KoD / Semi / Spoilers

[zheemnookin]

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Enh, talk about a horrendously anti-climactic battle scene. Worse, it
was not at all remotely "believable" (as these things go). Semi knew
full well that Rand would be at the meeting along with at least 5 or 6
others, and she knew damn well that the other 5 or 6 would be
channelers. Hell, we're reminded -- AGAIN! -- that she and Dem like to
chit-chat, and there are furiously strong hints that Dem has very
strong ties to the Black Tower -- so Semi must have known that Rand's
Ashaman weren't completely and utterly negligible.

And she, a Golden Age-r, must know what Novices know: It's pretty damn
hard to shield folks who have already embraced/seized the Source.

Given all that:

What in the HELL was she thinking? How utterly stupid is she? And when
I say "utterly stupid," I mean UTTERLY dimwitted. She thought, what,
that she'd walk out in disguise, and then command her 5 or 6 damane to
shield everyone? The ONLY way that would work is with the extremely
thin possibility that (1) Rand and co. would NOT be filled with the
Power, or that (2) there was some sort of terangreal to prevent the
Good Guys from doing so.

And there was neither!

Hell, we don't even know if the damane are strong. And we're given
strong reason to suspect that they're not even darkfriends, given their
reactions. So Semi didn't even have them come prepared with inverted
shields are anything!

My gosh, what an utterly stupid, stupid plan. Can someone please tell
me anything that will lessen my incredulousness and this whole scene
and somehow remotely redeem Semi? (Who, by the way, managed to throw a
SINGLE FIREBALL at Rand? Egwene managed more when playing around with
the Accepted teacher in the classroom!)

Someone tell me I'm missing something. I don't mind looking like an
idiot who missed something obvious -- well, I do, but I'd rather look
like a careless reader/fan than the alternative: the utter, UTTER
incredible (and I mean that literally: INcredible) dumbing down of the
Forsaken.

Cheers.

[Be'lal]

Post by zheemnookin
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Enh, talk about a horrendously anti-climactic battle scene. Worse, it
was not at all remotely "believable" (as these things go). Semi knew
full well that Rand would be at the meeting along with at least 5 or 6
others, and she knew damn well that the other 5 or 6 would be
channelers. Hell, we're reminded -- AGAIN! -- that she and Dem like to
chit-chat, and there are furiously strong hints that Dem has very
strong ties to the Black Tower -- so Semi must have known that Rand's
Ashaman weren't completely and utterly negligible.
And she, a Golden Age-r, must know what Novices know: It's pretty damn
hard to shield folks who have already embraced/seized the Source.
What in the HELL was she thinking? How utterly stupid is she? And when
I say "utterly stupid," I mean UTTERLY dimwitted. She thought, what,
that she'd walk out in disguise, and then command her 5 or 6 damane to
shield everyone? The ONLY way that would work is with the extremely
thin possibility that (1) Rand and co. would NOT be filled with the
Power, or that (2) there was some sort of terangreal to prevent the
Good Guys from doing so.
And there was neither!
Hell, we don't even know if the damane are strong. And we're given
strong reason to suspect that they're not even darkfriends, given their
reactions. So Semi didn't even have them come prepared with inverted
shields are anything!
My gosh, what an utterly stupid, stupid plan. Can someone please tell
me anything that will lessen my incredulousness and this whole scene
and somehow remotely redeem Semi? (Who, by the way, managed to throw a
SINGLE FIREBALL at Rand? Egwene managed more when playing around with
the Accepted teacher in the classroom!)
Someone tell me I'm missing something. I don't mind looking like an
idiot who missed something obvious -- well, I do, but I'd rather look
like a careless reader/fan than the alternative: the utter, UTTER
incredible (and I mean that literally: INcredible) dumbing down of the
Forsaken.
Cheers.

My interpretation of the scene: She didn't know Cads has a ter'angreal
that will disrupt existing weaves (remember, Cyndane was surprised that
Alivia had such a thing at the end of WH--implication is they're fairly
rare, or even unknown in the AOL). Her actual plan is to fake being
Tuon long enough to get Rand's guard down and then spring the trap with
the a'dam in some way (forkroot has been discussed). Since this has
been her and Tuon's plan at least since WH (by implicaton from her
conversation with Tuon in WH "What a Veil Hides"), she's trying to go
forward despite the absence of Tuon, so she may be improvising a bit.
However, the sul'dam don't have to be DFs to be expecting to capture
some men and women who can channel, especially if Tuon had briefed them
on the plan before she took off with Mat. And Rand's party's holding
of the Power doesn't matter if they either get drugged with forkroot or
if the collar gets slipped on somehow when the channeler isn't
expecting it. In fact, if Semi collars Rand herself, the rest of his
party is helpless since (presumably) anything that happens to her
happens to him, and she can use his channeling ability to fight them.
Since the sul'dam think she's Tuon, she can wear the bracelet without
question (not so when she seems to be Anath, one reason to fake being
Tuon despite the risks). And another scene in KoD establishes that
sul'dam can wear multiple bracelets at once, so her six sul'dam and
herself should be more than enough to capture everyone under her
original plan [Query: We know that one woman can wear multiple
bracelets, but what happens if more than one collar is put on a woman?]

In any event, she had no reason to expect the whole thing to blow up in
her face from the beginning due to the piercing of her reversed
Illusion. I assume that any inverted/reversed shields or traps she may
have prepared were also disrupted by Cads' ter'angreal, meaning she had
to channel on the spot while Cads and Ny were trying to shield her.
Under the circumstances, it's not surprising the best she could do was
get off one small fireball while fighting two shields (Moggy couldn't
do ANYTHING else while fighting off Ny's attempts to shield her in
TSR), and order the sul'dam to try to take Rand's party, despite the
long odds of success.

I don't expect either side particularly wanted it to come down to a
Power-duel--7 on 7 is pretty risky, all else being equal. However, Ny
and Cads tipped the scales with their *angreal sets, which the Dark
doesn't seem to have completely clued in on yet. Cads keeps her set's
abilities fairly secret, and Ny's was just discovered. I imagine most
of the FS attribute the rout at SL to the presence of Callandor and bad
luck, and any who might have knowledge of the *angreal set (such as
Cyndane) aren't in the habit of telling everything to the other FS
anyway.

[zheemnookin]

Post by Be'lal
Her actual plan is to fake being
Tuon long enough to get Rand's guard down and then spring the trap with
the a'dam in some way (forkroot has been discussed).

Semi resting all her hopes on Rand and co. agreeing to drink some tea
prepared by the very people who detest channelers and may very well try
to kill the Dragon Reborn?

I don't see how Semi thought she could induce Rand and co. to drink
much of anything. And Semi must have considered the possibility that
Ashaman or Aes Sedai knew about forkroot.

Besides, the place was searched and the box with the adams uncovered,
but no one said anything about tea or forkroot.

Post by Be'lal
And Rand's party's holding
of the Power doesn't matter if they either get drugged with forkroot or
if the collar gets slipped on somehow when the channeler isn't
expecting it. In fact, if Semi collars Rand herself, the rest of his
party is helpless since (presumably) anything that happens to her
happens to him, and she can use his channeling ability to fight them.
Since the sul'dam think she's Tuon, she can wear the bracelet without
question (not so when she seems to be Anath, one reason to fake being
Tuon despite the risks).

True, but forkroot wasn't mentioned at all in that scene, and I think
they searched the interior -- hence finding the box. I'd also think
Nynaeve would be on the lookout for forkroot.

I also don't think Semi planned on using the adam to subdue Rand & co.
simply b/c the adam were placed so out of the way. If the adam were
found on her person, then yes, it would be a very risky -- but somewhat
plausible -- plan for Semi to approach Rand disguised as Tuon, and then
collar him -- using him as a weapon against everyone else.

But Semi was bare-handed, and the adam well out of reach. So, without
forkroot, and without adam at hand, the only way Semi could have
anticipated subduing Rand & co. would be by the Power -- either through
active channeling, pre-set traps, or terangreal.

Post by Be'lal
From what we saw, Semi had no terangreal. There may have been many

formidable pre-set traps (inverted, etc.), a la Graendal, but no one
mentioned anything of the sort.

Post by Be'lal
I assume that any inverted/reversed shields or traps she may
have prepared were also disrupted by Cads' ter'angreal, meaning she had
to channel on the spot while Cads and Ny were trying to shield her.

Well, this brings us to Cads' terangreal, and we need to ask what it
does exactly. We do know that it can detect and disrupt active
channeling -- that's why Semi's Mask faltered. But if it affects
active channeling, that means that Nyn could not have been actively
masking her ability to channel, otherwise it would've been disrupted
too, unless Cads can target specific people (which that passage
suggested she could not).

So, Nyn's weaves were probably tied off -- and unaffected by Cads'
terangreal. Which suggests that Semi's pre-prepared tied-off traps
would be unaffected too.

But no one mentioned any traps. I just think Semi didn't have any traps
in place, and it boggles me. Hell, Graendal sets a number of
preprepared traps in her safe, comfortable throne room -- but Semi
can't do the same when meeting the Dragon Reborn and at least 5 or 6
folks who may have spearheaded her and the Forsaken's defeat at SL only
weeks earlier?

