balefired) indicates that any and all -- including
Asmodean, Osan'gar and Sammael -- could be back. The fact that
Graendal was the one to create the room makes things very suspicious
indeed.
Post by David Wachsmuth
So we're left with the second possibility: someone has been
impersonating Sammael.
I think we should rephrase this as "someone not under Moridin's thumb
has been ordering Trolloc deployment."
Post by David Wachsmuth
Have we seen this mysterious Forsaken before? It's definitely possible
that he/she is Slayer's anonymous employer [WH: 22, Out of Thin Air,
448-449], although she/he doesn't use the same disguise. The two
incidents have the same objective: kill Rand clandestinely, and the
same motives for anonymity (not wanting Moridin or other Forsaken to
find out who's ordering unauthorized attacks on Rand). If the two bad
guys are the same, the FAQ (1.4.04) gives us a shortlist of candidates
(Moridin, Osan'gar, Aran'gar, Demandred, and Taim - assuming Slayer is
right and the employer is a man), and we can now narrow this down even
more.
We don't get any new dirt on Demandred, but we do on Taim. The last bit
of the epilogue definitely suggests that Taim is a first-class DF. He
probably got the 'lord of chaos' line from one of the Forsaken and not
the DO himself, and the red and black colours suggest he may actually
be working for Moridin directly. This all makes it possible that he was
the one to order the WH hit on Rand, but there are big problems with
him having ordered the Trollocs in KoD.
I like the notion that Taim has been promoted to Chosen (if Shaidar
Haran is handing out Dark Marks, why not to Taim?). But so far as
we've seen, the red-and-black motif is Moridin's livery -- it means
you're his creature. I think the scene in Winter's Heart, with the
repeated orders to the Darkfriend Asha'man, were meant to convey the
changes in leadership. If I'm remembering the proper order, the first
command came from Taim, who was snapped up by Demandred who then
started given orders directly. And then Moridin reined in Demandred
and took over.
Post by David Wachsmuth
First, Moridin says that "Sammael, or someone disguised like him"
ordered the hit, which means this person knows what Sammael looked
like. Second, the person had to have the 'Chosen' mark in order for
Myrddraal to have obeyed. It's conceivable that Taim has secretly been
promoted to Forsaken by the DO, but I don't think he could possibly
know what Sammael looks like.
It would fit what I've seen of RJ's sense of humor to have Taim killed
and used as a host body for Sammael's transmigration. Then RJ could
say, "see? Taim isn't Demandred -- Taim is Sammael!" But, of course,
if Taimmael is in Moridin's livery, then Moridin should not need to
question Sammael's resurrection.
Post by David Wachsmuth
But we really have to dismiss Moghedien and Cyndane because of
the mindtraps - they wouldn't dare go against Moridin's back like this
When Moghedien witnessed the Cleansing, she thought that if she
survived, she may never feel fear again. She may have grown a
backbone, and she's good at striking from the shadows. Galina
maintained hope for a very long time, even in Therava's clutches.
Moghedien may be looking for a method of escape.

And I just can't see Lanfear truly broken.
Post by David Wachsmuth
Graendal has a small pro and a small con: she's a woman, so
impersonating Sammael would be a little bizarre, but she knows him very
well and was working with him quite intimately until he was offed.
There really isn't enough evidence to confirm or deny her.
Was it ever said that this rogue Forsaken was impersonating Sammael in
appearance? Unless the Myrddraal told Moridin, it seems that "Sammael"
is just conjecture on Moridin's part. I'll have to re-read the
chapter, but on my first reading, my impression was that this is the
least confident behavior we've seen in Moridin. I wonder why. Maybe
he's shaken by Rand's face in his head, every time he seizes the True
Power. (Did anybody else think Rand should have had a lightning-shaped
scar on his forehead after reading about his link with Moridin?)

