Discussion:
Shaidar Haran idea
(too old to reply)
Francis Kahoy
2004-04-21 00:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Shaidar Haran sometimes speaks of himself almost as if he were the
Dark One. Of late, this has largely been taken to mean that he is the
DO's avatar in Randland - but I think there's an alternative
explanation. After all, this is behavior we've seen before.

Ba'alzamon did the exact same thing. So what if Shaidar Haran has
something of Ba'alzamon in him?

Consider - Ishamael was the Dark's MVP for 3,500+ years. During all
that time he kept the game going, engineered the Trolloc Wars,
Hawkwing's undoing, the Black Ajah, and all other sorts of mischief.
Yet when it comes right down to it, he was killed by a farmboy.

Granted, given all his previous accomplishments, it makes sense that
his boss would reward him with a promotion (Nae'blis) along with
resurrection, but some kind of barb or penalty for losing in the end
would be in keeping with the Great Lord's sense of humor.

So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.

Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.

This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
Quinn
2004-04-21 00:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francis Kahoy
Shaidar Haran sometimes speaks of himself almost as if he were the
Dark One. Of late, this has largely been taken to mean that he is the
DO's avatar in Randland - but I think there's an alternative
explanation. After all, this is behavior we've seen before.
Ba'alzamon did the exact same thing. So what if Shaidar Haran has
something of Ba'alzamon in him?
Consider - Ishamael was the Dark's MVP for 3,500+ years. During all
that time he kept the game going, engineered the Trolloc Wars,
Hawkwing's undoing, the Black Ajah, and all other sorts of mischief.
Yet when it comes right down to it, he was killed by a farmboy.
Granted, given all his previous accomplishments, it makes sense that
his boss would reward him with a promotion (Nae'blis) along with
resurrection, but some kind of barb or penalty for losing in the end
would be in keeping with the Great Lord's sense of humor.
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Interesting idea, but we haven't seen any evidence that the DO can split a
soul and put it in two different entities. Or that a soul has a "shadow" or
dark side or whatever, which can be separated.

A more likely and related "penalty" is that Ishy was recycled into Moridin,
and while he was put up as the Head Honcho, he still (maybe? we're not sure)
has to answer to, of all things, a freakin' Fade. It accomplishes the same
thing, being both a reward for his loyalty and a punishment for getting
smeared by a woolheaded sheepherder, and it also doesn't require an
assumption with no basis in anything we've read thus far.
Post by Francis Kahoy
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
We don't know if they're amicable or not, as we've never seen them together.
They may just be forced to work together. I would hardly call the
relationship Moridin has with the rest of the Forsaken as amicable, yet they
follow his lead. If the DO tells you to work with someone, you probably do
it, even if that someone is a sketchy big Fade dude, _especially_ if you
were just rewarded w/ the distinction of Last Guy to Die When the DO Remakes
the World.
Post by Francis Kahoy
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
Analogous only if Lews Therin and Rand physically split, an idea that I
think has been brought up before, but again there's no evidence that such a
thing can happen.

I actually like the idea of this, but there's no evidence that it could
happen.


-Q-
Raist
2004-04-21 02:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Francis Kahoy wrote:

<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam

And even to an extent
Mat/Dead Generals, and
Perrin/Wolf

Just something your post made me think of.

R.
jamie
2004-04-21 19:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raist
<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam
I leave it to either of you to explain how cutting an apple in half
is analagous to fusing two oranges together.
--
jamie (***@newsguy.com)

"There's a seeker born every minute."
Raist
2004-04-21 22:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by jamie
Post by Raist
<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam
I leave it to either of you to explain how cutting an apple in half
is analagous to fusing two oranges together.
You can't see any connection between the idea of one person in two bodies and
two people in one body? I'm not saying they are the same thing, but I think they
are similar ideas.

