Moridin's New Orders (KoD SPOILERS)

[Rajiv Mote]

There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.

Moridin is getting angry. Even moreso than when he found out Rand was
going to cleanse saidin. He's losing his cool and yelling at the other
Forsaken. And he's given the Forsaken two new orders:

1. Hands off Rand -- he belongs to Moridin
2. Kill Mat and Perrin -- kill, kill kill

The order to leave Rand alone is nothing new. But I wonder if it has
taken on an added urgency to Moridin, now that he and Rand have a
Voldemort-Harry relationship. What kind of consequences does their
connection have for Moridin?

Knowing the "third man" is Moridin himself casts a strange light on
what we've seen. Lews Therin, the guy who froths at the mouth whenever
an Asha'man comes into the room, listens to Moridin's thoughts and even
nods in agreement. He even acknowledges a sort of kinship with him,
including him when saying "we are all destroyers." Ishamael has always
claimed that there have been turnings of the Wheel where the Dragon
became the Shadow's champion (a role Moridin now seems to fill), and
one of the Forsaken has said that Ishamael had divined secrets in the
fact that the Dragon was the reincarnation of a specific soul,
according to prophecy. And from Verin's scrap of writing (The Dragon
Reborn), we know that Ba'alzamon's name hid a name within another name
-- the truth of which burns and sears, a lie being our only shield. Is
there some deep, wacky, metaphysical connection between Rand's and
Moridin's souls?

And the consequences of Moridin's first order... Did this alter the
plans of the other Forsaken? Semirhage's plan was in place before
Moridin's orders, and its subsequent execution seemed to fail --
abruptly and spectacularly. I have little doubt that Semirhage meant
to be captured, but was this by her own design, or in response to
Moridin's orders?

As for the order to kill Mat and Perrin, none of the other Forsaken
seem to think it an urgent goal. What does Moridin know about the
importance of Mat and Perrin? He has been aware of the role of the man
with the ruby dagger and the Wolfbrother ever since The Eye of the
World -- why has he kept the rest of the Forsaken in the dark? And
why, when he showed the Mat's and Perrin's faces to a hall full of
Darkfriends (prologue to The Great Hunt), did he not do the same for
the Forsaken?

Offhand, I can only think of one attempt on either Mat's or Perrin's
life in Knife of Dreams: when Aram turned on Perrin. Could he have
been acting on the filtered-down order from Moridin? Supposedly, he
acted on persuasion by the Prophet, and there's no reason to doubt it.
There was an unaccounted-for Tinker at the Darkfriend Social in TGH,
but I'm more inclined to think Aram was one of those types easily
swayed by a violent madman. And unless Masema can somehow fool
Perrin's wolf-nose, Masema IS genuinely mad, not just a crafty
Darkfriend who knows how to influence mobs and fools. If he's both mad
AND a crafty Darkfriend, who's pulling his strings?

-- Rajiv

[Swithin]

"Hands off Rand" - I actually made an audible chuckle at that. :)

You're forgetting the archer who shot at Perrin at the Seanchan camp,
btw.

And yeah, I agree with you about Aram. His little declaration to Perrin
that Masema had "opened his eyes" seems more like he's determined to
kill Perrin, hates him because he actually admired him, and still needs
some justification for himself and needs to provide some concession to
Perrin before killing him. The hero-worship relationship still tugs at
him, somehow. Certainly this could still apply if he were a Darkfriend,
but it seems unlikely that he would be so attached to him if his
mission from the start included the possibility of offing him some day.

About Moridin, it's also possible (as with Elayne), that certain
conditions have been met that prophecy, or an innate understanding
about how the Pattern works, has convinced Moridin that of the forces
of the Dark only he has a chance to kill Rand. If their battle is
fated, sending forces at Rand will have little effect other than
perhaps taking a hand, and is otherwise a waste. The man's mad and
egomaniacal, but he's also nae'blis and a master of Dark One /
Creator-conflict history and prophecy. He just might Know Something.

[a***@comcast.net]

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.
[snip Hands off Rand and Kill Kill Kill]
Offhand, I can only think of one attempt on either Mat's or Perrin's
life in Knife of Dreams: when Aram turned on Perrin.

What about the assination attempt on Perrin when they went to
requisition the forkroot and the dozen guys that tried to kill Mat
outside the bar? Just random assinations?

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by a***@comcast.net

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.
[snip Hands off Rand and Kill Kill Kill]
Offhand, I can only think of one attempt on either Mat's or Perrin's
life in Knife of Dreams: when Aram turned on Perrin.

What about the assination attempt on Perrin when they went to
requisition the forkroot and the dozen guys that tried to kill Mat
outside the bar? Just random assinations?

I knew there'd be attempts I forgot about... Any notions on who the
Darkfriends are who could have ordered the attempts in Maderin and the
forkroot manufactory? Or were they just random Darkfriends in the
Forsaken's networks?

[j***@cub.kcnet.org]

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.
Moridin is getting angry. Even moreso than when he found out Rand was
going to cleanse saidin. He's losing his cool and yelling at the other
1. Hands off Rand -- he belongs to Moridin
2. Kill Mat and Perrin -- kill, kill kill
The order to leave Rand alone is nothing new. But I wonder if it has
taken on an added urgency to Moridin, now that he and Rand have a
Voldemort-Harry relationship. What kind of consequences does their
connection have for Moridin?

Both Mat and Perrin were targeted in TDR. It does seem odd that
suddenly
they need to be re-targeted.

Post by Rajiv Mote
Knowing the "third man" is Moridin himself casts a strange light on
what we've seen. Lews Therin, the guy who froths at the mouth whenever
an Asha'man comes into the room, listens to Moridin's thoughts and even
nods in agreement. He even acknowledges a sort of kinship with him,
including him when saying "we are all destroyers." Ishamael has always
claimed that there have been turnings of the Wheel where the Dragon
became the Shadow's champion (a role Moridin now seems to fill), and
one of the Forsaken has said that Ishamael had divined secrets in the
fact that the Dragon was the reincarnation of a specific soul,
according to prophecy. And from Verin's scrap of writing (The Dragon
Reborn), we know that Ba'alzamon's name hid a name within another name
-- the truth of which burns and sears, a lie being our only shield. Is
there some deep, wacky, metaphysical connection between Rand's and
Moridin's souls?