-- Rajiv
Robert Mee
2005-10-17 20:14:25 UTC
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Post by Rajiv Mote
Post by David Wachsmuth
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<SNIP>
The fact that there were eleven seats at the gathering (one for each
Forsaken not balefired) indicates that any and all -- including
Asmodean, Osan'gar and Sammael -- could be back. The fact that
Graendal was the one to create the room makes things very suspicious
indeed.
[SNIP}
Post by Rajiv Mote
-- Rajiv
But Osan'Gar WAS Balefired. In fact, the BF that Elza used was so
powerful, it destroyed the top 50 meters of a hilltop. Sliced it clean
off. At least, that's how I read the ending of the Shadar Logoth battle.

Rob
Rajiv Mote
2005-10-17 20:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Mee
But Osan'Gar WAS Balefired. In fact, the BF that Elza used was so
powerful, it destroyed the top 50 meters of a hilltop. Sliced it clean
off. At least, that's how I read the ending of the Shadar Logoth battle.
Osan'gar was preparing Balefire to erase Rand. But Elza just used
saidin, which seemed suited for destruction, to fireball the hilltop
and kill Osan'gar. There's no indication that Elza even knows the
weave for Balefire.
Robert Mee
2005-10-18 06:26:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rajiv Mote
Post by Robert Mee
But Osan'Gar WAS Balefired. In fact, the BF that Elza used was so
powerful, it destroyed the top 50 meters of a hilltop. Sliced it clean
off. At least, that's how I read the ending of the Shadar Logoth battle.
Osan'gar was preparing Balefire to erase Rand. But Elza just used
saidin, which seemed suited for destruction, to fireball the hilltop
and kill Osan'gar. There's no indication that Elza even knows the
weave for Balefire.
Then I appreciate your correction. It seems I misremembered the
relevent section... and quite possibly misread it.
Mitchell Swan
2005-10-18 17:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Mee
Post by Rajiv Mote
Post by Robert Mee
But Osan'Gar WAS Balefired. In fact, the BF that Elza used was so
powerful, it destroyed the top 50 meters of a hilltop. Sliced it clean
off. At least, that's how I read the ending of the Shadar Logoth battle.
Osan'gar was preparing Balefire to erase Rand. But Elza just used
saidin, which seemed suited for destruction, to fireball the hilltop
and kill Osan'gar. There's no indication that Elza even knows the
weave for Balefire.
Then I appreciate your correction. It seems I misremembered the
relevent section... and quite possibly misread it.
COT, Chapter 35, "With the Choden Kal"

Now it was clear to her, as clear as \saidar\ made the face of the man
trying to hide on that hill while peeking around a tree trunk. Today,
she had been forced to fight the Chosen. Surely the Great Lord would
understand if she had actually killed any of them, but Corlan Dashiva
was only one of those Asha'man. Dashiva raised his hand toward the
hill where she stood, and she drew as hard as she could on \Callandor\
in Jahar's hands. \Saidin\ seemed well suited to destruction, to her.
A huge ball of coruscating fire surrounded the other hilltop, red and
gold and blue. When it was gone, that other hill ended in a smooth
surface fifty feet lower than the old crest.
--
Mitch
"While I am new to these things, I cannot help wondering whether it
might be disrespectful to vault over an altar that way."
Mitchell Swan
2005-10-18 17:16:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mitchell Swan
COT, Chapter 35, "With the Choden Kal"
Whoops, obviously, that's supposed to be Winter's Heart.
--
Mitch
"While I am new to these things, I cannot help wondering whether it
might be disrespectful to vault over an altar that way."
Christer Jacobsson
2005-11-14 05:30:29 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:15:12 UTC, Mitchell Swan
Post by Mitchell Swan
Post by Robert Mee
Post by Rajiv Mote
Post by Robert Mee
But Osan'Gar WAS Balefired. In fact, the BF that Elza used was so
powerful, it destroyed the top 50 meters of a hilltop. Sliced it clean
off. At least, that's how I read the ending of the Shadar Logoth battle.
Osan'gar was preparing Balefire to erase Rand. But Elza just used
saidin, which seemed suited for destruction, to fireball the hilltop
and kill Osan'gar. There's no indication that Elza even knows the
weave for Balefire.
Then I appreciate your correction. It seems I misremembered the
relevent section... and quite possibly misread it.
COT, Chapter 35, "With the Choden Kal"
Now it was clear to her, as clear as \saidar\ made the face of the man
trying to hide on that hill while peeking around a tree trunk. Today,
she had been forced to fight the Chosen. Surely the Great Lord would
understand if she had actually killed any of them, but Corlan Dashiva
was only one of those Asha'man. Dashiva raised his hand toward the
hill where she stood, and she drew as hard as she could on \Callandor\
in Jahar's hands. \Saidin\ seemed well suited to destruction, to her.
A huge ball of coruscating fire surrounded the other hilltop, red and
gold and blue. When it was gone, that other hill ended in a smooth
surface fifty feet lower than the old crest.
Hell, Elza plus Jahar plus Callandor is a nifty Disinto unit, aren't
they? Taking away 50ft (15m) is no mean feat, it being on par with
the robot AL-76 and his homebrew Disinto in Asimov's short story Robot
AL-76 Goes Astray. AL-76's Disinto was powered by a ordinary dry
cell :-)


