Discussion:
Embers - Spoilers
(too old to reply)
Ash
2005-07-22 08:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
What is Suroth up to? Who has been impersonating Tuon? It seems very
much like she would not have a pretend Tuon, so what was the arrangement
with Rand? Tuon as Empress, interesting, I guess that removes the need
for Rand to go there for the prophecy (either version) to be resolved)

Nice to see progress in the BA hunt, even if it is only two more, it's
looking more and more like a race between Alviarin and the others

So, the woman on the cover was Galina. Not sure if the male was Neald or
Arganda though

Egwene, I assume it was Nichola who betrayed her, she is in for some
beatings, I was surprised that Elaida didn't want to still her though.
Half succeeded in the chain

I thought it moved things along well, a sense of things happening and
some things that really shocked me
André Fürstenrecht
2005-07-22 09:08:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:36:11 +0100, Ash
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
What is Suroth up to? Who has been impersonating Tuon? It seems very
much like she would not have a pretend Tuon, so what was the arrangement
with Rand? Tuon as Empress, interesting, I guess that removes the need
for Rand to go there for the prophecy (either version) to be resolved)
Nice to see progress in the BA hunt, even if it is only two more, it's
looking more and more like a race between Alviarin and the others
So, the woman on the cover was Galina. Not sure if the male was Neald or
Arganda though
Egwene, I assume it was Nichola who betrayed her, she is in for some
beatings, I was surprised that Elaida didn't want to still her though.
Half succeeded in the chain
I thought it moved things along well, a sense of things happening and
some things that really shocked me
Now this was a prologue worth forking out for. Action, plans really
taking shape, some curveballs. Real setup for the current book.
Something we haven't seen in a long time. It's like we finally got
'our' Robert Jordan back and the imposter taking his place from ACoS
through to CoT has been banished.

On the actual plots all of them (with the possible exception of the
Egwene section though even that wasn't bad) actually pushed the story
along. No pages of sniffing, descriptions of silk dresses or - god
forbid - Elayne in a bath or complaining about her pregnancy.

Though Egwene again shows her stupidity. It certainly doesn't imply
that she's going to tell Siuan her novice quarters position then have
her tell Bryne to gather half a dozen men and two or three Aes Sedai
sworn to Egwene to open a gateway, kill the Aes Sedai shielding her
and retreat back through it. Imagine the chaos it'd cause if Elaida
lost her prisoner out from underneath her ? Or even if she balks as
usual at killing the tower AS, then have Siuan ready with half a dozen
sisters, be waiting the following night in the world of dreams for
Egwene's word and upon it, have one open the gateway and the others
immediately slam the shields on those guarding sisters whilst the men
rush in and physically throw them through the gateway.

Still other then Egwene's expected brainlessness I'd give it a solid 8
out of 10. And rate it the best of the prologues since at least LoC.
Possibly the best since TDR or TSR.

André
Ash
2005-07-22 09:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by André Fürstenrecht
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:36:11 +0100, Ash
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
What is Suroth up to? Who has been impersonating Tuon? It seems very
much like she would not have a pretend Tuon, so what was the arrangement
with Rand? Tuon as Empress, interesting, I guess that removes the need
for Rand to go there for the prophecy (either version) to be resolved)
Nice to see progress in the BA hunt, even if it is only two more, it's
looking more and more like a race between Alviarin and the others
So, the woman on the cover was Galina. Not sure if the male was Neald or
Arganda though
Egwene, I assume it was Nichola who betrayed her, she is in for some
beatings, I was surprised that Elaida didn't want to still her though.
Half succeeded in the chain
I thought it moved things along well, a sense of things happening and
some things that really shocked me
Now this was a prologue worth forking out for. Action, plans really
taking shape, some curveballs. Real setup for the current book.
Something we haven't seen in a long time. It's like we finally got
'our' Robert Jordan back and the imposter taking his place from ACoS
through to CoT has been banished.
On the actual plots all of them (with the possible exception of the
Egwene section though even that wasn't bad) actually pushed the story
along. No pages of sniffing, descriptions of silk dresses or - god
forbid - Elayne in a bath or complaining about her pregnancy.
Though Egwene again shows her stupidity. It certainly doesn't imply
that she's going to tell Siuan her novice quarters position then have
her tell Bryne to gather half a dozen men and two or three Aes Sedai
sworn to Egwene to open a gateway, kill the Aes Sedai shielding her
and retreat back through it. Imagine the chaos it'd cause if Elaida
lost her prisoner out from underneath her ? Or even if she balks as
usual at killing the tower AS, then have Siuan ready with half a dozen
sisters, be waiting the following night in the world of dreams for
Egwene's word and upon it, have one open the gateway and the others
immediately slam the shields on those guarding sisters whilst the men
rush in and physically throw them through the gateway.
Still other then Egwene's expected brainlessness I'd give it a solid 8
out of 10. And rate it the best of the prologues since at least LoC.
Possibly the best since TDR or TSR.
I would think that Travelling to her Novice quarters would be dangerous
- they could open the gateway over Egwene. Simply letting Siaun know
would be enough, though I want to read it again, se what I misssed.
I actually spoke out loud "oh my god" when I read that the entire
Seanchan Royal family had been murdered and that Tuon was now Empress
Antonio Contreras
2005-07-22 09:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
I actually spoke out loud "oh my god" when I read that the entire
Seanchan Royal family had been murdered and that Tuon was now Empress
Now that's a spoiler. Obviously my fault for reading a thread with
spoilers in its name. I would be sad if it was not for the fact that I
usually peek 100~200 pages forward when I'm reading a novel, so I'm
pretty used to self-imposed spoilers. For example, I read how the One
Ring was going to be destroyed when Sam and Frodo were eating rabbit in
the forest...

Anyway, Tuon becaming Empress is a great, great, great plot advance.
Hope that the novel copes with our (growing) expectations.
Ash
2005-07-22 09:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Spoilers back in, though I doubt people will read this far down unless
they want them
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Ash
I actually spoke out loud "oh my god" when I read that the entire
Seanchan Royal family had been murdered and that Tuon was now Empress
Now that's a spoiler. Obviously my fault for reading a thread with
spoilers in its name. I would be sad if it was not for the fact that I
usually peek 100~200 pages forward when I'm reading a novel, so I'm
pretty used to self-imposed spoilers. For example, I read how the One
Ring was going to be destroyed when Sam and Frodo were eating rabbit in
the forest...
Anyway, Tuon becaming Empress is a great, great, great plot advance.
Hope that the novel copes with our (growing) expectations.
Well, unless Suroth gets to her first, Semihirge wants Tuon dead as well
(it seems she killed them, it is her that tells Suroth). She does it
disguised of course.
Kazimír Doležal
2005-07-22 15:20:13 UTC
Permalink
FUCKING SPOILER SPACE, ASSHOLE
Post by Antonio Contreras
Now that's a spoiler.
Screw you.
Ash
2005-07-22 09:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
What is Suroth up to? Who has been impersonating Tuon? It seems very
much like she would not have a pretend Tuon, so what was the arrangement
with Rand? Tuon as Empress, interesting, I guess that removes the need
for Rand to go there for the prophecy (either version) to be resolved)
Suroth is not responsible for the rumour of Tuon at a Goldsmiths and she
doens't have a fake Tuon at this point
Post by Ash
Nice to see progress in the BA hunt, even if it is only two more, it's
looking more and more like a race between Alviarin and the others
Marris Thornhill is one of them
Post by Ash
So, the woman on the cover was Galina. Not sure if the male was Neald or
Arganda though
Egwene, I assume it was Nichola who betrayed her, she is in for some
beatings, I was surprised that Elaida didn't want to still her though.
Half succeeded in the chain
Er, the Northern half, Leanne was taken partway through, though they
didn't see the glow, so they kow it can be disguised.
Post by Ash
I thought it moved things along well, a sense of things happening and
some things that really shocked me
Oh yeah, and Egwene has had a dream that the Seanchan will attack and
harm the Tower, which I thought was clear, but I recall some people
doubted this.
Mark Erikson
2005-07-22 12:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
Cut out, because these aren't spoilers.

I'm disappointed this hasn't turned up on any torrent sites yet. These
prologues are one area where I have no qualms _at all_ about flitting
copyright law.

-Mark Erikson
Ash
2005-07-22 14:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Erikson
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
Cut out, because these aren't spoilers.
how is Tuon being the Emprss not a spoiler?
Kazimír Doležal
2005-07-22 15:20:44 UTC
Permalink
SPOILER SPACE
Post by Ash
how is Tuon being the Emprss not a spoiler?
it IS. FOR THE LOVE OF FUCKING GOD
Mark Erikson
2005-07-22 15:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Erikson
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
Cut out, because these aren't spoilers.
how is SPOILER not a spoiler?
Although I don't know the point of changing that now.

I was not referring to what lay below the spoiler space, but to what I
wrote, which had nothing to do with the content of the prologue.

-Mark Erikson
James Hammons
2005-07-22 14:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Erikson
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
Cut out, because these aren't spoilers.
I'm disappointed this hasn't turned up on any torrent sites yet. These
prologues are one area where I have no qualms _at all_ about flitting
copyright law.
-Mark Erikson
I don't understand. Where did these spoilers come from?

--
James Hammons
Ash
2005-07-22 14:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Hammons
Post by Mark Erikson
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
Cut out, because these aren't spoilers.
I'm disappointed this hasn't turned up on any torrent sites yet. These
prologues are one area where I have no qualms _at all_ about flitting
copyright law.
-Mark Erikson
I don't understand. Where did these spoilers come from?
the prologue has been released as an e-book
Palpie
2005-07-22 13:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Half succeeded in the chain
Ok can someone explain this to me. I've never seen what the point of
turning the chains from iron into curlendar is? Doesn't that just give TV
an even better defense against attack from boats? It doesn't stop the
chains from being raised and lowered does it, and now a ship with and AS on
it can't have her break the chain with the power to get past them.
David Chapman
2005-07-22 13:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Palpie
Ok can someone explain this to me. I've never seen what the point of
turning the chains from iron into curlendar is? Doesn't that just give TV
an even better defense against attack from boats? It doesn't stop the
chains from being raised and lowered does it,
Yes, it does. If you'd been paying attention, you'd know that the
conversion process fuses separate parts together.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Brian Roux
2005-07-22 16:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by Palpie
Ok can someone explain this to me. I've never seen what the point of
turning the chains from iron into curlendar is? Doesn't that just give TV
an even better defense against attack from boats? It doesn't stop the
chains from being raised and lowered does it,
Yes, it does. If you'd been paying attention, you'd know that the
conversion process fuses separate parts together.
And here's the relative passage (plus spoiler space)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
From the prologue pg127:

"We'll see how clear it is in the morning, " she said slowly, "when
they let down the half that's still iron. The rest of it stands out
stiff like, well, like a bar of cuendillar. Myself, I doubt any but
smaller vessels will be able to cross."

~ Brian
Palpie
2005-07-24 10:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by Palpie
Ok can someone explain this to me. I've never seen what the point of
turning the chains from iron into curlendar is? Doesn't that just give TV
an even better defense against attack from boats? It doesn't stop the
chains from being raised and lowered does it,
Yes, it does. If you'd been paying attention, you'd know that the
conversion process fuses separate parts together.
Ok I missed that. Of course I think I miss alot in Egwene chapters.
Mitchell Swan
2005-07-22 15:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Palpie
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Half succeeded in the chain
Ok can someone explain this to me. I've never seen what the point of
turning the chains from iron into curlendar is? Doesn't that just give TV
an even better defense against attack from boats? It doesn't stop the
chains from being raised and lowered does it, and now a ship with and AS on
it can't have her break the chain with the power to get past them.
Yes it does stop them. Turning two pieces of iron that touch into
cuendillar fuses them together into one pice.

The two massive chains are now one and a half pieces of immovable
cuendillar.

Southharbor is now inacessible to supply boats. Northharbor is
inacessible to none but the smallest supply boats.

Tar Valon is now effectively cut off from supplies. Waiting for
starvation can now begin.
N***@gmail.com
2005-07-22 16:08:14 UTC
Permalink
SPOILER SPACE

20
19
18
17
16
15
14
13
12
11
10
09
08
07
06
05
04
03
02
01
00

SPOILER SPACE ENDS - Beware of Spoilers

After rereading the prologue, the conversation between Suroth and
Semirhage gave me the distinct impression that Semirhage created the
rumors of a fake Tuon who is being aided by deathwatch guards in order
to provide cover for and a reason to hunt down Tuons deathwatch guards.


Since Semirhage wants Tuon dead now, a rumored fake Tuon is perfect
cover for Suroth to try and find and kill the real Tuon. From the
prologue I get the impression there is no actual fake Tuon of the type
that could meet with Rand.

As for Egwene, her part ends with her about to meet with Siune in the
dreamworld. As Elaida has decided Egwene is to be a novice again,
Egwene is stuck in the tower.

So my speculation for the rest of the book is that since Egwene isn't
going to be stilled or put to death, any possible gateway rescue they
come up with they will want to take some time to plan right. In the
meantime, what will Egwene do with her time? I'm sure it will involve
contacting her factions sisters in the tower, who of course are now
part of the Black Ajah hunt. After she makes contact with them, maybe
she won't even want to be rescued anymore. This speculation fits with
Egwene's last thoughts in the prologue which are along the lines of her
taking the fight to the heart of the Tower.

As for the Blak Ajah hunt in the tower, they reached a dead end in the
chain of Blacks knowing other Blacks. Now all the other Blacks they
know about are out of the tower. Hmm... where could they be? With the
rebels perhaps? And how could Egwene fit in here :)

When Suroth orders 9 in 10 raken to Tarabon, they mention how they need
all the To'Raken. Another hint at a strike on the tower anyone?

-Joseph Slonimsky
Ash
2005-07-22 16:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kazimír Doležal
SPOILER SPACE
20
19
18
17
16
15
14
13
12
11
10
09
08
07
06
05
04
03
02
01
00
SPOILER SPACE ENDS - Beware of Spoilers
After rereading the prologue, the conversation between Suroth and
Semirhage gave me the distinct impression that Semirhage created the
rumors of a fake Tuon who is being aided by deathwatch guards in order
to provide cover for and a reason to hunt down Tuons deathwatch guards.
Since Semirhage wants Tuon dead now, a rumored fake Tuon is perfect
cover for Suroth to try and find and kill the real Tuon. From the
prologue I get the impression there is no actual fake Tuon of the type
that could meet with Rand.
Good idea, that didn't occur to me, but that does make me wonder if she
changes her mind, or if Logain and Bahsere were lied to
Neil Anderson
2005-07-22 17:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Spoiler space/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
Working my way through the prologue just now. One interesting noisette
of information is one of the Red sisters in the Tower reports that
three sisters from her Ajah died at Dumai Wells. All that we knew
previously was that ONE of the dead sisters buried at the Wells was a
Red - Laigan Arnault (sp?), who is mentioned somewhere.