But didn't Jordan on blog or at a signing say that Ishamael's
natterings were false? That the Creator's champion (for lack of a
better phrase) has not been turned? That Ishamael was merely lying to
ease Rand to turning willingly to the Shadow?

Post by Rajiv Mote
And the consequences of Moridin's first order... Did this alter the
plans of the other Forsaken? Semirhage's plan was in place before
Moridin's orders, and its subsequent execution seemed to fail --
abruptly and spectacularly. I have little doubt that Semirhage meant
to be captured, but was this by her own design, or in response to
Moridin's orders?

Why on earth would Semirhage want captured and act in the manner in
which she did? If she wanted captured, she would have let her guise
drop. Not let it be removed (and from that scene she tries to hold her
guise in spite of Cadsuane taking it away). Atacking Rand like she did
was not aimed at getting captured. Brining along male a'dam was not
designed toward being captured. Ordering the sul'dam to shield
Cadsuane and Nynaeve was not aimed at being captured. I see absolutely
nothing in that scene that suggests Semirhage planned on not walking
away with a couple of male channelers in a'dam and the rest dead.

Post by Rajiv Mote
As for the order to kill Mat and Perrin, none of the other Forsaken
seem to think it an urgent goal. What does Moridin know about the
importance of Mat and Perrin? He has been aware of the role of the man
with the ruby dagger and the Wolfbrother ever since The Eye of the
World -- why has he kept the rest of the Forsaken in the dark? And
why, when he showed the Mat's and Perrin's faces to a hall full of
Darkfriends (prologue to The Great Hunt), did he not do the same for
the Forsaken?

There are problems with the Forsaken suddenly knowing what Perrin and
Mat look like. Sammael knows what Mat looks like. Moghedien likely
does too being in Salidar when Mat was there. Halima also knows what
Mat looks like as she was in Salidar and tried to channel at him. And
then sent Delana to query him and try to bond him. Demandred,
depending on where he is hiding, could well know what Perrin looks like
as Graendal claims Demandred and Osan'gar were set to watch Rand and
Perrin was with Rand up to and following the events at Dumai's Wells.
Actually Semirhage and Mesaana were the only two we don't know have
seen any of the three up close and in person at any point. Demandred
is a possibility but depending on how he was keeping an eye on Rand, he
might have been able to put an eye on the other two.

Post by Rajiv Mote
Offhand, I can only think of one attempt on either Mat's or Perrin's
life in Knife of Dreams: when Aram turned on Perrin. Could he have
been acting on the filtered-down order from Moridin? Supposedly, he
acted on persuasion by the Prophet, and there's no reason to doubt it.
There was an unaccounted-for Tinker at the Darkfriend Social in TGH,
but I'm more inclined to think Aram was one of those types easily
swayed by a violent madman. And unless Masema can somehow fool
Perrin's wolf-nose, Masema IS genuinely mad, not just a crafty
Darkfriend who knows how to influence mobs and fools. If he's both mad
AND a crafty Darkfriend, who's pulling his strings?

The attack on Mat outside of the Hell and the bowmen that attack and
would Perrin in front of Tylee both immediately seem like attacks on
the two as per Moridin's orders.

I think that Elaida has proven that a character's flaws can be used to
the Shadow's advantage without that person being a DF. I tend to think
that Masema's madness started when he was in the dungeon exposed to
Fain for such a long time. Masema already had an incredibly
conservative and fanatical mindset when Rand showed up. Prolonged
exposure to Fain further unhinged him. Making the perfect nutjob when
faced with the actual Dragon Reborn. Not to mention the DR proving to
be a man he hated rabidly.

I think that Masema's rise to power has not been ignored and at some
point one of the Forsaken, likely Demandred, took notice and has been
pushing Masema, unwittingly, toward his destructive course. I don't
think that Masema is acting directly as a darkfriend though.

I have problems with Aram attacking Perrin. It just is not plausible
in this sudden manner, imo. However, I always thought that Aram was a
DF and was at the DF social. However, I think that Aram recanted. Or
was forced to recant watching his people get slaughtered in the Two
Rivers by the Trollocs. Aram had the world pulled from under his feet.
He had gone against the creed of his own people thinking to save them
by joining the Shadow. Then the Shadow killed his people. Aram turns
to the sword and puts his faith in Faile and in Perrin to a lesser
degree. I guess Aram then blames Perrin for losing Faile. Making him
vulnerable to Masema's hot-eyed fantacism. And if Aram was a DF, then
he might have transfered his own guilt for any responsibility he might
have felt at his people being killed by Trollocs to Perrin. Instant
Perrin is a Darkfriend for Aram.

Problem is I am not sure Jordan is that clever. And one thing about
the prevailing structure of KOD is that Jordan has no problem
addressing matters raised by fans. So I can see Jordan tweaking
direction in order to spite us as well. I think some plots were
dropped due to losing interest or scope or just to piss us off at
times. His admitted adversarial stance is rather troublesome. And
Aram's death does not leave much room for exploration into motivation
beyond the surface seen in those few sentences. Perhaps if and when
Masema is cornered he will spill forth details. Most likely though he
will die.

---
JSH

[Een Wilde Ier]

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.

<snip>

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
And the consequences of Moridin's first order... Did this alter the
plans of the other Forsaken? Semirhage's plan was in place before
Moridin's orders, and its subsequent execution seemed to fail --
abruptly and spectacularly. I have little doubt that Semirhage meant
to be captured, but was this by her own design, or in response to
Moridin's orders?

