couple'a questions...

[Benjamin]

OK, so I just got on this Groups action...maybe this question I have
has been discussed a bazillion times, but I don't know the answer.

I'm re-reading the series to prepare for book 11 and I saw something
way back when Siuan was deposed. Remember when Elaida walked in on her
with the other sisters, they exchange pleasentries, and then go out to
the sitting room where Siuan sees her warder dead? How come she didn't
have fore-warning to that situation with Elaida by his death? Like it
was a big suprise to her when she saw him. Then *after* her Healing
she mourned for his death. Wierd.

Also, why does RJ make his prolouges so danged long?! Why not just do
chapters 1 thought 6 or something...?

Thanks!

-Benjamin

[Davian]

Post by Benjamin
OK, so I just got on this Groups action...maybe this question I have
has been discussed a bazillion times, but I don't know the answer.
I'm re-reading the series to prepare for book 11 and I saw something
way back when Siuan was deposed. Remember when Elaida walked in on her
with the other sisters, they exchange pleasentries, and then go out to
the sitting room where Siuan sees her warder dead? How come she didn't
have fore-warning to that situation with Elaida by his death? Like it
was a big suprise to her when she saw him. Then *after* her Healing
she mourned for his death. Wierd.

Jordan's explanation seems to be that she was too distracted to notice. Or
another rationalization that has been proposed is that since Siuan was
shielded, whatever it is in the bonding that makes here feel her warder was
blocked.

There are actually bigger problems with that scene though. Siuan says
straight out to Elaidia "There has never been a rebellion inside the Tower."
Yet when she is telling the "Secret histories" to Egwene, one of the things
she says is that there has been six rebellions in Tower history. Even if
Siuan wasn't allowed to tell about those, the first oath should have still
prevented her from saying there was never a rebellion.

(Yes, yes, I know. Some have tried to rationalize it saying perhaps all the
other rebellions were groups not *inside* the actual Tower. Siuan was
twisting words based on location. I still think it's a weak explanation.)

Post by Benjamin
Also, why does RJ make his prolouges so danged long?! Why not just do
chapters 1 thought 6 or something...?

Jordan has an agreement with a publisher to sell the prologues in advance of
the book coming out, in e-book form, for $5 each. Nobody would pay that if
it was just a normal prologue like other authors do, 7 pages long or so. So
Jordan makes the first six chapters into his "prologue" to sell it.

And yes, I still think it's one of the more disgusting things Jordan has done.

[Daniel Holm]

Post by Davian

Post by Benjamin
OK, so I just got on this Groups action...maybe this question I have
has been discussed a bazillion times, but I don't know the answer.
I'm re-reading the series to prepare for book 11 and I saw something
way back when Siuan was deposed. Remember when Elaida walked in on her
with the other sisters, they exchange pleasentries, and then go out to
the sitting room where Siuan sees her warder dead? How come she didn't
have fore-warning to that situation with Elaida by his death? Like it
was a big suprise to her when she saw him. Then *after* her Healing
she mourned for his death. Wierd.

Jordan's explanation seems to be that she was too distracted to notice. Or
another rationalization that has been proposed is that since Siuan was
shielded, whatever it is in the bonding that makes here feel her warder was
blocked.

Actually, recently he has been saying that the Warder--Alric?--was
stabbed mere seconds before Siuan finds him, so he was dying, but not
quite dead at that moment.

Of course, it's much harder to explain why Siuan doesn't mourn him
immediately like other Aes Sedai do when they lose their Warders, but
hey, who's counting?

--Daniel Holm

[k***@hotmail.com]

snip

Of course, it's much harder to explain why Siuan doesn't mourn him
immediately like other Aes Sedai do when they lose their Warders, but
hey, who's counting?


--Daniel Holm

I'm counting.

just kidding.

Mike

[j porter]

Post by Daniel Holm
snip
Of course, it's much harder to explain why Siuan doesn't mourn him
immediately like other Aes Sedai do when they lose their Warders, but
hey, who's counting?
--Daniel Holm
I'm counting.
just kidding.
Mike

since the three girls feel what Rand does to some extent, it is a pretty far
stretch that Siuan didnt feel *anything* from Alric. Of course, the lie
about the rebellions is also bad, too.

[BenM]

j porter wrote:
<snip> Of course, the lie

Post by j porter
about the rebellions is also bad, too.

Yeah, we know Siuan isn't Black, so RJ just screwed that one up.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by j porter

Post by Daniel Holm
snip
Of course, it's much harder to explain why Siuan doesn't mourn him
immediately like other Aes Sedai do when they lose their Warders, but
hey, who's counting?
--Daniel Holm
I'm counting.
just kidding.
Mike

since the three girls feel what Rand does to some extent, it is a pretty far
stretch that Siuan didnt feel *anything* from Alric. Of course, the lie
about the rebellions is also bad, too.

