Discussion:
The making of sa'angreal
(too old to reply)
l***@gmail.com
2006-10-07 17:04:28 UTC
Permalink
I was just thinking, now that even healing's been discovered, what
about angreal and s'angreal.

It's been mentioned numerous times through the Wheel of Time that the
making of s'angreal had been lost since the Breaking of the World.
But right now in Randland, a lot of things assumed to be lost since the
Age of Legends are being rediscovered, and even some things (ex:
stilling) not even known to the AOL Aes Sedaiare being practised. Thus
it bugs me that after all that no one has discovered how angreal and
the s'angreal work still yet. Elayne's studies enabled her to make
ter'angreal, and though everyone believes she'll go on to figure
out the making of ter'angreal, no further developments have been
mentioned yet. There's also the fact that, when Nynaeve and Elayne
held Mogehdien captive and extracted the secrets of the One Power from
her, they neglected to ask her about the making of angreal. I don't
think Robert Jordan just let such an opportunity slip. I think he was
really just not mentioning it because it was supposed to be a secret
until the end of the book.

On to how I think sa'angreal (and angreal) are made. Since they
magnify how much one power you can use, I think they involve a
chaneller sacrificing his/her abilities in order for them to be made. I
say this because something worth as much as an angreal requires a
decent price to be made. It's worth its weight in blood, not gold.
And the most precious thing an Aes Sedai possesses, more than even
their life, is their ability to channel. Maybe angreal only require
that you give up a portion of our chanelling abilities, but I believe
to make a s'angreal, an Aes Sedai would have to effectively
still/gentle themselves. This also explains why some angreal /
s'angreal can be used only by men while other can be wielded only by
men - it depends on whether a male of female gave up their chanelling
abilities.

Thus proposed, this leads us to think, why were s'angreal even made
in the first place, if the price paid to make them was so high? The
only answer is, they weren't made routinely. I'm guessing that the
only time when they made them was during the War of Power, when the Aes
Sedai of the Light desperately needed every advantage they could have
above the Forsaken and the Dreadlords. Times were hard enough then that
Aes Sedai could actually see sense in giving up their abilities so the
more powerful of them could channel powerfully enough to stand up to
the likes of Lanfear and Ishamael.

Still not convinced? Well, there's also the fact that while the
making of angreal and s'angreal were both lost since the Age of
Legends, the making of ter'angreal was lost too, but there's still
a lot more ter'angreal in the world than either angreal or
s'angreal. Since they were all lost about the same time after the
Breaking of the World, then it makes sense that even before the
Breaking, ter'angreal existed in larger numbers because they were
much easier to make, the price much more easily paid.

There's also some proof from the context of the books that compounds
my theory. Let's take Callandor, for instance. Callandor is pretty
much famous among Wot fans as the only sa'angreal without a buffer
from the Dark One. It think the reason for this is, Callandor was made
by the original dragon, Lews Therin himself, when he died. His own
chanelling abilites were transferred to Callandor and whether it was
Ishamael's intervention (read EoW prologue) or the Dark One's
counterstroke that made Lews Therin's chanelling so harmful is
anyone's guess, but Callandor is unique in that way due to the fact
that Lews Therin himself made. It can also explain why Rand was the
only one able to wield it.
David Chapman
2006-10-07 17:13:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@gmail.com
There's also the fact that, when Nynaeve and Elayne
held Mogehdien captive and extracted the secrets of the One Power from
her, they neglected to ask her about the making of angreal.
What makes you think she knows? Thinking on cuendillar, it's not unlikely
that (sa')angreal manufacture is a Talent.
XenocideLuvver
2006-10-07 17:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by l***@gmail.com
There's also the fact that, when Nynaeve and Elayne
held Mogehdien captive and extracted the secrets of the One Power from
her, they neglected to ask her about the making of angreal.
What makes you think she knows? Thinking on cuendillar, it's not unlikely
that (sa')angreal manufacture is a Talent.
wtf is a wittering?
Kristoffer Björkman
2006-10-10 08:19:13 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
XenocideLuvver says...
[...]
Post by XenocideLuvver
wtf is a wittering?
http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/WITTER