Why on earth would Semirhage want captured and act in the manner in
which she did? If she wanted captured, she would have let her guise
drop. Not let it be removed (and from that scene she tries to hold her
guise in spite of Cadsuane taking it away). Atacking Rand like she did
was not aimed at getting captured. Brining along male a'dam was not
designed toward being captured. Ordering the sul'dam to shield
Cadsuane and Nynaeve was not aimed at being captured. I see absolutely
nothing in that scene that suggests Semirhage planned on not walking
away with a couple of male channelers in a'dam and the rest dead.

And females (there were silvery leashes, too)

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
There are problems with the Forsaken suddenly knowing what Perrin and
Mat look like. Sammael knows what Mat looks like. Moghedien likely
does too being in Salidar when Mat was there. Halima also knows what
Mat looks like as she was in Salidar and tried to channel at him. And
then sent Delana to query him and try to bond him. Demandred,
depending on where he is hiding, could well know what Perrin looks like
as Graendal claims Demandred and Osan'gar were set to watch Rand and
Perrin was with Rand up to and following the events at Dumai's Wells.
Actually Semirhage and Mesaana were the only two we don't know have
seen any of the three up close and in person at any point. Demandred
is a possibility but depending on how he was keeping an eye on Rand, he
might have been able to put an eye on the other two.

Semihrage presumably saw Mat on occasion when he was Tylin's Toy, hence
her rueful remark about how this might already have been taken care of,
if she had known to recognise him.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
Offhand, I can only think of one attempt on either Mat's or Perrin's
life in Knife of Dreams: when Aram turned on Perrin. Could he have
been acting on the filtered-down order from Moridin? Supposedly, he
acted on persuasion by the Prophet, and there's no reason to doubt it.
There was an unaccounted-for Tinker at the Darkfriend Social in TGH,
but I'm more inclined to think Aram was one of those types easily
swayed by a violent madman. And unless Masema can somehow fool
Perrin's wolf-nose, Masema IS genuinely mad, not just a crafty
Darkfriend who knows how to influence mobs and fools. If he's both mad
AND a crafty Darkfriend, who's pulling his strings?

The attack on Mat outside of the Hell and the bowmen that attack and
would Perrin in front of Tylee both immediately seem like attacks on
the two as per Moridin's orders.
I think that Elaida has proven that a character's flaws can be used to
the Shadow's advantage without that person being a DF. I tend to think
that Masema's madness started when he was in the dungeon exposed to
Fain for such a long time. Masema already had an incredibly
conservative and fanatical mindset when Rand showed up. Prolonged
exposure to Fain further unhinged him. Making the perfect nutjob when
faced with the actual Dragon Reborn. Not to mention the DR proving to
be a man he hated rabidly.

I'd rather put it down to _ta'veren_ work, namely that Masema has some
vital role to play.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I think that Masema's rise to power has not been ignored and at some
point one of the Forsaken, likely Demandred, took notice and has been
pushing Masema, unwittingly, toward his destructive course. I don't
think that Masema is acting directly as a darkfriend though.

He's just a part of the Pattern that has yet to play out.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I have problems with Aram attacking Perrin. It just is not plausible
in this sudden manner, imo. However, I always thought that Aram was a
DF and was at the DF social. However, I think that Aram recanted. Or
was forced to recant watching his people get slaughtered in the Two
Rivers by the Trollocs. Aram had the world pulled from under his feet.
He had gone against the creed of his own people thinking to save them
by joining the Shadow. Then the Shadow killed his people. Aram turns
to the sword and puts his faith in Faile and in Perrin to a lesser
degree. I guess Aram then blames Perrin for losing Faile. Making him
vulnerable to Masema's hot-eyed fantacism. And if Aram was a DF, then
he might have transfered his own guilt for any responsibility he might
have felt at his people being killed by Trollocs to Perrin. Instant
Perrin is a Darkfriend for Aram.

I don't think so. There's neither the usual suspicions or the shock!
revelation Jordan usually throws out when a character is a Darkfriend.
Aram's story is done, finished, over. Maybe RJ got bored of it, or it
was minor enough to be pruned away in order to finish with the next book.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Problem is I am not sure Jordan is that clever. And one thing about
the prevailing structure of KOD is that Jordan has no problem
addressing matters raised by fans. So I can see Jordan tweaking
direction in order to spite us as well. I think some plots were
dropped due to losing interest or scope or just to piss us off at
times.

Taimandred, for one.

[Davian]

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.

But didn't Jordan on blog or at a signing say that Ishamael's
natterings were false? That the Creator's champion (for lack of a
better phrase) has not been turned? That Ishamael was merely lying to
ease Rand to turning willingly to the Shadow?

Actually, I believe Jordan said just the opposite. That yes, in the past the
Dragon had went over to the Shadow, and no it had not resulted in the final
victory for the Dark side, just a partial victory.

I remember it because I really don't like it. I don't think it makes any
sense within the world Jordan has presented.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
As for the order to kill Mat and Perrin, none of the other Forsaken
seem to think it an urgent goal. What does Moridin know about the
importance of Mat and Perrin? He has been aware of the role of the man
with the ruby dagger and the Wolfbrother ever since The Eye of the
World -- why has he kept the rest of the Forsaken in the dark? And
why, when he showed the Mat's and Perrin's faces to a hall full of
Darkfriends (prologue to The Great Hunt), did he not do the same for
the Forsaken?

There are problems with the Forsaken suddenly knowing what Perrin and
Mat look like. Sammael knows what Mat looks like.

Why would there be problems with that? As early as the Darkfriend social in
book 2, Ishamael was shoving thier image in front of every Darkfriend he could
lay his hands on.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I think that Elaida has proven that a character's flaws can be used to
the Shadow's advantage without that person being a DF. I tend to think
that Masema's madness started when he was in the dungeon exposed to
Fain for such a long time. Masema already had an incredibly
conservative and fanatical mindset when Rand showed up. Prolonged
exposure to Fain further unhinged him. Making the perfect nutjob when
faced with the actual Dragon Reborn. Not to mention the DR proving to
be a man he hated rabidly.

Masema was never mentioned as one of the guards on Fain. He did not appear
to have duties in the prison, but was instead a main gate guard.