I noted that the phrase used in Embers was "three of the dead sisters
were from [the Red] Ajah". Previously we were told there were ONLY
three dead sisters after the battle. Subsequently we learn in Embers
that Galina is being mistakenly included in the number of Red dead.
Thus, we can assume that there is one Red and one other non-Red buried
beside Laigan. So that is one more microscopic step towards working
out the breakdown of the entire Cairhien delegation to Rand, and
figuring out who survived and who did not.

Neil Anderson
r***@gmail.com
2005-07-22 18:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
Spoiler space/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
Working my way through the prologue just now. One interesting noisette
of information is one of the Red sisters in the Tower reports that
three sisters from her Ajah died at Dumai Wells. All that we knew
previously was that ONE of the dead sisters buried at the Wells was a
Red - Laigan Arnault (sp?), who is mentioned somewhere.
I noted that the phrase used in Embers was "three of the dead sisters
were from [the Red] Ajah". Previously we were told there were ONLY
three dead sisters after the battle.
At a recent signing, RJ named one of them as Amira Moselle, the
erstwhile Sitter and Keeper.


--
RMB
Neil Anderson
2005-07-22 19:07:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
At a recent signing, RJ named one of them as Amira Moselle, the
erstwhile Sitter and Keeper.
Context was not quite clear Rich - was Amira one of the dead Reds, or
as a member of the Cairhien embassy? I remember that name being
bruited about in connection with the revised question of the week
response to "Was Elaida a Sitter?".

Neil Anderson
Bob Kluttz
2005-07-22 22:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by r***@gmail.com
At a recent signing, RJ named one of them as Amira Moselle, the
erstwhile Sitter and Keeper.
Context was not quite clear Rich - was Amira one of the dead Reds, or
as a member of the Cairhien embassy? I remember that name being
bruited about in connection with the revised question of the week
response to "Was Elaida a Sitter?".
Neil Anderson
Chatting with RJ at Comic*Con. He recounts the story of
whether or not Elaida was a Sitter and the name of Amira
came up (He pronounces it with a long I. Go Figure) and
out of the blue he said, "She died at Dumai's Wells."

Bob Kluttz
John Hamby
2005-07-23 14:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kluttz
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by r***@gmail.com
At a recent signing, RJ named one of them as Amira Moselle, the
erstwhile Sitter and Keeper.
Context was not quite clear Rich - was Amira one of the dead Reds, or
as a member of the Cairhien embassy? I remember that name being
bruited about in connection with the revised question of the week
response to "Was Elaida a Sitter?".
Chatting with RJ at Comic*Con. He recounts the story of
whether or not Elaida was a Sitter and the name of Amira
came up (He pronounces it with a long I. Go Figure) and
out of the blue he said, "She died at Dumai's Wells."
Any other "blue" mutterings worth knowing?
Since both you and Rich know, I was wondering if someone
posted this earlier and I missed it? I'll goggle and see what I find.
Now if he would just let us know who the Blue Sitter was that died in
the coup.

---
JSH
Richard Boye
2005-07-23 14:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Bob Kluttz
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by r***@gmail.com
At a recent signing, RJ named one of them as Amira Moselle, the
erstwhile Sitter and Keeper.
Context was not quite clear Rich - was Amira one of the dead Reds, or
as a member of the Cairhien embassy? I remember that name being
bruited about in connection with the revised question of the week
response to "Was Elaida a Sitter?".
Chatting with RJ at Comic*Con. He recounts the story of
whether or not Elaida was a Sitter and the name of Amira
came up (He pronounces it with a long I. Go Figure) and
out of the blue he said, "She died at Dumai's Wells."
Any other "blue" mutterings worth knowing?
Since both you and Rich know, I was wondering if someone
posted this earlier and I missed it? I'll goggle and see what I find.
Now if he would just let us know who the Blue Sitter was that died in
the coup.
I am not aware of any insight about the missing Blue, but we do learn
the name of the unnamed Gray Sitter who voted to depose Suian and who
remained in Tar Valon.

We've met her before.
--
Richard M. Boye' * ***@webspan.net
Typing into the Void: ***@gmail.com
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/­books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound
Neil Anderson
2005-07-23 17:47:37 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by John Hamby
Post by Bob Kluttz
Post by Bob Kluttz
Chatting with RJ at Comic*Con. He recounts the story of
whether or not Elaida was a Sitter and the name of Amira
came up (He pronounces it with a long I. Go Figure) and
out of the blue he said, "She died at Dumai's Wells."
Any other "blue" mutterings worth knowing?
Since both you and Rich know, I was wondering if someone
posted this earlier and I missed it? I'll goggle and see what I find.
Now if he would just let us know who the Blue Sitter was that died in
the coup.
I am not aware of any insight about the missing Blue, but we do learn
the name of the unnamed Gray Sitter who voted to depose Suian and who
remained in Tar Valon.
We've met her before.


Oh, tell us do, you big tease.

Neil Anderson
John Hamby
2005-07-23 18:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip>
Post by John Hamby
Post by Bob Kluttz
Post by Bob Kluttz
Chatting with RJ at Comic*Con. He recounts the story of
whether or not Elaida was a Sitter and the name of Amira
came up (He pronounces it with a long I. Go Figure) and
out of the blue he said, "She died at Dumai's Wells."
Any other "blue" mutterings worth knowing?
Since both you and Rich know, I was wondering if someone
posted this earlier and I missed it? I'll goggle and see what I find.
Now if he would just let us know who the Blue Sitter was that died in
the coup.
I am not aware of any insight about the missing Blue, but we do learn
the name of the unnamed Gray Sitter who voted to depose Suian and who
remained in Tar Valon.
We've met her before.
Oh, tell us do, you big tease.
Its Evanellein. She was part of Elaida's advisory council.

I guess I thought I was being clever. My '"blue" mutterings' was
to Bob's "out of the blue" comment; not about the Blue Sitter (I've read
the prologue).
I was just wondering what other info might have come out of Comic'con
along those lines.


---
JSH
Bob Kluttz
2005-07-23 20:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
I was just wondering what other info might have come out of Comic'con
along those lines.
I missed the Thursday panel session but the Friday (solo) session
had almost no questions on content. There are summaries posted
on both wotmania and Dragonmount. The only other comment of interest
was that Kari al'Thor was a merchant's daughter from Caemlyn.

I'll make sure Jennifer has the third Blue Sitter question on
her list for Dragon*Con.

Bob Kluttz
John Hamby
2005-07-24 05:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Kluttz
Post by John Hamby
I was just wondering what other info might have come out of Comic'con
along those lines.
I missed the Thursday panel session but the Friday (solo) session
had almost no questions on content. There are summaries posted
on both wotmania and Dragonmount. The only other comment of interest
was that Kari al'Thor was a merchant's daughter from Caemlyn.
I'll make sure Jennifer has the third Blue Sitter question on
her list for Dragon*Con.
I'm not sure if it works better to ask for the name or to ask him if
a specific name fits the bill.

Back during the TPOD signing at Bailey's Crossing, I asked him
the name of the retired sister as old as Cadsuane in New Spring
by asking if it was Romanda and he instantly verified that.

So I'm not sure if its better to ask if either of the two Blue
Sitters in NS:tN survived until the coup of to just ask flat out
who it was. I noticed at several signings that Jordan just does
not remember. Questions (that weren't glaring RAFO's) that have
some prompter, some reference point to trigger his memory, seem
to get answered over flat out "who is/was/where/when etc.

If you don't mind I would also like to know where Irenvelle, Mosara
and Goaban were located to contemporary Randland if someone needs
a backup question.

Of course the prologue only added more incomplete minutae. What Ajahs
are Zanca and Arebiss belong to other than not Red. Hopefully such
wil be answered in the rest of the book seeing as where more than one of
the major plotlines is located.

I'm enough of an AS geek that I was actually psyched to figure out
Merym was White Ajah. At least my obsession only flares up for about
six months every two years or so.

If KOD gives me all ten spies, the heads of the Ajahs in the rebel camp
more of the secretive non-BA sisters in Caemlyn I'll be happy.

---
JSH
Richard Boye
2005-07-24 13:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
So I'm not sure if its better to ask if either of the two Blue
Sitters in NS:tN survived until the coup of to just ask flat out
who it was. I noticed at several signings that Jordan just does
not remember. Questions (that weren't glaring RAFO's) that have
some prompter, some reference point to trigger his memory, seem
to get answered over flat out "who is/was/where/when etc.
If you don't mind I would also like to know where Irenvelle, Mosara
and Goaban were located to contemporary Randland if someone needs
a backup question.
Of course the prologue only added more incomplete minutae. What Ajahs
are Zanca and Arebiss belong to other than not Red. Hopefully such
wil be answered in the rest of the book seeing as where more than one of
the major plotlines is located.
I'm enough of an AS geek that I was actually psyched to figure out
Merym was White Ajah. At least my obsession only flares up for about
six months every two years or so.
Merym?

She's mentioned only once - how did you deduce her Ajah?

Also, we missed the appearance of another one-mentioner. Barasine was
mentioned as one of the Reds who gentled Owyn. She finally showed up.

However, all we're missing is Bennae.
--
Richard M. Boye' * ***@webspan.net
Typing into the Void: ***@gmail.com
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/­books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound
John Hamby
2005-07-24 18:19:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Boye
Post by John Hamby
So I'm not sure if its better to ask if either of the two Blue
Sitters in NS:tN survived until the coup of to just ask flat out
who it was. I noticed at several signings that Jordan just does
not remember. Questions (that weren't glaring RAFO's) that have
some prompter, some reference point to trigger his memory, seem
to get answered over flat out "who is/was/where/when etc.
If you don't mind I would also like to know where Irenvelle, Mosara
and Goaban were located to contemporary Randland if someone needs
a backup question.
Of course the prologue only added more incomplete minutae. What Ajahs
are Zanca and Arebiss belong to other than not Red. Hopefully such
wil be answered in the rest of the book seeing as where more than one of
the major plotlines is located.
I'm enough of an AS geek that I was actually psyched to figure out
Merym was White Ajah. At least my obsession only flares up for about
six months every two years or so.
Merym?
She's mentioned only once - how did you deduce her Ajah?
Eh, I don't. My bad. I was actually thinking Mayam it turns out, but
she is a kidnapper so either dead, resident of Cheese Town or playing
apprentice to the Aiel.

Too many damn "m" names. And now Merym and Melare to add to the lot.
Post by Richard Boye
Also, we missed the appearance of another one-mentioner. Barasine was
mentioned as one of the Reds who gentled Owyn. She finally showed up.
Was she? I know she was the one who Logain accused of approaching him
with Javindrha. Which I always took to mean that Barasine and Javindhra
were known to be out of the Tower at the time Logain claims for Siuan to
include them in her lie. Something Siuan could easily know. Added
benefit is the two might also have had something to do with either his
capture and/or his gentling.
Post by Richard Boye
However, all we're missing is Bennae.
Still waiting for Serafelle to pop up again as well.

---
JSH
r***@gmail.com
2005-07-24 19:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Richard Boye
However, all we're missing is Bennae.
Still waiting for Serafelle to pop up again as well.
My, we lead exciting lives.

--
RMB
John Hamby
2005-07-24 23:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by John Hamby
Post by Richard Boye
However, all we're missing is Bennae.
Still waiting for Serafelle to pop up again as well.
My, we lead exciting lives.
Eh. I know people who are still debating the merits of the super
costume for the yet to be released Superman movie.

We haven't hit rock bottom yet.

---
JSH
Ilya the Recusant
2005-07-25 01:34:28 UTC
Permalink
In a not so bright galaxy nowhere near intelligent space, John Hamby
Post by John Hamby
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by John Hamby
Post by Richard Boye
However, all we're missing is Bennae.
Still waiting for Serafelle to pop up again as well.
My, we lead exciting lives.
Eh. I know people who are still debating the merits of the super
costume for the yet to be released Superman movie.
We haven't hit rock bottom yet.
I'm still trying to figure out the trails on the knives in the V for
Vendetta preview.
Post by John Hamby
---
JSH
Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Jennifer Winters
2005-07-25 19:41:37 UTC
Permalink
"John Hamby" <***@cub.kcnet.org> wrote in message news:***@individual.net...
:
: Eh. I know people who are still debating the merits of the super
: costume for the yet to be released Superman movie.
:
: We haven't hit rock bottom yet.

Superman looked his costume over critically. The gold threads
outlining the red "S" went well with the crimson silk complete with
Tarien embroidery. Still, he wasn't too sure about the pearls and
sapphires sprinkled over his tights.

"Makes me look too much like Wonder Woman. Are you sure this is
absolutely necessary?"

"Oh, sure," said Min Supergirl. "All the best superheros have those
now and you have to be just as super as them. More, because you're
Kal-El Reborn."

Superman sniffed and crossed his arms under his pecs. He wished
Batman was there. Batman always got along with women so much better
than he did. Must be the cowl. That gave him an idea.

"Hey, maybe I should have a cowl made. What do you think?"

"I think you should leave the thinking to Supergirl," replied Aviendha
Lane.

"Wool-headed reporter," muttered Elayne Lang.

Superman sniffed again and tried to tug his braid before he realized
he didn't have one. He wondered how much longer it would be before
his bath.
--
Jennifer Winters

Nerd in babe's clothing.
Whole-body console game action.
Peter Strauss
2005-07-25 23:44:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:41:37 GMT, "Jennifer Winters"
Post by Jennifer Winters
: Eh. I know people who are still debating the merits of the super
: costume for the yet to be released Superman movie.
: We haven't hit rock bottom yet.
Superman looked his costume over critically. The gold threads
outlining the red "S" went well with the crimson silk complete with
Tarien embroidery. Still, he wasn't too sure about the pearls and
sapphires sprinkled over his tights.
"Makes me look too much like Wonder Woman. Are you sure this is
absolutely necessary?"
"Oh, sure," said Min Supergirl. "All the best superheros have those
now and you have to be just as super as them. More, because you're
Kal-El Reborn."
Superman sniffed and crossed his arms under his pecs. He wished
Batman was there. Batman always got along with women so much better
than he did. Must be the cowl. That gave him an idea.
"Hey, maybe I should have a cowl made. What do you think?"
"I think you should leave the thinking to Supergirl," replied Aviendha
Lane.
"Wool-headed reporter," muttered Elayne Lang.
Superman sniffed again and tried to tug his braid before he realized
he didn't have one. He wondered how much longer it would be before
his bath.
Wonderful! Thank you!
John Hamby
2005-07-25 05:45:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Boye
Post by John Hamby
So I'm not sure if its better to ask if either of the two Blue
Sitters in NS:tN survived until the coup of to just ask flat out
who it was. I noticed at several signings that Jordan just does
not remember. Questions (that weren't glaring RAFO's) that have
some prompter, some reference point to trigger his memory, seem
to get answered over flat out "who is/was/where/when etc.
If you don't mind I would also like to know where Irenvelle, Mosara
and Goaban were located to contemporary Randland if someone needs
a backup question.
Of course the prologue only added more incomplete minutae. What Ajahs
are Zanca and Arebiss belong to other than not Red. Hopefully such
wil be answered in the rest of the book seeing as where more than one of
the major plotlines is located.
I'm enough of an AS geek that I was actually psyched to figure out
Merym was White Ajah. At least my obsession only flares up for about
six months every two years or so.
Merym?
She's mentioned only once - how did you deduce her Ajah?
Correcting myself. Made annotations and then tried to organize them in
Adobe and screwed them up. Ended up mixing my notes on the make up of
the kidnapping party according to the knowledge that one of the other
three killed was Laigan (and know it was Amira) in trying to figure out
how many Reds are with Covarla and ended up inserting the Mayam info
as being Red, Green or White in the wrong place.