Post by Be'lal
Under the circumstances, it's not surprising the best she could do was
get off one small fireball while fighting two shields (Moggy couldn't
do ANYTHING else while fighting off Ny's attempts to shield her in
TSR), and order the sul'dam to try to take Rand's party, despite the
long odds of success.

Good point. I just wish we could have had a female's perspective on the
encounter. Semi facing Nyn and her angreal would be hard-pressed to do
anything.

Post by Be'lal
I don't expect either side particularly wanted it to come down to a
Power-duel--7 on 7 is pretty risky, all else being equal. However, Ny
and Cads tipped the scales with their *angreal sets, which the Dark
doesn't seem to have completely clued in on yet. Cads keeps her set's
abilities fairly secret, and Ny's was just discovered. I imagine most
of the FS attribute the rout at SL to the presence of Callandor and bad
luck, and any who might have knowledge of the *angreal set (such as
Cyndane) aren't in the habit of telling everything to the other FS
anyway.

Yes. It is, however, horrendous planning by a FS who has been
described, almost from the beginning, as meticulous and patient. Her
whole plans relied on maintaining a Mask of Mirrors, and hoping an
extremely wary Rand & co. drink some tea..? No pre-prepared traps? It
strikes me as incredible still.

[Be'lal]

Post by zheemnookin
Besides, the place was searched and the box with the adams uncovered,
but no one said anything about tea or forkroot.

As was already mentioned in other posts, the soldiers searched the
house, not any channeler we know has knowledge of forkroot. In any
event, since we didn't see any of Semi's plan unfold, it seems
semi-pointless to speculate about what it entailed. If Rand's party is
smart, they'll make a point of asking her (ideally first Compelling her
to take an Oath of honesty and obedience), but I've given up expecting
intellegence of Our Heroes.

Post by zheemnookin
I also don't think Semi planned on using the adam to subdue Rand & co.
simply b/c the adam were placed so out of the way. If the adam were
found on her person, then yes, it would be a very risky -- but somewhat
plausible -- plan for Semi to approach Rand disguised as Tuon, and then
collar him -- using him as a weapon against everyone else.
But Semi was bare-handed, and the adam well out of reach. So, without
forkroot, and without adam at hand, the only way Semi could have
anticipated subduing Rand & co. would be by the Power -- either through
active channeling, pre-set traps, or terangreal.

Or bringing him inside for a sit-down conversation, after which who
knows what would have happened. Her plan could depend on any number of
things we haven't seen, and won't since it didn't work. (Two
possibilities: inverted traps in the house that weren't triggered
because no one who could channel went in, or the whole meeting was a
preliminary setup in hopes of getting Rand to let his guard down so the
trap could be sprung on a subsequent visit; the a'dam were there as a
backup/to be put in storage for later/etc.).

Post by zheemnookin
Well, this brings us to Cads' terangreal, and we need to ask what it
does exactly. We do know that it can detect and disrupt active
channeling -- that's why Semi's Mask faltered. But if it affects
active channeling, that means that Nyn could not have been actively
masking her ability to channel, otherwise it would've been disrupted
too, unless Cads can target specific people (which that passage
suggested she could not).

Maybe she can target a direction. In which case anything in Semi's
vicinity would have unraveled. Heck, even channeling a stream of all
five powers toward her ought to do something--that's how Rand took down
Sammy's wards in Illian.

Post by zheemnookin
Yes. It is, however, horrendous planning by a FS who has been
described, almost from the beginning, as meticulous and patient.

Okay, this is one I think people are giving too much credit to.
Remember, in the scene she thinks this about herself, she also lets a
prisoner she's interogating kill himself because she STARTS DAYDREAMING
INSTEAD OF CONCENTRATING ON WHAT SHE'S DOING. RJ has said we shouldn't
trust everything the FS say, even in their POVs. Semi may have a
higher opinion of herself than is actually justified (and she wouldn't
be the only female in the series...).

Bottom line: while Semi may have meant to get captured, it really
doesn't make much sense to me unless the Dark has a plan to have Elza
and any other DFs nearby spring her real fast after she's spread her
rumors about Rand. And that just doesn't seem likely, since Elza
hasn't seemed to be in contact with her controllers since Verin
Compelled her. And the Dark ought to have other ways of sowing
dissension/disturbing rumors amongst Rand's followers, especially given
how infiltrated they are in his forces.

More likely to me is that Semi (arrogantly) assumed her inverted MoM
wouldn't falter and, when it did, fought until she was shielded. Once
captured, she saw nothing to gain by hiding who she was since Rand
obviously knew (especially since she might have hopes of contacting a
BA in Rand's party). As to what happens next, if Team Light is smart,
they'll squeeze her dry. But I suspect it's more likely that the BA
springs her and she ends up mindtrapped for screwing up (and if every
female FS ends up mindtrapped...). Or maybe just killed outright. But
Team Light still doesn't know that balefire is the only way to
permanently off a FS, so Semi could be brought back (which would also
be reptitious, if logical from the DO's perspective).

[Jamie Bowden]

Post by Be'lal

Post by zheemnookin
Besides, the place was searched and the box with the adams uncovered,
but no one said anything about tea or forkroot.

As was already mentioned in other posts, the soldiers searched the
house, not any channeler we know has knowledge of forkroot.

So, Nyneave and Elayne didn't actually get introduced to forkroot back in
LoC?

Jamie Bowden

[namo]

Post by Jamie Bowden

Post by Be'lal

Post by zheemnookin
Besides, the place was searched and the box with the adams uncovered,
but no one said anything about tea or forkroot.

As was already mentioned in other posts, the soldiers searched the
house, not any channeler we know has knowledge of forkroot.

So, Nyneave and Elayne didn't actually get introduced to forkroot back in
LoC?

He meant "no channeler who knows forkroot searched the house".

Forkroot might have been included in Semi's plans, maybe with some traps
attuned to male channelers inside the house ?

Nynaeve's comment indicate that the fight wasn't one-sided. I agree with
Be'lal on this, though I'm not excluding the possibility Semi let herself
be captured.

[Tim Ellingson]

When the soldiers searched the house they found a massacre of people. If
Semi really had intended to have tea, wouldn't she have cleaned up first.
Plus the plain box of a'dams was inside the door and uncovered. That would
have been a big tip off for anyone entering the house.

One other thing, do we know if forkroot works for males?

[Sarah Coit]

Post by Tim Ellingson
When the soldiers searched the house they found a massacre of people. If
Semi really had intended to have tea, wouldn't she have cleaned up first.
Plus the plain box of a'dams was inside the door and uncovered. That would
have been a big tip off for anyone entering the house.

Probably, but not necessarily. I don't recall that the soldiers said
where the bloodstains were, only that they were in several rooms.
Guests wouldn't be allowed to search the house, so if the stains
were in the back bedrooms or some such they would probably
go unnoticed.

Post by Tim Ellingson
One other thing, do we know if forkroot works for males?

Tylee said that she'd heard of several men being caught that way,
although not exactly what it did to them. It makes you wonder
whether the Seanchan already have male channelers as prisoners,
but that's fairly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised to see Asha'man
get traded away as stakes in Rand's deal.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Sarah Coit

Post by Tim Ellingson
When the soldiers searched the house they found a massacre of people. If
Semi really had intended to have tea, wouldn't she have cleaned up first.
Plus the plain box of a'dams was inside the door and uncovered. That would
have been a big tip off for anyone entering the house.

Probably, but not necessarily. I don't recall that the soldiers said
where the bloodstains were, only that they were in several rooms.
Guests wouldn't be allowed to search the house, so if the stains
were in the back bedrooms or some such they would probably
go unnoticed.

Post by Tim Ellingson
One other thing, do we know if forkroot works for males?

Tylee said that she'd heard of several men being caught that way,
although not exactly what it did to them. It makes you wonder
whether the Seanchan already have male channelers as prisoners,
but that's fairly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised to see Asha'man
get traded away as stakes in Rand's deal.

If Rand were to agree to let the Seanchan leash Asha'man, wouldn't the Asha'man
rebel against him? Several books ago, Asha'man did attack Rand after Rand lost
contol of the OP and killed some of the Asha'man.

[Sarah Coit]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Sarah Coit
Tylee said that she'd heard of several men being caught that way,
although not exactly what it did to them. It makes you wonder
whether the Seanchan already have male channelers as prisoners,
but that's fairly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised to see Asha'man
get traded away as stakes in Rand's deal.

If Rand were to agree to let the Seanchan leash Asha'man, wouldn't the Asha'man
rebel against him? Several books ago, Asha'man did attack Rand after Rand lost
contol of the OP and killed some of the Asha'man.

I'm not suggesting that Rand would allow them to be leashed, only that
he would assign them to the Seanchan, the same way he assigned Grady
& Neald to Perrin and assorted Aes Sedai have been traded off to the
Sea Folk.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Asha'man attacking Rand when he lost
control. If you mean in PoD when Rand used Callandor, he was tackled
by Bashere. I don't recall any Asha'man attacking Rand who weren't
Darkfriends.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Sarah Coit

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Sarah Coit
Tylee said that she'd heard of several men being caught that way,
although not exactly what it did to them. It makes you wonder
whether the Seanchan already have male channelers as prisoners,
but that's fairly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised to see Asha'man
get traded away as stakes in Rand's deal.