--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 9th Anniversary & 25th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se
Chunkawakan
Petter Strandmark
2005-10-17 21:49:07 UTC
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Post by David Wachsmuth
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who do we think is impersonating Sammael, and is this person
the same as Slayer's mysterious employer?
Fain has been known to make Myrdraal obey, and he has lots of
mysterious/unknown abilities, like the illusions created in Far
Madding. He wants Rand dead above anything else, too.

Most likely it's Demandred, though.
--
Petter
Velk
2005-10-18 11:28:57 UTC
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Post by Petter Strandmark
Post by David Wachsmuth
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who do we think is impersonating Sammael, and is this person
the same as Slayer's mysterious employer?
Fain has been known to make Myrdraal obey, and he has lots of
mysterious/unknown abilities, like the illusions created in Far
Madding. He wants Rand dead above anything else, too.
Most likely it's Demandred, though.
What if it is Sammael, or his body at least ?

There's at least two other people who got regurgitated by Mashadar and
then showed up later as pawns of eeeevil (Fain and Mordred).
zuul
2005-10-17 23:31:14 UTC
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Post by David Wachsmuth
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This has been addressed briefly in one of the 'Update to the FAQ'
threads, but I thought it would be helpful to treat it at greater
length: who do we think is impersonating Sammael, and is this person
the same as Slayer's mysterious employer?
In [KoD: 3, At the Gardens, 146-147], Moridin thinks Sammael has
resufaced or that someone is impersonating him. We know Sammael can't
have survived his fight with Rand in aCoS, since RJ has confirmed him
dead. So we have two possibilities. 1) Sammael has been resurrected. 2)
Someone is impersonating him.
I don't remember one way or the other but, are we sure Asmodean(SP?) is
really gone?
namo
2005-10-18 01:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by zuul
I don't remember one way or the other but, are we sure Asmodean(SP?) is
really gone?
The DO says that Asmo is dead and that "those who betray [the DO] will die
the final death" (or something like that). Maybe he can still change his
mind ?
c***@gmail.com
2005-10-18 13:47:48 UTC
Permalink
RJ said Asmo is dead dead and dead, he said he ain't coming back both
because of where he died, and how he died.