R.
Aaron Sanders
2004-04-22 16:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raist
Post by jamie
Post by Raist
<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam
I leave it to either of you to explain how cutting an apple in half
is analagous to fusing two oranges together.
You can't see any connection between the idea of one person in two bodies and
two people in one body? I'm not saying they are the same thing, but I think they
are similar ideas.
R.
Uhh, yeah...I..think I see it...maybe.... It's like "1/2" is kinda
similar to "2/1" or something. Is that it? =)

-Aaron
Raist
2004-04-22 18:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Sanders
Post by Raist
Post by jamie
Post by Raist
<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam
I leave it to either of you to explain how cutting an apple in half
is analagous to fusing two oranges together.
You can't see any connection between the idea of one person in two bodies and
two people in one body? I'm not saying they are the same thing, but I think they
are similar ideas.
R.
Uhh, yeah...I..think I see it...maybe.... It's like "1/2" is kinda
similar to "2/1" or something. Is that it? =)
-Aaron
Well, yes. In that case, the relationship is called "reciprocal".

R.
Paul
2004-04-22 21:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raist
Post by jamie
Post by Raist
<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam
I leave it to either of you to explain how cutting an apple in half
is analagous to fusing two oranges together.
You can't see any connection between the idea of one person in two bodies and
two people in one body? I'm not saying they are the same thing, but I think they
are similar ideas.
So, if in some freak experiment, scientists managed to functionally
put two brains into one human body, you are proposing that that would
be proof that it would be possible to take one person's brain and use
it to animate two bodies?
Auwerda1
2004-04-22 22:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Raist
Post by jamie
Post by Raist
<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam
I leave it to either of you to explain how cutting an apple in half
is analagous to fusing two oranges together.
You can't see any connection between the idea of one person in two bodies and
two people in one body? I'm not saying they are the same thing, but I think they
are similar ideas.
So, if in some freak experiment, scientists managed to functionally
put two brains into one human body, you are proposing that that would
be proof that it would be possible to take one person's brain and use
it to animate two bodies?
Well in a Wrinkle In Time wasn't there a brain controlling an entire planet
of jumpropers and ball bouncers?
Loial
2004-04-30 23:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raist
Post by Paul
Post by Raist
Post by jamie
Post by Raist
<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but
also
Post by Paul
Post by Raist
Post by jamie
Post by Raist
Post by Francis Kahoy
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam
I leave it to either of you to explain how cutting an apple in half
is analagous to fusing two oranges together.
You can't see any connection between the idea of one person in two
bodies and
Post by Paul
Post by Raist
two people in one body? I'm not saying they are the same thing, but I
think they
Post by Paul
Post by Raist
are similar ideas.
So, if in some freak experiment, scientists managed to functionally
put two brains into one human body, you are proposing that that would
be proof that it would be possible to take one person's brain and use
it to animate two bodies?
Well in a Wrinkle In Time wasn't there a brain controlling an entire planet
of jumpropers and ball bouncers?
Dang, I read that book what feels like half an eternity ago. I do
believe you're right.
Raist
2004-04-23 03:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Raist
Post by jamie
Post by Raist
<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam
I leave it to either of you to explain how cutting an apple in half
is analagous to fusing two oranges together.
You can't see any connection between the idea of one person in two bodies and
two people in one body? I'm not saying they are the same thing, but I think they
are similar ideas.
So, if in some freak experiment, scientists managed to functionally
put two brains into one human body, you are proposing that that would
be proof that it would be possible to take one person's brain and use
it to animate two bodies?
No, I am proposing nothing of the sort. I simply said the ideas are related. Any
thing else you infer is in your own imagination.

R.
p***@yahoo.com
2004-04-21 19:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raist
And even to an extent
Mat/Dead Generals, and
Perrin/Wolf
Just something your post made me think of.
Except that Mat's memories from the dead generals and heroes don't
seem to be people so much as memories. Frankly, they seem similar to
real reincarnation memories.

And Perrin simply has a telepathic connection to the wolves, not a
wolf living inside his head.
Raist
2004-04-21 22:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by Raist
And even to an extent
Mat/Dead Generals, and
Perrin/Wolf
Just something your post made me think of.
Except that Mat's memories from the dead generals and heroes don't
seem to be people so much as memories. Frankly, they seem similar to
real reincarnation memories.
And Perrin simply has a telepathic connection to the wolves, not a
wolf living inside his head.
... which is why they were tacked on the end as an afterthought.