It's possible that it happened off screen, but it is never mentioned.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I have problems with Aram attacking Perrin. It just is not plausible
in this sudden manner, imo. However, I always thought that Aram was a
DF and was at the DF social. However, I think that Aram recanted. Or
was forced to recant watching his people get slaughtered in the Two
Rivers by the Trollocs. Aram had the world pulled from under his feet.
He had gone against the creed of his own people thinking to save them
by joining the Shadow. Then the Shadow killed his people. Aram turns
to the sword and puts his faith in Faile and in Perrin to a lesser
degree. I guess Aram then blames Perrin for losing Faile. Making him
vulnerable to Masema's hot-eyed fantacism. And if Aram was a DF, then
he might have transfered his own guilt for any responsibility he might
have felt at his people being killed by Trollocs to Perrin. Instant
Perrin is a Darkfriend for Aram.

I like that explanation. Although I'm not sure thats what Jordan had in
mind. IMO he had a lot of plans for Aram and his whole relationship with
Perrin, but he decided to cut it out in an effort to end the series sooner.
It would have just taken too long to tell the Aram story the proper way.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Problem is I am not sure Jordan is that clever. And one thing about
the prevailing structure of KOD is that Jordan has no problem
addressing matters raised by fans. So I can see Jordan tweaking
direction in order to spite us as well. I think some plots were
dropped due to losing interest or scope or just to piss us off at
times. His admitted adversarial stance is rather troublesome. And
Aram's death does not leave much room for exploration into motivation
beyond the surface seen in those few sentences. Perhaps if and when
Masema is cornered he will spill forth details. Most likely though he
will die.

[j***@cub.kcnet.org]

Post by Davian

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.

But didn't Jordan on blog or at a signing say that Ishamael's
natterings were false? That the Creator's champion (for lack of a
better phrase) has not been turned? That Ishamael was merely lying to
ease Rand to turning willingly to the Shadow?

Actually, I believe Jordan said just the opposite. That yes, in the past the
Dragon had went over to the Shadow, and no it had not resulted in the final
victory for the Dark side, just a partial victory.
I remember it because I really don't like it. I don't think it makes any
sense within the world Jordan has presented.

Already noted that Jordan has said Ishamael is known for lying. So
whether that is Jordan's way to cloud the issue or whether it is an
admisson that the soul that became the Dragon never switched remains to
be seen. But no, there is no admision the Creator's champion in some
pre-Dragon incarnation ever switched.

And it makes sense that he never did switch as that seems to be the key
to instant DO freedom (though not the only one).

Post by Davian

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
As for the order to kill Mat and Perrin, none of the other Forsaken
seem to think it an urgent goal. What does Moridin know about the
importance of Mat and Perrin? He has been aware of the role of the man
with the ruby dagger and the Wolfbrother ever since The Eye of the
World -- why has he kept the rest of the Forsaken in the dark? And
why, when he showed the Mat's and Perrin's faces to a hall full of
Darkfriends (prologue to The Great Hunt), did he not do the same for
the Forsaken?

There are problems with the Forsaken suddenly knowing what Perrin and
Mat look like. Sammael knows what Mat looks like.

Why would there be problems with that? As early as the Darkfriend social in
book 2, Ishamael was shoving thier image in front of every Darkfriend he could
lay his hands on.

But the problem is that some of the Forsaken already know prior. and
some by admission claim not to. they might be lying, but I doubt if
Semirhage knew who Mat was when he was so close to her, she would have
let him go. By your own comment, you present the problem that the
Forsaken did not all know what Mat looked like despite the fact they
should.

Post by Davian

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I think that Elaida has proven that a character's flaws can be used to
the Shadow's advantage without that person being a DF. I tend to think
that Masema's madness started when he was in the dungeon exposed to
Fain for such a long time. Masema already had an incredibly
conservative and fanatical mindset when Rand showed up. Prolonged
exposure to Fain further unhinged him. Making the perfect nutjob when
faced with the actual Dragon Reborn. Not to mention the DR proving to
be a man he hated rabidly.

Masema was never mentioned as one of the guards on Fain. He did not appear
to have duties in the prison, but was instead a main gate guard.
It's possible that it happened off screen, but it is never mentioned.

I recalled a mention of Masema and the dungeons but upon looking
through it was only Rand's thought in comparing him to Changu. My bad.

Post by Davian

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I have problems with Aram attacking Perrin. It just is not plausible
in this sudden manner, imo. However, I always thought that Aram was a
DF and was at the DF social. However, I think that Aram recanted. Or
was forced to recant watching his people get slaughtered in the Two
Rivers by the Trollocs. Aram had the world pulled from under his feet.
He had gone against the creed of his own people thinking to save them
by joining the Shadow. Then the Shadow killed his people. Aram turns
to the sword and puts his faith in Faile and in Perrin to a lesser
degree. I guess Aram then blames Perrin for losing Faile. Making him
vulnerable to Masema's hot-eyed fantacism. And if Aram was a DF, then
he might have transfered his own guilt for any responsibility he might
have felt at his people being killed by Trollocs to Perrin. Instant
Perrin is a Darkfriend for Aram.

I like that explanation. Although I'm not sure thats what Jordan had in
mind. IMO he had a lot of plans for Aram and his whole relationship with
Perrin, but he decided to cut it out in an effort to end the series sooner.
It would have just taken too long to tell the Aram story the proper way.

I tend to believe that Arma was diminished greatly as well. I think
Jordan though made that change more out of a fit of pique than a need
to finish the series. Had he really wanted to develop Aram fully and
allow the final scene to play out in complete logic and exposition,
Aram could have been shown sniffing around Masema in the two books
prior.


---
JSH

[Davian]

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Davian

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.

But didn't Jordan on blog or at a signing say that Ishamael's
natterings were false? That the Creator's champion (for lack of a
better phrase) has not been turned? That Ishamael was merely lying to
ease Rand to turning willingly to the Shadow?