Went back to fix what I thought was the Mayam error and found I was
right the first time.

Seven sisters took Egwene (five in the coach, two went ahead to report
to Elaida), two Reds were with each party which caused the other
non-Reds to be a little upset by Melare's statement to Katerine.

So the two Reds are Katerine and Barasine, Pritalle is Yellow, Felaana
is Brown, Jala is Green and Berisha is Gray. Merym then is White.
I guess there is the slight chance of Merym being Green as well and that
is why she went with Jala, but I think the premise is that Elaida wanted
Reds in charge and that is why there were two. And since the Reds were
the only doubled Ajah to take Leane, I think it safe to surmise that
Katerine and Barasine were the only pair in the group that took Egwene.

Its a sickness I know. Hopefully in about two and a half years from now
it will be all over. Well that and the occasional flare up whenever I
think of a nice thick WoT encyclopedia Jordan mutters about that include
a little "Lives of the Amyrlins" section he said he has considered at
least once upon a time.

---
JSH
Neil Anderson
2005-07-24 13:42:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
<snip AS geekiness confession>
If KOD gives me all ten spies, the heads of the Ajahs in the rebel camp
more of the secretive non-BA sisters in Caemlyn I'll be happy.
And the whereabouts of the rest of Liandrin's thirteen, complete Ajah
breakdown of both the Tower embassy to Cairhien and the Black Tower
attackers (fifty one in total).

Neil Anderson
Brinner
2005-07-22 17:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
Haven't read said spoilers, where can I get my hands on the prologue?
Is it available in ebook? I've checked amazon with no luck.

Brinner
Neil Anderson
2005-07-22 17:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brinner
Haven't read said spoilers, where can I get my hands on the prologue?
Is it available in ebook? I've checked amazon with no luck.
I bough it at ebooks.

Neil Anderson
Brinner
2005-07-22 17:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by Brinner
Haven't read said spoilers, where can I get my hands on the prologue?
Is it available in ebook? I've checked amazon with no luck.
I bough it at ebooks.
Neil Anderson
Excellent Neil.Excellent. That'll keep me entertained in work tomorrow!

Brinner
carl wynn
2005-07-22 18:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brinner
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
Haven't read said spoilers, where can I get my hands on the prologue?
Is it available in ebook? I've checked amazon with no luck.
Brinner
I downloaded from ebooks.com

cw
Cairone Belaero
2005-07-22 18:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
I thought it moved things along well, a sense of things happening and
some things that really shocked me
What shocked me were some a pair of blatant, gruesome errors. I can
see how they'd pass through a quick skim over the text, but I certainly
hope Tor catches these and makes the proper revisions.

On page 48 (50 of 143), Suroth refers to Beslan as the new King of
Tarabon. Unless there's been some other promotions going around,
shouldn't that read King of Altara?

And on page 95 (97 of 143), it says Therava stiffened, but Therava
isn't anywhere around, so it must mean Galina.

Anyone know if Tor accepts any outside editing when people catch errors
like this? I mean, as amusing as it is to watch Rand scrabble
desperate for saidar, and Egwene noticing in the waste that Nynaeve's
blankets are empty, I would rather not have those jarring instances
spoiling the read.

--CB
Ash
2005-07-22 18:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cairone Belaero
Post by Ash
I thought it moved things along well, a sense of things happening and
some things that really shocked me
What shocked me were some a pair of blatant, gruesome errors. I can
see how they'd pass through a quick skim over the text, but I certainly
hope Tor catches these and makes the proper revisions.
On page 48 (50 of 143), Suroth refers to Beslan as the new King of
Tarabon. Unless there's been some other promotions going around,
shouldn't that read King of Altara?
And on page 95 (97 of 143), it says Therava stiffened, but Therava
isn't anywhere around, so it must mean Galina.
Anyone know if Tor accepts any outside editing when people catch errors
like this? I mean, as amusing as it is to watch Rand scrabble
desperate for saidar, and Egwene noticing in the waste that Nynaeve's
blankets are empty, I would rather not have those jarring instances
spoiling the read.
--CB
I pciekd up the Therava one on a re-read, but missed the other totally.
Hopefully this will alert them, but I doubt it
Rajiv Mote
2005-07-22 20:22:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cairone Belaero
On page 48 (50 of 143), Suroth refers to Beslan as the new King of
Tarabon. Unless there's been some other promotions going around,
shouldn't that read King of Altara?
At least this one seems reasonable. Tuon had shown Tylin a map of all
the territory Tylin now ruled in the Seanchan's name, now that the
Seanchan had consolidated their control over Tarabon and Altara.
Beslan probably IS king of Tarabon now, AND of Altara, if they didn't
just make Altara the new capital of Tarabon. Borders are getting moved
and reassigned all over the place.
Johan Gustafsson
2005-07-27 05:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cairone Belaero
Post by Ash
I thought it moved things along well, a sense of things happening and
some things that really shocked me
What shocked me were some a pair of blatant, gruesome errors. I can
see how they'd pass through a quick skim over the text, but I certainly
hope Tor catches these and makes the proper revisions.
On page 48 (50 of 143), Suroth refers to Beslan as the new King of
Tarabon. Unless there's been some other promotions going around,
shouldn't that read King of Altara?
And on page 95 (97 of 143), it says Therava stiffened, but Therava
isn't anywhere around, so it must mean Galina.
Anyone know if Tor accepts any outside editing when people catch errors
like this? I mean, as amusing as it is to watch Rand scrabble
desperate for saidar, and Egwene noticing in the waste that Nynaeve's
blankets are empty, I would rather not have those jarring instances
spoiling the read.
And another when the forerunners are referred to as the Corenne.
--
Johan Gustafsson *** ***@e-bostad.net

Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President?
Tim Bruening
2005-12-02 07:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cairone Belaero
Post by Ash
I thought it moved things along well, a sense of things happening and
some things that really shocked me
What shocked me were some a pair of blatant, gruesome errors. I can
see how they'd pass through a quick skim over the text, but I certainly
hope Tor catches these and makes the proper revisions.
On page 48 (50 of 143), Suroth refers to Beslan as the new King of
Tarabon. Unless there's been some other promotions going around,
shouldn't that read King of Altara?
And on page 95 (97 of 143), it says Therava stiffened, but Therava
isn't anywhere around, so it must mean Galina.
Anyone know if Tor accepts any outside editing when people catch errors
like this? I mean, as amusing as it is to watch Rand scrabble
desperate for saidar, and Egwene noticing in the waste that Nynaeve's
blankets are empty, I would rather not have those jarring instances
spoiling the read.
LOL!!!!!
Ash
2005-07-22 23:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Does anyone know the timeline well enough to know how Duhara's
dissapearance (over a week before the Pevara PoV, which was 12 days
after the cleansing I think) ties into the Alviarin/Shaidar
Haran/Mesaana scene? after 15 years out, any changes in behaviour would
have been accepted
John Hamby
2005-07-23 14:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
What is Suroth up to? Who has been impersonating Tuon? It seems very
much like she would not have a pretend Tuon, so what was the arrangement
with Rand? Tuon as Empress, interesting, I guess that removes the need
for Rand to go there for the prophecy (either version) to be resolved)
I don't think it is so much an impersonation as misinformation being
spread around deliberately by Semirhage or the rumors already spreading
that Tuon is dead and perhaps Suroth is now considered Empress de jure,
and barring a coronation or some such is now tDotNM.

It would have been insteresting to see Semirhage in action as opposed to
hearing about it second hand. Jordan always said there was the slight
chance of a single scene outside Randland besides Far Snows. It would
have really made everyone sit up and take notice if we see Semirhage pop
into the throne room in Seandar and just law some serious carnage down.
Though her comment about the blood seemed very non-Semirhage. Maybe
Jordan just forgot. Or maybe Semirhage just introduced the imperial
court to a pack of Fades and sat back to watch.

I'm wondering now if the Darkhounds are hunting Tuon, not Mat.
Post by Ash
Nice to see progress in the BA hunt, even if it is only two more, it's
looking more and more like a race between Alviarin and the others
One thing that bothered me. In Pevara's pov, thinking/discussing the
wall they seem to have reached with their hunt, it mentions how at least
they have four and four names. Well the four they have are Talene,
Atuan, Marris and Karale. But Galina is considered dead. And it says
how Marris "one other" is out of the Tower. "as with the others".
So Atuan is Talene's "one other" but apparently Talene is not her's.
Meaning that the one other does not know who knows her identity?
I'm still trying to fgiure out how that works. i wonder if Jordan is as
well. Poor organization that can see a cell totally reliant on one
sister. Which means Jordan will be really challenged to make sure he
doesn't screw this up. The hunters manage to bag an entire cell and it
just happens to be one now entirely cut off from the rest of the
network. As rough as it makes it for the hunters to continue, it is a
piece of luck for them as well. With Talene gone missing, Alviarin
shouldn't be surprised or dismayed too much when the other three BA are
slow or unresponsive.

I still wish the hunters would up the ante a bit before too long.
Start nabbing some key sisters regardless of the identities wrung from
the captive BA. Kidnap them, shield them, plunk them down and have
Talene and the others swear they are BA and then put the rod in the
captive's hands and say, 'AS vapors over the mention of BA be damned.
Take the oath or join those four. Your choice.'
The idea that the BA hunters still quibble and equivocate about the
integrity of their individual Ajah as things now stand is one of the
heaviest handed moments in the book for me. They know the BA exists and
the Last Battle is coming. All know that at least one of the others has
deduced who heads their Ajah. The fact that Jesse, Adelorna, Suana,
Ferane and Serancha all haven't had a recent tour of the Tower cellars
stretches the credibility of the loathing for the BA that Jordan would
like us to believe in everywhere else.
Post by Ash
So, the woman on the cover was Galina. Not sure if the male was Neald or
Arganda though
Perrin's part still bores me. I really hope this is short and to the
point no matter how it turns out. How many more chapters do we have to
bear of someone riding/walking etc. in the cold. And Jordan reducing
the col, driven Perrin to a simpering simple-minded boy who just had his
first kiss was ridiculous. Perrin has three AS, who all have been
established since TPOD as something he cannot trust and has to weighed
up down and sideways. Faced with one supposedly playing Tower games
with the _Shaido_ and Perrin just jumps up down clapping "Faile Faile
Faile". I mean I might buy that...If PErrin had not been to Dumai's
Fucking Wells.
Post by Ash
Egwene, I assume it was Nichola who betrayed her, she is in for some
beatings, I was surprised that Elaida didn't want to still her though.
Half succeeded in the chain
I tend to waver between it not being Nicola and typical Jordan writing.
i would like to think if it was Nicola, she would have told them exactly
what was going to happen, i.e. the cuendillar. Because she could always
back up her knowledge by turning Elaida's tea service into something
better. The fact that the capturing sisters don't seem to know what was
going to happen and some still aren;t sure even after the fact indicates
the chance the betrayal was more in the form of "watch the harbor" and
that's it.

I cannot believe that Jordan had Egwene so stupid as to not invert her
weaves. Gah!
Post by Ash
I thought it moved things along well, a sense of things happening and
some things that really shocked me
Overall I was pleased. I'm not sure where he is going with Ituralde
unless to just touch briefly on events that will be rumors and news
throughout the rest of the book as this the next to last book, who the
fuck cares about Tarabon at this point? Particularly with Seanchan
falling apart at the seams, the threat of the Return suddenly landing a
couple of million Seanchan now seems non-existent.

Was glad to finally find out the third Gray Sitter. I really hope that
we see a sitting of Elaida full Hall in this book.

I did not expect Leane to be caught though. That could make it
interesting. With the BA hunt reaching a turning point of some kind,
her presence in the Tower dredges up all kinds of old looney theories.

Alviarin is known as BA by six others. Three that consider her a
cell-mate and three that know she is their leader.

I know I am way too sensitive, but I'd swear that Joran was laying on
the Mesaana red herrings left and right. Tsutama, Melare, Javindhra,
Duhara and the return of Norine all seemed liek he was trying to
distract us. Which raises my hopes that if all are deliberate items of
misinformation, her reveal is on the way.

Duhara's departure is odd. Though if Mesaana turns out to be her, I
will be really pissed. I'm still trying to figure out why Duhara would
take off though. Maybe crazy Tsutama sent her out to do something.
Or maybe Elaida did.

I hope that Egwene's bit is from the first chapter as mentioned
elsewhere. I want a good six or eight chapters burrowing into the Tower
situation followed by at least one or two with Siuan in the rebel camp.

Overall, it definitely whet the juices. Whether the main course lives
up to the starter will of course have to wait until October.

---
JSH
Brian Roux
2005-07-23 16:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Alviarin is known as BA by six others. Three that consider her a
cell-mate and three that know she is their leader.
Unless the two in her cell plus her one other are also on the council,
in which case there are only three who know she's BA, and the same three
know she's their leader.
Post by John Hamby
I cannot believe that Jordan had Egwene so stupid as to not invert her
weaves. Gah!
Speaking of which, where did Leane and Eg learn to reverse webs? AFAIK
while some non-forsaken can invert webs now, none of them can reverse
prior to this prologue. Granted Eg or Leane could have learned it from
Moghedien and taught it to the other since Eg appears to know, even if
she didn't use it.

~ Brian
John Hamby
2005-07-23 18:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Roux
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Alviarin is known as BA by six others. Three that consider her a
cell-mate and three that know she is their leader.
Unless the two in her cell plus her one other are also on the council,
in which case there are only three who know she's BA, and the same three
know she's their leader.
No, in the prologue, Alviarin definitely indicates that three know her
position on the Supreme council but the members of her heart don't:

page 87-88 of the e-prologue:
"Even the sisters of her own heart believed her no more than they. Only
three on the Supreme Council knew who she was..."