R
Ryan don't call me gunga MacIntosh
2004-04-22 23:49:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by Raist
And even to an extent
Mat/Dead Generals, and
Perrin/Wolf
Just something your post made me think of.
Except that Mat's memories from the dead generals and heroes don't
seem to be people so much as memories. Frankly, they seem similar to
real reincarnation memories.
And Perrin simply has a telepathic connection to the wolves, not a
wolf living inside his head.
Nontheless, having a a part of your head that is not your own, or is
alien to you is a theme throughout the series. Lets not get hung up on
specifics, themes are supposed to be broad and general.
Raist
2004-04-23 03:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan don't call me gunga MacIntosh
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by Raist
And even to an extent
Mat/Dead Generals, and
Perrin/Wolf
Just something your post made me think of.
Except that Mat's memories from the dead generals and heroes don't
seem to be people so much as memories. Frankly, they seem similar to
real reincarnation memories.
And Perrin simply has a telepathic connection to the wolves, not a
wolf living inside his head.
Nontheless, having a a part of your head that is not your own, or is
alien to you is a theme throughout the series. Lets not get hung up on
specifics, themes are supposed to be broad and general.
Thank you.

R.
Ryan don't call me gunga MacIntosh
2004-04-23 22:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raist
Post by Ryan don't call me gunga MacIntosh
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by Raist
And even to an extent
Mat/Dead Generals, and
Perrin/Wolf
Just something your post made me think of.
Except that Mat's memories from the dead generals and heroes don't
seem to be people so much as memories. Frankly, they seem similar to
real reincarnation memories.
And Perrin simply has a telepathic connection to the wolves, not a
wolf living inside his head.
Nontheless, having a a part of your head that is not your own, or is
alien to you is a theme throughout the series. Lets not get hung up on
specifics, themes are supposed to be broad and general.
Thank you.
any time, my hour-glass pupiled compadre

--
RM
Steve Craig
2004-04-25 18:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by Raist
And even to an extent
Mat/Dead Generals, and
Perrin/Wolf
Just something your post made me think of.
Except that Mat's memories from the dead generals and heroes don't
seem to be people so much as memories. Frankly, they seem similar to
real reincarnation memories.
And Perrin simply has a telepathic connection to the wolves, not a
wolf living inside his head.
You seem to forget that Perrin is doing his best dealing with the
metaphorical "inner beast", in this case personified by the wolf, and
symbolized by the half-moon axe he carries. The other side of him is
personified by the blacksmith, and symbolized by the forge hammer.

Are you saying that struggling against duality isn't a major theme of
Perrin's character??

If so, you've obviously missed something along the way.

Steve Craig
Tim Bruening
2010-04-01 22:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Spoilers for the Gathering Storm.
Post by Raist
<snip>
Post by Francis Kahoy
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
Which also helps explain the apparently amicable relations between
Moridin and Shaidar Haran, given that they are (were?) kinda the same
person.
This also has the additional advantage of being somewhat analogous to
Rand's situation. Robert Jordan's fixation on balance and all.
I don't know about SH, but we do see that theme cropping up a bit...
Rand/LTT
Fain/Mordeth/etc.
Luc/Isam
And even to an extent
Mat/Dead Generals, and
Perrin/Wolf
Just something your post made me think of.
Possibly Aviendha/Ilyena in Towers of Midnight. Late in tGS, Rand realized
that Ilyena may live again, just as LTT is living again! Meanwhile,
Aviendha just departed for Rhudean to experience the lives of her ancestors.
Rodney McNally
2004-04-23 00:04:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francis Kahoy
Shaidar Haran sometimes speaks of himself almost as if he were the
Dark One. Of late, this has largely been taken to mean that he is the
DO's avatar in Randland - but I think there's an alternative
explanation. After all, this is behavior we've seen before.
Ba'alzamon did the exact same thing. So what if Shaidar Haran has
something of Ba'alzamon in him?
Somewhere around the end of the TGH or TDR Verin recalls a document that
decribed Ba'alzamon as a name within in names and concludes that it's saying
that Ba'alzamon was nothing more then Ishy bonded or merged with DO. I
couldn't find the exact references but there was more evidence of the nature
of Ishy's relationship with the DO. I think the evidence is clear that
Ba'alzamon was as much if not more the DO as it was Ishmael.

