mixed messages between Moraine and Siuan?

[p***@hotmail.com]

In the stone of Tear Moraine says flat out to the wonder girls that she
had sent 3 pidgeons to Siuan warning her of a plot to free Taim. Yet
later on in TSR there is a scene with Siuan, Leane, and Min in where
Min is lamenting the fact that Moraine hasn't sent any word from Tear
even though rumors of the fall of the stone had already reached Tar
Valon. In this same scene Siuan gets two pidgeons, one from Moraine
telling her that "The sling has been used and the Shepard holds the
sword." The other telling her that Taim has escaped. It seems pretty
clear from this chapter that either Moraine lied about sending pigeons
warning about Taim, (unlikely) or that someone is interferring with
pigeon flights to Tar Valon. So what is happening to these pigeons,
and why did it take so long for a message to get from Moraine to Siuan
about the fall of the stone. And the other important question is where
did the 3 pigeons that Moraine sent warning of an escape attempt for
Taim not make it to Siuane either?

[Neil Anderson]

<snip>
So what is happening to these pigeons,
and why did it take so long for a message to get from Moraine to Siuan
about the fall of the stone. And the other important question is where
did the 3 pigeons that Moraine sent warning of an escape attempt for
Taim not make it to Siuane either?

Pigeon post is notoriously unreliable - they get eaten or could simply
get lost or die of exhaustion. So that is why Moiraine sent three
birds: she hoped that at least one of them would get through to the
White Tower.

Neil Anderson

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Neil Anderson

<snip>
So what is happening to these pigeons,
and why did it take so long for a message to get from Moraine to Siuan
about the fall of the stone. And the other important question is where
did the 3 pigeons that Moraine sent warning of an escape attempt for
Taim not make it to Siuane either?

Pigeon post is notoriously unreliable - they get eaten or could simply
get lost or die of exhaustion. So that is why Moiraine sent three
birds: she hoped that at least one of them would get through to the
White Tower.

Might those 3 pigeons have arrived at the WT AFTER Elaida replaced Siuan?

[Timothy Bruening]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Neil Anderson

<snip>
So what is happening to these pigeons,
and why did it take so long for a message to get from Moraine to Siuan
about the fall of the stone. And the other important question is where
did the 3 pigeons that Moraine sent warning of an escape attempt for
Taim not make it to Siuane either?

Pigeon post is notoriously unreliable - they get eaten or could simply
get lost or die of exhaustion. So that is why Moiraine sent three
birds: she hoped that at least one of them would get through to the
White Tower.

Might those 3 pigeons have arrived at the WT AFTER Elaida replaced Siuan?

Elaida: I just received a message from Moiraine of a plot to free Mazrim Taim! Its a bit late!

[Terra Ryzen]

In re-reading through the series for the third time, I am finding more
and more things that trouble me about Moiraine. I swear she is more than
meets the eye.

Here are a few examples:

1) That blooming staff! - No mention at all of Moiraine needing an "aid
to focus" in either version of New Spring and shouldn't the White Tower
have "beoken" her of any need for external aid? She was getting along
just fine in New Spring without it and gets along just fine after she
tosses it away. So what was its purpose???

2) The Moiraine/Verin connection and "The Lie" - I firmly believe
Moiraine **did** send Verin after Matt in The Great Hunt. What bothers
me is that she was able to lie about it. We have seen multiple chapters
from Verin's POV since then and there is no indication whatsoever of
Verin being able to lie or being Black.

3) Involuntary "Turning" - Someone made a comment in another thread (The
Green Man one I believe) about a gun leaning against the wall in Act 1
and then being fired in Act 3. Well, I believe, since RJ has said in
many places that someone can be involuntarily turned to the Shadow, that
the absolutely best candidate for such turning is/was Moiraine (after
that Egwene).

There are more instances about Moiraine that trouble me but these are the
three most prominent.

TR

[m***@here.com]

Post by Terra Ryzen
In re-reading through the series for the third time, I am finding more
and more things that trouble me about Moiraine. I swear she is more than
meets the eye.
1) That blooming staff! - No mention at all of Moiraine needing an "aid
to focus" in either version of New Spring and shouldn't the White Tower
have "beoken" her of any need for external aid? She was getting along
just fine in New Spring without it and gets along just fine after she
tosses it away. So what was its purpose???

I think this is a mishap on RJ's part though. Both the staff and the
'blue stone' were prominently mentioned in the first book, then not at
all since. A focal point to the mystery of channeling perhaps? I
dunno. But it seems too...pointless, otherwise.

Post by Terra Ryzen
2) The Moiraine/Verin connection and "The Lie" - I firmly believe
Moiraine **did** send Verin after Matt in The Great Hunt. What bothers
me is that she was able to lie about it. We have seen multiple chapters
from Verin's POV since then and there is no indication whatsoever of
Verin being able to lie or being Black.