If Rand were to agree to let the Seanchan leash Asha'man, wouldn't the Asha'man
rebel against him? Several books ago, Asha'man did attack Rand after Rand lost
contol of the OP and killed some of the Asha'man.

I'm not suggesting that Rand would allow them to be leashed, only that
he would assign them to the Seanchan, the same way he assigned Grady
& Neald to Perrin and assorted Aes Sedai have been traded off to the
Sea Folk.
I'm not sure what you mean by the Asha'man attacking Rand when he lost
control. If you mean in PoD when Rand used Callandor, he was tackled
by Bashere. I don't recall any Asha'man attacking Rand who weren't
Darkfriends.

But some Asha'man who were ticked off at Rand's error did attack him in the Palace
afterwards.

[zheemnookin]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Sarah Coit

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Sarah Coit
Tylee said that she'd heard of several men being caught that way,
although not exactly what it did to them. It makes you wonder
whether the Seanchan already have male channelers as prisoners,
but that's fairly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised to see Asha'man
get traded away as stakes in Rand's deal.

If Rand were to agree to let the Seanchan leash Asha'man, wouldn't the Asha'man
rebel against him? Several books ago, Asha'man did attack Rand after Rand lost
contol of the OP and killed some of the Asha'man.

I'm not suggesting that Rand would allow them to be leashed, only that
he would assign them to the Seanchan, the same way he assigned Grady
& Neald to Perrin and assorted Aes Sedai have been traded off to the
Sea Folk.
I'm not sure what you mean by the Asha'man attacking Rand when he lost
control. If you mean in PoD when Rand used Callandor, he was tackled
by Bashere. I don't recall any Asha'man attacking Rand who weren't
Darkfriends.

But some Asha'man who were ticked off at Rand's error did attack him in the Palace
afterwards.

They were darkfriends; they weren't merely pissed off.

[Christer Jacobsson]

Post by Sarah Coit

Post by Tim Ellingson
When the soldiers searched the house they found a massacre of people. If
Semi really had intended to have tea, wouldn't she have cleaned up first.
Plus the plain box of a'dams was inside the door and uncovered. That would
have been a big tip off for anyone entering the house.

Probably, but not necessarily. I don't recall that the soldiers said
where the bloodstains were, only that they were in several rooms.
Guests wouldn't be allowed to search the house, so if the stains
were in the back bedrooms or some such they would probably
go unnoticed.

Post by Tim Ellingson
One other thing, do we know if forkroot works for males?

Tylee said that she'd heard of several men being caught that way,
although not exactly what it did to them. It makes you wonder
whether the Seanchan already have male channelers as prisoners,
but that's fairly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised to see Asha'man
get traded away as stakes in Rand's deal.

Could not Idrie (who leads the science school/workshop) set up a small
project and study this matter? We know forkroot affect female
channelers but we do little if it is effective against male
channelers. Let the Asha'man capture those whose names are put on the
Treason List, shield them and hand them over to Idrien for study. If
she must, she can force-feed them forkroot tea and study the results.
Set up a two-choice for those Asha'mans condemned for treason: enrol
in Idrien's forkroot study program or execution.

Facts are needed in this matter - get them!

[Peter Reid]

Post by Jamie Bowden

Post by Be'lal

Post by zheemnookin
Besides, the place was searched and the box with the adams uncovered,
but no one said anything about tea or forkroot.

As was already mentioned in other posts, the soldiers searched the
house, not any channeler we know has knowledge of forkroot.

So, Nyneave and Elayne didn't actually get introduced to forkroot back in
LoC?

I believe what the previous poster was saying is that "no channeller who
has knowledge of forkroot _search_the_house_". ie. that Nynaeve wasn't
involved in the search of the house itself.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Spoiler space

Post by zheemnookin
Good point. I just wish we could have had a female's perspective on the
encounter. Semi facing Nyn and her angreal would be hard-pressed to do
anything.

I think this is why so many people were disappointed by this scene.
If RJ had used Cadsuane or Nynaeve's POV, this would have been more
enjoyable. It reminds me of Tolkien cutting off the Battle of the Five
Armies scene after Bilbo was knocked unconscious.

Post by zheemnookin

Post by Be'lal
I don't expect either side particularly wanted it to come down to a
Power-duel--7 on 7 is pretty risky, all else being equal. However, Ny
and Cads tipped the scales with their *angreal sets, which the Dark
doesn't seem to have completely clued in on yet. Cads keeps her set's
abilities fairly secret, and Ny's was just discovered. I imagine most
of the FS attribute the rout at SL to the presence of Callandor and bad
luck, and any who might have knowledge of the *angreal set (such as
Cyndane) aren't in the habit of telling everything to the other FS
anyway.

Yes. It is, however, horrendous planning by a FS who has been
described, almost from the beginning, as meticulous and patient. Her
whole plans relied on maintaining a Mask of Mirrors, and hoping an
extremely wary Rand & co. drink some tea..? No pre-prepared traps? It
strikes me as incredible still.

The forkroot comment was out of left field and clearly has no support.
From Semirhage's POV, this situation was not 7 on 7, it was 7 on 6.
She obviously would not count Min. She must have figured that the
damane she brought with her would be equal to or greater than those
she brought with her, but it was her own involvement that she was
counting on for an advantage. She also would have wanted to take
out Rand quickly, and she succeeded at that, although she was kind
of lucky that Rand was fighting Lews Therin for the source and he
got so concerned with Min's safety that he failed to dodge that
fireball. I don't think she was being stupid in thinking that
an even battle altered by the presence of herself would end in victory
in her favor.

As for why the a'dams were left in the building, she must have figured
on whipping those out after victory. Remember, Tuon and Seleucia
had to reach for a'dams before them could collar Teslyn, Joline, and
Edesina. Surely Tuon's advantages over those Aes Sedai were less than
those of Semirhage over Rand's party.

I am surprised that Semirhage did not try to "cheat" more than she did.
On the other hand, it doesn't look like her victory would have final
even if her party had managed to shield Rand's, because Rand had a
rescue squad coming, and he had a signal prepared to summon them.

-Bill E. Brooks

[Vinny R.]

Post by zheemnookin
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Enh, talk about a horrendously anti-climactic battle scene. Worse, it
was not at all remotely "believable" (as these things go). Semi knew
full well that Rand would be at the meeting along with at least 5 or 6
others, and she knew damn well that the other 5 or 6 would be
channelers. Hell, we're reminded -- AGAIN! -- that she and Dem like to
chit-chat, and there are furiously strong hints that Dem has very
strong ties to the Black Tower -- so Semi must have known that Rand's
Ashaman weren't completely and utterly negligible.
And she, a Golden Age-r, must know what Novices know: It's pretty damn
hard to shield folks who have already embraced/seized the Source.
What in the HELL was she thinking? How utterly stupid is she? And when
I say "utterly stupid," I mean UTTERLY dimwitted. She thought, what,
that she'd walk out in disguise, and then command her 5 or 6 damane to
shield everyone? The ONLY way that would work is with the extremely
thin possibility that (1) Rand and co. would NOT be filled with the
Power, or that (2) there was some sort of terangreal to prevent the
Good Guys from doing so.
And there was neither!
Hell, we don't even know if the damane are strong. And we're given
strong reason to suspect that they're not even darkfriends, given their
reactions. So Semi didn't even have them come prepared with inverted
shields are anything!
My gosh, what an utterly stupid, stupid plan. Can someone please tell
me anything that will lessen my incredulousness and this whole scene
and somehow remotely redeem Semi? (Who, by the way, managed to throw a
SINGLE FIREBALL at Rand? Egwene managed more when playing around with
the Accepted teacher in the classroom!)
Someone tell me I'm missing something. I don't mind looking like an
idiot who missed something obvious -- well, I do, but I'd rather look
like a careless reader/fan than the alternative: the utter, UTTER
incredible (and I mean that literally: INcredible) dumbing down of the
Forsaken.
Cheers.

I find it much more likely that getting caught and imprisoned was a part
of her larger plan. In the past, DFs have had no problem rescuing their
cohorts from the forces of Light's clutches, or dispensing Dark justice
on the prisoners for their failures (Fain in Sheinar, BA in the Stone,
BA with Adeleas). So Semirhage now has the power to inject suspicion
and chaos from within Rand's contingent. Think of her being in the same
position Egwene is in right now.

-VR

[zheemnookin]

Vinny:

The Semi-Egwene analogy is a bit thin, though. People seemed surprised
that Eg wasn't stilled and/or executed, and that's coming from AS who
follow the Light and explicitly except DFs from their oaths of
violence; how could Semi think she wouldn't be killed or stilled as
punishment? More to the point, how can Semi think she wouldn't be
killed or stilled in the heat of battle, by overzealous Ashaman, AS or
a crazy LTT/Rand?