Actually, I believe Jordan said just the opposite. That yes, in the past the
Dragon had went over to the Shadow, and no it had not resulted in the final
victory for the Dark side, just a partial victory.
I remember it because I really don't like it. I don't think it makes any
sense within the world Jordan has presented.

Already noted that Jordan has said Ishamael is known for lying. So
whether that is Jordan's way to cloud the issue or whether it is an
admisson that the soul that became the Dragon never switched remains to
be seen. But no, there is no admision the Creator's champion in some
pre-Dragon incarnation ever switched.
And it makes sense that he never did switch as that seems to be the key
to instant DO freedom (though not the only one).

Oh I agree with your thoughts. I don't think it makes sense that Ishamael was
telling the truth, but according to what Jordan stated at a signing, it has
happened.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2031430C

[j***@cub.kcnet.org]

Post by Davian

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Davian

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that

is

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Davian

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.

But didn't Jordan on blog or at a signing say that Ishamael's
natterings were false? That the Creator's champion (for lack of a
better phrase) has not been turned? That Ishamael was merely lying to
ease Rand to turning willingly to the Shadow?

Actually, I believe Jordan said just the opposite. That yes, in the past

the

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Davian
Dragon had went over to the Shadow, and no it had not resulted in the

final

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Davian
victory for the Dark side, just a partial victory.
I remember it because I really don't like it. I don't think it makes any
sense within the world Jordan has presented.

Already noted that Jordan has said Ishamael is known for lying. So
whether that is Jordan's way to cloud the issue or whether it is an
admisson that the soul that became the Dragon never switched remains to
be seen. But no, there is no admision the Creator's champion in some
pre-Dragon incarnation ever switched.
And it makes sense that he never did switch as that seems to be the key
to instant DO freedom (though not the only one).

Oh I agree with your thoughts. I don't think it makes sense that Ishamael was
telling the truth, but according to what Jordan stated at a signing, it has
happened.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2031430C
From the answers I heard last week to similar questions, I think Jordan

himself is confused. One answer was exactly worded liek the one
linked. Another was quite different and alluded to different souls
being the Champion. Which got a WTF from everyone around me and every
followup I heard attempted got a RAFO. However I am pretty sure that
before Jordan has said that the soul of LTT and Rand is the champion.
That is why it exists.

To make matters worse, the first signing I ever went to Jordan said
that the DO was the Master of Lies (in reference to has the DO ever won
before) and that if the DO broke totaly free the wheel would be broken
and time would end. Which means that Fel's theory of the DO needed to
break free in order to be imprisoned makes no sense. Of course this
was pre-Fel. But then I have seen five different variations of answers
to a couple of questions from other signing reports. And while each
may overlap another, all five cannot be correct.

At this rate, I think the final book stands to be either a surprising
stroke of genius (highly unlikely) or the biggest cluster fuck of
implausibility since someone gave Terry Goodkind a pen and said "start
writing".

---
JSH

[Jamie Bowden]

To make matters worse, the first signing I ever went to Jordan said that
the DO was the Master of Lies (in reference to has the DO ever won
before) and that if the DO broke totaly free the wheel would be broken
and time would end. Which means that Fel's theory of the DO needed to
break free in order to be imprisoned makes no sense. Of course this was
pre-Fel. But then I have seen five different variations of answers to a
couple of questions from other signing reports. And while each may
overlap another, all five cannot be correct.

Fel's point is that the current patch over the hole in reality that
allows the GL to touch the world must be removed before the hole can be
properly repaired. The GL being able to touch the world is not a victory
condition for him, merely a prerequisite.

Jamie Bowden

[p***@aol.com]

Post by Davian

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I have problems with Aram attacking Perrin. It just is not plausible
in this sudden manner, imo. However, I always thought that Aram was a
DF and was at the DF social. However, I think that Aram recanted. Or
was forced to recant watching his people get slaughtered in the Two
Rivers by the Trollocs. Aram had the world pulled from under his feet.
He had gone against the creed of his own people thinking to save them
by joining the Shadow. Then the Shadow killed his people. Aram turns
to the sword and puts his faith in Faile and in Perrin to a lesser
degree. I guess Aram then blames Perrin for losing Faile. Making him
vulnerable to Masema's hot-eyed fantacism. And if Aram was a DF, then
he might have transfered his own guilt for any responsibility he might
have felt at his people being killed by Trollocs to Perrin. Instant
Perrin is a Darkfriend for Aram.

I like that explanation. Although I'm not sure thats what Jordan had in
mind. IMO he had a lot of plans for Aram and his whole relationship with
Perrin, but he decided to cut it out in an effort to end the series sooner.
It would have just taken too long to tell the Aram story the proper way.

It certainly came across as a rushed conclusion - just like Galad/Valda
and a few other things that had been niggling away for a while without
resolution.

Philip Bowles

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.

<SNIP>

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
But didn't Jordan on blog or at a signing say that Ishamael's
natterings were false? That the Creator's champion (for lack of a
better phrase) has not been turned? That Ishamael was merely lying to
ease Rand to turning willingly to the Shadow?

At Dragon*Con, somebody asked about previous Dragons being raised up as
the Shadow's champion, and RJ replied, with plenty of scorn in his
voice, "You'd believe ISHAMAEL??" Which, of course, isn't an answer.
And even if he did answer directly, I wouldn't necessarily trust the
answer. RJ hasn't held any Oath Rod, and I see no incentive for him to
make any real revelations through any medium except his books.
Especially if he wants to preserve the surprise, as he has stated.

I come back to Verin's ancient manuscript in The Dragon Reborn, talking
about Ba'alzamon's identity. "A lie is our shield." Ishamael may be
lying, but at least one author seems to think that the world needs a
lie to protect it from an Awful Truth. What that truth is... remains
to be seen.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Why on earth would Semirhage want captured and act in the manner in
which she did? If she wanted captured, she would have let her guise
drop. Not let it be removed (and from that scene she tries to hold her
guise in spite of Cadsuane taking it away). Atacking Rand like she did
was not aimed at getting captured. Brining along male a'dam was not
designed toward being captured. Ordering the sul'dam to shield
Cadsuane and Nynaeve was not aimed at being captured. I see absolutely
nothing in that scene that suggests Semirhage planned on not walking
away with a couple of male channelers in a'dam and the rest dead.