The passage where Moirane was questioned about sending Verin, her
reaction and response seemed quite believable to me, I forgot the
wording but I always got the feeling from that passage that Verin was
the one who lied, since one of them necessarily had to have lied,
unless somebody else were able to pose as Moirane and sent Verin off.
Lanfear perhaps? A thought, in any case. In any event, there are
plenty of references about Verin having some hidden past about her,
and even in TGH when we're introduced to her, she's introduced first
through Moirane's eyes as being 'unaware of the world around her', but
turns out to be quite aware, being the only one to look to the heart
of the Dark Prophecy scribbled on the walls of the Dungeon in the
attack on Fal Dara. I don't necessarily think she's black, but there
certainly is more to learn about Verin. And, who better to both a)
know about how to free yourself from the oaths than a Brown, and who
better to actually go ahead with it than Verin, who kept the twisted
ring ter'angreal from the hall?

Post by Terra Ryzen
3) Involuntary "Turning" - Someone made a comment in another thread (The
Green Man one I believe) about a gun leaning against the wall in Act 1
and then being fired in Act 3. Well, I believe, since RJ has said in
many places that someone can be involuntarily turned to the Shadow, that
the absolutely best candidate for such turning is/was Moiraine (after
that Egwene).

I have no idea what you mean by acts here, or what event you're
refering to. The turning to the shadow has been mentioned in the books
themselves, so it's absolutely a possibility, however I don't really
believe that is what is present here.

Hans

[p***@hotmail.com]

I know that she sent 3 pigeons because they are unreliable, however, we
must assume that Moraine knew what she was up to. In fact her phrasing
of the situation is exactly this, "In fact, I sent three pigeons, to
make sure one reaches the tower." It seems to me that she is pretty
sure that 3 pigeons would ensure that the message got there, so why
didn't they?

The second question is why did it take so long for a message from
Moraine to reach Tar Valon about rand taking callanor and the fall of
the stone. From the chapter in which Siuan recieves this message we
know from Min that a man could have ridden from Tar Valon to Tear in
the time it took for the pigeon Moraine sent claiming that "the sling
had been used" and that "the shepard holds the sword." So the second
question is why did it take so long for Moraine to send word?

If we assume that Moraine can not lie, it would seem that the 3 Taim
pigeons were somehow intercepted. To my mind this would only be
possible to do at one end of the message or the other. Either the
message was never sent by the pigeon handlers in tear, or was
intercepted by who ever is in charge ensuring that messages that arrive
in Tar Valon reach the Amrylin. I reject the idea that the pigeons
were all intercepted in flight, as Moraine thinks that 3 should escape
the normal run of in-flight hazards, and the fact that if the forces of
evil can't track three tavreen they certainly can't track and intercept
3 pigeons flying through the air.

Of the two possibilities, I find it more likely that pigeons are being
intercepted in Tar Valon. First, I do not think that it is likely that
Moraine would hand over three copies of a highly important and
sensitive note to a low level tower agent and just assume that it would
not be read or mishandled. I imagine Moraine wrote the letters and
sent the pigeons off with her own hand. Secondly, it makes more sense
from the POV of the shadow to have an agent intercepting and filtering
all of the messages that make it to the Amrylin instead of just those
coming from Tear.

So, if you follow me so far, who has access to the notes that Siuan
recieves? The short answer is Lelaine. Or we can throw out the whole
idea of someone intercepting these pigeons and manipulating the
messages that Siuan recieves, and go with the idea that somehow Moraine
managed to lie about sending 3 pigeons warning of Mazrim Taim's
impending escape.

[Aaron F. Bourque]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
I know that she sent 3 pigeons because they are unreliable, however, we
must assume that Moraine knew what she was up to. In fact her phrasing
of the situation is exactly this, "In fact, I sent three pigeons, to
make sure one reaches the tower." It seems to me that she is pretty
sure that 3 pigeons would ensure that the message got there, so why
didn't they?

Oh my.

The subtext is that the Black Ajah has been intercepting the Tower's
mail. This was fairly obvious to me on a read-through. Another
possibility is that whoever's in charge of the pigeon coops in TV is
shopping info around to the various spy masters of each Ajah and other
organization, but the BA theory appeals to me because I don't think the
Aes Sedai were ever in as much control as they pretended.

The BA don't let the news pass through before one or more of the
following was true a) there was so much gossip on the streets that
everyone knew anyway, b) they had a contingency plan in place so that
anything the Tower tried in reaction they'd be ready for or whatever
the Tower tried was really their plan in disguise (think big kidnap in
LoC), and c) they had permission.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; first post here in a bit. Wow.