Combined with Galina's knowledge that Alviarin is the head of the
Supreme Council, Alviarin's heart does not know she leads it.

Reading over that again, though my count might be off. One of the three
on the Supreme Council could be her "one extra". So that would mean
five know she is BA, not six.


---
JSH
Ash
2005-07-23 20:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Brian Roux
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Alviarin is known as BA by six others. Three that consider her a
cell-mate and three that know she is their leader.
Unless the two in her cell plus her one other are also on the council,
in which case there are only three who know she's BA, and the same
three know she's their leader.
No, in the prologue, Alviarin definitely indicates that three know her
"Even the sisters of her own heart believed her no more than they. Only
three on the Supreme Council knew who she was..."
Combined with Galina's knowledge that Alviarin is the head of the
Supreme Council, Alviarin's heart does not know she leads it.
Reading over that again, though my count might be off. One of the three
on the Supreme Council could be her "one extra". So that would mean
five know she is BA, not six.
How does it work when a BA dies? Presumably, they must wait until
someone new is found to join the three and the woman who had her as her
"one extra" is told the new name. Though that doesn't tell us about the
"one extra" of the new BA. They would have to wait until joining a cell
before getting the "one extra in that case", similalrly, if three new
people joined without a death, if they were put into their own circle,
they wouldn't have a "one extra"
Ash
2005-07-23 19:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I don't think it is so much an impersonation as misinformation being
spread around deliberately by Semirhage or the rumors already spreading
that Tuon is dead and perhaps Suroth is now considered Empress de jure,
and barring a coronation or some such is now tDotNM.
It does seem that Semihirge might be responsible, though why Rand would
be told he is to meet the daughter is a mystery. Did this have a
timeframe? It must be before the end of CoT, as she didn't even think
of Rand, but by how much?
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
So, the woman on the cover was Galina. Not sure if the male was Neald
or Arganda though
Arganda.
After a re-read, his description matches the cover and Fager was wearing
black
Post by John Hamby
I cannot believe that Jordan had Egwene so stupid as to not invert her
weaves. Gah!
Yeah, foolish even for her
Post by John Hamby
Overall I was pleased. I'm not sure where he is going with Ituralde
unless to just touch briefly on events that will be rumors and news
throughout the rest of the book as this the next to last book, who the
fuck cares about Tarabon at this point? Particularly with Seanchan
falling apart at the seams, the threat of the Return suddenly landing a
couple of million Seanchan now seems non-existent.
Tht did seem a little unnecessary, the important part - what happened
and the Seancah response, was all covered in Suroth's PoV
Post by John Hamby
Was glad to finally find out the third Gray Sitter. I really hope that
we see a sitting of Elaida full Hall in this book.
I did not expect Leane to be caught though. That could make it
interesting. With the BA hunt reaching a turning point of some kind,
her presence in the Tower dredges up all kinds of old looney theories.
Alviarin is known as BA by six others. Three that consider her a
cell-mate and three that know she is their leader.
I know I am way too sensitive, but I'd swear that Joran was laying on
the Mesaana red herrings left and right. Tsutama, Melare, Javindhra,
Duhara and the return of Norine all seemed liek he was trying to
distract us. Which raises my hopes that if all are deliberate items of
misinformation, her reveal is on the way.
Duhara's departure is odd. Though if Mesaana turns out to be her, I
will be really pissed. I'm still trying to figure out why Duhara would
take off though. Maybe crazy Tsutama sent her out to do something.
Or maybe Elaida did.
Well, if her departure was shortly after Alviarin got a proper look at
her, she might have paniced, though if she is "tantalisingly familiar" I
can't see why that would be
Rob Kerr
2005-07-25 11:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I cannot believe that Jordan had Egwene so stupid as to not invert her
weaves. Gah!
This could be an effect of the headaches she has been suffering at the hands
of Halima. I want to see Egwene realise that Halima must have been the
cause
of the headaches, and draw the right conclusion, now that she's out of her
influence.

Rob Kerr
Johan Gustafsson
2005-07-27 05:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I'm wondering now if the Darkhounds are hunting Tuon, not Mat.
Now there's an interesting idea. I like.
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Nice to see progress in the BA hunt, even if it is only two more, it's
looking more and more like a race between Alviarin and the others
One thing that bothered me. In Pevara's pov, thinking/discussing the
wall they seem to have reached with their hunt, it mentions how at least
they have four and four names. Well the four they have are Talene,
Atuan, Marris and Karale. But Galina is considered dead. And it says
how Marris "one other" is out of the Tower. "as with the others".
So Atuan is Talene's "one other" but apparently Talene is not her's.
Hmm... I first thought that the "others" referred to the four BA they
hadn't caught, but going back it does seem to say that Atuan's "other"
is also out of the Tower.

I suspect this isn't a reorganization of the BA, but a clumsily written
passage. I take it to mean that at this point all the named BA are
outside Tar Valon and nothing more.
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
So, the woman on the cover was Galina. Not sure if the male was Neald or
Arganda though
Perrin's part still bores me.
Amen.
Post by John Hamby
I really hope this is short and to the
point no matter how it turns out. How many more chapters do we have to
bear of someone riding/walking etc. in the cold. And Jordan reducing
the col, driven Perrin to a simpering simple-minded boy who just had his
first kiss was ridiculous. Perrin has three AS, who all have been
established since TPOD as something he cannot trust and has to weighed
up down and sideways. Faced with one supposedly playing Tower games
with the _Shaido_ and Perrin just jumps up down clapping "Faile Faile
Faile". I mean I might buy that...If PErrin had not been to Dumai's
Fucking Wells.
I'd like to think Perrin's got something going on here, that he's
playing Galina or whatever, but there is no real hint of it in the text,
and I'm not one for undue optimism these days.
Post by John Hamby
Was glad to finally find out the third Gray Sitter. I really hope that
we see a sitting of Elaida full Hall in this book.
I should have guessed Evanellein long ago, I suppose. Good to find out,
finally.
--
Johan Gustafsson *** ***@e-bostad.net

Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President?
Mark Erikson
2005-07-29 13:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johan Gustafsson
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
<snip>
Post by Johan Gustafsson
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
So, the woman on the cover was Galina. Not sure if the male was Neald or
Arganda though
Perrin's part still bores me.
Amen.
Post by John Hamby
I really hope this is short and to the
point no matter how it turns out. How many more chapters do we have to
bear of someone riding/walking etc. in the cold. And Jordan reducing
the col, driven Perrin to a simpering simple-minded boy who just had his
first kiss was ridiculous. Perrin has three AS, who all have been
established since TPOD as something he cannot trust and has to weighed
up down and sideways. Faced with one supposedly playing Tower games
with the _Shaido_ and Perrin just jumps up down clapping "Faile Faile
Faile". I mean I might buy that...If PErrin had not been to Dumai's
Fucking Wells.
I'd like to think Perrin's got something going on here, that he's
playing Galina or whatever, but there is no real hint of it in the text,
and I'm not one for undue optimism these days.
Well, Galina has one thing to her advantage. She can lie. Which means
she can give Perrin absolutes and he will believe them, even if he
doesn't trust Aes Sedai. All he really needed from her was a promise
to tell Faile where to go, nothing else.

As for how long he's giving her, I got the impression that her "week"
or "few days" wasn't a case of him being generous. I got the feeling
that he'd be attacking when he was ready, which would be no sooner than
a few days anyway.

He may not trust "Tower business", but he also clearly doesn't care
about it in this case. He simply needed Galina to promise to pass on
his instructions. And quite possibly implied to Galina that he was
_giving_ her the time in order to persuade her to do so.

The fact that Galina can lie is a spanner in the works.
Post by Johan Gustafsson
Post by John Hamby
Was glad to finally find out the third Gray Sitter. I really hope that
we see a sitting of Elaida full Hall in this book.
I should have guessed Evanellein long ago, I suppose. Good to find out,
finally.
Is there a site somewhere that breaks down all these complex
side-plots? The only one I have any kind of notion of is the Purple
Ajah. All these other mysterious situations, interactions between
names I don't recognise, are getting annoying. Especially that they're
now having an impact on the plot.

-Mark Erikson
Ash
2005-07-29 15:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by Johan Gustafsson
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
<snip>
Post by Johan Gustafsson
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
So, the woman on the cover was Galina. Not sure if the male was Neald or
Arganda though
Perrin's part still bores me.
Amen.
Post by John Hamby
I really hope this is short and to the
point no matter how it turns out. How many more chapters do we have to
bear of someone riding/walking etc. in the cold. And Jordan reducing
the col, driven Perrin to a simpering simple-minded boy who just had his
first kiss was ridiculous. Perrin has three AS, who all have been
established since TPOD as something he cannot trust and has to weighed
up down and sideways. Faced with one supposedly playing Tower games
with the _Shaido_ and Perrin just jumps up down clapping "Faile Faile
Faile". I mean I might buy that...If PErrin had not been to Dumai's
Fucking Wells.
I'd like to think Perrin's got something going on here, that he's
playing Galina or whatever, but there is no real hint of it in the text,
and I'm not one for undue optimism these days.
Well, Galina has one thing to her advantage. She can lie. Which means
she can give Perrin absolutes and he will believe them, even if he
doesn't trust Aes Sedai. All he really needed from her was a promise
to tell Faile where to go, nothing else.
As for how long he's giving her, I got the impression that her "week"
or "few days" wasn't a case of him being generous. I got the feeling
that he'd be attacking when he was ready, which would be no sooner than
a few days anyway.
He may not trust "Tower business", but he also clearly doesn't care
about it in this case. He simply needed Galina to promise to pass on
his instructions. And quite possibly implied to Galina that he was
_giving_ her the time in order to persuade her to do so.
The fact that Galina can lie is a spanner in the works.
My impression was also not so much that he bleieved there were important
Tower plots he needed to stay out of, but that he didn't care. He said
that he wouldn't leave Faile there a day longer than he had to. The "few
days" seemed to be what was needed anyway while he waited for something
or someone
Neil Anderson
2005-07-27 12:24:34 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by John Hamby
One thing that bothered me. In Pevara's pov, thinking/discussing the
wall they seem to have reached with their hunt, it mentions how at least
they have four and four names. Well the four they have are Talene,
Atuan, Marris and Karale. But Galina is considered dead. And it says
how Marris "one other" is out of the Tower. "as with the others".
So Atuan is Talene's "one other" but apparently Talene is not her's.
<snip>

The fourth name they have is that of Temaile Kinderode, one of
Liandrian's thirteen and now in Andor.

I checked back in Glimmers to see what we learn there what the BA
hunters learn from questioning Talene.

On pp44 of the hardback, Yukiri is watching Atuan and Pritalle talk to
each other. "Atuan Larisett was one of the only three Black sisters
that Talene knew". Then on p45 we find Yukiri thinking of the fury
of Pevara when learning that Galina is BA, and her own "cold
detachment when Temaile Kinderode was named". Since at that point
the BA hunters had only questioned Talene, the three she must have
named are Temaile, Galina and Atuan.

Thus -

Talene's heart is her, Galina (red) and Temaile (grey). Her
"other" is Atuan.
Atuan's heart is her, Karale Sanghir (grey) and Marris Thornhill
(brown). Her other is unknown to us, but the BA hunters have the
(Embers).

Karale's "other" and Marris' "other" are unnamed, but
Marris' is stated to be outside the Tower "as are the others".

The four names they have are therefore Temaile, Atuan's other,
Karale's other and Marris' other. Obviously each of the three
unnamed others can't be the same person, both because the BA hunters
have four names, and because of the rules of the BA (everyone knows
their heart plus one).

Neil Anderson
Dave Rothgery
2005-07-27 13:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip>
Post by John Hamby
One thing that bothered me. In Pevara's pov, thinking/discussing the
wall they seem to have reached with their hunt, it mentions how at least
they have four and four names. Well the four they have are Talene,
Atuan, Marris and Karale. But Galina is considered dead. And it says
how Marris "one other" is out of the Tower. "as with the others".
So Atuan is Talene's "one other" but apparently Talene is not her's.
<snip>
The fourth name they have is that of Temaile Kinderode, one of
Liandrian's thirteen and now in Andor.
I checked back in Glimmers to see what we learn there what the BA
hunters learn from questioning Talene.
On pp44 of the hardback, Yukiri is watching Atuan and Pritalle talk to
each other. "Atuan Larisett was one of the only three Black sisters
that Talene knew". Then on p45 we find Yukiri thinking of the fury
of Pevara when learning that Galina is BA, and her own "cold
detachment when Temaile Kinderode was named". Since at that point
the BA hunters had only questioned Talene, the three she must have
named are Temaile, Galina and Atuan.
Isn't pretty much common knowledge among all Aes Sedai that Liandrin's
13 are Black, or at least very strongly suspected of being Black?
--
Dave Rothgery
http://drmisc.blogspot.com
Neil Anderson
2005-07-27 13:45:01 UTC
Permalink
<snip Temaile being fourth name the BA hunters have>
Post by Dave Rothgery
Isn't pretty much common knowledge among all Aes Sedai that Liandrin's
13 are Black, or at least very strongly suspected of being Black?
That is what I thought as well, but to make RJ's comments in Embers
about "four BA in hand with four other names" make any sense, then it
looks like the BA hunters at least do NOT know that all of Liandrin's
13 (including Temaile) were Black.

We just don't know enough about who knows what and when about
Liandrin's 13 - perhaps someone with more encyclopedic knowledge than I
can figure it out. For instance - how widely known is it that Liandrin
and the other 12 all left together? How many folk know that sisters
and Warders died on the day that the 13 left the Tower, indicating that
they (or at least some of the 13) were BA?

Now that the BA hunters know that Temaile is BA (for certain), you have
got to think that someone is going to put two and two together and come
up with 13 Black Ajah names. But then again, these are AS we are
talking about here, so maybe they won't be able to piece the whole
thing together.

Neil Anderson
Neil Anderson
2005-07-27 14:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
We just don't know enough about who knows what and when about
Liandrin's 13 - perhaps someone with more encyclopedic knowledge than I
can figure it out. For instance - how widely known is it that Liandrin
and the other 12 all left together? How many folk know that sisters
and Warders died on the day that the 13 left the Tower, indicating that
they (or at least some of the 13) were BA?
http://photeus.com:8080/ewot/organizations/aes_sedai/black.html

Hmm, the above seems to indcate that all of the 13 are "exposed" as BA,
but it is not clear to what extent they are "exposed" - the Wonder
Girls, Suian and Leane obviously know, but who else does? Is it just
known to the Hall as well, or to AS in general. Can't believe it is
the latter case, since the BA hunters seem to have a hard time
convincing themselves that the BA actually could exist when they start
their hunt.