I think it is more likely that Shadar Haran's manifestations of Ba'alzamon
like traits is evidence of a Fade-DO merge then a Fade-Ishmael merge.
Post by Francis Kahoy
Consider - Ishamael was the Dark's MVP for 3,500+ years. During all
that time he kept the game going, engineered the Trolloc Wars,
Hawkwing's undoing, the Black Ajah, and all other sorts of mischief.
Yet when it comes right down to it, he was killed by a farmboy.
Granted, given all his previous accomplishments, it makes sense that
his boss would reward him with a promotion (Nae'blis) along with
resurrection, but some kind of barb or penalty for losing in the end
would be in keeping with the Great Lord's sense of humor.
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
I Think that not being Ba'alzamon i.e. not being in direct contact with the
DO would be ample punishment. Even without it being a punishment I think
there are a lot of good reasons why the DO would not or could not resume the
Ba'alzamon relationship with the ressurected Moridin. More importantly is
why make the Super-Fade if it's just a way to punish Ishy, what purpose does
he serve?
Daniel Holm
2004-04-23 11:02:43 UTC
Permalink
"Rodney McNally" <***@iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:<***@bnews-brisbane>...
*snip*
Post by Rodney McNally
I Think that not being Ba'alzamon i.e. not being in direct contact with the
DO would be ample punishment. Even without it being a punishment I think
there are a lot of good reasons why the DO would not or could not resume the
Ba'alzamon relationship with the ressurected Moridin. More importantly is
why make the Super-Fade if it's just a way to punish Ishy, what purpose does
he serve?
"Direct contact"? "Ba'alzamon relationship"? What are you talking
about? The only sort of direct contact there is between Ishydin and
the DO is the True Power, and he has that well in hand once more.

--Daniel Holm
Jason
2004-04-24 05:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rodney McNally
Post by Francis Kahoy
Shaidar Haran sometimes speaks of himself almost as if he were the
Dark One. Of late, this has largely been taken to mean that he is the
DO's avatar in Randland - but I think there's an alternative
explanation. After all, this is behavior we've seen before.
Ba'alzamon did the exact same thing. So what if Shaidar Haran has
something of Ba'alzamon in him?
Somewhere around the end of the TGH or TDR Verin recalls a document that
decribed Ba'alzamon as a name within in names and concludes that it's saying
that Ba'alzamon was nothing more then Ishy bonded or merged with DO. I
couldn't find the exact references but there was more evidence of the nature
of Ishy's relationship with the DO. I think the evidence is clear that
Ba'alzamon was as much if not more the DO as it was Ishmael.
I think it is more likely that Shadar Haran's manifestations of Ba'alzamon
like traits is evidence of a Fade-DO merge then a Fade-Ishmael merge.
Post by Francis Kahoy
Consider - Ishamael was the Dark's MVP for 3,500+ years. During all
that time he kept the game going, engineered the Trolloc Wars,
Hawkwing's undoing, the Black Ajah, and all other sorts of mischief.
Yet when it comes right down to it, he was killed by a farmboy.
Granted, given all his previous accomplishments, it makes sense that
his boss would reward him with a promotion (Nae'blis) along with
resurrection, but some kind of barb or penalty for losing in the end
would be in keeping with the Great Lord's sense of humor.
So here's my idea: While Ishy was rewarded and resurrected into
Moridin, he was also punished/given warning by having a part of his
soul - or a shadow of it - formed into the shape of Superfade. It
would be kinda him... only not. A dark warning and a penalty, but also
one that the Dark One uses for his own purposes.
I Think that not being Ba'alzamon i.e. not being in direct contact with the
DO would be ample punishment. Even without it being a punishment I think
there are a lot of good reasons why the DO would not or could not resume the
Ba'alzamon relationship with the ressurected Moridin. More importantly is
why make the Super-Fade if it's just a way to punish Ishy, what purpose does
he serve?
Wasn't Ba'alzamon just the Trolloc name for Ishamael? He was still
Ishamael when dealing with other human beings. He might still be
called Ba'alzamon among Trollocs.