/Kristoffer
--
This cookie has a scrap of paper inside. It reads:
Arire nggnpx n thneq.
XenocideLuvver
2006-10-07 19:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by l***@gmail.com
There's also the fact that, when Nynaeve and Elayne
held Mogehdien captive and extracted the secrets of the One Power from
her, they neglected to ask her about the making of angreal.
What makes you think she knows? Thinking on cuendillar, it's not unlikely
that (sa')angreal manufacture is a Talent.
Well even if moggy doesn't know she'll have the gist because something
as powerful as a sangreal won't escape unnoticed. There's also the fact
that the Forsaken might not have known of it cuz the light discovered
it during the War of Power, which means i nynaeve had asked them she'd
have looked blank and then we'd have known the hint that the forsaken
don't knwo anything.
Legolas
2006-10-07 23:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@gmail.com
I was just thinking, now that even healing's been discovered, what
about angreal and s'angreal.
It's been mentioned numerous times through the Wheel of Time that the
making of s'angreal had been lost since the Breaking of the World.
But right now in Randland, a lot of things assumed to be lost since the
stilling) not even known to the AOL Aes Sedaiare being practised. Thus
it bugs me that after all that no one has discovered how angreal and
the s'angreal work still yet. Elayne's studies enabled her to make
ter'angreal, and though everyone believes she'll go on to figure
out the making of ter'angreal, no further developments have been
mentioned yet. There's also the fact that, when Nynaeve and Elayne
held Mogehdien captive and extracted the secrets of the One Power from
her, they neglected to ask her about the making of angreal. I don't
think Robert Jordan just let such an opportunity slip. I think he was
really just not mentioning it because it was supposed to be a secret
until the end of the book.
On to how I think sa'angreal (and angreal) are made. Since they
magnify how much one power you can use, I think they involve a
chaneller sacrificing his/her abilities in order for them to be made. I
say this because something worth as much as an angreal requires a
decent price to be made. It's worth its weight in blood, not gold.
And the most precious thing an Aes Sedai possesses, more than even
their life, is their ability to channel. Maybe angreal only require
that you give up a portion of our chanelling abilities, but I
believe
Post by l***@gmail.com
to make a s'angreal, an Aes Sedai would have to effectively
still/gentle themselves. This also explains why some angreal /
s'angreal can be used only by men while other can be wielded only by
men - it depends on whether a male of female gave up their
chanelling
Post by l***@gmail.com
abilities.
Thus proposed, this leads us to think, why were s'angreal even made
in the first place, if the price paid to make them was so high? The
only answer is, they weren't made routinely. I'm guessing that the
only time when they made them was during the War of Power, when the Aes
Sedai of the Light desperately needed every advantage they could have
above the Forsaken and the Dreadlords. Times were hard enough then that
Aes Sedai could actually see sense in giving up their abilities so the
more powerful of them could channel powerfully enough to stand up to
the likes of Lanfear and Ishamael.
Still not convinced? Well, there's also the fact that while the
making of angreal and s'angreal were both lost since the Age of
Legends, the making of ter'angreal was lost too, but there's still
a lot more ter'angreal in the world than either angreal or
s'angreal. Since they were all lost about the same time after the
Breaking of the World, then it makes sense that even before the
Breaking, ter'angreal existed in larger numbers because they were
much easier to make, the price much more easily paid.
There's also some proof from the context of the books that compounds
my theory. Let's take Callandor, for instance. Callandor is pretty
much famous among Wot fans as the only sa'angreal without a buffer
from the Dark One. It think the reason for this is, Callandor was made
by the original dragon, Lews Therin himself, when he died. His own
chanelling abilites were transferred to Callandor and whether it was
Ishamael's intervention (read EoW prologue) or the Dark One's
counterstroke that made Lews Therin's chanelling so harmful is
anyone's guess, but Callandor is unique in that way due to the fact
that Lews Therin himself made. It can also explain why Rand was the
only one able to wield it.
I find it is already extrememly improbable that they were able to
rediscover all they did in the few *months* (ok, a year or two) since
the beginning of the story. We're talking about cycles that last
thousands of years here.

But let's fantasise.

I don't think anyone would agree to sacrifice their ability to channel
in order to make an object that *others* will be able to use (they can
link to achieve the same effect). Especially since stilling is so
painful, worse than dying. Dying for the cause, yes, like those that
died making the Eye of the World, but getting stilled for it, I don't
think so. Unless they get something in return for it, or the price is
not that high for that particular Aes Sedai. For example, say the
aged ones are willing to do that, create a sa'angeal, just before they
die. Or they get something in return, like some rare Talents (note
the plurial) to replace their lost ability to channel, perhaps some
abilities along the lines of those posessed by the Ogier. Hell, since
we're fantasising here, perhaps they become Ogier! Or some other
higher life form. (Yes, I'm implying ogier are a higher life form).

/end of fantasy
--
Legolas
XenocideLuvver
2006-10-08 00:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Ah, the wonders of daydreams ^.^ nyways to the point.