I just don't see why, given the deaths of so many FS, Semi would have
thought that she would be taken prisoner instead of killed/stilled.
Nothing in her arrangements for the meeting suggest any safeguards
against her being killed. Maybe if some of the AS uncovered some odd
AoL-era weaves that prevent offensive weaves and only allow shielding
(or thereabouts), then Semi would have at least successfully eliminated
the possibility of being killed/stilled in the heat of battle -- and
transferred all her hopes of surviving captivity. But we've seen zero
indication of that, either.

Still confused here.

[Aaron]

Post by zheemnookin
The Semi-Egwene analogy is a bit thin, though. People seemed surprised
that Eg wasn't stilled and/or executed, and that's coming from AS who
follow the Light and explicitly except DFs from their oaths of
violence; how could Semi think she wouldn't be killed or stilled as
punishment? More to the point, how can Semi think she wouldn't be
killed or stilled in the heat of battle, by overzealous Ashaman, AS or
a crazy LTT/Rand?

She knows, as does practically everyone else in Randland, that Rand
will never willingly harm a woman, or allow anyone else to, even a
female Forsaken. As for stilling, does he actually know the weave to do
that? I think he has seen Asmo try it on him, but I can't remember
correctly. Perhaps she at least feels she will be interrogated for a
while, and maybe she is acting as part of a larger plan by Moridin.

-Aaron

[zheemnookin]

Post by Aaron
She knows, as does practically everyone else in Randland, that Rand
will never willingly harm a woman, or allow anyone else to, even a
female Forsaken. As for stilling, does he actually know the weave to do
that? I think he has seen Asmo try it on him, but I can't remember
correctly. Perhaps she at least feels she will be interrogated for a
while, and maybe she is acting as part of a larger plan by Moridin.

Rand's entourage nearly killed several female FS at SL only weeks
earlier. More to the point, Semi must think, as does the rest of the
world, that an AS killed Lanfear to protect Rand in a face-to-face
confrontation -- so why does she think that no one would be equally
protective now, even against Rand's orders?

As for stilling, I was actually referring to the female AS. Semi must
know the White Tower stills channelers; and even if she doesn't know,
stilling isn't that much different than shielding. Egwene has done it,
and Nyn tried to do it against Moggy, and each of them figured it own
on her own, untrained as they were. Would Semi really risk hoping that
no channelers would know how to simply sharpen the edges of a shield in
the heat of battle?

Your theory re: Rand's reluctance to still/kill women would be much
more plausible if Semi arranged for a one-on-one meeting with Rand
only. Then, even unmasked, Semi could be a bit more confident that at
least Rand wouldn't kill her. But too much has happened for Semi to
feel so comfortable with Rand and his FS-murdering entourage NOT to try
to kill Semi -- so allowing Rand to invite 5-7 channelers is
ridiculous.

[zheemnookin]

Sorry, to follow up: Unless Semi is oblivious to the Red Ajah, she HAS
to know that she may be stilled.

She also knows about the Oath Rod -- wasn't she the one who said
something like "They bind themselves like criminals!" way back when? Is
she so reckless to think her captors can't get a hold of one and use it
on her immediately, esp. given her admission that she's a Forsaken (and
a scary bitch of one to boot)?

I just can't begin to imagine what Semi thought she'd accomplish in
captivity -- if we even give her that much credit, which itself
requires her to be stupid and reckless to think she'd survive the
battle! She still would have to worry about getting killed or stilled
immediately afterwards by a crazy LTT/Rand or overzealous channelers,
or bound by an oath rod to do who-knows-what and render her
"oh-so-clever" captivity plans utterly useless. What gives?

Any way you slice it, this entire scene makes zero sense.

[Rast]

Post by zheemnookin
Sorry, to follow up: Unless Semi is oblivious to the Red Ajah, she HAS
to know that she may be stilled.

I don't understand why she _wasn't_ stilled immediately after capture.
It's an obvious protective measure, and has really no downside, since it
can be reversed. Semi probably knows it can be reversed, but it would
still go a long ways towards breaking her. Cads of all people should have
known to do this, if she was one-quarter as capable as Jordan has built
her up as. They don't even put one of the a'dam on her, although Nyn
knows from experience that the Forsaken are able to break through tied-off
shields.

Other problems I had with the scene:


- ' "She shouted for them to shield us," Nynaeve said, "but they couldn't
because we were all holding the Power already. If we hadn't been, if
Cadsuane and I hadn't had our ter'angreal, I don't know what would have
happened." '

I don't care how many ter'angreal and masked weaves people are using --
Semi plus 3 random damane shouldn't be able to shield Rand, Logain, Nyn
(all forsaken-class), plus Narishma, Cads, and the other guy.


- ' An Asha'man and Aes Sedai in a ring of two could make a gateway
considerably larger than those Rand could alone. '

Bullshit. Yes, Jordan has told us over and over that men and women
working together can do more blah blah blah, but this is Joe Asha'man +
Jane Sedai we are talking about here, not Logain + Nyn, or even Narshima +
Moraine. They should be miles below Rand. Over the last few books,
Jordan seems to have significantly ramped up the power of Everyone Else
relative to Our Heros. I don't like it.


- That fireball. What was the point? If Rand had been able to channel,
it wouldn't even have been a good distraction. I don't know why one of
the channelers with him didn't simply slap it away. Seems like Jordan was
just ticking off "Rand loses a hand" from his checklist. How meaningless.

(It occurs to me that Nyn or Dashiva could probably figure out a way to
graft a hand onto Rand's arm. They'd need a weave to handle the tissue-
rejection problem, too. Semi is an obvious donor candidate, except Rand
probably wouldn't be cool with that.)

[zheemnookin]

Post by Rast
- That fireball. What was the point? If Rand had been able to channel,
it wouldn't even have been a good distraction. I don't know why one of
the channelers with him didn't simply slap it away. Seems like Jordan was
just ticking off "Rand loses a hand" from his checklist. How meaningless.

What makes it equally unbelievable is that Nynaeve and Cadsuane were
walking right next to him, one on each side.

Another major issue with the scene? Nynaeve didn't bother trying to
help Rand for some time, which I just can't believe. Nyn, standing
right next to Rand, saw the fireball Semi threw, and must have seen it
strike. Then, when Rand regains consciousness, Nyn isn't by his side --
she's off healing other Ashaman, and is so far away that she has to
"gather[] her skirts...and hurr[y] to Rand" to reach him when the
Rescue Squad arrives. And Cadsuane is off examining Semi! This, after
she takes it as her personal task to defend Rand during Cleansing.

So irritating.

[yhooders]

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Post by Rast
(It occurs to me that Nyn or Dashiva could probably figure out a way to
graft a hand onto Rand's arm. They'd need a weave to handle the tissue-
rejection problem, too. Semi is an obvious donor candidate, except Rand
probably wouldn't be cool with that.)

Dashiva was Osan'gar, and is dead. The only one who might be able to
heal Rand is Semirhage herself.

-YH

[Rast]

Post by yhooders
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Post by Rast
(It occurs to me that Nyn or Dashiva could probably figure out a way to
graft a hand onto Rand's arm. They'd need a weave to handle the tissue-
rejection problem, too. Semi is an obvious donor candidate, except Rand
probably wouldn't be cool with that.)

Dashiva was Osan'gar, and is dead. The only one who might be able to
heal Rand is Semirhage herself.

Sorry, I meant Damer Flinn. I think there's a decent chance he could
figure out a hand transplant.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by zheemnookin

Post by Rast
- That fireball. What was the point? If Rand had been able to channel,
it wouldn't even have been a good distraction. I don't know why one of
the channelers with him didn't simply slap it away. Seems like Jordan was
just ticking off "Rand loses a hand" from his checklist. How meaningless.

What makes it equally unbelievable is that Nynaeve and Cadsuane were
walking right next to him, one on each side.

I am not sure anyone knew how to stop a fireball in this way except
Lews Therin, who was trying to reach for the source, and Rand. LT/Rand
did it once before, when Osan'gar, Gedwyn, and Rochaid attacked Rand in
Cairhien. Rand could have just moved out of the way, but he was afraid
Min would get hurt. Remember that Mat's ter'angreal can't stop
fireballs, and likely Cadsuane's can't either.

Post by zheemnookin
Another major issue with the scene? Nynaeve didn't bother trying to
help Rand for some time, which I just can't believe. Nyn, standing
right next to Rand, saw the fireball Semi threw, and must have seen it
strike. Then, when Rand regains consciousness, Nyn isn't by his side --
she's off healing other Ashaman, and is so far away that she has to
"gather[] her skirts...and hurr[y] to Rand" to reach him when the
Rescue Squad arrives. And Cadsuane is off examining Semi! This, after
she takes it as her personal task to defend Rand during Cleansing.
So irritating.

I think Nynaeve was healing that other Asha'man because she figured
she could do more good with him. He healed quite nicely. Rand,
on the other hand, was just left with a stump at the end of his arm.
She probably didn't know about the bleeding from the wounds in his side
until she delved him.

-Bill E. Brooks

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by zheemnookin

Post by Rast
- That fireball. What was the point? If Rand had been able to channel,
it wouldn't even have been a good distraction. I don't know why one of
the channelers with him didn't simply slap it away. Seems like Jordan was
just ticking off "Rand loses a hand" from his checklist. How meaningless.

