Eye of the World - Why?

[[e-mail]]

An old question, but I think I noticed something new in a reread of
TEOTW (in preparation for reading Knife of Dreams).

Older threads on this abound... for example:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_thread/thread/2222f3c1d5f7b834/358249e71ff075a5?q=eye+of+the+world\&rnum=1#358249e71ff075a5

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_thread/thread/87c243f42813d052/fc078b7a5db4d864?q=eye+of+the+world\&rnum=5#fc078b7a5db4d864

My two bits: At one point during Rand's intervention in the battle at
Tarwin's Gap, in the penultimate chapter of The Eye of the World, this
happens:

"IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF
HE WILL.
"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself.
"Where?"
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten
spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him,
each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that
obscured the sun.
NOT HERE."

What the heck is that about? I've never been sold on the concept that
the Eye of the World was just a pool of saidin to be used when happened
upon - or a loose thread in RJ' vision for the series... I think it was
meant for something... so is this passage a clue to what it was meant
for?

WHAT is NOT HERE?

[Lorfarius]

Post by ***@yahoo.com
An old question, but I think I noticed something new in a reread of
TEOTW (in preparation for reading Knife of Dreams).
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_thread/thread/2222f3c1d5f7b834/358249e71ff075a5?q=eye+of+the+world\&rnum=1#358249e71ff075a5
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_thread/thread/87c243f42813d052/fc078b7a5db4d864?q=eye+of+the+world\&rnum=5#fc078b7a5db4d864
My two bits: At one point during Rand's intervention in the battle at
Tarwin's Gap, in the penultimate chapter of The Eye of the World, this
"IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF
HE WILL.
"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself.
"Where?"
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten
spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him,
each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that
obscured the sun.
NOT HERE."
What the heck is that about? I've never been sold on the concept that
the Eye of the World was just a pool of saidin to be used when happened
upon - or a loose thread in RJ' vision for the series... I think it was
meant for something... so is this passage a clue to what it was meant
for?
WHAT is NOT HERE?

I always thought that referred to the final battle. Rand will have the power
to win it when the wheel reaches that point in time but it will be his
choice what he does. The last dragon chose to break the world, Rand will
have choice to do something different.

[Tom Kelsall]

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 22:16:00 +0100, the keys started rattling, and

Post by Lorfarius

<gratuitous snippage>
"IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF
HE WILL.
"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself.
"Where?"
WHAT is NOT HERE?

I always thought that referred to the final battle. Rand will have the power
to win it when the wheel reaches that point in time but it will be his
choice what he does. The last dragon chose to break the world, Rand will
have choice to do something different.

I think "Chose to break the World" is a bit unfair... I don't think
his mind was up to making choices at that point. If you remember,
Ishamael had to clean his mind in order to completely destroy him, by
letting him know what he'd done.

I wondered about this passage too, though. Is that supposed to be The
Creator, talking directly to a character?

[David Chapman]

Post by Lorfarius
The last dragon chose to break the world,

No, he didn't. Lews Therin technically *began* the Breaking by creating
Dragonmount, but it wasn't his intention to do so. In fact, it wasn't *any*
male Aes Sedai's intention to break the world - it just happened as a result
of their going mad, over a period of 300 years.

[Bill]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Lorfarius
The last dragon chose to break the world,

No, he didn't. Lews Therin technically *began* the Breaking by creating
Dragonmount, but it wasn't his intention to do so. In fact, it wasn't *any*
male Aes Sedai's intention to break the world - it just happened as a result
of their going mad, over a period of 300 years.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

I have a small pet theory that the Eye of the World somehow held a
remnant of LTT that slowly manifested itself so Rand could survey until
the last battle. Every since the first book Rand has done things he
didn't know how to do, more so after he used the Eye of the World.
Maybe LTT was in his subconscious giving him the know how to do it.
Like I said it's my small pet theory.

[[e-mail]]

I like to think that the all caps are the Creator talking... after all,
the DO has to have a counterpart, albeit not one as active a he is...

So once again, WHAT is not here?

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Bill

Post by David Chapman

Post by Lorfarius
The last dragon chose to break the world,

No, he didn't. Lews Therin technically *began* the Breaking by creating
Dragonmount, but it wasn't his intention to do so. In fact, it wasn't *any*
male Aes Sedai's intention to break the world - it just happened as a result
of their going mad, over a period of 300 years.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

I have a small pet theory that the Eye of the World somehow held a
remnant of LTT that slowly manifested itself so Rand could survey until
the last battle. Every since the first book Rand has done things he
didn't know how to do, more so after he used the Eye of the World.
Maybe LTT was in his subconscious giving him the know how to do it.
Like I said it's my small pet theory.