in reality I guess, no one would want to give that up. But we're
talking about Wot here. And as much as Robert Jordan thinks he's
writing a real life novel here, with real life complications, the thing
that make Wot wonderful and makes us love the characters is that though
they all have flaws, the Light side is always brave and noble. In
Robert Jordan's view, in a time of such hopelessness as the war of the
shadow, maybe they had to.
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by l***@gmail.com
I was just thinking, now that even healing's been discovered, what
about angreal and s'angreal.
It's been mentioned numerous times through the Wheel of Time that
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
making of s'angreal had been lost since the Breaking of the World.
But right now in Randland, a lot of things assumed to be lost since
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
stilling) not even known to the AOL Aes Sedaiare being practised.
Thus
Post by l***@gmail.com
it bugs me that after all that no one has discovered how angreal and
the s'angreal work still yet. Elayne's studies enabled her to make
ter'angreal, and though everyone believes she'll go on to figure
out the making of ter'angreal, no further developments have been
mentioned yet. There's also the fact that, when Nynaeve and Elayne
held Mogehdien captive and extracted the secrets of the One Power
from
Post by l***@gmail.com
her, they neglected to ask her about the making of angreal. I don't
think Robert Jordan just let such an opportunity slip. I think he
was
Post by l***@gmail.com
really just not mentioning it because it was supposed to be a secret
until the end of the book.
On to how I think sa'angreal (and angreal) are made. Since they
magnify how much one power you can use, I think they involve a
chaneller sacrificing his/her abilities in order for them to be
made. I
Post by l***@gmail.com
say this because something worth as much as an angreal requires a
decent price to be made. It's worth its weight in blood, not gold.
And the most precious thing an Aes Sedai possesses, more than even
their life, is their ability to channel. Maybe angreal only require
that you give up a portion of our chanelling abilities, but I
believe
Post by l***@gmail.com
to make a s'angreal, an Aes Sedai would have to effectively
still/gentle themselves. This also explains why some angreal /
s'angreal can be used only by men while other can be wielded only by
men - it depends on whether a male of female gave up their
chanelling
Post by l***@gmail.com
abilities.
Thus proposed, this leads us to think, why were s'angreal even made
in the first place, if the price paid to make them was so high? The
only answer is, they weren't made routinely. I'm guessing that the
only time when they made them was during the War of Power, when the
Aes
Post by l***@gmail.com
Sedai of the Light desperately needed every advantage they could
have
Post by l***@gmail.com
above the Forsaken and the Dreadlords. Times were hard enough then
that
Post by l***@gmail.com
Aes Sedai could actually see sense in giving up their abilities so
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
more powerful of them could channel powerfully enough to stand up to
the likes of Lanfear and Ishamael.
Still not convinced? Well, there's also the fact that while the
making of angreal and s'angreal were both lost since the Age of
Legends, the making of ter'angreal was lost too, but there's still
a lot more ter'angreal in the world than either angreal or
s'angreal. Since they were all lost about the same time after the
Breaking of the World, then it makes sense that even before the
Breaking, ter'angreal existed in larger numbers because they were
much easier to make, the price much more easily paid.
There's also some proof from the context of the books that compounds
my theory. Let's take Callandor, for instance. Callandor is pretty
much famous among Wot fans as the only sa'angreal without a buffer
from the Dark One. It think the reason for this is, Callandor was
made
Post by l***@gmail.com
by the original dragon, Lews Therin himself, when he died. His own
chanelling abilites were transferred to Callandor and whether it was
Ishamael's intervention (read EoW prologue) or the Dark One's
counterstroke that made Lews Therin's chanelling so harmful is
anyone's guess, but Callandor is unique in that way due to the fact
that Lews Therin himself made. It can also explain why Rand was the
only one able to wield it.
I find it is already extrememly improbable that they were able to
rediscover all they did in the few *months* (ok, a year or two) since
the beginning of the story. We're talking about cycles that last
thousands of years here.
But let's fantasise.
I don't think anyone would agree to sacrifice their ability to channel
in order to make an object that *others* will be able to use (they can
link to achieve the same effect). Especially since stilling is so
painful, worse than dying. Dying for the cause, yes, like those that
died making the Eye of the World, but getting stilled for it, I don't
think so. Unless they get something in return for it, or the price is
not that high for that particular Aes Sedai. For example, say the
aged ones are willing to do that, create a sa'angeal, just before they
die. Or they get something in return, like some rare Talents (note
the plurial) to replace their lost ability to channel, perhaps some
abilities along the lines of those posessed by the Ogier. Hell, since
we're fantasising here, perhaps they become Ogier! Or some other
higher life form. (Yes, I'm implying ogier are a higher life form).
/end of fantasy
--
Legolas
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-08 15:06:22 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, 7 Oct 2006 17:28:35 -0700 - there was
this guy, or something, called "XenocideLuvver"
Post by XenocideLuvver
the Light side is always brave and noble. In
Robert Jordan's view, in a time of such hopelessness as the war of the
shadow, maybe they had to.
I don't know that the "goodies" in the Wheel of Time series are
particularly noteworthy for their selfless nobility and altruism.
They're more your sort of average everyday schmuck who gets in
situations that a bit of common sense would keep you out of in the
first place. And they tend to look out for Number One.




C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-08 15:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 8 Oct 2006 01:42:07 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
I don't think anyone would agree to sacrifice their ability to channel
in order to make an object that *others* will be able to use (they can
link to achieve the same effect). Especially since stilling is so
painful, worse than dying.
I agree, but on slightly different grounds. I think this is a very
cool idea. It's too cool for this series. It doesn't seem like magic
works this way.