I just had a thought while reading this. Graendal (I think)
recollected Aginor saying that Fades were out of phase. Maybe that's
what makes Shaidar useful.
Matt Korte
2004-04-25 02:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason
Wasn't Ba'alzamon just the Trolloc name for Ishamael? He was still
Ishamael when dealing with other human beings. He might still be
called Ba'alzamon among Trollocs.
I just had a thought while reading this. Graendal (I think)
recollected Aginor saying that Fades were out of phase. Maybe that's
what makes Shaidar useful.
I've said it before: Ismael IS SH. They are one in the same. As
Ishy uses more of the TP, he undergoes changes. He is slowly
transforming into SH on a permanent basis. You never see them
together (even the scene where SH throws Mog through the
wall to Mordin, they aren't seen together). Who goes to spy
on Sam? One time Mordin, one time SH. Really it was the same
person. Right now he spends only part of the time as SH. The
rest as Mordin. That's part of the weakness SH refers to. By
the end, only SH will be present. This explains why they work
so closely together, why one can be the Naeblis and the other
the Hand. They are the same person.

MK
Bill heman
2004-04-25 23:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Korte
Post by Jason
Wasn't Ba'alzamon just the Trolloc name for Ishamael? He was still
Ishamael when dealing with other human beings. He might still be
called Ba'alzamon among Trollocs.
I just had a thought while reading this. Graendal (I think)
recollected Aginor saying that Fades were out of phase. Maybe that's
what makes Shaidar useful.
I've said it before: Ismael IS SH. They are one in the same. As
Ishy uses more of the TP, he undergoes changes. He is slowly
transforming into SH on a permanent basis. You never see them
together (even the scene where SH throws Mog through the
wall to Mordin, they aren't seen together). Who goes to spy
on Sam? One time Mordin, one time SH. Really it was the same
person. Right now he spends only part of the time as SH. The
rest as Mordin. That's part of the weakness SH refers to. By
the end, only SH will be present. This explains why they work
so closely together, why one can be the Naeblis and the other
the Hand. They are the same person.
MK
You mean kinda like Luc & Isam and how they can change back and forth
between bodies, except they aren't morphing together that we know
of...
-bill
Laura
2004-04-26 00:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Korte
Post by Jason
Wasn't Ba'alzamon just the Trolloc name for Ishamael? He was still
Ishamael when dealing with other human beings. He might still be
called Ba'alzamon among Trollocs.
I just had a thought while reading this. Graendal (I think)
recollected Aginor saying that Fades were out of phase. Maybe that's
what makes Shaidar useful.
I've said it before: Ismael IS SH. They are one in the same. As
Ishy uses more of the TP, he undergoes changes. He is slowly
transforming into SH on a permanent basis. You never see them
together (even the scene where SH throws Mog through the
wall to Mordin, they aren't seen together). Who goes to spy
on Sam? One time Mordin, one time SH. Really it was the same
person. Right now he spends only part of the time as SH. The
rest as Mordin. That's part of the weakness SH refers to. By
the end, only SH will be present. This explains why they work
so closely together, why one can be the Naeblis and the other
the Hand. They are the same person.
MK
Strange thing is, I think your idea is actually plausible. *gasp*
I like it. That would rather effectively explain where SH came
from, and also kind of fits in with Luc/Isam (one body with two
different personalities).
Roland
2004-04-28 04:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Laura
Post by Matt Korte
Post by Jason
Wasn't Ba'alzamon just the Trolloc name for Ishamael? He was still
Ishamael when dealing with other human beings. He might still be
called Ba'alzamon among Trollocs.
I just had a thought while reading this. Graendal (I think)
recollected Aginor saying that Fades were out of phase. Maybe that's
what makes Shaidar useful.
I've said it before: Ismael IS SH. They are one in the same. As
Ishy uses more of the TP, he undergoes changes. He is slowly
transforming into SH on a permanent basis. You never see them
together (even the scene where SH throws Mog through the
wall to Mordin, they aren't seen together). Who goes to spy
on Sam? One time Mordin, one time SH. Really it was the same
person. Right now he spends only part of the time as SH. The
rest as Mordin. That's part of the weakness SH refers to. By
the end, only SH will be present. This explains why they work
so closely together, why one can be the Naeblis and the other
the Hand. They are the same person.
MK
Strange thing is, I think your idea is actually plausible. *gasp*
I like it. That would rather effectively explain where SH came
from, and also kind of fits in with Luc/Isam (one body with two
different personalities).
...as well as a neat explanation for why SH does nothing but swat naughty Forsaken.