I think it's Demandred or Fain, although I doubt Fain could really
control 100,000 trollocs from all the different clans.
Tim Bruening
2005-12-01 05:29:52 UTC
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Post by David Wachsmuth
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This has been addressed briefly in one of the 'Update to the FAQ'
threads, but I thought it would be helpful to treat it at greater
length: who do we think is impersonating Sammael, and is this person
the same as Slayer's mysterious employer?
In [KoD: 3, At the Gardens, 146-147], Moridin thinks Sammael has
resufaced or that someone is impersonating him. We know Sammael can't
have survived his fight with Rand in aCoS, since RJ has confirmed him
dead. So we have two possibilities. 1) Sammael has been resurrected. 2)
Someone is impersonating him.
As for the first possibility, we've seen three cases of straightforward
resurrection (the 'Gars and Moridin) and one maybe
not-so-straightforward case (Cyndane). According to the
Encylopaedia-WOT timeline, Aginor and Balthamel died in mid-summer 998
and were next seen in early fall 999.
I thought that Aginor and Balthanmel had died in the early spring of 998.
(In the Eye of the World, the winter had been long and cold, and had not
yet departed, even though it should have been spring).
Tim Bruening
2005-12-01 05:29:54 UTC
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Post by David Wachsmuth
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This has been addressed briefly in one of the 'Update to the FAQ'
threads, but I thought it would be helpful to treat it at greater
length: who do we think is impersonating Sammael, and is this person
the same as Slayer's mysterious employer?
In [KoD: 3, At the Gardens, 146-147], Moridin thinks Sammael has
resufaced or that someone is impersonating him. We know Sammael can't
have survived his fight with Rand in aCoS, since RJ has confirmed him
dead. So we have two possibilities. 1) Sammael has been resurrected. 2)
Someone is impersonating him.
As for the first possibility, we've seen three cases of straightforward
resurrection (the 'Gars and Moridin) and one maybe
not-so-straightforward case (Cyndane). According to the
Encylopaedia-WOT timeline, Aginor and Balthamel died in mid-summer 998
and were next seen in early fall 999. Ishamael died in late spring 999
and was next seen in mid-winter 1000. Lanfear entered the Eel'finn's
land in early fall 999 and was next seen in late winter 1000. So in all
cases there's been a little more than one year between the death and
resurfacing of Forsaken. Now it's possible that Isamael and Lanfear
were hanging around off camera for a while before making appearances,
but we see the 'Gars right after their rebirth, so we can be fairly
confident that there is some minimum time that needs to elapse before
the DO can bring back his minions.
But it's only been a few months between the end of aCoS and the
Forsaken meeting in KoD, so there's no way Sammael could have come back
in time. Also, it's possible this mystery Forsaken was first seen in WH
(see below), making it even less likely to be Sammael.
So we're left with the second possibility: someone has been
impersonating Sammael. Our only real suspects are the Forsaken and
Taim. No one else could be a powerful and well-connected enough DF
channeler. In fact, even Taim is doubtful, since Moridin says [KoD 147]
Myrddraal obeyed this person, meaning it had to have been a Forsaken.
Have we seen this mysterious Forsaken before? It's definitely possible
that he/she is Slayer's anonymous employer [WH: 22, Out of Thin Air,
448-449], although she/he doesn't use the same disguise. The two
incidents have the same objective: kill Rand clandestinely, and the
same motives for anonymity (not wanting Moridin or other Forsaken to
find out who's ordering unauthorized attacks on Rand). If the two bad
guys are the same, the FAQ (1.4.04) gives us a shortlist of candidates
(Moridin, Osan'gar, Aran'gar, Demandred, and Taim - assuming Slayer is
right and the employer is a man), and we can now narrow this down even
more.
First, we can scratch Osan'gar off this list. In addition to the good
arguments in the FAQ as to why he isn't Slayer's employer, he is dead
long before those Myrddraal and Trollocs were sent after Rand. Second,
we can scratch Aran'gar, since we have her PoV in KoD speculating about
who it could have been. Third, we can say it's very unlikely that
Moridin's the culprit, since he raised this issue with the other
Forsaken. Maybe this is some kind of elaborate ruse on his part, but
that seems needlessly convoluted even for the FS.
It looks like we're left with only Demandred or Taim. The FAQ points
out that either could have known Rand's location (Far Madding) in WH.
Presumably either could have known where Rand was in Tear to send the
Trollocs, through eyes-and-ears etc.
We don't get any new dirt on Demandred, but we do on Taim. The last bit
of the epilogue definitely suggests that Taim is a first-class DF. He
probably got the 'lord of chaos' line from one of the Forsaken and not
the DO himself, and the red and black colours suggest he may actually
be working for Moridin directly. This all makes it possible that he was
the one to order the WH hit on Rand, but there are big problems with
him having ordered the Trollocs in KoD.
First, Moridin says that "Sammael, or someone disguised like him"
ordered the hit, which means this person knows what Sammael looked
like. Second, the person had to have the 'Chosen' mark in order for
Myrddraal to have obeyed. It's conceivable that Taim has secretly been
promoted to Forsaken by the DO, but I don't think he could possibly
know what Sammael looks like.
Ergo, if the two mysterious bad guys are the same, they must be
Demandred. If they're not, we still have the female Forsaken (Graendal,
Semirhage, Mesaana, Moghedien, and Cyndane) to consider for the Tear
attack. But we really have to dismiss Moghedien and Cyndane because of
the mindtraps - they wouldn't dare go against Moridin's back like this
- and Semirhage because she was busy cooking up her own plan for
capturing Rand. Mesaana also seems HIGHLY doubtful, since she was just
reined in by Shaidar Haran, and she's got her own fish to fry in any
case. Graendal has a small pro and a small con: she's a woman, so
impersonating Sammael would be a little bizarre, but she knows him very
well and was working with him quite intimately until he was offed.
There really isn't enough evidence to confirm or deny her.
So we have two lists of two suspects: for the WH attack, either
Demandred or Taim; for the Tear attack, either Demandred of Graendal.
Since Demandred is the only name on both lists, and since he would no
doubt love to see Rand dead (orders from Moridin be damned!), he gets
my vote.
One last interesting tidbit: in the Ansaline Gardens, Aran'gar is
musing about who could be impersonating Aran'gar, and thinks "She would
like very much to know who had begun playing her own game" [Kod: 3, At
the Gardens, 147]. This means she's been imitating Forsaken, but whom?
And why?
I bet that it will turn out that the person who impersonated Sammael to
order the hit on Rand is the same person who killed Asmodean long ago!