What is Rand surveying?

[Lorfarius]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Lorfarius
The last dragon chose to break the world,

No, he didn't. Lews Therin technically *began* the Breaking by creating
Dragonmount, but it wasn't his intention to do so. In fact, it wasn't
*any* male Aes Sedai's intention to break the world - it just happened as
a result of their going mad, over a period of 300 years.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

I thought Lewis Therin had his sanity restored for just a few moments and it
was then he decided (hence chose) to create Dragonmount and break the world.
So it wasnt his madness that broke the world as he was perfectly sane at the
time.

[Cairone Belaero]

Post by Lorfarius

Post by David Chapman

Post by Lorfarius
The last dragon chose to break the world,

No, he didn't. Lews Therin technically *began* the Breaking by creating
Dragonmount, but it wasn't his intention to do so. In fact, it wasn't
*any* male Aes Sedai's intention to break the world - it just happened as
a result of their going mad, over a period of 300 years.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

I thought Lewis Therin had his sanity restored for just a few moments and it
was then he decided (hence chose) to create Dragonmount and break the world.
So it wasnt his madness that broke the world as he was perfectly sane at the
time.

Actually, Lews Therin didn't begin the breaking with Dragonmount.
Recall what Ishamael said (and you can believe him on this; evil will
let you know the truth when it hurts) "Even now the Hundred Companions
are tearing the world apart, and a hundred more join them every day."
The Breaking was in progress at that time. Certainly Lews Therin
contributed before Dragonmount, and he was insane long enough to
slaughter his whole extended family. But recall, much of the land had
been altered already. The river was already in place, and even if it
dried up for a time later on, that area did not change much if at all
after Dragonmount.

--CB

[Paul Lints]

Post by Lorfarius

Post by David Chapman

Post by Lorfarius
The last dragon chose to break the world,

No, he didn't. Lews Therin technically *began* the Breaking by creating
Dragonmount, but it wasn't his intention to do so. In fact, it wasn't
*any* male Aes Sedai's intention to break the world - it just happened as
a result of their going mad, over a period of 300 years.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

I thought Lewis Therin had his sanity restored for just a few moments and it
was then he decided (hence chose) to create Dragonmount and break the world.
So it wasnt his madness that broke the world as he was perfectly sane at the
time.

It wasn't madness caused by the taint, true. But do you think a man
would truly retain sanity after realizing he had just murderered
everyone he had ever cared for? I doubt he was any less nuts after his
dialogue with Ishamael than he was before, albeit due to different causes.

[Will Frank]

Post by Paul Lints
It wasn't madness caused by the taint, true. But do you think a man
would truly retain sanity after realizing he had just murderered
everyone he had ever cared for? I doubt he was any less nuts after his
dialogue with Ishamael than he was before, albeit due to different causes.

He may have been "driven crazy" in the way we sometimes use the term--he
was acting wildly, full of grief and rage, suicidal--but before Ishmael
healed him he was actually not connected with reality.

He was insane, then Ishmael healed him and he went mad.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Lorfarius

Post by David Chapman

Post by Lorfarius
The last dragon chose to break the world,

No, he didn't. Lews Therin technically *began* the Breaking by creating
Dragonmount, but it wasn't his intention to do so. In fact, it wasn't
*any* male Aes Sedai's intention to break the world - it just happened as
a result of their going mad, over a period of 300 years.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

I thought Lewis Therin had his sanity restored for just a few moments and it
was then he decided (hence chose) to create Dragonmount and break the world.
So it wasnt his madness that broke the world as he was perfectly sane at the
time.

How could LTT have stopped the Breaking at that point? There were many other
male AS insane or going insane! How did his committing suicide worsen the
situation?