Neil Anderson
Neil Anderson
2005-07-27 14:26:25 UTC
Permalink
<snip Liandrin's 13 known to be BA or not?>

This is turning into a bit of a conversation with myself, but anyway -
in Glimmers, p45 it is said that Yukiri has "done the sums" when she
learned (from Talene) that Temaile was BA, and she has put together the
13 leaving the Tower with the 3 dead sisters that showed up at the same
time and come up with another 12 suspected BA.


Neil Anderson
John Hamby
2005-07-27 22:39:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip>
Post by John Hamby
One thing that bothered me. In Pevara's pov, thinking/discussing the
wall they seem to have reached with their hunt, it mentions how at least
they have four and four names. Well the four they have are Talene,
Atuan, Marris and Karale. But Galina is considered dead. And it says
how Marris "one other" is out of the Tower. "as with the others".
So Atuan is Talene's "one other" but apparently Talene is not her's.
<snip>
The fourth name they have is that of Temaile Kinderode, one of
Liandrian's thirteen and now in Andor.
I checked back in Glimmers to see what we learn there what the BA
hunters learn from questioning Talene.
On pp44 of the hardback, Yukiri is watching Atuan and Pritalle talk to
each other. "Atuan Larisett was one of the only three Black sisters
that Talene knew". Then on p45 we find Yukiri thinking of the fury
of Pevara when learning that Galina is BA, and her own "cold
detachment when Temaile Kinderode was named". Since at that point
the BA hunters had only questioned Talene, the three she must have
named are Temaile, Galina and Atuan.
Thus -
Talene's heart is her, Galina (red) and Temaile (grey). Her
"other" is Atuan.
Atuan's heart is her, Karale Sanghir (grey) and Marris Thornhill
(brown). Her other is unknown to us, but the BA hunters have the
(Embers).
Karale's "other" and Marris' "other" are unnamed, but
Marris' is stated to be outside the Tower "as are the others".
The four names they have are therefore Temaile, Atuan's other,
Karale's other and Marris' other. Obviously each of the three
unnamed others can't be the same person, both because the BA hunters
have four names, and because of the rules of the BA (everyone knows
their heart plus one).
Yeah. Got that far. But I found it really odd that Atuan's one other
is not Talene. Meaning that the one other has no idea who knows her.
Which is what I found odd. It also means that the communcitation betwen
hearts can only go one way. Atuan cannot contact Talene knowingly,
though Talene could contact her. Its a weird way to organize if you ask me.

It does raise the issue of Katerine being Galina's one other and not
just a perk Galina enjoys being on the Supreme Council.

i really hope we see the three oaths the BA swear. What I find odd that
the Hunters aren't a little more savvy as once freed from the oaths
Talene should be able to tell them exactly how each works. The fact
that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go outside
the heart if need be.

Hey! Look! I'm actually anticipating this book!

---
JSH
Neil Anderson
2005-07-29 10:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip>
Post by John Hamby
One thing that bothered me. In Pevara's pov, thinking/discussing the
wall they seem to have reached with their hunt, it mentions how at least
they have four and four names. Well the four they have are Talene,
Atuan, Marris and Karale. But Galina is considered dead. And it says
how Marris "one other" is out of the Tower. "as with the others".
So Atuan is Talene's "one other" but apparently Talene is not her's.
<snip>
<snip Temaile as fourth known BA name>
Yeah. Got that far. But I found it really odd that Atuan's one other
is not Talene. Meaning that the one other has no idea who knows her.
Which is what I found odd. It also means that the communcitation betwen
hearts can only go one way. Atuan cannot contact Talene knowingly,
though Talene could contact her. Its a weird way to organize if you ask me.
I see now. It does indeed seem to make for awkward and laborious
communication within the BA.
Post by John Hamby
It does raise the issue of Katerine being Galina's one other and not
just a perk Galina enjoys being on the Supreme Council.
Didn't Galina only learn that Katerine was BA only a few hours after
they left the Tower, on the way to Cairhien? So I don't think she was
Galina's 'one other', unless somehow Galina didn't have a 'plus one'
before the mission for some reason (which I think unlikely, since she
was on the Council, she probably was top of the list to get a
replacement if her 'plus one' died).
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).

Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).

Neil Anderson
Antonio Contreras
2005-07-29 11:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Neil Anderson wrote:
<snip discussion about BA>
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The whole concept of the BA structure is a big mess. IIRC, in the scene
were Alviarin has just been dismissed by Shaidar Haran, she starts
thinking how a message could go from her to another BA member
travelling from heart to heart. Now, this makes me curious. How would
such a message be given? The only way I see to pass the message without
revealing lots and lots of names to the first receiver would be writing
the message and putting it in an envelope. Then put that envelope with
another message that says: "Give this envelope to XXXX." in another
envelope. That second enveloped shoul be place inside another envelope
with another message with instructions to whom should be delivered. I
guess you get the idea... The packet could get really big if the number
of hearts the message must pass through is moderately high.
Dan Weiner
2005-07-29 11:55:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
<snip discussion about BA>
The whole concept of the BA structure is a big mess. IIRC, in the scene
were Alviarin has just been dismissed by Shaidar Haran, she starts
thinking how a message could go from her to another BA member
travelling from heart to heart. Now, this makes me curious. How would
such a message be given? The only way I see to pass the message without
revealing lots and lots of names to the first receiver would be writing
the message and putting it in an envelope. Then put that envelope with
another message that says: "Give this envelope to XXXX." in another
envelope. That second enveloped shoul be place inside another envelope
with another message with instructions to whom should be delivered. I
guess you get the idea... The packet could get really big if the number
of hearts the message must pass through is moderately high.
Alvie could simply send one message like this, to her "one other":

Read this message and send it to the three Blacks you know, unless you
recieved this message from one of your heartmates, in which case send
this message only to your "one other". If you have already done so,
disregard this message.

Makes for a much thinner envelope, no?
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Antonio Contreras
2005-07-29 12:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
<snip discussion about BA>
The whole concept of the BA structure is a big mess. IIRC, in the scene
were Alviarin has just been dismissed by Shaidar Haran, she starts
thinking how a message could go from her to another BA member
travelling from heart to heart. Now, this makes me curious. How would
such a message be given? The only way I see to pass the message without
revealing lots and lots of names to the first receiver would be writing
the message and putting it in an envelope. Then put that envelope with
another message that says: "Give this envelope to XXXX." in another
envelope. That second enveloped shoul be place inside another envelope
with another message with instructions to whom should be delivered. I
guess you get the idea... The packet could get really big if the number
of hearts the message must pass through is moderately high.
Read this message and send it to the three Blacks you know, unless you
recieved this message from one of your heartmates, in which case send
this message only to your "one other". If you have already done so,
disregard this message.
Makes for a much thinner envelope, no?
Wow!!! A selective flooding protocol implemented within the BA!!!

Yes it has its advantages. The message will arrive destiny by the
fastest route, no matter what. You needn't the big envelope. But it has
some great dissadvantge, all the members of the BA get to know the
message sooner or later and given their concern with secrecy it's not
very likely they would choose this method. Another problem is that if
the message must be written a *LOT* of copies must be made. Every copy
could be found or lost or intercepted, and that compromises the BA
secrets.

So, no, I think we can rule this out. Any more ideas?
Mark Erikson
2005-07-29 13:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
<snip discussion about BA>
The whole concept of the BA structure is a big mess. IIRC, in the scene
were Alviarin has just been dismissed by Shaidar Haran, she starts
thinking how a message could go from her to another BA member
travelling from heart to heart. Now, this makes me curious. How would
such a message be given? The only way I see to pass the message without
revealing lots and lots of names to the first receiver would be writing
the message and putting it in an envelope. Then put that envelope with
another message that says: "Give this envelope to XXXX." in another
envelope. That second enveloped shoul be place inside another envelope
with another message with instructions to whom should be delivered. I
guess you get the idea... The packet could get really big if the number
of hearts the message must pass through is moderately high.
Read this message and send it to the three Blacks you know, unless you
recieved this message from one of your heartmates, in which case send
this message only to your "one other". If you have already done so,
disregard this message.
Makes for a much thinner envelope, no?
Wow!!! A selective flooding protocol implemented within the BA!!!
Yes it has its advantages. The message will arrive destiny by the
fastest route, no matter what. You needn't the big envelope. But it has
some great dissadvantge, all the members of the BA get to know the
message sooner or later and given their concern with secrecy it's not
very likely they would choose this method. Another problem is that if
the message must be written a *LOT* of copies must be made. Every copy
could be found or lost or intercepted, and that compromises the BA
secrets.
Could it be possible that each member of the BA has their own cipher?
Alviarin may be the only one with access to all ciphers. Thus, she
simply sends out each message, trusting that only the one it is
intended for will be able to read it.

Otherwise it might look a little suspicious if every member of the
Black Ajah had a chest full of cipher books.

-Mark Erikson
Palpie
2005-07-29 17:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Erikson
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
<snip discussion about BA>
The whole concept of the BA structure is a big mess. IIRC, in the scene
were Alviarin has just been dismissed by Shaidar Haran, she starts
thinking how a message could go from her to another BA member
travelling from heart to heart. Now, this makes me curious. How would
such a message be given? The only way I see to pass the message without
revealing lots and lots of names to the first receiver would be writing
the message and putting it in an envelope. Then put that envelope with
another message that says: "Give this envelope to XXXX." in another
envelope. That second enveloped shoul be place inside another envelope
with another message with instructions to whom should be delivered. I
guess you get the idea... The packet could get really big if the number
of hearts the message must pass through is moderately high.
Read this message and send it to the three Blacks you know, unless you
recieved this message from one of your heartmates, in which case send
this message only to your "one other". If you have already done so,
disregard this message.
Makes for a much thinner envelope, no?
Wow!!! A selective flooding protocol implemented within the BA!!!
Yes it has its advantages. The message will arrive destiny by the
fastest route, no matter what. You needn't the big envelope. But it has
some great dissadvantge, all the members of the BA get to know the
message sooner or later and given their concern with secrecy it's not
very likely they would choose this method. Another problem is that if
the message must be written a *LOT* of copies must be made. Every copy
could be found or lost or intercepted, and that compromises the BA
secrets.
Could it be possible that each member of the BA has their own cipher?
Alviarin may be the only one with access to all ciphers. Thus, she
simply sends out each message, trusting that only the one it is
intended for will be able to read it.
Otherwise it might look a little suspicious if every member of the
Black Ajah had a chest full of cipher books.
Or they have new BA only 'names'. So she could give a list of 'names' to
the first person in the chain but they would only know their own name and
the next one.
Brian Roux
2005-07-29 22:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Palpie
Or they have new BA only 'names'. So she could give a list of 'names' to
the first person in the chain but they would only know their own name and
the next one.
Interesting point. Also, would the BA actually be able to contact other
hearts or would they only ever be sending communications to the council
and the council would be routing it from there. Being so secret, one
must assume they don't go around gossiping and mainly act on orders or
pass on observations to the council.

What about this senario?

Each BA has a code name, and four ciphers. Their own, their heart's,
their one other's, and the council's. This way any BA can communicate
with their heart, the council, and their one other, and the council can
communicate directly and privately with them through their own personal
cipher.

Messages would flow up to the council, and the council would then
retransmit the message or the answer to the appropriate party.

This would require a one or more people to have a substantial number of
ciphers (which we've seen), but would make for a secure method of
communications.

~ Brian
Tim Bruening
2005-12-13 05:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Roux
Post by Palpie
Or they have new BA only 'names'. So she could give a list of 'names' to
the first person in the chain but they would only know their own name and
the next one.
Interesting point. Also, would the BA actually be able to contact other
hearts or would they only ever be sending communications to the council
and the council would be routing it from there. Being so secret, one
must assume they don't go around gossiping and mainly act on orders or
pass on observations to the council.
What about this senario?
Each BA has a code name, and four ciphers. Their own, their heart's,
their one other's, and the council's. This way any BA can communicate
with their heart, the council, and their one other, and the council can
communicate directly and privately with them through their own personal
cipher.
Messages would flow up to the council, and the council would then
retransmit the message or the answer to the appropriate party.
This would require a one or more people to have a substantial number of
ciphers (which we've seen), but would make for a secure method of
communications.
I'm now imagining a BA computer LAN!
Tim Bruening
2006-04-25 07:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Roux
Post by Palpie
Or they have new BA only 'names'. So she could give a list of 'names' to
the first person in the chain but they would only know their own name and
the next one.
Interesting point. Also, would the BA actually be able to contact other
hearts or would they only ever be sending communications to the council
and the council would be routing it from there. Being so secret, one
must assume they don't go around gossiping and mainly act on orders or
pass on observations to the council.
What about this senario?
Each BA has a code name, and four ciphers. Their own, their heart's,
their one other's, and the council's. This way any BA can communicate
with their heart, the council, and their one other, and the council can
communicate directly and privately with them through their own personal
cipher.
Messages would flow up to the council, and the council would then
retransmit the message or the answer to the appropriate party.
This would require a one or more people to have a substantial number of
ciphers (which we've seen), but would make for a secure method of
communications.
I'm now imagining a BA computer LAN!
Chucky & Janica
2006-04-25 17:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:07:47 -0700 -
there was this guy, or something, called Tim Bruening
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by Brian Roux
Messages would flow up to the council, and the council would then
retransmit the message or the answer to the appropriate party.
This would require a one or more people to have a substantial number of
ciphers (which we've seen), but would make for a secure method of
communications.
I'm now imagining a BA computer LAN!
Would it have a stonelike interface?





C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Indigo Wombat
2005-07-29 17:34:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
<snip discussion about BA>
The whole concept of the BA structure is a big mess. IIRC, in the
scene were Alviarin has just been dismissed by Shaidar Haran, she
starts thinking how a message could go from her to another BA member
travelling from heart to heart. Now, this makes me curious. How
would such a message be given? The only way I see to pass the
message without revealing lots and lots of names to the first
receiver would be writing the message and putting it in an
"Give this envelope to XXXX." in another envelope. That second
enveloped shoul be place inside another envelope with another
message with instructions to whom should be delivered. I guess you
get the idea... The packet could get really big if the number of
hearts the message must pass through is moderately high.
Read this message and send it to the three Blacks you know, unless
you recieved this message from one of your heartmates, in which case
send this message only to your "one other". If you have already
done so, disregard this message.
Makes for a much thinner envelope, no?
Wow!!! A selective flooding protocol implemented within the BA!!!
Yes it has its advantages. The message will arrive destiny by the
fastest route, no matter what. You needn't the big envelope. But it
has some great dissadvantge, all the members of the BA get to know the
message sooner or later and given their concern with secrecy it's not
very likely they would choose this method. Another problem is that if
the message must be written a *LOT* of copies must be made. Every copy
could be found or lost or intercepted, and that compromises the BA
secrets.
So, no, I think we can rule this out. Any more ideas?
Yes.