After suffering utter defeat at the hands of Rand's minions (not even
Rand himself) at Shadar Logoth, one of the Forsaken would still be
willing to spring an obvious trap that depended solely on the Mask of
Mirrors? She would bring only three damane to this meeting, and allow
Rand to bring five people who can channel? She would make these
arrangements to bring down a known ta'veren who has killed off several
Forsaken including Ishamael himself? Maybe I'm just giving Semirhage
too much credit because I want her to be a formidible villain, but she
could only have expected to capture Rand if she was a complete
delusional idiot.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Actually Semirhage and Mesaana were the only two we don't know have
seen any of the three up close and in person at any point. Demandred
is a possibility but depending on how he was keeping an eye on Rand, he
might have been able to put an eye on the other two.

Semirhage apparently didn't know what Mat looked like -- or she would
have known better when Mat walked in on her (posing as Anath), Tuon,
Suroth and Tylin in Winter's Heart. Hence her comment to Moridin.

It just boggles the mind that Ishamael would brief a hall full of
Darkfriends in the prologue of The Great Hunt, but not give the same
information to his lieutenants. Unless Ishamael's secret plans are
completely at cross-purposes with the rest of the Forsaken, and he's
planning on using them only as cannon fodder.

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I have problems with Aram attacking Perrin. It just is not plausible
in this sudden manner, imo. However, I always thought that Aram was a
DF and was at the DF social. However, I think that Aram recanted. Or
was forced to recant watching his people get slaughtered in the Two
Rivers by the Trollocs. Aram had the world pulled from under his feet.
He had gone against the creed of his own people thinking to save them
by joining the Shadow. Then the Shadow killed his people. Aram turns
to the sword and puts his faith in Faile and in Perrin to a lesser
degree. I guess Aram then blames Perrin for losing Faile. Making him
vulnerable to Masema's hot-eyed fantacism. And if Aram was a DF, then
he might have transfered his own guilt for any responsibility he might
have felt at his people being killed by Trollocs to Perrin. Instant
Perrin is a Darkfriend for Aram.

I like the story arc you've posited for Aram -- it makes him a little
like Ingtar in that regard. Unless it's contradicted, I think I'll
just add that to my mental model of Aram -- an "untold tale." It's
likely we won't hear anything about him in the next book anyway, and as
it stands, his end was hollow.

-- Rajiv

[j***@cub.kcnet.org]

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.

<SNIP>

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
But didn't Jordan on blog or at a signing say that Ishamael's
natterings were false? That the Creator's champion (for lack of a
better phrase) has not been turned? That Ishamael was merely lying to
ease Rand to turning willingly to the Shadow?

At Dragon*Con, somebody asked about previous Dragons being raised up as
the Shadow's champion, and RJ replied, with plenty of scorn in his
voice, "You'd believe ISHAMAEL??" Which, of course, isn't an answer.
And even if he did answer directly, I wouldn't necessarily trust the
answer. RJ hasn't held any Oath Rod, and I see no incentive for him to
make any real revelations through any medium except his books.
Especially if he wants to preserve the surprise, as he has stated.

Thanks. Considering Jordan's latest penchant for divulging critical
plot elements anywhere _but_ the actual books, I probably tend toward
taking Jordan at face value for as much as a trust the man. Which,
granted, is not much.

Post by Rajiv Mote
I come back to Verin's ancient manuscript in The Dragon Reborn, talking
about Ba'alzamon's identity. "A lie is our shield." Ishamael may be
lying, but at least one author seems to think that the world needs a
lie to protect it from an Awful Truth. What that truth is... remains
to be seen.

I thought that was pretty obivous ages ago. The lie being the shield
was that Ishamael was not fully bound as everyone believed.

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Why on earth would Semirhage want captured and act in the manner in
which she did? If she wanted captured, she would have let her guise
drop. Not let it be removed (and from that scene she tries to hold her
guise in spite of Cadsuane taking it away). Atacking Rand like she did
was not aimed at getting captured. Brining along male a'dam was not
designed toward being captured. Ordering the sul'dam to shield
Cadsuane and Nynaeve was not aimed at being captured. I see absolutely
nothing in that scene that suggests Semirhage planned on not walking
away with a couple of male channelers in a'dam and the rest dead.

After suffering utter defeat at the hands of Rand's minions (not even
Rand himself) at Shadar Logoth, one of the Forsaken would still be
willing to spring an obvious trap that depended solely on the Mask of
Mirrors? She would bring only three damane to this meeting, and allow
Rand to bring five people who can channel? She would make these
arrangements to bring down a known ta'veren who has killed off several
Forsaken including Ishamael himself? Maybe I'm just giving Semirhage
too much credit because I want her to be a formidible villain, but she
could only have expected to capture Rand if she was a complete
delusional idiot.

Semirhage's stupidity is hardly an issue as to going in and expecting
to be captured. I think you give Jordan too much credit. Not
Semirhage. Jordan wants Semirhage captured and does so in an
incredibly lazy and half-assed manner. Had the capture been more than
just a propelling of a plot element, Jordan would have taken the time
to show the duel through the eyes of one of the female channelers. But
the fact of the matter is that if you start using Semirhage's
characteristics as a guide to determine her motives it's a lose-lose
proposition. Because if the poor execution means that a good planner
like Semirhage must want captured, then conversely, she did a horrible
job of planning to be captured. Just as horrible, if not worse, than
the actual attack. I find it rather credulous that someone as
unbending and proud as Semirhage would put herself in a position that
could lead to her death or being stilled. She has no guarantee that
she would not be executed. Just because Rand is a sap about killing
women, does not mean that Semirhage would not be collateral damage. And
consider. She disguised herself. She attacked when that disguise was
breached. And she made every effort to take out the rest with Rand.
Semirhage was captured due to two unexpected occurences. The first was
Cadsuane's unexpected piercing of Illusion. And Cadsuane and Nynaeve
both being able to hide that they already embraced the Source. So from
Semirhage's pov, the plan was a good thing. It almost succeeded and
would have if the contemporary channelers had not suddenly shown
abilities that no others have had to this point.