I have little or nothing to base this on, just the impression I get
from the series in general. This sort of "magic has a price" idea
doesn't fit.





C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
XenocideLuvver
2006-10-08 16:52:32 UTC
Permalink
you have a point. I mean, I read the healing of saidin and it wasn't
exactly all that spectacular so there might be a less harsh way to make
sangreal.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 8 Oct 2006 01:42:07 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
I don't think anyone would agree to sacrifice their ability to channel
in order to make an object that *others* will be able to use (they can
link to achieve the same effect). Especially since stilling is so
painful, worse than dying.
I agree, but on slightly different grounds. I think this is a very
cool idea. It's too cool for this series. It doesn't seem like magic
works this way.
I have little or nothing to base this on, just the impression I get
from the series in general. This sort of "magic has a price" idea
doesn't fit.
C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.
- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Legolas
2006-10-08 23:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 8 Oct 2006 01:42:07 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
I don't think anyone would agree to sacrifice their ability to channel
in order to make an object that *others* will be able to use (they can
link to achieve the same effect). Especially since stilling is so
painful, worse than dying.
I agree, but on slightly different grounds. I think this is a very
cool idea. It's too cool for this series. It doesn't seem like magic
works this way.
I have little or nothing to base this on, just the impression I get
from the series in general. This sort of "magic has a price" idea
doesn't fit.
Agreed. They don't pay any price, except getting a bit tired. And RJ
doesn't even try to make "nature" somehow pay for all that's being
done with its powers, and I agree with him there too; it would be too
boring and "unmagical" if even magic had a price. I mean that's what
magic *is*, making something from nothing!
One limitation of his magic, however, is that healers can't heal
themselves (which they can usually do in most other fantasy
frameworks, like RPG's for example). And it would make sense if they
provided the healing power, which they don't. They just channel it.
--
Legolas
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-09 14:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 01:56:01 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
I have little or nothing to base this on, just the impression I get
from the series in general. This sort of "magic has a price" idea
doesn't fit.
Agreed. They don't pay any price, except getting a bit tired. And RJ
doesn't even try to make "nature" somehow pay for all that's being
done with its powers, and I agree with him there too; it would be too
boring and "unmagical" if even magic had a price. I mean that's what
magic *is*, making something from nothing!
Yep ... although there are lots of stories where the magic-users have
limits, or their Godlike powers come with some sort of price. It can
be done in several interesting ways, and don't necessarily make the
activity "unmagical".
Post by Legolas
One limitation of his magic, however, is that healers can't heal
themselves (which they can usually do in most other fantasy
frameworks, like RPG's for example). And it would make sense if they
provided the healing power, which they don't. They just channel it.
The channelers in Wheel of Time are somewhat limited. They can burn
themselves out, which is moderately nasty.

They can't fly or raise the dead either ... but then, this is just
what has been said. It has also been said that they can't heal
stilling, and so on and so forth. And yet, they can. Maybe the rest of
these "can't be done" acts can actually be done, it's just that nobody
knows how anymore (flying, for example, used to be known ... what
puzzles me is, why did they have flying Aes Sedai and giant sho-wings,
when they could just Travel?).




C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Pat O'Connell
2006-10-09 14:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 01:56:01 +0200 - there
Post by Chucky & Janica
I have little or nothing to base this on, just the impression I get
from the series in general. This sort of "magic has a price" idea
doesn't fit.
...
Post by Chucky & Janica
The channelers in Wheel of Time are somewhat limited. They can burn
themselves out, which is moderately nasty.
They can't fly or raise the dead either ... but then, this is just
what has been said. It has also been said that they can't heal
stilling, and so on and so forth. And yet, they can. Maybe the rest of
these "can't be done" acts can actually be done, it's just that nobody
knows how anymore (flying, for example, used to be known ... what
puzzles me is, why did they have flying Aes Sedai and giant sho-wings,
when they could just Travel?).
"This is your Aes Sedai speaking. We'll be cruising the sho-wing at 5000
feet..."