Both of these are a consequence of her stilling.

-Bill E. Brooks

[David Chapman]

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by j porter
since the three girls feel what Rand does to some extent, it is a pretty
far stretch that Siuan didnt feel *anything* from Alric. Of course, the
lie about the rebellions is also bad, too.

Both of these are a consequence of her stilling.

Try reading the books, Bill. Alric is killed and Siuan lies about the
rebellions *before* she was stilled.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by j porter
since the three girls feel what Rand does to some extent, it is a pretty
far stretch that Siuan didnt feel *anything* from Alric. Of course, the
lie about the rebellions is also bad, too.

Both of these are a consequence of her stilling.

Try reading the books, Bill. Alric is killed and Siuan lies about the
rebellions *before* she was stilled.

Ok. I reread, and I see your point. I can think of two possibilities
other than RJ just screwed up. One, shielding might have temporarily
freed her from the Three Oaths and the reaction to her Warder's
death. Or two, perhaps when she was shielded, she was stilled,
although there should have been some mention of tearing if that was
the case.

I noticed when I reread that Joline helped depose Siuan. What was
her beef with Elaida's predecessor?

-Bill E. Brooks

[David Chapman]

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by David Chapman
Try reading the books, Bill. Alric is killed and Siuan lies about the
rebellions *before* she was stilled.

Ok. I reread, and I see your point. I can think of two possibilities
other than RJ just screwed up. One, shielding might have temporarily
freed her from the Three Oaths and the reaction to her Warder's
death.

Shielding would have blocked the bond, I think, but it wouldn't have freed
her from the Oaths and I doubt Siuan was shielded before the others entered
the room.

I think the simplest explanation is that Alric wasn't stabbed before the
deposin' posse entered. By the time he was stabbed, Siuan had already been
shielded and so couldn't sense him through the bond. This fits the
available evidence; his body is found near the stairs, further away from the
Amyrlin's study than Leane was, which suggests he was coming to the rescue
rather than on guard in the antechamber.

(Incidentally, this theory would imply that whoever stabbed Alric is Black
Ajah. While he probably wasn't killed with the Power, so no oath was
broken, he could have been held more easily than Leane was. That suggests
he was killed for reasons other than to get him out of the way.)

If there are still signings to go, maybe someone could ask who knifed Alric
and why he was killed instead of being held like Leane.

[Erik Wikström]

Post by David Chapman
(Incidentally, this theory would imply that whoever stabbed Alric is Black
Ajah. While he probably wasn't killed with the Power, so no oath was
broken, he could have been held more easily than Leane was. That suggests
he was killed for reasons other than to get him out of the way.)
If there are still signings to go, maybe someone could ask who knifed Alric
and why he was killed instead of being held like Leane.

I've always assumed that he was killed by some other warder, were there
any other present? (Don't have my books here right now).

--
Erik Wikström

[Davian]

Post by Erik Wikström

Post by David Chapman
(Incidentally, this theory would imply that whoever stabbed Alric is Black
Ajah. While he probably wasn't killed with the Power, so no oath was
broken, he could have been held more easily than Leane was. That suggests
he was killed for reasons other than to get him out of the way.)
If there are still signings to go, maybe someone could ask who knifed Alric
and why he was killed instead of being held like Leane.

I've always assumed that he was killed by some other warder, were there
any other present? (Don't have my books here right now).

It's possible some were there, but none were mentioned, either by name or
reference.

He was killed by a dagger to the back though. A warder would be more likely
to use a sword. It's not impossible that the theoretical warder decided on a
sneak attack by dagger.... but not very in character for most of them.

[Eyedol]

Post by David Chapman
Shielding would have blocked the bond, I think, but it wouldn't have freed
her from the Oaths and I doubt Siuan was shielded before the others entered
the room.

Contains refrence to events in Knife of Dreams:

If all it takes to sever sensations shared between warder and aes sedai
is to shield them then no sister would be able to sense their warder
while on a stedding or in Far Madding, where they cannot access the
source. However, we know that Rand and Min's bond still functions
there and I recall that Verin has her warder with her and was acting as
if she were aware of his state while Rand and company were in Far
Madding. Also, if shielding cuts off the bond then how, in KoD, was
Brigitte able to leed the rescue party to find Elayne? The only
explination that makes any sense to me is that Siuan was shielding
herself from her warder while she was working. But it also seems to me
that after spending years with a person in your head it can't be that
much of a distraction... so why bother?