The process is described in the book 11 prologue. [Embers ebook, p.87]:

"Quickly she stripped off the thin strips of paper wrapping the message
recovered from behind the tapestry, held them to a lamp flame and dropped
them into the bowl to burn. They were only directions as to where the
message was to be left, one meant for each woman in the chain, the extra
strips merely a way of disguising how many links the message had to go
through to reach its recipient."

So, a number of individually ciphered small paper strips surrounding the
message itself, each with a different cipher. Each BA who receives it reads
the one cipher they know, and takes it to one of the prearranged drop-off
points indicated in their instructions. I imagine there's a different
cipher for each heart in the Ajah. Still seems clumsy, but they appear to
believe that the security is worth the clumsiness. Hrm.

--
The Indigo Wombat
Marsupial of Might
Dan Weiner
2005-07-29 18:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
Yes it has its advantages. The message will arrive destiny by the
fastest route, no matter what. You needn't the big envelope. But it has
some great dissadvantge, all the members of the BA get to know the
message sooner or later and given their concern with secrecy it's not
very likely they would choose this method.
What? This was Alvie's goal; she wanted to spread a message among the BA.
Post by Antonio Contreras
Another problem is that if
the message must be written a *LOT* of copies must be made. Every copy
could be found or lost or intercepted, and that compromises the BA
secrets.
First of all, each person will write either 1 or 3 copies, which is not
that big a deal.

Secondly, they will destroy the one they received, so there won't be
copies floating around that aren't needed.

Third, even if one of the messages were intercepted, it would appear to
be simply a bunch of unintelligible ciphertext.

Finally, even if it were deciphered, the message does not have any names
on it, so who cares?
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Antonio Contreras
2005-07-29 19:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
Yes it has its advantages. The message will arrive destiny by the
fastest route, no matter what. You needn't the big envelope. But it has
some great dissadvantge, all the members of the BA get to know the
message sooner or later and given their concern with secrecy it's not
very likely they would choose this method.
What? This was Alvie's goal; she wanted to spread a message among the BA.
No, it wasn't. She wanted to send a message to Talene. Anyway, even if
that was the case, there would be times when a message should be sent
to a specific BA member and not to all of them, so it still would not
invalidate my point.
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
Another problem is that if
the message must be written a *LOT* of copies must be made. Every copy
could be found or lost or intercepted, and that compromises the BA
secrets.
First of all, each person will write either 1 or 3 copies, which is not
that big a deal.
Agreed.
Post by Dan Weiner
Secondly, they will destroy the one they received, so there won't be
copies floating around that aren't needed.
Partly agreed. Duplicating the message involves more risk. There are
many copies at once travelling through the tower, copies that could
fall on the wrong hands.
Post by Dan Weiner
Third, even if one of the messages were intercepted, it would appear to
be simply a bunch of unintelligible ciphertext.
I introduce you to a "science" called cryptanalisys.
Post by Dan Weiner
Finally, even if it were deciphered, the message does not have any names
on it, so who cares?
Yes, who would care if a message that proves the existence of the BA
(something they have managed to cover for thousands of years) falls in
the Amyrlin's hand.

And finally, Indigo Wombat has quoted some text from the KoD prologue
that shows the system used, which happens to be quite similar to what I
first suggested (without the envelopes, that is).
Dan Weiner
2005-07-30 00:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
I introduce you to a "science" called cryptanalisys.
Don't be silly. You can introduce me to lots of sciences that do not
appear in the Wheel of Time.
Post by Antonio Contreras
And finally, Indigo Wombat has quoted some text from the KoD prologue
that shows the system used, which happens to be quite similar to what I
first suggested (without the envelopes, that is).
Fair enough. :)
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Tim Bruening
2005-12-13 05:00:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
Yes it has its advantages. The message will arrive destiny by the
fastest route, no matter what. You needn't the big envelope. But it has
some great dissadvantge, all the members of the BA get to know the
message sooner or later and given their concern with secrecy it's not
very likely they would choose this method.
What? This was Alvie's goal; she wanted to spread a message among the BA.
No, it wasn't. She wanted to send a message to Talene. Anyway, even if
that was the case, there would be times when a message should be sent
to a specific BA member and not to all of them, so it still would not
invalidate my point.
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
Another problem is that if
the message must be written a *LOT* of copies must be made. Every copy
could be found or lost or intercepted, and that compromises the BA
secrets.
First of all, each person will write either 1 or 3 copies, which is not
that big a deal.
Agreed.
Post by Dan Weiner
Secondly, they will destroy the one they received, so there won't be
copies floating around that aren't needed.
Partly agreed. Duplicating the message involves more risk. There are
many copies at once travelling through the tower, copies that could
fall on the wrong hands.
Post by Dan Weiner
Third, even if one of the messages were intercepted, it would appear to
be simply a bunch of unintelligible ciphertext.
I introduce you to a "science" called cryptanalisys.
Post by Dan Weiner
Finally, even if it were deciphered, the message does not have any names
on it, so who cares?
Yes, who would care if a message that proves the existence of the BA
(something they have managed to cover for thousands of years) falls in
the Amyrlin's hand.
Or in the hands of Pevara!
Post by Antonio Contreras
And finally, Indigo Wombat has quoted some text from the KoD prologue
that shows the system used, which happens to be quite similar to what I
first suggested (without the envelopes, that is).
John Hamby
2005-07-29 15:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip>
Post by John Hamby
One thing that bothered me. In Pevara's pov, thinking/discussing the
wall they seem to have reached with their hunt, it mentions how at least
they have four and four names. Well the four they have are Talene,
Atuan, Marris and Karale. But Galina is considered dead. And it says
how Marris "one other" is out of the Tower. "as with the others".
So Atuan is Talene's "one other" but apparently Talene is not her's.
<snip>
<snip Temaile as fourth known BA name>
Yeah. Got that far. But I found it really odd that Atuan's one other
is not Talene. Meaning that the one other has no idea who knows her.
Which is what I found odd. It also means that the communcitation betwen
hearts can only go one way. Atuan cannot contact Talene knowingly,
though Talene could contact her. Its a weird way to organize if you ask me.
I see now. It does indeed seem to make for awkward and laborious
communication within the BA.
It also seems to pretty nullify the "one other" as a means of keeping a
BA in the loop if the rest of her heart just up and leaves the Tower
or dies. Or gets hunted down and subverted. Which is maybe the point.
But that might be giving Jordan way too much credit.
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
It does raise the issue of Katerine being Galina's one other and not
just a perk Galina enjoys being on the Supreme Council.
Didn't Galina only learn that Katerine was BA only a few hours after
they left the Tower, on the way to Cairhien? So I don't think she was
Galina's 'one other', unless somehow Galina didn't have a 'plus one'
before the mission for some reason (which I think unlikely, since she
was on the Council, she probably was top of the list to get a
replacement if her 'plus one' died).
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".

Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).
I assume that the secret hand signal was used in the case of Elza and
Fera. I believe though that Katerine was told of Galina's affilition
the day before they actually departed the Tower. So it seems it might
have been an sanctioned inclusion.
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The fact that Elza and Fera did so in the Aiel Camp, makes me think the
BA in the rebel camp have likely done so as well. It might simply be
that the Oath the BA take make for the same equivocation as the tell no
lie does for the non-BA AS. In order to be able to flash the sign, you
have to believe the very safety of the BA is at issue. Dependent on the
belief of the individual. Elza and Fera are a rather extreme situation.
So maybe they could justify it whereas the BA in the rebel camp might
not.

Interesting that Alviarin seems to have no communication with the BA in
the rebel camp (just like Elaida she is woefully ignorant about issues
that are incredibly important when dealing with a rebellion -- healing
of stilling, Traveling, the making of cuellindar, the true political
machinations in Egwene's Hall etc.). And the structure of the BA such
that unless they go around flashing hand signs to each other, any and
all BA in the rebel camp are seriously isolated and basically rendered
useless. This is enforced by the fact that the whereabouts of Marris'
other being a matter of speculation (and perhaps being a Blue, thus the
immediate assumption she might be with the rebels; or just a sister well
known for having fled the Tower and adhering to Siuan or the general
cause?) as opposed to fact. At this point it seems odd that if Nicola
can slip into the Tower (she did not seem to Travel in as we know COT
that there is an effort to prevent her learning that and the Tower does
not seem to have that knowledge yet as of the prologue), and Elaida or
the Ajahs not have spies in the camp of some sort. Not to mention that
Tarna should have returned with a voluminous listing of every sister she
can remember in the rebel camp and passed that on to Elaida and the Hall
by now.

---
JSH
Neil Anderson
2005-07-29 18:15:52 UTC
Permalink
John Hamby wrote:
<snip huge chunk>
Post by John Hamby
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".
Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
I suspect that Katerin's POV may be retro-fitted in later editiions -
either the "only two" comment will be adjusted to "only the two in her
heart" or changed to "only three". I suspect that passage in LOC was
written at a time when RJ had not considered the full details of the BA
structure.
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).
I assume that the secret hand signal was used in the case of Elza and
Fera. I believe though that Katerine was told of Galina's affilition
the day before they actually departed the Tower. So it seems it might
have been an sanctioned inclusion.
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The fact that Elza and Fera did so in the Aiel Camp, makes me think the
BA in the rebel camp have likely done so as well. It might simply be
that the Oath the BA take make for the same equivocation as the tell no
lie does for the non-BA AS. In order to be able to flash the sign, you
have to believe the very safety of the BA is at issue. Dependent on the
belief of the individual. Elza and Fera are a rather extreme situation.
So maybe they could justify it whereas the BA in the rebel camp might
not.
Yes, the Salidar AS are still considering themselves the Tower (or part
thereof), and so the BA with the rebels probably are till trying to
function as normal, despite being hobbled by the loony 'heart plus one'
structure, and half of the membership in the Tower, or at leas not in
Salidar. In Rand's groups of affiliated AS -

- Dumai Wells prisoners; and
- Salidar embassy (there are no BA with the Black Tower bondees,
Alviarin made sure none went on the suicide mission) -

I can see that the BA membership resorting to 'emergency measures', and
sticking thumbs through fingers at every sister, since they are in such
extraordinary circumstances.

There is one more circumstance of BA finding other BA - Marillin
Gemalphin knows that one of the sisters in the palace in Caemlyn is BA.
Of course, we don't know if she knows the NAME of the sister, she may
merely just know of the existence of one. Perhaps there is a message
drop somewhere in the city that Mar Gem has visited and recently found
a message in. Or a BA eyes-and-ears in the city has told her of a
recent visit from another sister. Maybe Mar Gem has even just lucked
out, and one of the sisters in her 'heart plus one' happens to be one
of Elayne's companion. If it is the last of these, I think we could
rule out Vandene as the BA, since she has retired from the Tower.

<snip to end>

Neil Anderson
John Hamby
2005-07-30 16:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip huge chunk>
Post by John Hamby
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".
Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
I suspect that Katerin's POV may be retro-fitted in later editiions -
either the "only two" comment will be adjusted to "only the two in her
heart" or changed to "only three". I suspect that passage in LOC was
written at a time when RJ had not considered the full details of the BA
structure.
To be honest, I assumed that Jordan was still figuring out the BA
structure then as well. But it still allows room for Leane, so I'll
take it just in case it turns out the three as mentioned earlier in the
series was not just a guess on his part.
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).
I assume that the secret hand signal was used in the case of Elza and
Fera. I believe though that Katerine was told of Galina's affilition
the day before they actually departed the Tower. So it seems it might
have been an sanctioned inclusion.
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The fact that Elza and Fera did so in the Aiel Camp, makes me think the
BA in the rebel camp have likely done so as well. It might simply be
that the Oath the BA take make for the same equivocation as the tell no
lie does for the non-BA AS. In order to be able to flash the sign, you
have to believe the very safety of the BA is at issue. Dependent on the
belief of the individual. Elza and Fera are a rather extreme situation.
So maybe they could justify it whereas the BA in the rebel camp might
not.
Yes, the Salidar AS are still considering themselves the Tower (or part
thereof), and so the BA with the rebels probably are till trying to
function as normal, despite being hobbled by the loony 'heart plus one'
structure, and half of the membership in the Tower, or at leas not in
Salidar. In Rand's groups of affiliated AS -
- Dumai Wells prisoners; and
- Salidar embassy (there are no BA with the Black Tower bondees,
Alviarin made sure none went on the suicide mission) -
I can see that the BA membership resorting to 'emergency measures', and
sticking thumbs through fingers at every sister, since they are in such
extraordinary circumstances.
If the BA in Salidar haven't taken it upon themselves to re-group in
some workable fashion then Jordan needs to be remanded to writing quips
for Reader's Digest. I wonder how much power and authority a Supreme
Council member has on her own. I tend to think that for the BA to
survive the death of their leader unexpectedly (like Jarna's), the
Supreme Council members might know all the hearts directly under
themselves. I cannot imagine that at least one Blue was not on the
Supreme Council at the time of the split (my bet is Anaiya of course).
It could be that Alviarin, seeing the split and covering her bases, made
sure that non-Red BA members whose hearts were below / attached to the
Supreme Council members that had to flee also took a hike. It might be
why Delana became a rebel. And it would allow those higher up to have a
least a few sisters other than in their own Ajah (and seemingly removed
a level or two as we have not seen a heart yet with same-Ajah members)
to try and keep control over.
Post by Neil Anderson
There is one more circumstance of BA finding other BA - Marillin
Gemalphin knows that one of the sisters in the palace in Caemlyn is BA.
Of course, we don't know if she knows the NAME of the sister, she may
merely just know of the existence of one. Perhaps there is a message
drop somewhere in the city that Mar Gem has visited and recently found
a message in. Or a BA eyes-and-ears in the city has told her of a
recent visit from another sister. Maybe Mar Gem has even just lucked
out, and one of the sisters in her 'heart plus one' happens to be one
of Elayne's companion. If it is the last of these, I think we could
rule out Vandene as the BA, since she has retired from the Tower.
I'm not sure how much input Marillin had from Falion before that scene.
She might have some. With Falion being in Ebou Dar and seemingly
tipped off by whichever one is the BA in the group as to the fatal but
ultimatel rewarding trip to the Rahad, it might be that she had told
Marillin who was with Elayne and their affiliation. Which does not
leave out Vandene. And I think even if that were so, its not a _huge_
stretch that Vandene be a retired bA, and Marillin happened to know her
when. Asne is 150 years wearing the shawl and Eldrith hadn't been to
the inn in Caemlyn in several decades. So I think Marillin could have
known Vandene when she was an active badass.