Sho-wings probably let a channeler bring non-channeler(s) along for the
trip.
--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...
Legolas
2006-10-09 17:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat O'Connell
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 01:56:01 +0200 - there
Post by Chucky & Janica
I have little or nothing to base this on, just the impression I get
from the series in general. This sort of "magic has a price" idea
doesn't fit.
...
Post by Chucky & Janica
The channelers in Wheel of Time are somewhat limited. They can burn
themselves out, which is moderately nasty.
They can't fly or raise the dead either ... but then, this is just
what has been said. It has also been said that they can't heal
stilling, and so on and so forth. And yet, they can. Maybe the rest of
these "can't be done" acts can actually be done, it's just that nobody
knows how anymore (flying, for example, used to be known ... what
puzzles me is, why did they have flying Aes Sedai and giant
sho-wings,
Post by Pat O'Connell
Post by Chucky & Janica
when they could just Travel?).
"This is your Aes Sedai speaking. We'll be cruising the sho-wing at 5000
feet..."
Sho-wings probably let a channeler bring non-channeler(s) along for the
trip.
True. And flying is useful to go downtown or during battles with
hordes of melée weapon users.
Legolas
2006-10-09 17:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 01:56:01 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
I have little or nothing to base this on, just the impression I get
from the series in general. This sort of "magic has a price" idea
doesn't fit.
Agreed. They don't pay any price, except getting a bit tired. And RJ
doesn't even try to make "nature" somehow pay for all that's being
done with its powers, and I agree with him there too; it would be too
boring and "unmagical" if even magic had a price. I mean that's what
magic *is*, making something from nothing!
Yep ... although there are lots of stories where the magic-users have
limits, or their Godlike powers come with some sort of price. It can
be done in several interesting ways, and don't necessarily make the
activity "unmagical".
Price. I'm thinking of the boring activity of gathering components to
prepare spells in D&D CRPG's. Deadly price... Other than that (and
having to rest frequently) I can't think of any story which makes the
mage "pay" for his ability. And if they get "used up" in any way,
they're usually considered "lesser" mages. You mind refreshing my
memory?
Post by Chucky & Janica
The channelers in Wheel of Time are somewhat limited. They can burn
themselves out, which is moderately nasty.
Heh, ask Aginor, he knows how moderately nasty that is. :)



Just on the side, you always post and sign as C&J together (happy
couple you are). But how does one know which of the two of you is
answering?
--
Legolas
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-10 17:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:54:16 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
Price. I'm thinking of the boring activity of gathering components to
prepare spells in D&D CRPG's. Deadly price... Other than that (and
having to rest frequently) I can't think of any story which makes the
mage "pay" for his ability. And if they get "used up" in any way,
they're usually considered "lesser" mages. You mind refreshing my
memory?
Hmm.

Well, in Martin's stories magic generally has a price, usually
involving blood and death. Of course, a classic example is the magic
of the One Ring, which made weaker beings pay a tremendous price for
its powers. Then there's stuff like "Carnivale", where the power to
restore life and health comes at a pay-off of life being drawn out of
something/somethings/someone else. The Wheel of Time has a minor
reflection of this in Healing, which drains strength and stamina from
the person being Healed, leaving them tired and hungry. Lots of
Pratchett's magic has a price that has to be paid later (witness
Granny Weatherwax catching a sword-stroke in her bare hands, then
laying out needle and thread and bandages six months later and saying,
"alright, I'm ready.").

Plenty of others. Those are just a few examples off the top of our
heads.
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
The channelers in Wheel of Time are somewhat limited. They can burn
themselves out, which is moderately nasty.
Heh, ask Aginor, he knows how moderately nasty that is. :)
Heh. I think he got it lightly. At least he died.
Post by Legolas
Just on the side, you always post and sign as C&J together (happy
couple you are). But how does one know which of the two of you is
answering?
If we don't tell you, then it doesn't matter. If it does matter,
Janica prefaces her remarks with a [J].

Lots of total idiots have a problem with this. You're certainly not
one of them.





C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Legolas
2006-10-12 15:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:54:16 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
Price. I'm thinking of the boring activity of gathering components to
prepare spells in D&D CRPG's. Deadly price... Other than that (and
having to rest frequently) I can't think of any story which makes the
mage "pay" for his ability. And if they get "used up" in any way,
they're usually considered "lesser" mages. You mind refreshing my
memory?
Hmm.
Well, in Martin's stories magic generally has a price, usually
involving blood and death.
Sorry, I've never read him. Do you recommend him? Which book? Does it
end within a normal human lifespan?
Post by Chucky & Janica
Of course, a classic example is the magic of the One Ring,
which made weaker beings pay a tremendous price for
its powers.
That's a different case, though, magic items. And this one was
tailor-made for Sauron by him. Take the 3 elven rings, for example:
their bearers didn't seem to have any problems with them. But I
suppose you could broaden the discussion of "price for using magic" to
the use of magic items too, especially by the untalented. I would
then probably assimilate that to the case of burnout from over-drawing
(trying to do something way above your capabilities). But that's not
really what I thought I understood when you spoke of a price for using
magic.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Then there's stuff like "Carnivale", where the power to
restore life and health comes at a pay-off of life being drawn out of
something/somethings/someone else. The Wheel of Time has a minor
reflection of this in Healing, which drains strength and stamina from
the person being Healed, leaving them tired and hungry. Lots of
Pratchett's magic has a price that has to be paid later (witness
Granny Weatherwax catching a sword-stroke in her bare hands, then
laying out needle and thread and bandages six months later and
saying,
Post by Chucky & Janica
"alright, I'm ready.").
Plenty of others. Those are just a few examples off the top of our
heads.
Yes, these all seem to be types of "damage" which the user can recover
from. I was thinking more in terms of a permanent price paid for using
magic, such as being stilled for creating a sa'angreal.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
The channelers in Wheel of Time are somewhat limited. They can burn
themselves out, which is moderately nasty.
Heh, ask Aginor, he knows how moderately nasty that is. :)
Heh. I think he got it lightly. At least he died.
Right. And got a sexy female body in return too! (Halima - or is that
Balthamel? I always mix them up).
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Just on the side, you always post and sign as C&J together (happy
couple you are). But how does one know which of the two of you is
answering?
If we don't tell you, then it doesn't matter. If it does matter,
Janica prefaces her remarks with a [J].
Yeah, I noticed that. I guess what I (and perhaps others) assume is
that, if there's no [J] then it's [C].
Post by Chucky & Janica
Lots of total idiots have a problem with this. You're certainly not
one of them.
Oh, thanks! Ok, sensitive topic. Got it.
--
Legolas
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-13 13:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:31:24 +0200 -
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
Well, in Martin's stories magic generally has a price, usually
involving blood and death.
Sorry, I've never read him.
Oooh, excellent stuff.
Post by Legolas
Do you recommend him?
Sure.
Post by Legolas
Which book?
He apparently writes a lot of stuff, but the one I mostly know is the
Song of Ice and Fire series. Warning: not yet finished.