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Lorfarius

Post by ***@yahoo.com
An old question, but I think I noticed something new in a reread of
TEOTW (in preparation for reading Knife of Dreams).
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_thread/thread/2222f3c1d5f7b834/358249e71ff075a5?q=eye+of+the+world\&rnum=1#358249e71ff075a5
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_thread/thread/87c243f42813d052/fc078b7a5db4d864?q=eye+of+the+world\&rnum=5#fc078b7a5db4d864
My two bits: At one point during Rand's intervention in the battle at
Tarwin's Gap, in the penultimate chapter of The Eye of the World, this
"IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF
HE WILL.
"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself.
"Where?"
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten
spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him,
each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that
obscured the sun.
NOT HERE."
What the heck is that about? I've never been sold on the concept that
the Eye of the World was just a pool of saidin to be used when happened
upon - or a loose thread in RJ' vision for the series... I think it was
meant for something... so is this passage a clue to what it was meant
for?
WHAT is NOT HERE?

I always thought that referred to the final battle. Rand will have the power
to win it when the wheel reaches that point in time but it will be his
choice what he does. The last dragon chose to break the world, Rand will
have choice to do something different.

LTT didn't break the world of his own free will. He was insane from the Taint at the time!

[Cairone Belaero]

Post by ***@yahoo.com
An old question, but I think I noticed something new in a reread of
TEOTW (in preparation for reading Knife of Dreams).
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_thread/thread/2222f3c1d5f7b834/358249e71ff075a5?q=eye+of+the+world\&rnum=1#358249e71ff075a5
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_thread/thread/87c243f42813d052/fc078b7a5db4d864?q=eye+of+the+world\&rnum=5#fc078b7a5db4d864
My two bits: At one point during Rand's intervention in the battle at
Tarwin's Gap, in the penultimate chapter of The Eye of the World, this
"IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF
HE WILL.
"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself.
"Where?"
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten
spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him,
each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that
obscured the sun.
NOT HERE."
What the heck is that about? I've never been sold on the concept that
the Eye of the World was just a pool of saidin to be used when happened
upon - or a loose thread in RJ' vision for the series... I think it was
meant for something... so is this passage a clue to what it was meant
for?
WHAT is NOT HERE?

We know from book 4 that the Aes Sedai at the time of the making of the
Eye were attempting to safeguard certain items--certainly the Horn of
Valere, and maybe they believed the seal found at the Eye would be the
last one to break instead of the first. Foretelling isn't as clear as
it could be. If these items were meant for the Dragon Reborn to find,
then they needed some sort of protection that would ensure that he
would be the one to find them--sort of like the ward around Callendor.
I don't know if saidin was meant to be used per se (used up in case of
defense, or just channelled away, I don't know), but it was probably
meant as the ward to hide the Horn. It shouldn't be saidar, because
the Dragon wouldn't be able to channel it away, and it shouldn't be
tainted saidin, lest something about it corrode the very items they
wanted to protect. Therefore they had to make it pure. We don't know
how much those Aes Sedai knew about when Rand would uncover the Eye,
but we do know that they knew he would. (No, it doesn't specifically
say so in Rand's trip back through the eyes of his ancestors, but that
is a conclusion that is fairly simple to draw.)

As for what is not here, recall what Rand was demanding. He wanted an
END. He wanted to stop all this fighting and killing, the despair, the
darkness. But the END was not there. Even a minor confrontation with
Ishamael was not there. It was atop the staircase, in Tel'aran'rhiod
or wherever, and the Last Battle is yet to come. The Creator will take
no part; it is up to Rand to take the steps (both literal and
figurative) that will lead him to the end. Already we see there Rand
taking up the yoke of the Dragon, choosing of his own volition to
confront the Shadow.

--CB

[zed246]

Post by Cairone Belaero
We know from book 4 that the Aes Sedai at the time of the making of the
Eye were attempting to safeguard certain items--certainly the Horn of
Valere, and maybe they believed the seal found at the Eye would be the
last one to break instead of the first. Foretelling isn't as clear as
it could be. If these items were meant for the Dragon Reborn to find,
then they needed some sort of protection that would ensure that he
would be the one to find them--sort of like the ward around Callendor.
I don't know if saidin was meant to be used per se (used up in case of
defense, or just channelled away, I don't know), but it was probably
meant as the ward to hide the Horn. It shouldn't be saidar, because
the Dragon wouldn't be able to channel it away, and it shouldn't be
tainted saidin, lest something about it corrode the very items they
wanted to protect. Therefore they had to make it pure. We don't know
how much those Aes Sedai knew about when Rand would uncover the Eye,
but we do know that they knew he would. (No, it doesn't specifically
say so in Rand's trip back through the eyes of his ancestors, but that
is a conclusion that is fairly simple to draw.)
As for what is not here, recall what Rand was demanding. He wanted an
END. He wanted to stop all this fighting and killing, the despair, the
darkness. But the END was not there. Even a minor confrontation with
Ishamael was not there. It was atop the staircase, in Tel'aran'rhiod
or wherever, and the Last Battle is yet to come. The Creator will take
no part; it is up to Rand to take the steps (both literal and
figurative) that will lead him to the end. Already we see there Rand
taking up the yoke of the Dragon, choosing of his own volition to
confront the Shadow.
--CB