However the first scenario of Falion somehow telling Marillin is
probably the key to her knowing. It might be too that the BA use
signals of the same sort that the Ajahs use for their eyes and ears.
That would seem more likely a way to eliminate Vandene as she is not out
of the Royal Palace much if ever that we know. Not like Careane and
Sareitha.

---
JSH
Neil Anderson
2005-07-30 18:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip huge chunk>
<snip Katerine, Galina, Fera, Elza>
There is one more circumstance of BA finding other BA - Marillin
Gemalphin knows that one of the sisters in the palace in Caemlyn is BA.
Of course, we don't know if she knows the NAME of the sister, she may
merely just know of the existence of one. Perhaps there is a message
drop somewhere in the city that Mar Gem has visited and recently found
a message in. Or a BA eyes-and-ears in the city has told her of a
recent visit from another sister. Maybe Mar Gem has even just lucked
out, and one of the sisters in her 'heart plus one' happens to be one
of Elayne's companion. If it is the last of these, I think we could
rule out Vandene as the BA, since she has retired from the Tower.
I'm not sure how much input Marillin had from Falion before that scene.
She might have some. With Falion being in Ebou Dar and seemingly
tipped off by whichever one is the BA in the group as to the fatal but
ultimatel rewarding trip to the Rahad, it might be that she had told
Marillin who was with Elayne and their affiliation. Which does not
leave out Vandene. And I think even if that were so, its not a _huge_
stretch that Vandene be a retired bA, and Marillin happened to know her
when. Asne is 150 years wearing the shawl and Eldrith hadn't been to
the inn in Caemlyn in several decades. So I think Marillin could have
known Vandene when she was an active badass.
Oh bugger. I had forgotten of course that Falion had accompanied the
AS all the way from Ebou Dar. I guess who knew what when depends on
the timing of Falion becoming Shiaine's indentured servant, and Shiaine
being given the services of Marillin as well. It looks increasingly
like I need to do a reread of the past couple of books to get back up
to speed before KoD.

God, just writing those words makes me blench. Can I face all the
Perrin/Faile/Elayne kaka all over again.
Post by John Hamby
However the first scenario of Falion somehow telling Marillin is
probably the key to her knowing. It might be too that the BA use
signals of the same sort that the Ajahs use for their eyes and ears.
That would seem more likely a way to eliminate Vandene as she is not out
of the Royal Palace much if ever that we know. Not like Careane and
Sareitha.
Yes the evidence is mounting against either Careane or Sareitha. My
money is on Careane, simply because the cirumstantial evidence points
to Sareitha (urgent errands out of the Palace, wandering the streets at
night in Caemlyn).

Neil Anderson
Tim Bruening
2005-12-13 05:07:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip huge chunk>
Post by John Hamby
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".
Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
I suspect that Katerin's POV may be retro-fitted in later editiions -
either the "only two" comment will be adjusted to "only the two in her
heart" or changed to "only three". I suspect that passage in LOC was
written at a time when RJ had not considered the full details of the BA
structure.
To be honest, I assumed that Jordan was still figuring out the BA
structure then as well. But it still allows room for Leane, so I'll
take it just in case it turns out the three as mentioned earlier in the
series was not just a guess on his part.
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).
I assume that the secret hand signal was used in the case of Elza and
Fera. I believe though that Katerine was told of Galina's affilition
the day before they actually departed the Tower. So it seems it might
have been an sanctioned inclusion.
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The fact that Elza and Fera did so in the Aiel Camp, makes me think the
BA in the rebel camp have likely done so as well. It might simply be
that the Oath the BA take make for the same equivocation as the tell no
lie does for the non-BA AS. In order to be able to flash the sign, you
have to believe the very safety of the BA is at issue. Dependent on the
belief of the individual. Elza and Fera are a rather extreme situation.
So maybe they could justify it whereas the BA in the rebel camp might
not.
Yes, the Salidar AS are still considering themselves the Tower (or part
thereof), and so the BA with the rebels probably are till trying to
function as normal, despite being hobbled by the loony 'heart plus one'
structure, and half of the membership in the Tower, or at leas not in
Salidar. In Rand's groups of affiliated AS -
- Dumai Wells prisoners; and
- Salidar embassy (there are no BA with the Black Tower bondees,
Alviarin made sure none went on the suicide mission) -
I can see that the BA membership resorting to 'emergency measures', and
sticking thumbs through fingers at every sister, since they are in such
extraordinary circumstances.
If the BA in Salidar haven't taken it upon themselves to re-group in
some workable fashion then Jordan needs to be remanded to writing quips
for Reader's Digest. I wonder how much power and authority a Supreme
Council member has on her own. I tend to think that for the BA to
survive the death of their leader unexpectedly (like Jarna's), the
Supreme Council members might know all the hearts directly under
themselves. I cannot imagine that at least one Blue was not on the
Supreme Council at the time of the split (my bet is Anaiya of course).
It could be that Alviarin, seeing the split and covering her bases, made
sure that non-Red BA members whose hearts were below / attached to the
Supreme Council members that had to flee also took a hike. It might be
why Delana became a rebel. And it would allow those higher up to have a
least a few sisters other than in their own Ajah (and seemingly removed
a level or two as we have not seen a heart yet with same-Ajah members)
to try and keep control over.
Alvairin was Elaida's first supporter, so she would have anticipated the split
and made preparations.
Tim Bruening
2005-12-13 04:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip huge chunk>
Post by John Hamby
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".
Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
I suspect that Katerin's POV may be retro-fitted in later editiions -
either the "only two" comment will be adjusted to "only the two in her
heart" or changed to "only three". I suspect that passage in LOC was
written at a time when RJ had not considered the full details of the BA
structure.
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).
I assume that the secret hand signal was used in the case of Elza and
Fera. I believe though that Katerine was told of Galina's affilition
the day before they actually departed the Tower. So it seems it might
have been an sanctioned inclusion.
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The fact that Elza and Fera did so in the Aiel Camp, makes me think the
BA in the rebel camp have likely done so as well. It might simply be
that the Oath the BA take make for the same equivocation as the tell no
lie does for the non-BA AS. In order to be able to flash the sign, you
have to believe the very safety of the BA is at issue. Dependent on the
belief of the individual. Elza and Fera are a rather extreme situation.
So maybe they could justify it whereas the BA in the rebel camp might
not.
Yes, the Salidar AS are still considering themselves the Tower (or part
thereof), and so the BA with the rebels probably are till trying to
function as normal, despite being hobbled by the loony 'heart plus one'
structure, and half of the membership in the Tower, or at leas not in
Salidar. In Rand's groups of affiliated AS -
- Dumai Wells prisoners; and
- Salidar embassy (there are no BA with the Black Tower bondees,
Alviarin made sure none went on the suicide mission) -
I can see that the BA membership resorting to 'emergency measures', and
sticking thumbs through fingers at every sister, since they are in such
extraordinary circumstances.
I assume that the BA hunters in the Tower would have made their captives tell
them the BA recognition symbol. The BA hunters could then flash that symbol
at every sister they meet, and zap with the Oath Rod any sisters who respond
with the BA symbol.
Tim Bruening
2006-04-25 07:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip huge chunk>
Post by John Hamby
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".
Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
I suspect that Katerin's POV may be retro-fitted in later editiions -
either the "only two" comment will be adjusted to "only the two in her
heart" or changed to "only three". I suspect that passage in LOC was
written at a time when RJ had not considered the full details of the BA
structure.
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).
I assume that the secret hand signal was used in the case of Elza and
Fera. I believe though that Katerine was told of Galina's affilition
the day before they actually departed the Tower. So it seems it might
have been an sanctioned inclusion.
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The fact that Elza and Fera did so in the Aiel Camp, makes me think the
BA in the rebel camp have likely done so as well. It might simply be
that the Oath the BA take make for the same equivocation as the tell no
lie does for the non-BA AS. In order to be able to flash the sign, you
have to believe the very safety of the BA is at issue. Dependent on the
belief of the individual. Elza and Fera are a rather extreme situation.
So maybe they could justify it whereas the BA in the rebel camp might
not.
Yes, the Salidar AS are still considering themselves the Tower (or part
thereof), and so the BA with the rebels probably are till trying to
function as normal, despite being hobbled by the loony 'heart plus one'
structure, and half of the membership in the Tower, or at leas not in
Salidar. In Rand's groups of affiliated AS -
- Dumai Wells prisoners; and
- Salidar embassy (there are no BA with the Black Tower bondees,
Alviarin made sure none went on the suicide mission) -
I can see that the BA membership resorting to 'emergency measures', and
sticking thumbs through fingers at every sister, since they are in such
extraordinary circumstances.
I assume that the BA hunters in the Tower would have made their captives
tell
them the BA recognition symbol. The BA hunters could then flash that
symbol
at every sister they meet, and zap with the Oath Rod any sisters who
respond
with the BA symbol.
Tim Bruening
2006-10-21 07:20:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip huge chunk>
Post by John Hamby
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".
Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
I suspect that Katerin's POV may be retro-fitted in later editiions -
either the "only two" comment will be adjusted to "only the two in her
heart" or changed to "only three". I suspect that passage in LOC was
written at a time when RJ had not considered the full details of the BA
structure.
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).
I assume that the secret hand signal was used in the case of Elza and
Fera. I believe though that Katerine was told of Galina's affilition
the day before they actually departed the Tower. So it seems it might
have been an sanctioned inclusion.
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The fact that Elza and Fera did so in the Aiel Camp, makes me think the
BA in the rebel camp have likely done so as well. It might simply be
that the Oath the BA take make for the same equivocation as the tell no
lie does for the non-BA AS. In order to be able to flash the sign, you
have to believe the very safety of the BA is at issue. Dependent on the
belief of the individual. Elza and Fera are a rather extreme situation.
So maybe they could justify it whereas the BA in the rebel camp might
not.
Yes, the Salidar AS are still considering themselves the Tower (or part
thereof), and so the BA with the rebels probably are till trying to
function as normal, despite being hobbled by the loony 'heart plus one'
structure, and half of the membership in the Tower, or at leas not in
Salidar. In Rand's groups of affiliated AS -
- Dumai Wells prisoners; and
- Salidar embassy (there are no BA with the Black Tower bondees,
Alviarin made sure none went on the suicide mission) -
I can see that the BA membership resorting to 'emergency measures', and
sticking thumbs through fingers at every sister, since they are in such
extraordinary circumstances.
I assume that the BA hunters in the Tower would have made their captives
tell
them the BA recognition symbol. The BA hunters could then flash that
symbol
at every sister they meet, and zap with the Oath Rod any sisters who
respond
with the BA symbol.
Tim Bruening
2007-12-28 13:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip huge chunk>
Post by John Hamby
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".
Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
I suspect that Katerin's POV may be retro-fitted in later editiions -
either the "only two" comment will be adjusted to "only the two in her
heart" or changed to "only three". I suspect that passage in LOC was
written at a time when RJ had not considered the full details of the BA
structure.
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).
I assume that the secret hand signal was used in the case of Elza and
Fera. I believe though that Katerine was told of Galina's affilition
the day before they actually departed the Tower. So it seems it might
have been an sanctioned inclusion.
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The fact that Elza and Fera did so in the Aiel Camp, makes me think the
BA in the rebel camp have likely done so as well. It might simply be
that the Oath the BA take make for the same equivocation as the tell no
lie does for the non-BA AS. In order to be able to flash the sign, you
have to believe the very safety of the BA is at issue. Dependent on the
belief of the individual. Elza and Fera are a rather extreme situation.
So maybe they could justify it whereas the BA in the rebel camp might
not.
Yes, the Salidar AS are still considering themselves the Tower (or part
thereof), and so the BA with the rebels probably are till trying to
function as normal, despite being hobbled by the loony 'heart plus one'
structure, and half of the membership in the Tower, or at leas not in
Salidar. In Rand's groups of affiliated AS -
- Dumai Wells prisoners; and
- Salidar embassy (there are no BA with the Black Tower bondees,
Alviarin made sure none went on the suicide mission) -
I can see that the BA membership resorting to 'emergency measures', and
sticking thumbs through fingers at every sister, since they are in such
extraordinary circumstances.
I assume that the BA hunters in the Tower would have made their captives
tell them the BA recognition symbol. The BA hunters could then flash
that symbol at every sister they meet, and zap with the Oath Rod any
sisters who respond with the BA symbol.
Tim Bruening
2010-03-23 19:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip huge chunk>
Post by John Hamby
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".
Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
I suspect that Katerin's POV may be retro-fitted in later editiions -
either the "only two" comment will be adjusted to "only the two in her
heart" or changed to "only three". I suspect that passage in LOC was
written at a time when RJ had not considered the full details of the BA
structure.
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
The fact that Elza and Fera exchanged secret signals means they can go
outside the heart if need be.
Maybe Fera and Elza used the same system as Katerine and Galina to
identify one another. The same thing that Halima did when she first
met Delana perhaps (closed fist, thumb sticking between two fingers or
something).
I assume that the secret hand signal was used in the case of Elza and
Fera. I believe though that Katerine was told of Galina's affilition
the day before they actually departed the Tower. So it seems it might
have been an sanctioned inclusion.
Post by Neil Anderson
Now I am getting curious about what the BA Council does to sisters who
uncover/meet another BA outside their 'heart plus one'. Presumably
there is some painful punishment involved, handed down by the BA
Council, and steps taken to eliminate the issue (which would be rather
wasteful of BA members).
The fact that Elza and Fera did so in the Aiel Camp, makes me think the
BA in the rebel camp have likely done so as well. It might simply be
that the Oath the BA take make for the same equivocation as the tell no
lie does for the non-BA AS. In order to be able to flash the sign, you
have to believe the very safety of the BA is at issue. Dependent on the
belief of the individual. Elza and Fera are a rather extreme situation.
So maybe they could justify it whereas the BA in the rebel camp might
not.
Yes, the Salidar AS are still considering themselves the Tower (or part
thereof), and so the BA with the rebels probably are till trying to
function as normal, despite being hobbled by the loony 'heart plus one'
structure, and half of the membership in the Tower, or at leas not in
Salidar. In Rand's groups of affiliated AS -
- Dumai Wells prisoners; and
- Salidar embassy (there are no BA with the Black Tower bondees,
Alviarin made sure none went on the suicide mission) -
I can see that the BA membership resorting to 'emergency measures', and
sticking thumbs through fingers at every sister, since they are in such
extraordinary circumstances.
I assume that the BA hunters in the Tower would have made their captives
tell them the BA recognition symbol. The BA hunters could then flash
that symbol at every sister they meet, and zap with the Oath Rod any
sisters who respond with the BA symbol.