[Erik Wikström]

Post by Eyedol

Post by David Chapman
Shielding would have blocked the bond, I think, but it wouldn't have freed
her from the Oaths and I doubt Siuan was shielded before the others entered
the room.

If all it takes to sever sensations shared between warder and aes sedai
is to shield them then no sister would be able to sense their warder
while on a stedding or in Far Madding, where they cannot access the
source. However, we know that Rand and Min's bond still functions
there and I recall that Verin has her warder with her and was acting as
if she were aware of his state while Rand and company were in Far
Madding. Also, if shielding cuts off the bond then how, in KoD, was
Brigitte able to leed the rescue party to find Elayne? The only
explination that makes any sense to me is that Siuan was shielding
herself from her warder while she was working. But it also seems to me
that after spending years with a person in your head it can't be that
much of a distraction... so why bother?

Is being in a stedding or Far Madding the same as being shielded, or
more concretely: One can use a well in (at least) Far Madding but can
one do so while being shielded? That would be interesting.

--
Erik Wikström

[David Chapman]

Post by Erik Wikström
Is being in a stedding or Far Madding the same as being shielded, or
more concretely: One can use a well in (at least) Far Madding but can
one do so while being shielded? That would be interesting.

I believe that RJ has said you *cannot* use a Well if you're cut off from
the Source. This is odd, as it would seem that there's no practical purpose
for a Well *other* than to allow you to draw on the Power when otherwise you
could not.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Daniel Holm
snip
Of course, it's much harder to explain why Siuan doesn't mourn him
immediately like other Aes Sedai do when they lose their Warders, but
hey, who's counting?

The pain of the broken Warder Bond was buried by stilling.

[Davian]

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by Davian
Jordan's explanation seems to be that she was too distracted to notice.

Or

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by Davian
another rationalization that has been proposed is that since Siuan was
shielded, whatever it is in the bonding that makes here feel her warder was
blocked.

Actually, recently he has been saying that the Warder--Alric?--was
stabbed mere seconds before Siuan finds him, so he was dying, but not
quite dead at that moment.

Hmmm... I hadn't heard that. I guess that's better.

Post by Daniel Holm
Of course, it's much harder to explain why Siuan doesn't mourn him
immediately like other Aes Sedai do when they lose their Warders, but
hey, who's counting?

Jordan actually did explain that in the books. That the feeling is part of
the Power connection. She didn't feel it during the fall of the Tower
because she was tortured all day and then stilled the next day, and she did
feel it once she got restored.

Not a great explanation, but it works if you accept his rules for it.

[Benjamin]

I still don't get it...when RJ speaks about Rand or Alanna and the bond
they have you'd think there's instant physical/emotional link. And so
even with all the jazz about her being busy and whatnot, it seems
logical that she would sense so great a suprise through the bond, or
the first pains or something!

-Benjamin

Post by Davian

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by Davian
Jordan's explanation seems to be that she was too distracted to notice.

Or

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by Davian
another rationalization that has been proposed is that since Siuan was
shielded, whatever it is in the bonding that makes here feel her warder

was

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by Davian
blocked.

Actually, recently he has been saying that the Warder--Alric?--was
stabbed mere seconds before Siuan finds him, so he was dying, but not
quite dead at that moment.

Hmmm... I hadn't heard that. I guess that's better.

Post by Daniel Holm
Of course, it's much harder to explain why Siuan doesn't mourn him
immediately like other Aes Sedai do when they lose their Warders, but
hey, who's counting?

Jordan actually did explain that in the books. That the feeling is part of
the Power connection. She didn't feel it during the fall of the Tower
because she was tortured all day and then stilled the next day, and she did
feel it once she got restored.
Not a great explanation, but it works if you accept his rules for it.
--
Jeff
Davian / Dearic

[Sarah Coit]

Post by Benjamin
I still don't get it...when RJ speaks about Rand or Alanna and the bond
they have you'd think there's instant physical/emotional link. And so
even with all the jazz about her being busy and whatnot, it seems
logical that she would sense so great a suprise through the bond, or
the first pains or something!

An Aes Sedai can ward off her Warder's feelings, so that she
isn't nearly as aware of them. Alanna seems disinclined to
do this, having just had a Warder die, but it's conceivable
that Siuan didn't want the distraction of feeling her Warder,
especially when she believed them both to be safe from physical
danger.

There are problems with the scene, but this bit is possible.