An end? If you ask me The End was right there in the book.
If you ask me TEOTW was not supposed to be the first book in a series
and I don't care what anyone (including RJ and TOR) has to say on the
subject. When we read the end of the book everything is almost
completly at an end:
1. Rand is the Drgon Reobrn.
2. He battled the Dark One and won (only later we learn who it realy
was).
3. There was a big fight with Human Vs. Trollocs (Tarwin Gap).

This was supposed to be the poorly writen end to the poorly writen book
of When Dune Meets Lord of The Rings which just happened to have a-lot
of unsolved plot lines which none but barely started to get intresting.
The only reason I've read the second book was because someone had
already bought it for me. TGH was a much better book (this time When
Lord of The Rings Meets Some Original Stuff) which actualy developed
ALL the plot lines from the first (including some of which I didn't
know there was a plot line).
Well, maybe I've been carried away a bit, but still - my feeling, when
finishing reading the first book, was "So what under the Light did he
write about on the 700 pages of 'The Great Hunt'?" Then I looked at the
back cover and yelped: "He'd gone to eight books?! Blood and bloody
ashes!"

So if you ask me the Creator (or whoever) meant literaly that the way
to end the battles and death etc. was not there, in the Eye, but in
Tarwin Gap, so he placed Rand there. And som Rand had won TG and the
fourth age begun. End of story. If you ask me, writing TGH was like
Spaceballs 2 - The Quest For More Money, after the first book went well.

[Davian]

Post by zed246

Post by Cairone Belaero
We know from book 4 that the Aes Sedai at the time of the making of the
Eye were attempting to safeguard certain items--certainly the Horn of
Valere, and maybe they believed the seal found at the Eye would be the
last one to break instead of the first. Foretelling isn't as clear as
it could be. If these items were meant for the Dragon Reborn to find,
then they needed some sort of protection that would ensure that he
would be the one to find them--sort of like the ward around Callendor.
I don't know if saidin was meant to be used per se (used up in case of
defense, or just channelled away, I don't know), but it was probably
meant as the ward to hide the Horn. It shouldn't be saidar, because
the Dragon wouldn't be able to channel it away, and it shouldn't be
tainted saidin, lest something about it corrode the very items they
wanted to protect. Therefore they had to make it pure. We don't know
how much those Aes Sedai knew about when Rand would uncover the Eye,
but we do know that they knew he would. (No, it doesn't specifically
say so in Rand's trip back through the eyes of his ancestors, but that
is a conclusion that is fairly simple to draw.)
As for what is not here, recall what Rand was demanding. He wanted an
END. He wanted to stop all this fighting and killing, the despair, the
darkness. But the END was not there. Even a minor confrontation with
Ishamael was not there. It was atop the staircase, in Tel'aran'rhiod
or wherever, and the Last Battle is yet to come. The Creator will take
no part; it is up to Rand to take the steps (both literal and
figurative) that will lead him to the end. Already we see there Rand
taking up the yoke of the Dragon, choosing of his own volition to
confront the Shadow.
--CB

An end? If you ask me The End was right there in the book.
If you ask me TEOTW was not supposed to be the first book in a series
and I don't care what anyone (including RJ and TOR) has to say on the
subject. When we read the end of the book everything is almost
1. Rand is the Drgon Reobrn.
2. He battled the Dark One and won (only later we learn who it realy
was).
3. There was a big fight with Human Vs. Trollocs (Tarwin Gap).

4) None of Min's prophecies were fufilled.
5) The Stone of Tear didn't fall.
6) The Horn of Valere wasn't used at the Last Battle.

Er, wait... those don't fit.

In my opinion, Jordan intended to go many, many books, but the series was
written with two outs in mind. He wrote it so that if the publisher got it
and said, "whew this kind of stinks, but I'll publish Eye of the World
anyways." then he could just end it there. Especially if he deleted a couple
lines here and there.