[Andrew Lusk]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
So, if you follow me so far, who has access to the notes that Siuan
recieves? The short answer is Lelaine. Or we can throw out the whole
idea of someone intercepting these pigeons and manipulating the
messages that Siuan recieves, and go with the idea that somehow Moraine
managed to lie about sending 3 pigeons warning of Mazrim Taim's
impending escape.

Alright. This is about the third thread where you have mentioned
Lelaine, the Blue sitter in the Salidar Hall. I think you mean Leane,
Siuan's Keeper of the Chronicles? First, there is an indication
somewhere that Leane does not have access to Siuan's "eyes and ears";
rather, Leane-not-Lelaine has her own set of eyes and ears. Second, we
know that the BA infests the tower, operates completely under the radar
(i.e., 99% of Aes Sedai don't even acknowledge its existence), and the
BA seems to have an incredible amount of information (e.g., secret
communications from within the BA and from the Forsaken (plural)
without; knowledge about who to silence/execute at critical times;
knowledge of what to ter'angreals to steal and who to leave the tower
and just in the nick of time, etc.), isn't it more plausible that the
BA managed to intercept 2 of the 3 messages? Finally, if one of the
messages that Moiraine sent actually reached Suian, why would she lie
about whether she sent one, two, three, or ten pigeons? I mean, if
none of the pigeons reached the tower, well maybe (and that is an
attenuated maybe) she lied, although the more logical and plain
explanation is simply that she sent the pigeons, and for whatever
reason the messages were either delayed or were otherwise unable to
reach Siuan.

Also, being lazy, I couldn't bother reading upthread as to what the
other two reasons were why you believe Moiraine lied. It would be
helpful if you could include quotes or references to your earlier
posts.

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by Andrew Lusk
Alright. This is about the third thread where you have mentioned
Lelaine, the Blue sitter in the Salidar Hall. I think you mean Leane,
Siuan's Keeper of the Chronicles?

You are right, I do/did mean Leane, sorry 'bout that.

Post by Andrew Lusk
there is an indication somewhere that Leane does not have access to Siuan's "eyes >and ears"; rather, Leane-not-Lelaine has her own set of eyes and ears.

There is another indication that Leane DOES have access to Siuan's eyes
and ears. In the chapter in question it is Leane who opens and reads
the messages to Suian. It seems that Siuan's BA paranoia does not
extent to her own keeper for some reason. But then, when have we ever
seen an Amrylin with a BA keeper, (I ask Sarcastically)?

Post by Andrew Lusk
isn't it more plausible that the
BA managed to intercept 2 of the 3 messages?

My argument is that they intercepted all three messages, as the one
message that Siuan did recieve from Moriane didn't mention Taim at all,
and was severely late.


Finally, if one of the

Post by Andrew Lusk
messages that Moiraine sent actually reached Suian, why would she lie
about whether she sent one, two, three, or ten pigeons? I mean, if
none of the pigeons reached the tower, well maybe (and that is an
attenuated maybe) she lied, although the more logical and plain
explanation is simply that she sent the pigeons, and for whatever
reason the messages were either delayed or were otherwise unable to
reach Siuan.

Yup, I agree. The merely mention the possibility of Moraine lying as
the only other explanation as to what happened to the messages besides
interception from the BA.

Post by Andrew Lusk
Also, being lazy, I couldn't bother reading upthread as to what the
other two reasons were why you believe Moiraine lied. It would be
helpful if you could include quotes or references to your earlier
posts.

Sure no problem, although you would have known most of the answers I
posted in this message if you had.

[b***@yahoo.com]

Post by m***@here.com

Post by Terra Ryzen
1) That blooming staff! - No mention at all of Moiraine needing an "aid
to focus" in either version of New Spring and shouldn't the White Tower
have "beoken" her of any need for external aid? She was getting along
just fine in New Spring without it and gets along just fine after she
tosses it away. So what was its purpose???

I think this is a mishap on RJ's part though. Both the staff and the
'blue stone' were prominently mentioned in the first book, then not at
all since. A focal point to the mystery of channeling perhaps? I
dunno. But it seems too...pointless, otherwise.

Much of the ephemeral stuff in the first and second books, I consider
non-canon. I believe RJ was still in process (somewhat) in these books,
which is why I don't get concerned about Ishy's unique method of
traveling in tEotW prologue, or some of the other inconsistencies.
IMHO, RJ hadn't totally worked it out yet.

Having said that, we have seen examples of objects being imbibed with
power, which is presumably more efficient for certain purposes. What
other reason is there for the business of the stones at the Battle of
Emond's Field?