Go to alt.fan.grrm once you've read it.
Post by Legolas
Does it
end within a normal human lifespan?
Heh. If anything, it's more time between books than Jordan. But more
worth the wait. At the moment, we're just hoping that the trend in the
books (longer wait, more pages, less happening, storylines diverging
dramatically) doesn't continue. In the most recent book, he broke the
storylines so half of them are in this one and the other half will
(apparently) be in the next one, then the story will continue in the
one after that. Maybe to a conclusion (making a six-book series) or
maybe a penultimate (finally ending at seven or eight books).

It's a great series, though.
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
Of course, a classic example is the magic of the One Ring,
which made weaker beings pay a tremendous price for
its powers.
That's a different case, though, magic items.
Sure, they're all different. All these books have their own magic
systems. Magic systems based on a sort of balance, where you have to
pay for something eventually, are out there. But Jordan's doesn't seem
to be one. The One Power just seems to be a big fuel bank that
channelers can use as much as they like, as long as they don't take
too much at once.

Like I said, though, Jordan does have a nasty habit of making up new
rules as he goes along. He is perfectly within his rights to change
the laws or mention new ones when the time comes for his characters to
make sa'angreal (personally I doubt we'll see it happen). And we're
perfectly within our rights to make fun of him if and when those rules
don't match with the other rules he made up already.

But it's his story.
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
Then there's stuff like "Carnivale", where the power to
restore life and health comes at a pay-off of life being drawn out
of
Post by Chucky & Janica
something/somethings/someone else. The Wheel of Time has a minor
reflection of this in Healing, which drains strength and stamina
from
Post by Chucky & Janica
the person being Healed, leaving them tired and hungry. Lots of
Pratchett's magic has a price that has to be paid later (witness
Granny Weatherwax catching a sword-stroke in her bare hands, then
laying out needle and thread and bandages six months later and
saying,
Post by Chucky & Janica
"alright, I'm ready.").
Plenty of others. Those are just a few examples off the top of our
heads.
Yes, these all seem to be types of "damage" which the user can recover
from. I was thinking more in terms of a permanent price paid for using
magic, such as being stilled for creating a sa'angreal.
Like I said, not really Jordan's style.
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
The channelers in Wheel of Time are somewhat limited. They can
burn
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
themselves out, which is moderately nasty.
Heh, ask Aginor, he knows how moderately nasty that is. :)
Heh. I think he got it lightly. At least he died.
Right. And got a sexy female body in return too! (Halima - or is that
Balthamel? I always mix them up).
Balthamel was the womaniser. Aginor made the trollocs, and ended up
(probably) as Dashiva (Osan'gar).
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
If we don't tell you, then it doesn't matter. If it does matter,
Janica prefaces her remarks with a [J].
Yeah, I noticed that. I guess what I (and perhaps others) assume is
that, if there's no [J] then it's [C].
No, it's C&J.
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
Lots of total idiots have a problem with this. You're certainly not
one of them.
Oh, thanks! Ok, sensitive topic. Got it.
Heh. Any curtness in my response can be put down to that, and that
it's Friday at last and it hasn't quite registered.