If it was successful, he would go to plan B. A trilogy like most other
authors get, three books ending with Rand defeating the Dark One as the Stone
of Tear falls. The only things unresolved there would be a few of Min's
prophecies (but not nearly as many), and that the Horn of Valere wasn't used
in the Last Battle, but just before it instead. (And in the wrong
location."The mountains shall guard.")

If the trilogy was really successful, then plan C. The Dark One that was
killed was just Ishamael, and he writes an eplilogue, then the rest of the
series. After book 3, he seemed to stop wrapping things up at all. All of
the books after that have a multitude of plot lines dangling if it was to end
then.

[Paul Lints]

Post by zed246

Post by Cairone Belaero
We know from book 4 that the Aes Sedai at the time of the making of the
Eye were attempting to safeguard certain items--certainly the Horn of
Valere, and maybe they believed the seal found at the Eye would be the
last one to break instead of the first. Foretelling isn't as clear as
it could be. If these items were meant for the Dragon Reborn to find,
then they needed some sort of protection that would ensure that he
would be the one to find them--sort of like the ward around Callendor.
I don't know if saidin was meant to be used per se (used up in case of
defense, or just channelled away, I don't know), but it was probably
meant as the ward to hide the Horn. It shouldn't be saidar, because
the Dragon wouldn't be able to channel it away, and it shouldn't be
tainted saidin, lest something about it corrode the very items they
wanted to protect. Therefore they had to make it pure. We don't know
how much those Aes Sedai knew about when Rand would uncover the Eye,
but we do know that they knew he would. (No, it doesn't specifically
say so in Rand's trip back through the eyes of his ancestors, but that
is a conclusion that is fairly simple to draw.)
As for what is not here, recall what Rand was demanding. He wanted an
END. He wanted to stop all this fighting and killing, the despair, the
darkness. But the END was not there. Even a minor confrontation with
Ishamael was not there. It was atop the staircase, in Tel'aran'rhiod
or wherever, and the Last Battle is yet to come. The Creator will take
no part; it is up to Rand to take the steps (both literal and
figurative) that will lead him to the end. Already we see there Rand
taking up the yoke of the Dragon, choosing of his own volition to
confront the Shadow.
--CB

An end? If you ask me The End was right there in the book.
If you ask me TEOTW was not supposed to be the first book in a series
and I don't care what anyone (including RJ and TOR) has to say on the
subject. When we read the end of the book everything is almost
1. Rand is the Drgon Reobrn.
2. He battled the Dark One and won (only later we learn who it realy
was).
3. There was a big fight with Human Vs. Trollocs (Tarwin Gap).

Why mention the Forsaken, then? Why have them find the Horn of Valere?
Or even further, why find a seal on the Dark One's prison? Surely if
there was a seal existing, the entity Rand fought could not have been
the Dark One.

tEotW would have probably been the only book in the series if it
flopped, and it was written so it was at least halfway acceptable in
that respect. But it's rather obvious that sequels were planned right
from the beginning.

[[e-mail]]

I actually thought TEOTW had a very nice "tribute" thing going with the
lord of the rings... idyllic village... bumpkins set out, unwittingly
part of something larger...

And I have to say I agree with Davian and Paul - practical publishing
constraints dictated a lot of content, but the book was a huge
exposition/ setup book - definitely the first movement in a larger
theme.

But leading to what? That's what I was hoping to speculate on... A lot
of things set up in the initial books (the forsaken, Rand/ Lan and
Luc/I sam, Min, the Stone of Tear, the Aiel for instance) came to mean
a lot in the overall story arc later... So I just can't think RJ would
allow two huge things - The Eye and The Horn to be loose ends that dont
matter at the Last Battle.

We all know why the horn is there... to recall the heroes of old
(personally I think Mat is going to die and live again sometime soon to
allow the horn to be blown by Rand at Tarmon Gai'don).

So why was the Eye made in such desperation by the men and women of the
age of legends, with a Nym to guard it?

[Auwerda1]

Post by ***@yahoo.com
I actually thought TEOTW had a very nice "tribute" thing going with the
lord of the rings... idyllic village... bumpkins set out, unwittingly
part of something larger...

<snip some stuff>

Post by ***@yahoo.com
We all know why the horn is there... to recall the heroes of old
(personally I think Mat is going to die and live again sometime soon to
allow the horn to be blown by Rand at Tarmon Gai'don).