-roland
AcornArmy
2004-04-29 18:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Korte
I've said it before: Ismael IS SH. They are one in the same. As
Ishy uses more of the TP, he undergoes changes. He is slowly
transforming into SH on a permanent basis. You never see them
together (even the scene where SH throws Mog through the
wall to Mordin, they aren't seen together). Who goes to spy
on Sam? One time Mordin, one time SH. Really it was the same
person. Right now he spends only part of the time as SH. The
rest as Mordin. That's part of the weakness SH refers to. By
the end, only SH will be present. This explains why they work
so closely together, why one can be the Naeblis and the other
the Hand. They are the same person.
MK
I tend to think there's something to this idea, for one reason, really: Why
else would Shaidar Haran make Moghedien keep her eyes closed? He grabs her
by the hair and runs her forward, head first, so that when he lets go she
staggers forward for another ten steps. Far enough away that she wouldn't
be able to tell what SH was doing. Immediately afterward, Moridin's voice
tells her she can open her eyes.
Roland
2004-04-30 03:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by AcornArmy
Post by Matt Korte
I've said it before: Ismael IS SH. They are one in the same. As
Ishy uses more of the TP, he undergoes changes. He is slowly
transforming into SH on a permanent basis. You never see them
together (even the scene where SH throws Mog through the
wall to Mordin, they aren't seen together). Who goes to spy
on Sam? One time Mordin, one time SH. Really it was the same
person. Right now he spends only part of the time as SH. The
rest as Mordin. That's part of the weakness SH refers to. By
the end, only SH will be present. This explains why they work
so closely together, why one can be the Naeblis and the other
the Hand. They are the same person.
MK
I tend to think there's something to this idea, for one reason, really: Why
else would Shaidar Haran make Moghedien keep her eyes closed? He grabs her
by the hair and runs her forward, head first, so that when he lets go she
staggers forward for another ten steps. Far enough away that she wouldn't
be able to tell what SH was doing. Immediately afterward, Moridin's voice
tells her she can open her eyes.
Yeah that scene always weirded me out. The only way it makes sense is
if they are the same person, one using the Mirror of Mists, or
different aspects of a whole, a la Luc-Isam.

-roland
Loial
2004-04-30 23:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland
Post by AcornArmy
Post by Matt Korte
I've said it before: Ismael IS SH. They are one in the same. As
Ishy uses more of the TP, he undergoes changes. He is slowly
transforming into SH on a permanent basis. You never see them
together (even the scene where SH throws Mog through the
wall to Mordin, they aren't seen together). Who goes to spy
on Sam? One time Mordin, one time SH. Really it was the same
person. Right now he spends only part of the time as SH. The
rest as Mordin. That's part of the weakness SH refers to. By
the end, only SH will be present. This explains why they work
so closely together, why one can be the Naeblis and the other
the Hand. They are the same person.
MK
I tend to think there's something to this idea, for one reason, really: Why
else would Shaidar Haran make Moghedien keep her eyes closed? He grabs her
by the hair and runs her forward, head first, so that when he lets go she
staggers forward for another ten steps. Far enough away that she wouldn't
be able to tell what SH was doing. Immediately afterward, Moridin's voice
tells her she can open her eyes.
Yeah that scene always weirded me out. The only way it makes sense is
if they are the same person, one using the Mirror of Mists, or
different aspects of a whole, a la Luc-Isam.
-roland
Just had a looney idea.

Remember how RJ said in his answer of the week that the DO likes to
conserve his resources? Well, Ishydin is probably his best resource,
and he uses the TP all willy-nilly, which puts him well on the path to
his own destruction. You would think the DO would want to preserve
Ishy and therefore he ought to cut him off from the TP. What if this
transformation to SH (if that's what's going on) is his way of
preventing the loss of his best resource, while still allowing use of
the TP?
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