What makes it equally unbelievable is that Nynaeve and Cadsuane were
walking right next to him, one on each side.

I am not sure anyone knew how to stop a fireball in this way except
Lews Therin, who was trying to reach for the source, and Rand. LT/Rand
did it once before, when Osan'gar, Gedwyn, and Rochaid attacked Rand in
Cairhien. Rand could have just moved out of the way, but he was afraid
Min would get hurt. Remember that Mat's ter'angreal can't stop
fireballs, and likely Cadsuane's can't either.

Mat's ter'angreal should stop fireballs if they exist solely of the
Power. Tossing a piano on his head with the Power, however, will still
get him. Likewise, I'd imagine superheating a chunk of rock and tossing
it at him would set him aflame.

Post by Bill E. Brooks
I think Nynaeve was healing that other Asha'man because she figured
she could do more good with him. He healed quite nicely. Rand,
on the other hand, was just left with a stump at the end of his arm.
She probably didn't know about the bleeding from the wounds in his side
until she delved him.

Also, I read it as Rand being knocked a significant distance out of the
saddle.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by Bill E. Brooks

Post by zheemnookin
What makes it equally unbelievable is that Nynaeve and Cadsuane were
walking right next to him, one on each side.

I am not sure anyone knew how to stop a fireball in this way except
Lews Therin, who was trying to reach for the source, and Rand. LT/Rand
did it once before, when Osan'gar, Gedwyn, and Rochaid attacked Rand in
Cairhien. Rand could have just moved out of the way, but he was afraid
Min would get hurt. Remember that Mat's ter'angreal can't stop
fireballs, and likely Cadsuane's can't either.

Mat's ter'angreal should stop fireballs if they exist solely of the
Power. Tossing a piano on his head with the Power, however, will still
get him. Likewise, I'd imagine superheating a chunk of rock and tossing
it at him would set him aflame.

If. You could say the same thing about lightning. Perhaps someone
has a quote from RJ as to whether fireballs are pure Power or an effect
of the power. I do not remember for sure.

Btw, I remembered since I last posted that there are some more instances
of shields that might stop fireballs. Rand's FoH shield might have,
but he was so slow in making it that it didn't help Mat, Aviendha, or
Asmodean, but only him, in the short run. So it is doubtful that
Nynaeve or Cadsuane could have protected him with a shield quickly
enough. Also, the Aes Sedai who kidnapped Rand in LoC were able to
form a shield that stopped lightning bolts from the Shaido Wise Ones.

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by Bill E. Brooks
I think Nynaeve was healing that other Asha'man because she figured
she could do more good with him. He healed quite nicely. Rand,
on the other hand, was just left with a stump at the end of his arm.
She probably didn't know about the bleeding from the wounds in his side
until she delved him.

Also, I read it as Rand being knocked a significant distance out of the
saddle.

Ok. My impression was that Nynaeve felt there was something she could
heal of that Asha'man, but of Rand, well, his hand was gone. And
perhaps Rand wasn't the only one who fell out of his saddle.

-Bill E. Brooks

[zheemnookin]

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Btw, I remembered since I last posted that there are some more instances
of shields that might stop fireballs. Rand's FoH shield might have,
but he was so slow in making it that it didn't help Mat, Aviendha, or
Asmodean, but only him, in the short run. So it is doubtful that
Nynaeve or Cadsuane could have protected him with a shield quickly
enough.

That was Rahvin's lightning, not fireballs.

The fireball wasn't traveling as fast as a lightning bolt; Rand had
time to consider his options and try to block it. We know how fast
people can seize/embrace and wield the Power, so I think there's plenty
of time for Nyn or Cadsuane to do something. These are women who faced
far worse than fireballs thrown at them, and still had time to respond
in other battles.

Post by Bill E. Brooks
I'm talking about prioritizing, not delaying.... Also, I read it as Rand being knocked a >significant distance out of the saddle... The point was, as was stated in CoT of a >Shaido Stone Dog, she "could
not give him his hand back". So healing his hand was, for the most
part, futile. All she could do was fix his wrist so that it wouldn't
bleed.

(combined responses above)

Well, if Rand really were thrown so far back, then that's all the more
reason for Nynaeve to rush to his side, not less of a reason. (Not to
nitpick, but no one was riding a horse at that point, either.)

Also, I read the passage as Nynaeve seeing Rand's injury for the first
time AFTER healing the Ashaman: "Nynaeve...hurried to Rand. 'Oh, Rand,'
she said when she saw his arm, 'I'm so sorry. I....I'll do what I can,
but I can't fix it the way it was.'Her eyes were filled with anguish."

It sounds to me that Nynaeve hadn't seen Rand's injuries until that
point. Which means that Nynaeve, inexplicably, after walking next to
Rand and watching him get struck by a fireball (and perhaps, as you
thought, flung far back by one), opted to walk to one of the
furthest-positioned Good Guys to Heal a broken arm, rather than going
to Rand's side.

Post by Bill E. Brooks
Heh. Well, I think he was being lazy, or he wanted to downplay the
showdown, for some reason. Maybe he felt the book was getting too long,
or maybe he made a cut. Perhaps he wanted to emphasize that Rand was
out of the battle after that. Whatever the reason, I think it was a
poor decision on his part, and it clearly, from what I have read on this
newsgroup, has been an unpopular one.

I just think it was piss-poor through and through. You want Rand to
lose his hand? Fine. Don't eviscerate Nynaeve's character in the
process, yeesh. Let her rush to his side, struggle, and then
reluctantly go elsewhere after realizing she's done all she can while
others needed Healing too. Cadsuane, as big a bitch as she is, also
wouldn't leave Rand's side like that to go inspect Semi. It's just
pretty unbelievable how Cads and Nyn behaved.

[zheemnookin]

Post by Bill E. Brooks
I think Nynaeve was healing that other Asha'man because she figured
she could do more good with him. He healed quite nicely. Rand,
on the other hand, was just left with a stump at the end of his arm.
She probably didn't know about the bleeding from the wounds in his side
until she delved him.

I can't believe that Nynaeve would leave Rand's side after watching him
take a fireball and collapse, all b/c she'd rather Heal a minor injury
by a stranger. She grew up with Rand, is overprotective by nature and
esp. towards her Two Rivers companions, and has never once delayed
Healing someone b/c she thought it would be futile, much less pass over
someone with a more serious injury for someone with a less serious
injury -- much less all the above in one package.

There just isn't any explanation for Nyn to behave the way she did. Or
Cadsuane for that matter.

I also think it makes clear why we didn't get a Good Gal's perspective
on the fight. How would it go, exactly?

Cadsuane [who, recall, was immediately to Rand's side at the beginning
of the battle, and closely inspecting Semi at the end of the battle]:
"The fireball struck the boy, and he collapsed in agony. She furiously
wove and slammed three shields into the damane while watching Nynaeve's
immense shield slam into the Forsaken. A lightning bolt -- not of
saidar -- slammed into one of the suldam. The men were ready, it seems.
The battle was over quickly. Afterwards, she stepped over the
smoldering body of the boy on her way to more closely observe the
Forsaken's gorgeous lip gloss."

Nynaeve [who, recall, was also immediately to Rand's sdie at the
beginning of the battle, and pretty far off with another Ashaman at the
end of the battle]: "The fireball struck Rand, and he collapsed in
agony while Min screamed and threw a knife from nowhere. She drew
deeply on her adam and was surprised at how easily her shield cut off
the Forsaken from the Source. She quickly looked around when the battle
was over, and kicked aside Rand's smoldering body on her way to Heal an
Ashaman she had never seen before in her entire life, but who had what
seemed to be a BROKEN ARM! LIGHT! She tripped over Rand's index finger
and quickly kicked it away, her eyes focused on that horrible BROKEN
ARM."

So, given how the Good Gals acted so inexplicably, it's no wonder we
saw nothing from their eyes. (And yes, I know I'm not a very good
writer, satirical or not.)
.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by zheemnookin
I can't believe that Nynaeve would leave Rand's side after watching him
take a fireball and collapse, all b/c she'd rather Heal a minor injury
by a stranger. She grew up with Rand, is overprotective by nature and
esp. towards her Two Rivers companions, and has never once delayed
Healing someone b/c she thought it would be futile,

I'm talking about prioritizing, not delaying.

Post by zheemnookin
much less pass over
someone with a more serious injury for someone with a less serious
injury -- much less all the above in one package.

The point was, as was stated in CoT of a Shaido Stone Dog, she "could
not give him his hand back". So healing his hand was, for the most
part, futile. All she could do was fix his wrist so that it wouldn't
bleed.

Post by zheemnookin
So, given how the Good Gals acted so inexplicably, it's no wonder we
saw nothing from their eyes. (And yes, I know I'm not a very good
writer, satirical or not.)

Heh. Well, I think he was being lazy, or he wanted to downplay the
showdown, for some reason. Maybe he felt the book was getting too long,
or maybe he made a cut. Perhaps he wanted to emphasize that Rand was
out of the battle after that. Whatever the reason, I think it was a
poor decision on his part, and it clearly, from what I have read on this
newsgroup, has been an unpopular one.