That particular prophecy has been fulfilled. See the FAQ:

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

[Davian]

Post by Auwerda1

Post by ***@yahoo.com
We all know why the horn is there... to recall the heroes of old
(personally I think Mat is going to die and live again sometime soon to
allow the horn to be blown by Rand at Tarmon Gai'don).

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

In this part I don't really agree with the FAQ, about their view on whether
Mat is still bound to the Horn. I don't buy the whole "Balefire means he
never died, since it was undone" argument. If balefire meant he never died,
then he wouldn't have really fulfilled the prophecy there, to my way of
thinking.

It's actually one of my loony theories. I think that currently the Horn is
unbound, to be sounded by anyone. I believe that at some point, it will be
stolen again, either by Fain or another main character that serves the Shadow.
And I believe that person will sound the Horn at the Last Battle, to complete
their "victory" over the Light. They're going to get a bit of a surprise
when they do though... because they will learn that everyone was right that
the Heroes would come to whoever called them, even a Darkfriend... but that
doesn't mean they will follow the Shadow. As Hawkwing said in TGH... "We are
bound to the Horn, but we must follow the banner, and the Dragon Reborn."

[Auwerda1]

Post by Davian

Post by Auwerda1

Post by ***@yahoo.com
We all know why the horn is there... to recall the heroes of old
(personally I think Mat is going to die and live again sometime soon to
allow the horn to be blown by Rand at Tarmon Gai'don).

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

In this part I don't really agree with the FAQ, about their view on whether
Mat is still bound to the Horn. I don't buy the whole "Balefire means he
never died, since it was undone" argument. If balefire meant he never died,
then he wouldn't have really fulfilled the prophecy there, to my way of
thinking.
It's actually one of my loony theories. I think that currently the Horn is
unbound, to be sounded by anyone. I believe that at some point, it will be
stolen again, either by Fain or another main character that serves the Shadow.
And I believe that person will sound the Horn at the Last Battle, to complete
their "victory" over the Light. They're going to get a bit of a surprise
when they do though... because they will learn that everyone was right that
the Heroes would come to whoever called them, even a Darkfriend... but that
doesn't mean they will follow the Shadow. As Hawkwing said in TGH... "We are
bound to the Horn, but we must follow the banner, and the Dragon Reborn."
--
Jeff
Davian / Dearic

I see where you're coming from, and I quite like your theory. And I gave up
on balefire making any sense a long time ago.

[[e-mail]]

speaking of balefire... if it was taboo even in the Age of Legends, how
did Moiraine know it well enough to use it on Be'lal?

Eh... for the record - I've given up on it too!

[Lorfarius]

Post by ***@yahoo.com
speaking of balefire... if it was taboo even in the Age of Legends, how
did Moiraine know it well enough to use it on Be'lal?
Eh... for the record - I've given up on it too!

Im with the theory that its Jordans quick way out of holes hes written
himself into.

[David Chapman]

Post by ***@yahoo.com
speaking of balefire... if it was taboo even in the Age of Legends, how
did Moiraine know it well enough to use it on Be'lal?

She worked it out, or maybe even read how to do it. It wasn't so much taboo
in the sense of "Don't mention the balefire!", as it was "Do not make
balefire.
Just so you don't do it by accident, here's what not to do."

[Davian]

Post by David Chapman

Post by ***@yahoo.com
speaking of balefire... if it was taboo even in the Age of Legends, how
did Moiraine know it well enough to use it on Be'lal?

She worked it out, or maybe even read how to do it. It wasn't so much taboo
in the sense of "Don't mention the balefire!", as it was "Do not make
balefire.
Just so you don't do it by accident, here's what not to do."

Either read how to do it, or she had already known where to find someone that
could teach her. She says that she specifically sought out the knowledge
following the confrontation at the Eye of the World, while Rand was following
the Horn.

[Zdenek Dvorak]

Hello,

Post by Davian

Post by David Chapman

Post by ***@yahoo.com
speaking of balefire... if it was taboo even in the Age of Legends, how
did Moiraine know it well enough to use it on Be'lal?

She worked it out, or maybe even read how to do it. It wasn't so much taboo
in the sense of "Don't mention the balefire!", as it was "Do not make
balefire.
Just so you don't do it by accident, here's what not to do."