It is just bad writing on Jordan's part. Implausibility rules again.

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Actually Semirhage and Mesaana were the only two we don't know have
seen any of the three up close and in person at any point. Demandred
is a possibility but depending on how he was keeping an eye on Rand, he
might have been able to put an eye on the other two.

Semirhage apparently didn't know what Mat looked like -- or she would
have known better when Mat walked in on her (posing as Anath), Tuon,
Suroth and Tylin in Winter's Heart. Hence her comment to Moridin.

Well the oddity of none of them knowing is what I was trying to convey
in general. We don't know if at any point, Semirhage or Mesaana have
been anywhere near any of the three at one time or another. I have no
problem with that. I do with the fact that Moridin seems to feel the
need to show them when it seemed every Fade and DF knew as early as TGH
and as late as the start of TDR.

Post by Rajiv Mote
It just boggles the mind that Ishamael would brief a hall full of
Darkfriends in the prologue of The Great Hunt, but not give the same
information to his lieutenants. Unless Ishamael's secret plans are
completely at cross-purposes with the rest of the Forsaken, and he's
planning on using them only as cannon fodder.

Yes it does. It also boggles the mind that since Sammael knew about
Mat and Slayer knew about Perrin that none of the rest of them ferreted
it out. Let's not forget that every sister in the Tower knew there
were three ta'veren at Fal Dara. Three childhood friends. Even if
Ishamael was the only one to realize the full importance of the other
two via the Prophecies, I can't see the other Forsaken not taking a
look anf figuring out themselves. Or just seeing them as perfect
collateral damage. As Egwene and Nyaneve are viewed post-TGH. I think
once again poor writing.

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I have problems with Aram attacking Perrin. It just is not plausible
in this sudden manner, imo. However, I always thought that Aram was a
DF and was at the DF social. However, I think that Aram recanted. Or
was forced to recant watching his people get slaughtered in the Two
Rivers by the Trollocs. Aram had the world pulled from under his feet.
He had gone against the creed of his own people thinking to save them
by joining the Shadow. Then the Shadow killed his people. Aram turns
to the sword and puts his faith in Faile and in Perrin to a lesser
degree. I guess Aram then blames Perrin for losing Faile. Making him
vulnerable to Masema's hot-eyed fantacism. And if Aram was a DF, then
he might have transfered his own guilt for any responsibility he might
have felt at his people being killed by Trollocs to Perrin. Instant
Perrin is a Darkfriend for Aram.

I like the story arc you've posited for Aram -- it makes him a little
like Ingtar in that regard. Unless it's contradicted, I think I'll
just add that to my mental model of Aram -- an "untold tale." It's
likely we won't hear anything about him in the next book anyway, and as
it stands, his end was hollow.

Well sadly, I think many of us will be having to create our own
apocrypha of motive, action and reaction concerning much of the
storyline presented over the entire series at the rate of COT and KOD.
In rereading this summer, I noticed many things that have way too much
emphasis for my peace of mind to be just "filler" when you then compare
them to the actual filler Jordan gave us in TPOD, WH, COT and KOD. Or
the revised New Spring for that matter.

---
JSH

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
I come back to Verin's ancient manuscript in The Dragon Reborn, talking
about Ba'alzamon's identity. "A lie is our shield." Ishamael may be
lying, but at least one author seems to think that the world needs a
lie to protect it from an Awful Truth. What that truth is... remains
to be seen.

I thought that was pretty obivous ages ago. The lie being the shield
was that Ishamael was not fully bound as everyone believed.

You may be right, but I really hope not. After all, what kind of
"shield" is ignorance of the fact that The Enemy's #1 Lieutenant is
running loose? It's a poor shield that lets the instigator of the
Trolloc Wars and the Hundred Years War act unseen and unchallenged.

Mostly, I hope that there's a deeper secret in Verin's manuscript
because I hope that Verin is basing all her actions on some super-scary
occult knowledge about the Way Things Really Are. And the reason she's
acting alone is that a lie truly is our shield, and the the rest of the
world just can't handle the truth.

-- Rajiv

[j***@cub.kcnet.org]

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org

Post by Rajiv Mote
I come back to Verin's ancient manuscript in The Dragon Reborn, talking
about Ba'alzamon's identity. "A lie is our shield." Ishamael may be
lying, but at least one author seems to think that the world needs a
lie to protect it from an Awful Truth. What that truth is... remains
to be seen.

I thought that was pretty obivous ages ago. The lie being the shield
was that Ishamael was not fully bound as everyone believed.

You may be right, but I really hope not. After all, what kind of
"shield" is ignorance of the fact that The Enemy's #1 Lieutenant is
running loose? It's a poor shield that lets the instigator of the
Trolloc Wars and the Hundred Years War act unseen and unchallenged.

Yes but the record that fragment came from was written during the
Breaking. By the time it was written, Ishamael's stint of being
partially bound could have been over. Either it was assumed that he
was gone for good or the author figured out the cycle. Regardless, the
records were fragmented and mostly lost by the time of the Trolloc Wars
more than a thousand years later. Let alone 2000 year at the time of
Hawkwing. Whoever wrote the original record obviously thought they
were providing an adequate warning.

Post by Rajiv Mote
Mostly, I hope that there's a deeper secret in Verin's manuscript
because I hope that Verin is basing all her actions on some super-scary
occult knowledge about the Way Things Really Are. And the reason she's
acting alone is that a lie truly is our shield, and the the rest of the
world just can't handle the truth.

Verin's knowledge of Perrin's whole theme seems to indicate that she is
a real scholar of the Prophecies of the Dragon Reborn. So I don't
think that particular document has to be pivotal to get your wish.