-Bill E. Brooks

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Rast

Post by zheemnookin
Sorry, to follow up: Unless Semi is oblivious to the Red Ajah, she HAS
to know that she may be stilled.

I don't understand why she _wasn't_ stilled immediately after capture.
It's an obvious protective measure, and has really no downside, since it
can be reversed. Semi probably knows it can be reversed, but it would
still go a long ways towards breaking her. Cads of all people should have
known to do this, if she was one-quarter as capable as Jordan has built
her up as. They don't even put one of the a'dam on her, although Nyn
knows from experience that the Forsaken are able to break through tied-off
shields.

This actually brings up a point that has been eating at me for some
time re: how Nyn and Elayne handled Moghedien's capture. After healing
Siuan and Leane and discovering that they were significantly weaker
than they had been, why didn't they immediately still and heal
Moghedien, thus leaving her perhaps on par with Elayne? Doing so would
have gone a long way towards breaking her spirit and ensuring that, in
the event of an escape, she would not be the threat to the Light that
she once was while leaving her able to teach the Power.

Anyone see any good reasons why this wasn't done?

<snip!>

Post by Rast
I don't care how many ter'angreal and masked weaves people are using --
Semi plus 3 random damane shouldn't be able to shield Rand, Logain, Nyn
(all forsaken-class), plus Narishma, Cads, and the other guy.

Logain is Forsaken-class? I didn't know that. Any thoughts on whether
Logain is stronger or weaker than Nyn? I know she thought she couldn't
maintain her shield on him alone, but that isn't definitive. Different
people have different abilities with shielding irrespective of
strength.

Post by Rast
- ' An Asha'man and Aes Sedai in a ring of two could make a gateway
considerably larger than those Rand could alone. '
Bullshit. Yes, Jordan has told us over and over that men and women
working together can do more blah blah blah, but this is Joe Asha'man +
Jane Sedai we are talking about here, not Logain + Nyn, or even Narshima +
Moraine. They should be miles below Rand. Over the last few books,
Jordan seems to have significantly ramped up the power of Everyone Else
relative to Our Heros. I don't like it.

Yeah, I agree. It seems like half the Sea Folk we meet are stronger
than Egwene! Still, in this specific case, from the beginning it was
noted that a man and a woman were waaaay stronger linking than either
alone, so it seems possible. Also, women can make longer bridges than
men with the power regardless of their strength, so maybe this is
something similar (i.e. a man+woman link is not as strong as Rand
necessarily, but can make larger gateways for some other reason).

Post by Rast
- That fireball. What was the point? If Rand had been able to channel,
it wouldn't even have been a good distraction. I don't know why one of
the channelers with him didn't simply slap it away. Seems like Jordan was
just ticking off "Rand loses a hand" from his checklist. How meaningless.

It's possible she was doing plenty of other stuff that did get blocked,
slapped aside, etc...

[Oliver Daniels]

Post by m***@hotmail.com
Logain is Forsaken-class? I didn't know that. Any thoughts on whether
Logain is stronger or weaker than Nyn? I know she thought she couldn't
maintain her shield on him alone, but that isn't definitive. Different
people have different abilities with shielding irrespective of
strength.

Logain and Taim are both Forsaken-class channelers. Rand has observed
on several separate occasions that they can hold almost as much saidin
as him. Although, in TGH, Verin (Or maybe Moiraine) says Logain would
be burnt to a cinder if he tried to use the Choedan Kal. Obviously a
continuity error.

Rand is significantly stronger than Nynaeve - therefore Logain is too.
But RJ does have a very annoying habit of constantly moving the
goalposts when it comes to channeler strength.

[BenM]

Post by Rast

Post by zheemnookin
Sorry, to follow up: Unless Semi is oblivious to the Red Ajah, she HAS
to know that she may be stilled.

I don't understand why she _wasn't_ stilled immediately after capture.
It's an obvious protective measure, and has really no downside, since it
can be reversed. Semi probably knows it can be reversed, but it would
still go a long ways towards breaking her. Cads of all people should have
known to do this, if she was one-quarter as capable as Jordan has built
her up as. They don't even put one of the a'dam on her, although Nyn
knows from experience that the Forsaken are able to break through tied-off
shields.

Stilling, even a Forsaken, on her own... wouldn't that violate Tower
law? I agree they should have put an a'dam on her, and maybe they will
yet do so.

Post by Rast
- ' "She shouted for them to shield us," Nynaeve said, "but they couldn't
because we were all holding the Power already. If we hadn't been, if
Cadsuane and I hadn't had our ter'angreal, I don't know what would have
happened." '
I don't care how many ter'angreal and masked weaves people are using --
Semi plus 3 random damane shouldn't be able to shield Rand, Logain, Nyn
(all forsaken-class), plus Narishma, Cads, and the other guy.
- ' An Asha'man and Aes Sedai in a ring of two could make a gateway
considerably larger than those Rand could alone. '
Bullshit. Yes, Jordan has told us over and over that men and women
working together can do more blah blah blah, but this is Joe Asha'man +
Jane Sedai we are talking about here, not Logain + Nyn, or even Narshima +
Moraine.

Moiraine is actually significantly weaker than the Wonder Girls.
Anyway, point taken, though you may be underestimating how much more
powerful men and women working together is. RJ, while not infallible,
did create the world of the series, so he knows how he designed things
to work.
<snip>

[Rast]

Post by BenM

Post by Rast

Post by zheemnookin
Sorry, to follow up: Unless Semi is oblivious to the Red Ajah, she HAS
to know that she may be stilled.

I don't understand why she _wasn't_ stilled immediately after capture.
It's an obvious protective measure, and has really no downside, since it
can be reversed. Semi probably knows it can be reversed, but it would
still go a long ways towards breaking her. Cads of all people should have
known to do this, if she was one-quarter as capable as Jordan has built
her up as. They don't even put one of the a'dam on her, although Nyn
knows from experience that the Forsaken are able to break through tied-off
shields.

Stilling, even a Forsaken, on her own... wouldn't that violate Tower
law? I agree they should have put an a'dam on her, and maybe they will
yet do so.

Since when does Cads care what Tower law says? She does what she wants.
It isn't as if anyone from the Tower will find out, or put her on trial
for it:

"Cadsuane Melaidhrin, you stand accused of stilling Semirhage, one of the
cruelest and most evil of the Forsaken, moments after her attempt to kill
the Dragon Reborn ended up seriously maiming him. What do you have to say
for yourself?"

"The Dragon Reborn had secretly made me promise to immediately still any
Forsaken we happened to capture. You could check my story with him,
except he died saving the world at the Last Battle, a few weeks ago."

Post by BenM
you may be underestimating how much more
powerful men and women working together is. RJ, while not infallible,
did create the world of the series, so he knows how he designed things
to work.

Like someone else said, the goalposts keep moving.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by BenM

Post by Rast

Post by zheemnookin
Sorry, to follow up: Unless Semi is oblivious to the Red Ajah, she HAS
to know that she may be stilled.

I don't understand why she _wasn't_ stilled immediately after capture.
It's an obvious protective measure, and has really no downside, since it
can be reversed. Semi probably knows it can be reversed, but it would
still go a long ways towards breaking her. Cads of all people should have
known to do this, if she was one-quarter as capable as Jordan has built
her up as. They don't even put one of the a'dam on her, although Nyn
knows from experience that the Forsaken are able to break through tied-off
shields.

Stilling, even a Forsaken, on her own... wouldn't that violate Tower
law? I agree they should have put an a'dam on her, and maybe they will
yet do so.

I don't understand why Rand didn't just balefire her immediately. He'd
have probably gotten his hand back, too.



scott

[zheemnookin]

Rand didn't care that he lost his hand.

[p***@yahoo.com]

I think Semi, like all the forsaken have a huge personality problem
called overconfidence. Something along the lines of "I'm the best
there is, and all these low life savages suck so bad I can defeat them
with one hand tied behind my back."

[Frank van Schie]

Post by p***@yahoo.com
I think Semi, like all the forsaken have a huge personality problem
called overconfidence. Something along the lines of "I'm the best
there is, and all these low life savages suck so bad I can defeat them
with one hand tied behind my back."

Not exactly difficult when there are loose hands lying about. Well done.

[zheemnookin]

***@yahoo.com Oct 28, 11:28 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan
From: ***@yahoo.com - Find messages by this author
Date: 28 Oct 2005 08:28:14 -0700
Local: Fri, Oct 28 2005 11:28 am

Subject: Re: KoD / Semi / Spoilers
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I think Semi, like all the forsaken have a huge personality problem
called overconfidence. Something along the lines of "I'm the best
there is, and all these low life savages suck so bad I can defeat them
with one hand tied behind my back."

Except she and her Uber-Superior colleagues got their collective asses
kicked by these "savages" only a handful of weeks ago.

Unless RJ really did perform lobotomies on all the FS, I can't believe
they would be overconfident to the point of completely unrealistic and
suicidal.