-Sarah

[Ash]

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by Davian

Post by Benjamin
OK, so I just got on this Groups action...maybe this question I have
has been discussed a bazillion times, but I don't know the answer.
I'm re-reading the series to prepare for book 11 and I saw something
way back when Siuan was deposed. Remember when Elaida walked in on her
with the other sisters, they exchange pleasentries, and then go out to
the sitting room where Siuan sees her warder dead? How come she didn't
have fore-warning to that situation with Elaida by his death? Like it
was a big suprise to her when she saw him. Then *after* her Healing
she mourned for his death. Wierd.

Jordan's explanation seems to be that she was too distracted to notice. Or
another rationalization that has been proposed is that since Siuan was
shielded, whatever it is in the bonding that makes here feel her warder was
blocked.

Actually, recently he has been saying that the Warder--Alric?--was
stabbed mere seconds before Siuan finds him, so he was dying, but not
quite dead at that moment.

And why he wasn't healed so he could be questioned

[Sarah Coit]

Post by Ash

Post by Daniel Holm
Actually, recently he has been saying that the Warder--Alric?--was
stabbed mere seconds before Siuan finds him, so he was dying, but not
quite dead at that moment.

And why he wasn't healed so he could be questioned

At a guess, I'd say the Reds were running the show and didn't
expect a mere man to know anything.

-Sarah

[Christer Jacobsson]

Post by Sarah Coit

Post by Ash

Post by Daniel Holm
Actually, recently he has been saying that the Warder--Alric?--was
stabbed mere seconds before Siuan finds him, so he was dying, but not
quite dead at that moment.

And why he wasn't healed so he could be questioned

At a guess, I'd say the Reds were running the show and didn't
expect a mere man to know anything.

And Death can't be Healed, that's common knowledge in the Tower!

OTOH, don't be surprised if Nyn Heals Rand of Death - she's the one
who have stated time and again that "Death CAN'T be Healed!"

So I bet my 5x10**(-1) SEK on Nyn Healing Rand of Death.

[Benjamin]

Actually, in regard to the Oath Rod, who actually stabbed him?! Damned
Reds.

[Karan Juneja]

(inserting the old text..)

Post by Benjamin

Post by Daniel Holm
Actually, recently he has been saying that the Warder--Alric?--was
stabbed mere seconds before Siuan finds him, so he was dying, but not
quite dead at that moment.

Actually, in regard to the Oath Rod, who actually stabbed him?! Damned
Reds.

Initially I was thinking "Another Warder?" but the Reds don't have
warders do they... Was it only Reds that came into the room?

[Sarah Coit]

Post by Karan Juneja

Post by Benjamin
Actually, in regard to the Oath Rod, who actually stabbed him?! Damned
Reds.

Initially I was thinking "Another Warder?" but the Reds don't have
warders do they... Was it only Reds that came into the room?

For the record, most were Red, but all Ajahs except the Blue were
represented. Alviarin, Joline, Danelle, and Shemerin were all named
as being there. No Warders are mentioned as being present.

[Davian]

"Benjamin" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

*stabbing Alric, Siuan's warder during the revolt in the Tower*

Post by Benjamin
Actually, in regard to the Oath Rod, who actually stabbed him?! Damned
Reds.

Please leave some context in your replies, so I can figure out what you're
talking about. If Karan hadn't responded and lined it up, I wouldn't be
posting this. Anyways...

What do you mean in reguard to the Oath Rod? The third oath doesn't prevent
Aes Sedai from killing, only from using the power to do so. Stabbing a
warder in the back would be easy for any of them. Even easier if one of them
was holding him with the power while the other stabbed.

[j porter]

Post by Davian
*stabbing Alric, Siuan's warder during the revolt in the Tower*

Post by Benjamin
Actually, in regard to the Oath Rod, who actually stabbed him?! Damned
Reds.

Please leave some context in your replies, so I can figure out what you're
talking about. If Karan hadn't responded and lined it up, I wouldn't be
posting this. Anyways...
What do you mean in reguard to the Oath Rod? The third oath doesn't prevent
Aes Sedai from killing, only from using the power to do so. Stabbing a
warder in the back would be easy for any of them. Even easier if one of them
was holding him with the power while the other stabbed.
--
Jeff
Davian / Dearic

The death of Alric always seemed like sloppy work to me. The only thing it
could be called is murder, as he wouldnt have known he was about to be
attacked, and the sisters didnt even try to hold him with air(except so he
could be stabbed.) I think its funny that any of the sisters would be ok
with killing an untried man, as the very act is evil. I know that Alric was
in Jordans way in regards to the Siuan?Gareth arc, but it was an extremely
sloppy way to get him out of the picture. 3 Oaths aside, casually murdering
a Gaidin seems a bit off.