Either read how to do it, or she had already known where to find someone that
could teach her. She says that she specifically sought out the knowledge
following the confrontation at the Eye of the World, while Rand was following
the Horn.

I think she learned it from book(s) during her stay with Adeleas and
Vandene (TGH,Ch22) (no real evidence for this, but it is the only place
I recall she did something close to studying).

Zdenek

[Leigh Butler]

Post by Davian

Post by Auwerda1

Post by ***@yahoo.com
We all know why the horn is there... to recall the heroes of old
(personally I think Mat is going to die and live again sometime soon to
allow the horn to be blown by Rand at Tarmon Gai'don).

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

In this part I don't really agree with the FAQ, about their view on whether
Mat is still bound to the Horn. I don't buy the whole "Balefire means he
never died, since it was undone" argument. If balefire meant he never died,
then he wouldn't have really fulfilled the prophecy there, to my way of
thinking.

*shrug* I personally didn't care for it much either, but I must be
consistent. What RJ says goes. Even if he contradicts himself.

(Not that he has here, at least AFAIK, but he has on other topics.)

Post by Davian
It's actually one of my loony theories. I think that currently the Horn is
unbound, to be sounded by anyone. I believe that at some point, it will be
stolen again, either by Fain or another main character that serves the Shadow.

God, I hope not. Let the Horn remain safely uninvolved in the Plot
until it's time for Mat to blow it in the Last Battle, I say. We've got
quite enough on our plate to clear up without introducing Yet Another
Hunt for the Horn.

[Davian]

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian

Post by ***@yahoo.com
We all know why the horn is there... to recall the heroes of old
(personally I think Mat is going to die and live again sometime soon to
allow the horn to be blown by Rand at Tarmon Gai'don).

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
In this part I don't really agree with the FAQ, about their view on whether
Mat is still bound to the Horn. I don't buy the whole "Balefire means he
never died, since it was undone" argument. If balefire meant he never died,
then he wouldn't have really fulfilled the prophecy there, to my way of
thinking.

*shrug* I personally didn't care for it much either, but I must be
consistent. What RJ says goes. Even if he contradicts himself.
(Not that he has here, at least AFAIK, but he has on other topics.)

I don't think Jordan has contradicted himself here. I just think people read
into his response something that wasn't there. (Although I suppose I
probably shouldn't say that, since I didn't see the direct quote of what he
said. )

Jordan confirmed that the balefire incident fufilled the prophecy about Mat
dying and living once more. The FAQ then seems to travel from there to
saying he confirmed Mat is still linked to the Horn... without Jordan actually
having commented on that part of it.

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
It's actually one of my loony theories. I think that currently the Horn is
unbound, to be sounded by anyone. I believe that at some point, it will be
stolen again, either by Fain or another main character that serves the Shadow.

God, I hope not. Let the Horn remain safely uninvolved in the Plot
until it's time for Mat to blow it in the Last Battle, I say. We've got
quite enough on our plate to clear up without introducing Yet Another
Hunt for the Horn.

Well, it wouldn't have to be quite as grand or involving as the one in book 2.
More of a "What else could go wrong?" mention, then resolve it at the end.

I understand your objection to it, but you have to understand it's hard for me
to abandon a pet theory that I've been working on for about 8 years now....

[Karsten]

Post by Davian
Jordan confirmed that the balefire incident fufilled the prophecy about Mat
dying and living once more. The FAQ then seems to travel from there to
saying he confirmed Mat is still linked to the Horn... without Jordan actually
having commented on that part of it.

How?? As far as I can read, he only confirms that the incident in Rhuidean
wasn't the fulfillment of the prophecy. When he (Mat) is saved by Rand BFing
Rhavin, I would think that he never died (teknically), so couldn't the
prophecy still be unfulfilled ??


Karsten

[Davian]

Post by Karsten

Post by Davian
Jordan confirmed that the balefire incident fufilled the prophecy about Mat
dying and living once more. The FAQ then seems to travel from there to
saying he confirmed Mat is still linked to the Horn... without Jordan actually
having commented on that part of it.

How?? As far as I can read, he only confirms that the incident in Rhuidean
wasn't the fulfillment of the prophecy. When he (Mat) is saved by Rand BFing
Rhavin, I would think that he never died (teknically), so couldn't the
prophecy still be unfulfilled ??

About 2/3 of the way down the page that was linked.