[Christer Jacobsson]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by BenM

Post by Rast

Post by zheemnookin
Sorry, to follow up: Unless Semi is oblivious to the Red Ajah, she HAS
to know that she may be stilled.

I don't understand why she _wasn't_ stilled immediately after capture.
It's an obvious protective measure, and has really no downside, since it
can be reversed. Semi probably knows it can be reversed, but it would
still go a long ways towards breaking her. Cads of all people should have
known to do this, if she was one-quarter as capable as Jordan has built
her up as. They don't even put one of the a'dam on her, although Nyn
knows from experience that the Forsaken are able to break through tied-off
shields.

Stilling, even a Forsaken, on her own... wouldn't that violate Tower
law? I agree they should have put an a'dam on her, and maybe they will
yet do so.

I don't understand why Rand didn't just balefire her immediately. He'd
have probably gotten his hand back, too.

Rand have an issue over killing women. He didn't off Lanfear when he
had the chance and he couldn't sentence Colavaere to death althoug her
crimes merited the death penalty.

But he *could* have stilled her, in fact, he stilled a numbers of AS
back at Dumani's Wells when he broke the shield they had put on him.
For Semi, stilling would had been a more horrible punishment than mere
death.

[Jamie Bowden]

<Semirhage lets loose a blast of hot air from her nether regions.>

Post by Scott Lurndal
I don't understand why Rand didn't just balefire her immediately. He'd
have probably gotten his hand back, too.

He really doesn't like killing women, even Forsaken, as Chris points out
below, and on top of that, Cadsuane has made it clear that he won't be
using balefire while she's around.

Rand have an issue over killing women. He didn't off Lanfear when he had
the chance and he couldn't sentence Colavaere to death althoug her
crimes merited the death penalty.

Fate worse than death, but he doesn't see that, of course.

But he *could* have stilled her, in fact, he stilled a numbers of AS
back at Dumani's Wells when he broke the shield they had put on him.
For Semi, stilling would had been a more horrible punishment than mere
death.

He didn't still them on purpose, he just struck out with his sheild weave
with as sharp an edge as he could since he knew they were already holding
saidar, which is the difference between putting a temporary sheild in
place, and cutting off the source forever. Had he known that, it may not
have stopped him doing it, but either way, it was unintentional, and
Semirhage isn't some random low level Aes Sedai, she's one of the
strongest female channelers ever to live. It may not have been quite so
easy with her.

Jamie Bowden

[Mitchell Swan]

Post by Jamie Bowden
He didn't still them on purpose, he just struck out with his sheild weave
with as sharp an edge as he could since he knew they were already holding
saidar, which is the difference between putting a temporary sheild in
place, and cutting off the source forever. Had he known that, it may not
have stopped him doing it, but either way, it was unintentional, and
Semirhage isn't some random low level Aes Sedai, she's one of the
strongest female channelers ever to live. It may not have been quite so
easy with her.

I don't think he was even aware of what he was trying to do. It
certainly didn't seem like he was trying to shield them. It says he
crushed the remaining 3 soft points of the shield with fists of
Spirit, which sounds nothing like an attempted shielding. Nothing
about edges at all.

I agree that Rand didn't specifically try stilling them, therefore it
was unintentional, although it's possible that LTT had some
"influence" in what Rand wove. Even LTT might have been unaware that
crushing the AS weaves would have had that effect but he certainly
would have been aiming for more than a shield.

[Chris]

Post by zheemnookin
Sorry, to follow up: Unless Semi is oblivious to the Red Ajah, she HAS
to know that she may be stilled.
She also knows about the Oath Rod -- wasn't she the one who said
something like "They bind themselves like criminals!" way back when? Is
she so reckless to think her captors can't get a hold of one and use it
on her immediately, esp. given her admission that she's a Forsaken (and
a scary bitch of one to boot)?
I just can't begin to imagine what Semi thought she'd accomplish in
captivity -- if we even give her that much credit, which itself
requires her to be stupid and reckless to think she'd survive the
battle! She still would have to worry about getting killed or stilled
immediately afterwards by a crazy LTT/Rand or overzealous channelers,
or bound by an oath rod to do who-knows-what and render her
"oh-so-clever" captivity plans utterly useless. What gives?
Any way you slice it, this entire scene makes zero sense.

Given the current information that we have regarding the entire fiasco,
I think the only possible explanation that makes sense is that Semi
wasn't really expecting a battle. Maybe this was just supposed to be a
preliminary, "get-to-know-you" meeting so that Semi could take a look at
what she was up against? Yes, she had a big ole box of a'dam waiting,
but who's to say that they were supposed to be part of today's plan, or
they weren't just lying around in case the proverbial dog doo did hit
the fan and somehow Semi's crew came out on top? I think jumping to the
conclusion that Semi entered this situation expecting a OP brawl could
be a big mistake. Honestly, I think most of the evidence we see points
to her NOT believing that a battle is going to take place.

Chris Morth

[Oliver Daniels]

Post by Chris
Given the current information that we have regarding the entire fiasco,
I think the only possible explanation that makes sense is that Semi
wasn't really expecting a battle. Maybe this was just supposed to be a
preliminary, "get-to-know-you" meeting so that Semi could take a look at
what she was up against? Yes, she had a big ole box of a'dam waiting,
but who's to say that they were supposed to be part of today's plan, or
they weren't just lying around in case the proverbial dog doo did hit
the fan and somehow Semi's crew came out on top? I think jumping to the
conclusion that Semi entered this situation expecting a OP brawl could
be a big mistake. Honestly, I think most of the evidence we see points
to her NOT believing that a battle is going to take place.

Honestly, I wonder if you read the same book as the rest of us... "the
only possible explanation that makes sense is that Semi wasn't really
expecting a battle." Puh-lease. Get real dude. The only possible
explanation is that Jordan wrote the scene incredibly badly. I really
think you need to lose the rose-tinted glasses.

Oliver

[Daniel Holm]

Post by Oliver Daniels

Post by Chris
Given the current information that we have regarding the entire fiasco,
I think the only possible explanation that makes sense is that Semi
wasn't really expecting a battle. Maybe this was just supposed to be a
preliminary, "get-to-know-you" meeting so that Semi could take a look at
what she was up against? Yes, she had a big ole box of a'dam waiting,
but who's to say that they were supposed to be part of today's plan, or
they weren't just lying around in case the proverbial dog doo did hit
the fan and somehow Semi's crew came out on top? I think jumping to the
conclusion that Semi entered this situation expecting a OP brawl could
be a big mistake. Honestly, I think most of the evidence we see points
to her NOT believing that a battle is going to take place.

Honestly, I wonder if you read the same book as the rest of us... "the
only possible explanation that makes sense is that Semi wasn't really
expecting a battle." Puh-lease. Get real dude. The only possible
explanation is that Jordan wrote the scene incredibly badly. I really
think you need to lose the rose-tinted glasses.

Maybe you should both stop using "The only possible explanation ..."
when it is clear that neither ARE "the only possible explanation(s)".

--Daniel Holm

[Chris]

Post by Daniel Holm

Post by Oliver Daniels

Post by Chris
Given the current information that we have regarding the entire fiasco,
I think the only possible explanation that makes sense is that Semi
wasn't really expecting a battle. Maybe this was just supposed to be a
preliminary, "get-to-know-you" meeting so that Semi could take a look at
what she was up against? Yes, she had a big ole box of a'dam waiting,
but who's to say that they were supposed to be part of today's plan, or
they weren't just lying around in case the proverbial dog doo did hit
the fan and somehow Semi's crew came out on top? I think jumping to the
conclusion that Semi entered this situation expecting a OP brawl could
be a big mistake. Honestly, I think most of the evidence we see points
to her NOT believing that a battle is going to take place.

Honestly, I wonder if you read the same book as the rest of us... "the
only possible explanation that makes sense is that Semi wasn't really
expecting a battle." Puh-lease. Get real dude. The only possible
explanation is that Jordan wrote the scene incredibly badly. I really
think you need to lose the rose-tinted glasses.

Maybe you should both stop using "The only possible explanation ..."
when it is clear that neither ARE "the only possible explanation(s)".
--Daniel Holm

In my original post, I didn't say it was "The only possible
explanation", I said it as "the only possible explanation that makes
sense", but in retrospect, I'll now add an additional qualifier: "the
only possible explanation that makes sense to me." Hell, let me add one
more: "the only possible explanation that makes sense to me assuming
that Jordan didn't totally hack the scene." I don't see what's so
patently unreasonable concerning the theory that Semi didn't intend to
duke it out at that exact moment. All the talk on the threads so far
has concerned the possibility that there were inverted traps or forkroot
tea or what have you stored within the house, but there is no evidence
pointing to this. Given what we know, there seem to be 4 explanations
that immediately come to mind:

1.) Semi planned an attack with just herself and the damane and thought
she'd catch Rand's party off balance. This seems pretty lame, even for
one of the Forsaken, as has been discussed ad nauseum in other places.

2.) Semi planned an attack with herself and the damane, but had some
extra firepower up her sleeve that we didn't get to see because the dog
doo hit the fan. This is pure speculation and has little supporting
evidence aside from the a'dam that were inconviently stored out of reach
in a box.

