Post by Rich RiusPost by J.HambyPost by George Francis...
<snip>
...
Post by J.HambyIn fact every reference to ter'angreal
gone awry leads to impairment at the least if not complete removal
of the ability to channel.
Whoa,
I'm sure this is not true. For instance, I explicitly remember something
being said about an AS (Elayne IIRC) who was testing a ter'angreal that was
described as 'a foot long ebony rod' or somesuch and the strong implication
was that during the testing the AS lost conscious control and used the TA
like a dildo. I may be reading too much between the lines but the point is
that she wasn't stilled, and I'm sure this isn't the only exception to your
statement.
Now I have to find that reference - if I can I'll post it here.
--
Except that Elayne was testing an individual ter'angreal
and another *angreal did not interfere with it as was the case
with Lanfear/Moiraine/doorway, Martine Janata possibly and
the reference given by Sheriam about the headaches following
the meltdown. The only cross ter'angreal reference that did not
impose a channeling limitation of some sort, was Egwene's testing.
However stress on the system was quite evident. And had Siuan not
been so determined that Egwene would come out and doubled
up on the ter'angreal, Egwene would have been lost.
Your original reference was not merely to cross-Power Object
interference. Even if it had been, after Eg came out of the
ter'angreal, Alanna said that the only time she had experienced
resonance like that was when two ter'angreal *with similar purposes*
had been used in close proximity. Even then I don't recall a
reference to AS being stilled.
My orginal reference was ter'angreal going
awry; and the known specifices were interference. Martine
is not sure and Jarna's death might have been Ishamael
tricking her or triggering a cross interference.
Regardless my point in the response, which was inexplicably snipped,
was underscoring that Elayne's adventure with the ter'angreal
was not really an *angreal going awry -- it is quite likely
that Elayne got the ter'angreal to do exactly what it was intended
for. The ter'angreal did not go awry -- Elayne did.
Post by Rich RiusRegardless, Occam's razor does not lead to your result. If you look
at what RJ said, the last bit of text quoted above makes the most
sense if it continues by adding that if the AS and Warder are too far
apart, etc., then releasing the Bond will have much the same effect on
the Warder as the AS dying (and perhaps a similar effect on the AS).
It would be easier if the quoted text was still in the post.
"Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who
is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die
will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from
her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a
little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically
apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on
him."
And no your conclusion is hardly the most sense, imo. The weird
wording actually suggests a different method than a different result.
And the result is a release from the bond. It is not a release if the
Warder suffers the exact same results as if the AS died without doing
anything. And why would a dying AS bother with doing something that
has no change in the end result? Sorry, but in no way is your take on
the weird wording make the msot sense. And even if it did, this
really has little bearing on matter at hand. Because it implies that
Moiraine did something in that instant to release the bond. There is
nothing to suggest this in any way at all.
Post by Rich RiusShe may know from the Rings of Rhuidean that if she does not release
the bond at that point something BAD will happen. That is not
far-fetched at all considering the degree of recollection she has
concerning what will happen at the docks (we know this from her letter
to Rand) and her fascination with the Doorway from Rhuidean forward.
And herein lies the greater flaw in your reasoning about Moiraine
releasing the bond. It is established in TGH, that Moiraine already
placed a second type of bond that would pass Lan to Myrelle. It would
be triggered by her death (though note that stilling and being burnt
out have the same result on the bond). She set this in motion prior
to TGH. The mechanism in place when she last saw Myrelle. There is
nothing to suggest that this was channged in any way since Rhuidean.
And everything to suggest that what she planned long before she even
had an inkling she would die at Cairhien was carried out.
Post by Rich RiusThis explanation is simpler than the one you offer. Yours requires
the premise that an angreal *can* interfere with a
ter'angreal--something heretofore unestablished.
No my premise is much simpler than yours or what you suggest is mine.
My premise is that Moiraine was burnt out. Period. The ter'angreal
interference is merely the way I think is quite logical for her
to have been burnt out.
Post by Rich RiusIn fact, Rand's use
of the angreal when using a Portal Stone--surely a
ter'angreal--suggests the opposite.
Except that a Portal Stone is not a ter'angreal. And more importantly,
there is no evidence that Rand ever used the angreal while walking
through
the doorway. And evidence that strongly implies he did not as per his
thoughts about the angreal in TSR right before using the Portal Stone
to Rhuidean. So no. Rand's use in no way
suggests the opposite.
Post by Rich RiusWhile the Stone and the Doorway
are different, they both do similar things: transport the user to
some other world. As far as we know, even dissimilar ter'angreal
don't interfere with one another. As examples we have the Oath Rod
and the shawl test ter'angreal (both present when the latter is used
for Moiraine and Siuan in "New Spring"), the Aiel History Ter'angreal
and the myriad other ter'angreal in Rhuidean, and the run of El's
ter'angreal testing (the ter'angreal seem to be close to one another).
There was never any argument made, at least by myelf, that suggested
mere proximity of two inactive ter'angreal would cause such an
interference.