C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Legolas
2006-10-16 13:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Sorry, I've never read him.
Oooh, excellent stuff.
Post by Legolas
Do you recommend him?
Sure.
Post by Legolas
Which book?
He apparently writes a lot of stuff, but the one I mostly know is the
Song of Ice and Fire series. Warning: not yet finished.
Ouch! Not again. Is he a realive of RJ? <JK>
Post by Chucky & Janica
Go to alt.fan.grrm once you've read it.
Post by Legolas
Does it
end within a normal human lifespan?
Heh. If anything, it's more time between books than Jordan. But more
worth the wait. At the moment, we're just hoping that the trend in the
books (longer wait, more pages, less happening, storylines diverging
dramatically) doesn't continue.
Woah! Take it easy, that spot's still tender. And you recommend
that?
It must be really good. So I guess I'll wait a few years or decades
before I pick that one up.
Post by Chucky & Janica
In the most recent book, he broke the
storylines so half of them are in this one and the other half will
(apparently) be in the next one, then the story will continue in the
one after that. Maybe to a conclusion (making a six-book series) or
maybe a penultimate (finally ending at seven or eight books).
It's a great series, though.
Post by Legolas
Right. And got a sexy female body in return too! (Halima - or is that
Balthamel? I always mix them up).
Balthamel was the womaniser. Aginor made the trollocs, and ended up
(probably) as Dashiva (Osan'gar).
Thanks. Dashiva, yes. I was a bit disappoined with that character.
The role of undercover agent was somwhat demeaning to one of the most
powerful people in the world, who had created the trollocs! RJ could
have used him to make us appreciate the power of the Dragon Reborn,
for example, by showing us that Dashiva feared him, or even admired or
truly followed him for the power he (Rand) had. I think I'd have
liked that better. He'd have been a great asset to Rand, told him
some secret weak points of the Myrdraal, for example, or even created
a 'good' type of monster (cannon fodder) for Rand, or brought back
some valuable invention from the AOL. Rand could have protected him
from any assassins, having lost Asmodean (but he wasn't really
following Rand of his own free will). So who killed Asmodean? <BG>
--
Legolas
Brendan Lavin
2006-10-16 14:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Sorry, I've never read him.
Oooh, excellent stuff.
Post by Legolas
Do you recommend him?
Sure.
Post by Legolas
Which book?
He apparently writes a lot of stuff, but the one I mostly know is
the
Post by Chucky & Janica
Song of Ice and Fire series. Warning: not yet finished.
Ouch! Not again. Is he a realive of RJ? <JK>
Post by Chucky & Janica
Go to alt.fan.grrm once you've read it.
Post by Legolas
Does it
end within a normal human lifespan?
Heh. If anything, it's more time between books than Jordan. But more
worth the wait. At the moment, we're just hoping that the trend in
the
Post by Chucky & Janica
books (longer wait, more pages, less happening, storylines diverging
dramatically) doesn't continue.
Woah! Take it easy, that spot's still tender. And you recommend
that?
It must be really good. So I guess I'll wait a few years or decades
before I pick that one up.
Post by Chucky & Janica
In the most recent book, he broke the
storylines so half of them are in this one and the other half will
(apparently) be in the next one, then the story will continue in the
one after that. Maybe to a conclusion (making a six-book series) or
maybe a penultimate (finally ending at seven or eight books).
It's a great series, though.
Post by Legolas
Right. And got a sexy female body in return too! (Halima - or is
that
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Balthamel? I always mix them up).
Balthamel was the womaniser. Aginor made the trollocs, and ended up
(probably) as Dashiva (Osan'gar).
Thanks. Dashiva, yes. I was a bit disappoined with that character.
The role of undercover agent was somwhat demeaning to one of the most
powerful people in the world, who had created the trollocs! RJ could
have used him to make us appreciate the power of the Dragon Reborn,
for example, by showing us that Dashiva feared him, or even admired or
truly followed him for the power he (Rand) had. I think I'd have
liked that better. He'd have been a great asset to Rand, told him
some secret weak points of the Myrdraal, for example, or even created
a 'good' type of monster (cannon fodder) for Rand, or brought back
some valuable invention from the AOL. Rand could have protected him
from any assassins, having lost Asmodean (but he wasn't really
following Rand of his own free will). So who killed Asmodean? <BG>
--
Legolas
Bela. I thought that was settled. ;)