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

Bill Garrett's report of RJ's appearance at Balticon 30 (April 1996) mentions:
"(Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his
death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and
then living again.)"

[Karsten]

Post by Davian

Post by Karsten
How?? As far as I can read, he only confirms that the incident in Rhuidean
wasn't the fulfillment of the prophecy. When he (Mat) is saved by Rand BFing
Rhavin, I would think that he never died (teknically), so couldn't the
prophecy still be unfulfilled ??

About 2/3 of the way down the page that was linked.
http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html
"(Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his
death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and
then living again.)"

<sigh> my bad - sorry.

Karsten

[Leigh Butler]

<Whether Mat is still bound to the Horn>

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

Post by Davian

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
In this part I don't really agree with the FAQ, about their view on

whether

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
Mat is still bound to the Horn. I don't buy the whole "Balefire means he
never died, since it was undone" argument. If balefire meant he never

died,

Post by Leigh Butler

Post by Davian
then he wouldn't have really fulfilled the prophecy there, to my way of
thinking.

*shrug* I personally didn't care for it much either, but I must be
consistent. What RJ says goes.

Jordan confirmed that the balefire incident fufilled the prophecy about Mat
dying and living once more. The FAQ then seems to travel from there to
saying he confirmed Mat is still linked to the Horn... without Jordan actually
having commented on that part of it.

The FAQ doesn't say RJ confirmed Mat is still linked to the Horn. As
far as I know, RJ hasn't said anything one way or the other on that
particular question.

But it follows logically from his confirmation that it was the Caemlyn
incident and not the Rhuidean one that fulfills the prophecy about Mat
dying and living again, because of the way balefire works.

If it had been the Rhuidean incident, I would have no trouble believing
that it was possible that Mat's link to the Horn is broken, but once
you involve the time-rewinding of balefire, I don't think there's a way
to propose that his link is broken and have it make any sense.

<snip>

Post by Davian
I understand your objection to it, but you have to understand it's hard for me
to abandon a pet theory that I've been working on for about 8 years now....

I understand. I just don't agree with it. C'est la vie.

[David Chapman]

Post by Leigh Butler
If it had been the Rhuidean incident, I would have no trouble believing
that it was possible that Mat's link to the Horn is broken, but once
you involve the time-rewinding of balefire, I don't think there's a way
to propose that his link is broken and have it make any sense.

I don't think balefire rewinds time and replays it, so much as it bumps the
Pattern into a different weave by removing a thread. Like a pile of
sticks - you remove one, the rest fall into a new configuration. In this
case, there was a point when Mat was dead and that might be enough to break
the link with the Horn.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Davian

Post by Auwerda1

Post by ***@yahoo.com
We all know why the horn is there... to recall the heroes of old
(personally I think Mat is going to die and live again sometime soon to
allow the horn to be blown by Rand at Tarmon Gai'don).

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

In this part I don't really agree with the FAQ, about their view on whether
Mat is still bound to the Horn. I don't buy the whole "Balefire means he
never died, since it was undone" argument. If balefire meant he never died,
then he wouldn't have really fulfilled the prophecy there, to my way of
thinking.
It's actually one of my loony theories. I think that currently the Horn is
unbound, to be sounded by anyone. I believe that at some point, it will be
stolen again, either by Fain or another main character that serves the Shadow.
And I believe that person will sound the Horn at the Last Battle, to complete
their "victory" over the Light. They're going to get a bit of a surprise
when they do though... because they will learn that everyone was right that
the Heroes would come to whoever called them, even a Darkfriend... but that
doesn't mean they will follow the Shadow. As Hawkwing said in TGH... "We are
bound to the Horn, but we must follow the banner, and the Dragon Reborn."

So we could have Alvairin blow the Horn, the heroes come, but they attack the
Shadow when they see the DR and the banner.

[Karsten]

Post by Tim Bruening
So we could have Alvairin blow the Horn, the heroes come, but they attack the
Shadow when they see the DR and the banner.

Heh.. that could be a really cool scene in the last book in TG :o)

Karsten

[Lorfarius]

Post by Paul Lints
But it's rather obvious that sequels were planned right
from the beginning.

Theres no way Jordan could have known the series would be as big a success
as it was. Sure he could have planned as far as 2 or 3 books ahead but not
as far as the 10 we have so far. Just reading the first 3 on their own seems
quite complete. The story ends with number 3 but Jordan uses a bit of
artistic license with the 4th one and carries the tale on.