One thing to consider is that Verin sees a greater task at hand than
even guiding the DR. That perhaps Verin is planning for something as
momentous (in her eyes) as the Last Battle. Or perhaps what happens
after the Last Battle. Or....Well the list is long.

I often thought that Verin was the original BA hunter. That the
fragment of the document in question was a clue that Ishamael being
partially bound might indeed have been something that didn't happen
just once. Or go away. And she linked Ishamael to the Trolloc Wars
and the advent of the BA.

Now I am not so sure. I wonder if Jordan really has some grand
conniving going on with Verin or whether it is just a facade and will
turn out to be as mundane, say, as how he resolved Careane as BA and
the presumption she killed Adeleas and Ispan. Jordan seems to be
taking the easy way out on some the plotlines resolution. Whether
because that was the original intention and I gave him much more credit
as a writer/creator or because he just wants to wrap things up and
baths don't leave much for actual exploration and reveal.

I would like to see Verin's secret to turn out to be something more
interesting than seventy years ago she first knew the DR was coming.

---
JSH

[Umair]

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.

<SNIP>

Post by Rajiv Mote
It just boggles the mind that Ishamael would brief a hall full of
Darkfriends in the prologue of The Great Hunt, but not give the same
information to his lieutenants. Unless Ishamael's secret plans are
completely at cross-purposes with the rest of the Forsaken, and he's
planning on using them only as cannon fodder.

<SNIP>

Ishamael wasnt nae'blis then. I think he was competing with the other
forsaken back then.

[p***@aol.com]

Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
I have problems with Aram attacking Perrin. It just is not plausible
in this sudden manner, imo.

I think it was plausible, it just wasn't satisfactory. A simple,
blatant attempt to kill Perrin isn't anything especially new and,
however close Aram came to succeeding, doesn't seem important enough
for MIn's foreboding vision about Aram, particularly since Aram has
been at best a peripheral character for several books now. As for an
exploration of his motives, again the character simply wasn't important
enough. We know about his fanaticism and his conversion to Masema
happened off-screen, but makes sense in light of what we'd been told of
his activities. There's no need to invoke the Dark One to explain
personality traits, however extreme.

Philip Bowles

[loial]

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.

<snip>

Post by Rajiv Mote
As for the order to kill Mat and Perrin, none of the other Forsaken
seem to think it an urgent goal. What does Moridin know about the
importance of Mat and Perrin? He has been aware of the role of the man
with the ruby dagger and the Wolfbrother ever since The Eye of the
World -- why has he kept the rest of the Forsaken in the dark? And
why, when he showed the Mat's and Perrin's faces to a hall full of
Darkfriends (prologue to The Great Hunt), did he not do the same for
the Forsaken?
<snip>

I think he was working independently early in the series, and all the
FS hadn't been released yet anyway. In any case, at the beginning, he
was just trying to locate the DR, and he didn't know which of the three
it was. I think only later did he come to realize the importance of
the other two in the Last Battle.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Rajiv Mote
There was me, that is SPOILER SPACE and my three SPOILER SPACE, that is
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE and SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE being
really SPOILER SPACE, and we all sat about the SPOILER SPACE making up
our SPOILER SPACE what to do with the SPOILER SPACE, a flip dark chill
SPOILER SPACE, SPOILER SPACE but SPOILER SPACE.
.
.
.
Moridin is getting angry. Even moreso than when he found out Rand was
going to cleanse saidin. He's losing his cool and yelling at the other
1. Hands off Rand -- he belongs to Moridin
2. Kill Mat and Perrin -- kill, kill kill
The order to leave Rand alone is nothing new. But I wonder if it has
taken on an added urgency to Moridin, now that he and Rand have a
Voldemort-Harry relationship. What kind of consequences does their
connection have for Moridin?
Knowing the "third man" is Moridin himself casts a strange light on
what we've seen. Lews Therin, the guy who froths at the mouth whenever
an Asha'man comes into the room, listens to Moridin's thoughts and even
nods in agreement. He even acknowledges a sort of kinship with him,
including him when saying "we are all destroyers." Ishamael has always
claimed that there have been turnings of the Wheel where the Dragon
became the Shadow's champion (a role Moridin now seems to fill), and
one of the Forsaken has said that Ishamael had divined secrets in the
fact that the Dragon was the reincarnation of a specific soul,
according to prophecy. And from Verin's scrap of writing (The Dragon
Reborn), we know that Ba'alzamon's name hid a name within another name
-- the truth of which burns and sears, a lie being our only shield. Is
there some deep, wacky, metaphysical connection between Rand's and
Moridin's souls?
And the consequences of Moridin's first order... Did this alter the
plans of the other Forsaken? Semirhage's plan was in place before
Moridin's orders, and its subsequent execution seemed to fail --
abruptly and spectacularly. I have little doubt that Semirhage meant
to be captured, but was this by her own design, or in response to
Moridin's orders?
As for the order to kill Mat and Perrin, none of the other Forsaken
seem to think it an urgent goal. What does Moridin know about the
importance of Mat and Perrin? He has been aware of the role of the man
with the ruby dagger and the Wolfbrother ever since The Eye of the
World -- why has he kept the rest of the Forsaken in the dark? And
why, when he showed the Mat's and Perrin's faces to a hall full of
Darkfriends (prologue to The Great Hunt), did he not do the same for
the Forsaken?
Offhand, I can only think of one attempt on either Mat's or Perrin's
life in Knife of Dreams: when Aram turned on Perrin. Could he have
been acting on the filtered-down order from Moridin? Supposedly, he
acted on persuasion by the Prophet, and there's no reason to doubt it.
There was an unaccounted-for Tinker at the Darkfriend Social in TGH,
but I'm more inclined to think Aram was one of those types easily
swayed by a violent madman. And unless Masema can somehow fool
Perrin's wolf-nose, Masema IS genuinely mad, not just a crafty
Darkfriend who knows how to influence mobs and fools. If he's both mad
AND a crafty Darkfriend, who's pulling his strings?

TGS, IIRC: Masima says that a shining man in the sky ordered him to kill
Perrin. Was said man a Forsaken?