I also expect that the BA hunters would have made their captives tell
them the BA oaths.

Ash
2005-07-29 21:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip>
Post by John Hamby
One thing that bothered me. In Pevara's pov, thinking/discussing the
wall they seem to have reached with their hunt, it mentions how at least
they have four and four names. Well the four they have are Talene,
Atuan, Marris and Karale. But Galina is considered dead. And it says
how Marris "one other" is out of the Tower. "as with the others".
So Atuan is Talene's "one other" but apparently Talene is not her's.
<snip>
<snip Temaile as fourth known BA name>
Yeah. Got that far. But I found it really odd that Atuan's one other
is not Talene. Meaning that the one other has no idea who knows her.
Which is what I found odd. It also means that the communcitation betwen
hearts can only go one way. Atuan cannot contact Talene knowingly,
though Talene could contact her. Its a weird way to organize if you ask me.
I see now. It does indeed seem to make for awkward and laborious
communication within the BA.
It also seems to pretty nullify the "one other" as a means of keeping a
BA in the loop if the rest of her heart just up and leaves the Tower
or dies. Or gets hunted down and subverted. Which is maybe the point.
But that might be giving Jordan way too much credit.
Post by Neil Anderson
Post by John Hamby
It does raise the issue of Katerine being Galina's one other and not
just a perk Galina enjoys being on the Supreme Council.
Didn't Galina only learn that Katerine was BA only a few hours after
they left the Tower, on the way to Cairhien? So I don't think she was
Galina's 'one other', unless somehow Galina didn't have a 'plus one'
before the mission for some reason (which I think unlikely, since she
was on the Council, she probably was top of the list to get a
replacement if her 'plus one' died).
Katerine was told by Galina. We don't see it from Galina's pov. so we
don't know if Alviarin simply passed on info to Galina as to who the
other BA were and it was decided that being in the initial "embassy"
group, Katerine should know. Or if Galina was simply tapping her "one
other" on the shoulder asking "guess who". Or it might be that members
of the Supreme Council are aware of larger segments within the BA than
just a heart and "one other".
Katerine on the other hand is the oddball with only two BA known to her,
both back at the Tower (and presumably stil there if Alviarin managed to
keep all BA back from the Black Tower strike force). My looney theory
is that Leane was Katerine's third (whether heart or one other) but is
dismissed by Katerine now in her thoughts, being stilled the equivalent
of being dead.
Can Amico's words be trusted? "Before I left the Tower, I knew only
Linadrin, Chesmal and Rianna. No one knew more than two or three others,
I think. Except Liandrin"
Scott Carlson
2005-07-29 23:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Can Amico's words be trusted? "Before I left the Tower, I knew only
Linadrin, Chesmal and Rianna. No one knew more than two or three others,
I think. Except Liandrin"
Whether they can or not, that quote doesn't conflict with the heart+1
organization, assuming that Liandrin gets the full list from the Council
in order to do a roll call. Heck, if you assume that the 13 was 4
contiguous hearts, you can even take the stricter interpretation of "No
one knew more than two or three others *with us*..." since she's listing
the ones she knew that were also revealed by their departure. That
stricter interpretation of what she says (bolstered by an assumption
that's not outlandish -- why send away a bunch of BA who don't already
know as many of the others with them as possible when you're entire
organization goes to painstaking measures to prevent large numbers of BA
knowing the identities of several of their ranks) could mean that
Chesmal and Rianna are Amico's heart-mates, Liandrin's her "one other",
and then the other nine are three other hearts that include 3 "one
other" link overlaps between them.

Inclusion of whole hearts dictated by some of the one-others would mean
that all the BA in Liandrin's 13 (except for one, Liandrin, who could
have been given a master list to the other 12) would know either two
others in the 13 (only their heartmates), or three others (their
heartmates, as before, but with a one other in one of the other hearts
present).

Unless, of course, we know of more than 5 people ID'd in the BA hunt as
having a Liandrin posse as their one other, or any of them that have
them as heartmates, which would invalidate the 4 whole-but contiguous
heart theory.
--
-Scott-
Ash
2005-07-30 09:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Carlson
Post by Ash
Can Amico's words be trusted? "Before I left the Tower, I knew only
Linadrin, Chesmal and Rianna. No one knew more than two or three
others, I think. Except Liandrin"
Whether they can or not, that quote doesn't conflict with the heart+1
organization, assuming that Liandrin gets the full list from the Council
in order to do a roll call. Heck, if you assume that the 13 was 4
contiguous hearts, you can even take the stricter interpretation of "No
one knew more than two or three others *with us*..." since she's listing
the ones she knew that were also revealed by their departure. That
stricter interpretation of what she says (bolstered by an assumption
that's not outlandish -- why send away a bunch of BA who don't already
know as many of the others with them as possible when you're entire
organization goes to painstaking measures to prevent large numbers of BA
knowing the identities of several of their ranks) could mean that
Chesmal and Rianna are Amico's heart-mates, Liandrin's her "one other",
and then the other nine are three other hearts that include 3 "one
other" link overlaps between them.
Inclusion of whole hearts dictated by some of the one-others would mean
that all the BA in Liandrin's 13 (except for one, Liandrin, who could
have been given a master list to the other 12) would know either two
others in the 13 (only their heartmates), or three others (their
heartmates, as before, but with a one other in one of the other hearts
present).
Unless, of course, we know of more than 5 people ID'd in the BA hunt as
having a Liandrin posse as their one other, or any of them that have
them as heartmates, which would invalidate the 4 whole-but contiguous
heart theory.
That almost works, but Temaile was part of Talene's heart (along with
Galina). Including hearts would seem to make sense, they could have
used four hearts plus one, but why Temaile (in this case, Atuan is
specified as the one more)
Amico was also very young. Would she have replaced a recently deceased
BA? Which raisex the point, what if a BA retires, does the heart take on
someone new, and if so, what if they return?
Tim Bruening
2005-12-13 05:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Post by Scott Carlson
Post by Ash
Can Amico's words be trusted? "Before I left the Tower, I knew only
Linadrin, Chesmal and Rianna. No one knew more than two or three
others, I think. Except Liandrin"
Whether they can or not, that quote doesn't conflict with the heart+1
organization, assuming that Liandrin gets the full list from the Council
in order to do a roll call. Heck, if you assume that the 13 was 4
contiguous hearts, you can even take the stricter interpretation of "No
one knew more than two or three others *with us*..." since she's listing
the ones she knew that were also revealed by their departure. That
stricter interpretation of what she says (bolstered by an assumption
that's not outlandish -- why send away a bunch of BA who don't already
know as many of the others with them as possible when you're entire
organization goes to painstaking measures to prevent large numbers of BA
knowing the identities of several of their ranks) could mean that
Chesmal and Rianna are Amico's heart-mates, Liandrin's her "one other",
and then the other nine are three other hearts that include 3 "one
other" link overlaps between them.
Inclusion of whole hearts dictated by some of the one-others would mean
that all the BA in Liandrin's 13 (except for one, Liandrin, who could
have been given a master list to the other 12) would know either two
others in the 13 (only their heartmates), or three others (their
heartmates, as before, but with a one other in one of the other hearts
present).
Unless, of course, we know of more than 5 people ID'd in the BA hunt as
having a Liandrin posse as their one other, or any of them that have
them as heartmates, which would invalidate the 4 whole-but contiguous
heart theory.
That almost works, but Temaile was part of Talene's heart (along with
Galina). Including hearts would seem to make sense, they could have
used four hearts plus one, but why Temaile (in this case, Atuan is
specified as the one more)
Amico was also very young. Would she have replaced a recently deceased
BA? Which raisex the point, what if a BA retires, does the heart take on
someone new, and if so, what if they return?
How would a BA be allowed to retire?
John Hamby
2005-07-30 15:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ash
Can Amico's words be trusted? "Before I left the Tower, I knew only
Linadrin, Chesmal and Rianna. No one knew more than two or three
others, I think. Except Liandrin"
Not my words, there, Scott. Be more careful next time in attributing
the quotes. Thanks. I think it has something to do with servers as
Ash's quotations are totally lost in Google.

---
JSH
Scott Carlson
2005-08-04 22:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hamby
Post by Ash
Can Amico's words be trusted? "Before I left the Tower, I knew only
Linadrin, Chesmal and Rianna. No one knew more than two or three
others, I think. Except Liandrin"
Not my words, there, Scott. Be more careful next time in attributing
the quotes. Thanks. I think it has something to do with servers as
Ash's quotations are totally lost in Google.
---
JSH
I beg pardon. Yeah, it looks like I was hasty in my trimming, and missed
a name.
--
-Scott-
ioanna
2005-07-30 18:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Carlson
Post by Ash
Can Amico's words be trusted? "Before I left the Tower, I knew only
Linadrin, Chesmal and Rianna. No one knew more than two or three others,
I think. Except Liandrin"
Whether they can or not, that quote doesn't conflict with the heart+1
organization, assuming that Liandrin gets the full list from the Council
in order to do a roll call. Heck, if you assume that the 13 was 4
contiguous hearts, you can even take the stricter interpretation of "No
one knew more than two or three others *with us*..." since she's listing
the ones she knew that were also revealed by their departure. That
stricter interpretation of what she says (bolstered by an assumption
that's not outlandish -- why send away a bunch of BA who don't already
know as many of the others with them as possible when you're entire
organization goes to painstaking measures to prevent large numbers of BA
knowing the identities of several of their ranks) could mean that
Chesmal and Rianna are Amico's heart-mates, Liandrin's her "one other",
and then the other nine are three other hearts that include 3 "one
other" link overlaps between them.
Yes, but what about Temaile? (Her heart is Talene and Galina). So the 4
whole hearts plus Liandrin, can not be correct. (There could be at most
3 whole hearts). I do not think that RJ had thought beforehand how
exactly the BA system works (eg. Galina knowing only 2 others, back in
aCoS). However Amico's words do fit the latest '2 plus one other' rule.
However who is her one other, and who are her heart-mates? In the
begining I thought Liandrin was the one other, but now I think is the
other Yellow Chesmal.(Liandrin has a heart (as does even Alviarin), so
why not Amico and one of Chesmal/Rianna? Also it makes sense (?) that
Liandrin took BAs from separate hearts (ala Temaile), with the only
exception that she took her own 2 heart-mates with her. So Liandrin's
own, is the only whole heart. Rather than Temaile (and 2 more) being
the only "heart-less" ones. Liandrin being the only Red and in charge,
stands out anyway. Temaile does not. I don't know if this sort of
reasoning makes any sense..)

Anyway, it is likely that back then (when the 13 left the Tower) RJ had
not decided there would be Hearts of 3, where each one knows 'one
more', so trying to figure out what the pattern in their heart
structure is may be a dead end
Rich
2005-08-06 17:18:34 UTC
Permalink
When was the "heart" concept first revealed?
Ramon K. Kailly
2005-07-31 18:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Anderson
<snip>
Post by John Hamby
One thing that bothered me. In Pevara's pov, thinking/discussing the
wall they seem to have reached with their hunt, it mentions how at least
they have four and four names. Well the four they have are Talene,
Atuan, Marris and Karale. But Galina is considered dead. And it says
how Marris "one other" is out of the Tower. "as with the others".
So Atuan is Talene's "one other" but apparently Talene is not her's.
<snip>
The fourth name they have is that of Temaile Kinderode, one of
Liandrian's thirteen and now in Andor.
I checked back in Glimmers to see what we learn there what the BA
hunters learn from questioning Talene.
On pp44 of the hardback, Yukiri is watching Atuan and Pritalle talk to
each other. "Atuan Larisett was one of the only three Black sisters
that Talene knew". Then on p45 we find Yukiri thinking of the fury
of Pevara when learning that Galina is BA, and her own "cold
detachment when Temaile Kinderode was named". Since at that point
the BA hunters had only questioned Talene, the three she must have
named are Temaile, Galina and Atuan.
Thus -
Talene's heart is her, Galina (red) and Temaile (grey). Her
"other" is Atuan.
Atuan's heart is her, Karale Sanghir (grey) and Marris Thornhill
(brown). Her other is unknown to us, but the BA hunters have the
(Embers).
Karale's "other" and Marris' "other" are unnamed, but
Marris' is stated to be outside the Tower "as are the others".
The four names they have are therefore Temaile, Atuan's other,
Karale's other and Marris' other. Obviously each of the three
unnamed others can't be the same person, both because the BA hunters
have four names, and because of the rules of the BA (everyone knows
their heart plus one).
So we have two things here that seem to indirectly point to the idea
that Talene is not Atuan's one other. These are both statements about
a certain set of AS, and Atuan's one other needs to be included in
order for the statements to make sense: 1) the "four names" in
Pevara's POV, and Yukiri's statement "Marris broke this morning...as
with the others, her 'one other' is out of the Tower".

The fact that Galina is thought to be dead by Pevara doesn't
necessarily mean she's not being counted -- a name is a name. So
we could have the four names being: Temaile, Galina, Karale's
other, and Marris's other.

As for Yukiri's statement, people are assuming that the "others"
only refers to the other sisters' others. It could just be a general
statement about all the other BA they've uncovered who are out of
the tower -- that list would include Temaile and, I imagine, Galina
(since AFAIK Yukiri doesn't know about what Katerine said). It
actually makes more sense this way, since Yukiri and Pevara are
discussing the stone wall they've hit in their BA hunt. If Temaile
somehow reappeared in the Tower, they'd go after her too, and
find out who her 'one other' is.

I find it funny that people are tying themselves in knots trying to
figure out the BA structure while thinking that the "one more"
association is only one way...all based on their interpretation of
what Pevara thought and Yukiri said.
Yeah. Got that far. But I found it really odd that Atuan's one other is
not Talene. Meaning that the one other has no idea who knows her. Which
is what I found odd. It also means that the communcitation betwen
hearts can only go one way. Atuan cannot contact Talene knowingly, though
Talene could contact her. Its a weird way to organize if you ask me.
The idea that Atuan's one other is not Talene is contradicted by
CoT:

"Atuan had been Talene's 'one more', so there was some hope
she could be followed to two others." -- CoT Prologue, 'Glimmers
of the Pattern', p. 44 (hardcover).

The "two others" are obviously the other members of Atuan's heart.
There's no mention of a third -- it's implied that Talene is Atuan's
"one more".

And to head off the looney theory at the pass, no, I don't think that
the BA hunters (and, by extension, Talene, since she's telling them
everything) were assuming at the time that Atuan knew about Talene
when she doesn't. Because that would imply that Atuan has never sent
Talene a message, nor would Talene have ever engaged in a two-way
BA communication with Atuan -- and yet Talene thought that Atuan
knew about her anyway.


Ramon K. Kailly
Loading...