Post by m***@here.com
Hans

[Chris Long]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
In the stone of Tear Moraine says flat out to the wonder girls that she
had sent 3 pidgeons to Siuan warning her of a plot to free Taim. Yet
later on in TSR there is a scene with Siuan, Leane, and Min in where
Min is lamenting the fact that Moraine hasn't sent any word from Tear
even though rumors of the fall of the stone had already reached Tar
Valon. In this same scene Siuan gets two pidgeons, one from Moraine
telling her that "The sling has been used and the Shepard holds the
sword." The other telling her that Taim has escaped. It seems pretty
clear from this chapter that either Moraine lied about sending pigeons
warning about Taim, (unlikely) or that someone is interferring with
pigeon flights to Tar Valon.

I never got that impression when I read the novels. She gets two
messages at the same time by pigeon. The first tells her that Taim has
already escaped. The second is from Moiraine saying that the Stone has
fallen. If Moiraine's letter also mentioned Taim, it has come too
late. Why would Siuan bother to relate that at all?

I always assumed that the letter Siuan received was not intercepted,
but the letter that Moiraine mentioned sending. Siuan just didn't tell
us *everything* the letter said, because there was no need to, it was
irrelevant.

If you look at the WOT timeline
(http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/tl0999.htm#book4), you can
see that Moiraine's mention of sending the pigeon, and the message's
arrival is only four days difference. That seems like a perfectly
acceptable amount of time for a pigeon to take to fly from Tear to Tar
Valon.

--
Chris

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by Chris Long
If you look at the WOT timeline
(http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/tl0999.htm#book4), you can
see that Moiraine's mention of sending the pigeon, and the message's
arrival is only four days difference. That seems like a perfectly
acceptable amount of time for a pigeon to take to fly from Tear to Tar
Valon.

I haven't looked at the timeline, but I don't need to, because the
chapter, the truth of a viewing starts with Suian sitting at her desk
reading her messages, upset that the only message that Moraine had sent
her was the one that said that the sling had been used and that the
shepard held the sword. In fact on the same page that she mentions
that it had been 3 weeks since she had recieved that message, she reads
the note to herself again, and confirms for us, that the message
mentions nothing about Taim. The facts remain, Siuan had recieved only
one message from Moraine, and that message was not one of the 3 Taim
messages that Moraine had sent. So either Moraine lied about sending
pigeons, all three pigeons died enroute, or the messages were being
intercepted.

[Chris Long]

Post by p***@hotmail.com

Post by Chris Long
If you look at the WOT timeline
(http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/tl0999.htm#book4), you can
see that Moiraine's mention of sending the pigeon, and the message's
arrival is only four days difference. That seems like a perfectly
acceptable amount of time for a pigeon to take to fly from Tear to Tar
Valon.

I haven't looked at the timeline, but I don't need to, because the
chapter, the truth of a viewing starts with Suian sitting at her desk
reading her messages, upset that the only message that Moraine had sent
her was the one that said that the sling had been used and that the
shepard held the sword. In fact on the same page that she mentions
that it had been 3 weeks since she had recieved that message, she reads
the note to herself again, and confirms for us, that the message
mentions nothing about Taim.

Well that will teach me to trust the WOT encyclopedia to provide
accurate information. It's my own fault for not reading it myself, but
my books are all packed up in preparation for moving to a new house.
Sorry.

[D. Todd Caslick]

***@hotmail.com wrote:

<snip message talk>

My thought is that the idea of intercepted messages is somewhat
irrelevant. Other than keeping information from getting to its intended
recipient, I would figure an intercepted Aes Sedai message would be
useless due to warding and cyphers. I figure that any message sent to
Siuan would be warded to self-destruct if someone else tries to read
it. Failing that, it would be written in a cypher that couldn't be
read. I think there was some indication in _New Spring_ that Siuan and
Moiraine had a personal cypher other than the one used by the Blue
Ajah.


Todd

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by D. Todd Caslick
<snip message talk>
My thought is that the idea of intercepted messages is somewhat
irrelevant. Other than keeping information from getting to its intended
recipient, I would figure an intercepted Aes Sedai message would be
useless due to warding and cyphers. I figure that any message sent to
Siuan would be warded to self-destruct if someone else tries to read
it. Failing that, it would be written in a cypher that couldn't be
read. I think there was some indication in _New Spring_ that Siuan and
Moiraine had a personal cypher other than the one used by the Blue
Ajah.

Except that Leane also read and understood the message. If it was a
cipher then it had to be one that Moraine, Siuan, and Leane all knew.
The idea of a blue ajah cipher does not preclude interception by the BA
as New Spring also gives an example of a blue/black sister. Secondly,
any message sent by a eyes and ears agent would not be warded and any
ajah ciphers would be public knowledge within the BA. The third
possibility is that the messages were being intercepted by Messanna,
who certainly has the know how to find a way through any warding given
enough time. In fact this seems like a very likely scenario.
Practically every other forsaken is making a move by book 4, why
couldn't this be the first impact of Messanna on Randland?