[Davian]

Post by j porter
The death of Alric always seemed like sloppy work to me. The only thing it
could be called is murder, as he wouldnt have known he was about to be
attacked, and the sisters didnt even try to hold him with air(except so he
could be stabbed.) I think its funny that any of the sisters would be ok
with killing an untried man, as the very act is evil. I know that Alric was
in Jordans way in regards to the Siuan?Gareth arc, but it was an extremely
sloppy way to get him out of the picture. 3 Oaths aside, casually murdering
a Gaidin seems a bit off.

/nod

A better way would probably be to have him die in the fighting to free Siuan.
Or die under Elaida's questioning, which Elaida lies about and says he died in
an escape attempt.

But then, I suppose I'm speaking with 20/40 hindsight...

[D. Todd Caslick]

Post by Davian

Post by j porter
The death of Alric always seemed like sloppy work to me. The only thing it
could be called is murder, as he wouldnt have known he was about to be
attacked, and the sisters didnt even try to hold him with air(except so he
could be stabbed.) I think its funny that any of the sisters would be ok
with killing an untried man, as the very act is evil. I know that Alric was
in Jordans way in regards to the Siuan?Gareth arc, but it was an extremely
sloppy way to get him out of the picture. 3 Oaths aside, casually murdering
a Gaidin seems a bit off.

/nod
A better way would probably be to have him die in the fighting to free Siuan.
Or die under Elaida's questioning, which Elaida lies about and says he died in
an escape attempt.
But then, I suppose I'm speaking with 20/40 hindsight...

The whole rebellion/deposing of Siuan in the Tower has a bad feel to it
if you pay close attention to the details. Aes Sedai killing Aes Sedai
seems to be impossible due to the Oaths, but it happens. Warders killed
by students to turn the tide...a few years of training beats a
life-time of mastering the sword? Yeah, there are plenty of holes if
you look at the logic of those scenes.



Todd

[Erik Wikström]

Post by D. Todd Caslick

Post by Davian

Post by j porter
The death of Alric always seemed like sloppy work to me. The only thing it
could be called is murder, as he wouldnt have known he was about to be
attacked, and the sisters didnt even try to hold him with air(except so he
could be stabbed.) I think its funny that any of the sisters would be ok
with killing an untried man, as the very act is evil. I know that Alric was
in Jordans way in regards to the Siuan?Gareth arc, but it was an extremely
sloppy way to get him out of the picture. 3 Oaths aside, casually murdering
a Gaidin seems a bit off.

/nod
A better way would probably be to have him die in the fighting to free Siuan.
Or die under Elaida's questioning, which Elaida lies about and says he died in
an escape attempt.
But then, I suppose I'm speaking with 20/40 hindsight...

The whole rebellion/deposing of Siuan in the Tower has a bad feel to it
if you pay close attention to the details. Aes Sedai killing Aes Sedai
seems to be impossible due to the Oaths, but it happens. Warders killed
by students to turn the tide...a few years of training beats a
life-time of mastering the sword? Yeah, there are plenty of holes if
you look at the logic of those scenes.

If the warder of one AS attacks a second AS the second AS can use the
power to defend herself against the warder. The first can then use the
power against the second to defend her warder, which would then open upp
the possibility for the second to user the power on the first. I don't
have my books with me but I think this is possible under the oaths.

--
Erik Wikström

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Benjamin
Actually, in regard to the Oath Rod, who actually stabbed him?! Damned
Reds.

The Oath Rod does not prohibit physical stabbing.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Davian

Post by Benjamin
OK, so I just got on this Groups action...maybe this question I have
has been discussed a bazillion times, but I don't know the answer.
I'm re-reading the series to prepare for book 11 and I saw something
way back when Siuan was deposed. Remember when Elaida walked in on her
with the other sisters, they exchange pleasentries, and then go out to
the sitting room where Siuan sees her warder dead? How come she didn't
have fore-warning to that situation with Elaida by his death? Like it
was a big suprise to her when she saw him. Then *after* her Healing
she mourned for his death. Wierd.

Jordan's explanation seems to be that she was too distracted to notice. Or
another rationalization that has been proposed is that since Siuan was
shielded, whatever it is in the bonding that makes here feel her warder was
blocked.
There are actually bigger problems with that scene though. Siuan says
straight out to Elaidia "There has never been a rebellion inside the Tower."
Yet when she is telling the "Secret histories" to Egwene, one of the things
she says is that there has been six rebellions in Tower history. Even if
Siuan wasn't allowed to tell about those, the first oath should have still
prevented her from saying there was never a rebellion.

I have pointed that out too, in a thread titled "AMYRLIN SEAT BREAKS FIRST OATH!".