Will we see the DO seeking help from Rand to find the rogue Forsaken?

Had Padan Fain ever seen Sammael?
e
2006-01-05 01:30:13 UTC
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This has been addressed briefly in one of the 'Update to
the FAQ' threads, but I thought it would be helpful to
treat it at greater length: who do we think is
impersonating Sammael, and is this person the same as
Slayer's mysterious employer?
In [KoD: 3, At the Gardens, 146-147], Moridin thinks
Sammael has resufaced or that someone is impersonating him.
We know Sammael can't have survived his fight with Rand in
aCoS, since RJ has confirmed him dead. So we have two
possibilities. 1) Sammael has been resurrected. 2) Someone
is impersonating him.
<snip>
Post by David Wachsmuth
So we're left with the second possibility: someone has been
impersonating Sammael. Our only real suspects are the
Forsaken and Taim. No one else could be a powerful and
well-connected enough DF channeler. In fact, even Taim is
doubtful, since Moridin says [KoD 147] Myrddraal obeyed
this person, meaning it had to have been a Forsaken.
People in this thread have suggested the possibility of Fain
to add to this list. But what about a further possibility,
Shaidar Haran? I don't know how he would work in the timeline,
or what sense he would make, but seems he should be on the
list.

Ken Walden
Tim Bruening
2010-03-29 06:41:10 UTC
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This has been addressed briefly in one of the 'Update to the FAQ'
threads, but I thought it would be helpful to treat it at greater
length: who do we think is impersonating Sammael, and is this person
the same as Slayer's mysterious employer?
In [KoD: 3, At the Gardens, 146-147], Moridin thinks Sammael has
resufaced or that someone is impersonating him. We know Sammael can't
have survived his fight with Rand in aCoS, since RJ has confirmed him
dead. So we have two possibilities. 1) Sammael has been resurrected. 2)
Someone is impersonating him.
As for the first possibility, we've seen three cases of straightforward
resurrection (the 'Gars and Moridin) and one maybe
not-so-straightforward case (Cyndane). According to the
Encylopaedia-WOT timeline, Aginor and Balthamel died in mid-summer 998
and were next seen in early fall 999.
I thought that Aginor and Balthamel had died in the spring of 998, at the
end of The Eye Of The World.

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