3.) Semi planned on being captured and succeeded. While this would seem
to be a very crafty move and probably the one with the most plot
potential, the whole trying to hit Rand with a fireball thing throws a
small wrench into that. If you're trying to get yourself captured by
someone, it just doesn't quite seem like a good idea to attempt to fry
them to a crisp. Again, this idea has been thrown around plenty elsewhere.

4.) Semi planned on making a sort of first contact with Rand to measure
him up and plan out her next move. This would certainly not be the
first time that a Forsaken has appeared to Rand in disguise without
trying to kill him right off the bat.

I still believe that, assuming RJ didn't butcher the scene (a rather
large leap of faith, I know, considering how Nynaeve's healing of the
Asha'man before Rand was handled), given the current evidence, this is
the most sensible scenario. My original intention was to put this idea
out on the thread because it seemed like everyone else was leaping past
it without giving it any thought. Are there any flaws in the logic of
the idea? (Again, we're assuming that Jordan still remembers how to write).

Chris

[p***@gmail.com]

Chris--

Are you suggesting that Semi had a long-term goal of "being" Tuon?
That her plan was similar to Lanfear or Asmodean as Kielle or Natael?
That might account for all of the loyal sul'dam present certainly, and
fit into why she was in a "fury" when her disguise unravelled.

Two small points:
The fireball should not have hit Rand. That should have been something
he countered; I don't know if Semi really thought she could fry him.

Also, the a'dam are something of a problem, given their location and
the possibilities she had brought. I am not of the forkroot or
inverted traps camp as there isn't really any significant evidence, and
I agree that an OP battle should have been something she would have
wanted to avoid, if for no reason than in revealing herself she might
well face everyone there because she picked people who weren't DF.
But, I just don't know how to account for the a'dam.

Where does that fall into your theory of long-term acquaintance?

Benjamin

[Jarvis Lowndes]

Spoiler Space
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(snip)
In my original post, I didn't say it was "The only possible
explanation", I said it as "the only possible explanation that makes
sense", but in retrospect, I'll now add an additional qualifier: "the
only possible explanation that makes sense to me." Hell, let me add one
more: "the only possible explanation that makes sense to me assuming
that Jordan didn't totally hack the scene." I don't see what's so
patently unreasonable concerning the theory that Semi didn't intend to
duke it out at that exact moment. All the talk on the threads so far
has concerned the possibility that there were inverted traps or forkroot
tea or what have you stored within the house, but there is no evidence
pointing to this.

Some soldiers search the place, and the only thing they find THAT DIDN'T
LOOK LIKE IT BELONGED" (emphasis mine) was the box o' adam. Would they know
that some herbs next to a teapot/kaf-pot is a bad thing?

Only thing that would support that - Bashere/someone mentions having tea
with DotNM somewhere, I thought (this is from memory, though)

Given what we know, there seem to be 4 explanations
1.) Semi planned an attack with just herself and the damane and thought
she'd catch Rand's party off balance. This seems pretty lame, even for
one of the Forsaken, as has been discussed ad nauseum in other places.
2.) Semi planned an attack with herself and the damane, but had some
extra firepower up her sleeve that we didn't get to see because the dog
doo hit the fan. This is pure speculation and has little supporting
evidence aside from the a'dam that were inconviently stored out of reach
in a box.
3.) Semi planned on being captured and succeeded. While this would seem
to be a very crafty move and probably the one with the most plot
potential, the whole trying to hit Rand with a fireball thing throws a
small wrench into that. If you're trying to get yourself captured by
someone, it just doesn't quite seem like a good idea to attempt to fry
them to a crisp. Again, this idea has been thrown around plenty elsewhere.

And, like someone else said, kinda risky given you could be immediately
stilled.

4.) Semi planned on making a sort of first contact with Rand to measure
him up and plan out her next move. This would certainly not be the
first time that a Forsaken has appeared to Rand in disguise without
trying to kill him right off the bat.

Nicely summed up.

I still believe that, assuming RJ didn't butcher the scene (a rather
large leap of faith, I know, considering how Nynaeve's healing of the
Asha'man before Rand was handled), given the current evidence, this is
the most sensible scenario.

Okay, what's the brouhaha over the Nynaeve/Rand thing? Two people ride in
next to each other. There's a battle. Two minutes later (or longer), these
two people are no longer next to each other. Is this really a suprise? And
no matter how protective Nynaeve is of Rand, I don't see her stepping over
someone else who needs healing just to get to him. Though, that is
something I'd expect of Cadsuane....

My original intention was to put this idea
out on the thread because it seemed like everyone else was leaping past
it without giving it any thought.

Personally, I'm of the forkroot option, myself. Maybe the adam were
supposed to be used, as well (although, in a box, that seems...
inconvenient). I don't think Semmy was counting on just surprise to take
them all out. But I can see her being arrogant enough to think she can take
out most of them (say, with Rand out of the way).

Are there any flaws in the logic of
the idea? (Again, we're assuming that Jordan still remembers how to write).

True.

- Jarvis

[Oliver Daniels]

Post by Daniel Holm
Maybe you should both stop using "The only possible explanation ..."
when it is clear that neither ARE "the only possible explanation(s)".
--Daniel Holm

I was being sarcastic.

Oliver

[Jim Phillips]

Post by zheemnookin
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Enh, talk about a horrendously anti-climactic battle scene. Worse, it
was not at all remotely "believable" (as these things go). Semi knew
full well that Rand would be at the meeting along with at least 5 or 6
others, and she knew damn well that the other 5 or 6 would be
channelers. Hell, we're reminded -- AGAIN! -- that she and Dem like to
chit-chat, and there are furiously strong hints that Dem has very
strong ties to the Black Tower -- so Semi must have known that Rand's
Ashaman weren't completely and utterly negligible.
And she, a Golden Age-r, must know what Novices know: It's pretty damn
hard to shield folks who have already embraced/seized the Source.

6 suldam + 6 damane + Semi = 13 female channelers. I don't claim
that Semi planned it that way, but it is an interesting coincidence.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Jim Phillips

Post by zheemnookin
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Enh, talk about a horrendously anti-climactic battle scene. Worse, it
was not at all remotely "believable" (as these things go). Semi knew
full well that Rand would be at the meeting along with at least 5 or 6
others, and she knew damn well that the other 5 or 6 would be
channelers. Hell, we're reminded -- AGAIN! -- that she and Dem like to
chit-chat, and there are furiously strong hints that Dem has very
strong ties to the Black Tower -- so Semi must have known that Rand's
Ashaman weren't completely and utterly negligible.
And she, a Golden Age-r, must know what Novices know: It's pretty damn
hard to shield folks who have already embraced/seized the Source.

6 suldam + 6 damane + Semi = 13 female channelers. I don't claim
that Semi planned it that way, but it is an interesting coincidence.

But the sul'dam have no training in linking or shielding.

[Cerra]

I just had the brilliant idea that the a'dam Semi had (the female
ones) are backwards. She wanted to be caught, and then leashed.
Because she would actually be in control of whomever put the braclet
on. And it's probably going to be Miss Forsaken Class Nyneave.

Thanks.

[Tim Ellingson]

Post by zheemnookin
S
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Enh, talk about a horrendously anti-climactic battle scene. Worse, it
was not at all remotely "believable" (as these things go). Semi knew
full well that Rand would be at the meeting along with at least 5 or 6
others, and she knew damn well that the other 5 or 6 would be
channelers. Hell, we're reminded -- AGAIN! -- that she and Dem like to
chit-chat, and there are furiously strong hints that Dem has very
strong ties to the Black Tower -- so Semi must have known that Rand's
Ashaman weren't completely and utterly negligible.
And she, a Golden Age-r, must know what Novices know: It's pretty damn
hard to shield folks who have already embraced/seized the Source.
What in the HELL was she thinking? How utterly stupid is she? And when
I say "utterly stupid," I mean UTTERLY dimwitted. She thought, what,
that she'd walk out in disguise, and then command her 5 or 6 damane to
shield everyone? The ONLY way that would work is with the extremely
thin possibility that (1) Rand and co. would NOT be filled with the
Power, or that (2) there was some sort of terangreal to prevent the
Good Guys from doing so.
And there was neither!
Hell, we don't even know if the damane are strong. And we're given
strong reason to suspect that they're not even darkfriends, given their
reactions. So Semi didn't even have them come prepared with inverted
shields are anything!
My gosh, what an utterly stupid, stupid plan. Can someone please tell
me anything that will lessen my incredulousness and this whole scene
and somehow remotely redeem Semi? (Who, by the way, managed to throw a
SINGLE FIREBALL at Rand? Egwene managed more when playing around with
the Accepted teacher in the classroom!)
Someone tell me I'm missing something. I don't mind looking like an
idiot who missed something obvious -- well, I do, but I'd rather look
like a careless reader/fan than the alternative: the utter, UTTER
incredible (and I mean that literally: INcredible) dumbing down of the
Forsaken.
Cheers.

Why is Egwene still in the WT? Perhaps Semi feels she can do more damage
from within. If the DO is to have any chance of still converting Rand, he
needs someone within to continue to break him down. I still see his
conversion as a viable goal for the DO.