Or that one being used and one being near _always_ resulted in such
detrimental effects. In fact a long time ago, I put forth that teh
only reason Elayne was able to come back during her testing was
the ring was merely near the archway. And that the ring had
an affect on the testing ter'angreal because it was one that did not
need a channeler to be used. Another poster suggested that Sheriam
actually touched the ter'angreal while Egwene was inside and that was
what caused the interference. That is not really pertinant as we
know there was interference regardless of what caused it.
But all the above that you list are also neither here nor there
as each and every one has to do with ter'angreal that either are
all inactive or only one is active via channeling.
Post by Rich RiusAnother theory presented above is that the door burning severed the
bond. Something to keep in mind is Rand's first trip by Portal Stone
in TGH. Egwene had a dream where se saw a woman standing over him,
then he disappeared. I think Fain lost track of Rand for the whole
time he was in the other world. To him, Rand suddenly reappears in
the mountains to the east of him shortly before Rand and Loial take
the Horn and Shadar Mandarb. I think one or more of the wondergirls
may have had a similar sense that he wasn't around either then or when
he makes the "flicker" trip with Verin.
First, the fact that Tomas is still alive and well, suggests that
the bond in no way was severed or "blank" in this manner. Second,
if such an analogy could be drawn between the two, it only strengthens
the argument against the doorway melting snapping the bond (see next).
Third, the aspect of blurring being a main reason why Tomas might not
have
felt the absence only really underlines the fact that traveling via
Portal stone did not truncate or damage the cond in any way.
Post by Rich RiusOf course this type of connection is different from Fain's hound
whatsit and what was probably a ta'veren effect on the girls, but it
may be similar enough that for the Moir-Lan bond to remain intact, it
needed to be able to go through the Doorway as though it were a rope
tied at either end to their waists. When the door collapsed, the rope
broke.
Except as already mentioned, Verin being in the portal void of
alternate
timelines did nothing to damage her bond with Tomas. So if the
doorway
closing so permanently is like the Portal stone trip Verin took
with Rand, then it did not destroy the bond Moiraine had with Lan.
Post by Rich RiusAs a general matter, I don't like the idea that Moiraine was stilled.
There is no good plot-related reason for it now. Stilling can be
Healed, so why bother? OK, because RJ can waste a whole book (or two)
getting her to the Healer, nevermind.
I think it is only fair to point out that in no way do I, or have I
indicated that I think Moiraine is stilled. You seem to be confused
between
stilling and being burnt out.
My conclusion is still a result of the Occam's Razor approach as it
were.
A.there are only three known causes to damage the Warder bond in a way
that kills or causes the Warder to be suicidal: stilling of the AS,
the AS being killed or the AS being burnt out
B.stilling requires imposition on the channeler's ability by an
outside force (i.e. other channeler[s])
C.Lanfear had her angreal "clawed" away while channeling through it;
such a shock added to the fact that Moiraine herself held the source
implies Moiraine actually held the One Power advantage going through
the doorway.¹ Therefore Moiraine was not stilled by Lanfear, the only
real immediate force capable of such an imposition.²
D.there is plenty of evidence that Moiraine is not dead, therefore
Moiraine's death is not responsible for the bond with Lan breaking.
E.Being burnt out is something that misuse (and possible
cross-interference) of an active *angreal³ can lead to. Cross
interference is known to result in impairment of the channeling
ability. Cross interference is known to reduce the active *angreal to
slag. Being burnt out does lead to the damaging of the bond in the
manner that Lan experiences. Teh doorway melted -- its destruction
was something that was triggered adn continued on its own -- Rand
could not stop it. Lan's bond with Moiraine was broken. Moiraine was
burnt out.
And there is nothing to suggest that being burnt out can be Healed
like stilling can. In fact, I strongly suspect that being burnt out
cannot be Healed.
¹While I think that *angreal backlash was the reason for Moiraine
being burnt out, I think it is just as plausible that backlash was a
result of Moiraine deliberately destroying the doorway ter'angreal as
opposed to it just happening with a 'loaded' angreal or two passing
through the gateway. It is most telling that Moiraine actually
embraces the OP right before she leaps on Lanfear. There must be a
reason she does this as it diminishes the one slight chance she has --
the risk of detection is increased dramatically by drawing the Op no
matter how slight -- and the OP serves no purose as we see when
Moiraine knocks Lanfear into the gateway. That is strictly a physical
attack. But when Moiraine 'claws' away the angreal, it is very likely
she held onto it to draw on the OP to destroy the gateway. Which
still is a form of cross-disruption of two active *angreal, I guess.
²It is not known whether Lanfear is that much stronger than Moiraine
that she could actually still her (sans angreal). Add to that the
fact that Moiraine now holds said angreal as well as her own angreal
and odds are Lanfear is fighting for her life in the split second they
are together -- after that the two are most likely not in visible
proximity once the translation into finnland is complete. Even if the
finn stilled Moiraine somehow, the result on the bond is immediate
when the gate starts to go.
³Martine and Jarna both might have been results of *angreal
interference. And it is interesting that Egwene's ring was a
ter'angreal that did no require channeling (and way back pre-ACOS I
put forth that had Egwene worn the ring into the testing ter'angreal
she would not have come back; interesting bit in response to that was
someone's theory that Sheriam did go through Egwene's clothing while
she was being tested and that triggered the interference with the
other ter'angreal). So *angreal interference still applies there as
well.
---
JSH