Brendan
Legolas
2006-10-16 21:20:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan Lavin
Post by Legolas
So who killed Asmodean? <BG>
Bela. I thought that was settled. ;)
Heehee. That's actually the cutest character in the series. Couldn't
harm a fly, the poor girl.
And the only true 'person' still belonging to the Two Rivers. She
should remind Rand of home every time he sees her. How could he let
Egwene have his mule? It's like leaving home with your dog, then
letting someone else take her.
--
Legolas
Steve Klein
2006-10-16 17:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Sorry, I've never read him.
Oooh, excellent stuff.
Post by Legolas
Do you recommend him?
Sure.
Post by Legolas
Which book?
He apparently writes a lot of stuff, but the one I mostly know is
the
Post by Chucky & Janica
Song of Ice and Fire series. Warning: not yet finished.
Ouch! Not again. Is he a realive of RJ? <JK>
Post by Chucky & Janica
Go to alt.fan.grrm once you've read it.
Post by Legolas
Does it
end within a normal human lifespan?
Heh. If anything, it's more time between books than Jordan. But more
worth the wait. At the moment, we're just hoping that the trend in
the
Post by Chucky & Janica
books (longer wait, more pages, less happening, storylines diverging
dramatically) doesn't continue.
Woah! Take it easy, that spot's still tender. And you recommend
that?
It must be really good. So I guess I'll wait a few years or decades
before I pick that one up.
Post by Chucky & Janica
In the most recent book, he broke the
storylines so half of them are in this one and the other half will
(apparently) be in the next one, then the story will continue in the
one after that. Maybe to a conclusion (making a six-book series) or
maybe a penultimate (finally ending at seven or eight books).
It's a great series, though.
Post by Legolas
Right. And got a sexy female body in return too! (Halima - or is
that
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Balthamel? I always mix them up).
Balthamel was the womaniser. Aginor made the trollocs, and ended up
(probably) as Dashiva (Osan'gar).
Thanks. Dashiva, yes. I was a bit disappoined with that character.
The role of undercover agent was somwhat demeaning to one of the most
powerful people in the world, who had created the trollocs! RJ could
have used him to make us appreciate the power of the Dragon Reborn,
for example, by showing us that Dashiva feared him, or even admired or
truly followed him for the power he (Rand) had. I think I'd have
liked that better. He'd have been a great asset to Rand, told him
some secret weak points of the Myrdraal, for example, or even created
a 'good' type of monster (cannon fodder) for Rand, or brought back
some valuable invention from the AOL. Rand could have protected him
from any assassins, having lost Asmodean (but he wasn't really
following Rand of his own free will). So who killed Asmodean? <BG>
Davram Bashere - he's really a darkfriend.
Legolas
2006-10-16 21:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Klein
Post by Legolas
So who killed Asmodean? <BG>
Davram Bashere - he's really a darkfriend.
Huh? You serious?
--
Legolas
Steve Klein
2006-10-17 15:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Legolas
Post by Steve Klein
Post by Legolas
So who killed Asmodean? <BG>
Davram Bashere - he's really a darkfriend.
Huh? You serious?
--
Legolas
Someone else's theory. Though it makes sense. Read the last chapter where
Asmodean gets killed. Bashere is the only one walking through the palace
unescorted and he carries a baton in his belt (could be another "rod").
Asmodean would know who he is if he was a highly placed darkfriend. Bashere
would need to get rid of Asmodean if he is to succeed in his ploy.

Also, Moridin is playing both sides of the "chess" game which means he most
likely has players on both sides; what better than to control one of the
good side's generals.
Legolas
2006-10-18 16:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Klein
Post by Legolas
Post by Steve Klein
Post by Legolas
So who killed Asmodean? <BG>
Davram Bashere - he's really a darkfriend.
Huh? You serious?
--
Legolas
Someone else's theory. Though it makes sense. Read the last
chapter where
Post by Steve Klein
Asmodean gets killed. Bashere is the only one walking through the palace
unescorted and he carries a baton in his belt (could be another "rod").
Asmodean would know who he is if he was a highly placed darkfriend.
Bashere
Post by Steve Klein
would need to get rid of Asmodean if he is to succeed in his ploy.
But can't the foresaken use illusion to make themselves look like
other people?
Post by Steve Klein
Also, Moridin is playing both sides of the "chess" game which means he most
likely has players on both sides; what better than to control one of the
good side's generals.
Sure, but someone would have 'sensed' it if it were one of Rand's
close companions. Min should have seen their aura, for example
(although she doesn't seem to figure our Elza's true allegiance).
--
Legolas
Steve Klein
2006-10-18 19:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Klein
Post by Steve Klein
Post by Legolas
Post by Steve Klein
Post by Legolas
So who killed Asmodean? <BG>
Davram Bashere - he's really a darkfriend.
Huh? You serious?
--
Legolas
Someone else's theory. Though it makes sense. Read the last
chapter where
Post by Steve Klein
Asmodean gets killed. Bashere is the only one walking through the
palace
Post by Steve Klein
unescorted and he carries a baton in his belt (could be another
"rod").
Post by Steve Klein
Asmodean would know who he is if he was a highly placed darkfriend.
Bashere
Post by Steve Klein
would need to get rid of Asmodean if he is to succeed in his ploy.
But can't the foresaken use illusion to make themselves look like
other people?
Post by Steve Klein
Also, Moridin is playing both sides of the "chess" game which means
he most
Post by Steve Klein
likely has players on both sides; what better than to control one of
the
Post by Steve Klein
good side's generals.
Sure, but someone would have 'sensed' it if it were one of Rand's
close companions. Min should have seen their aura, for example
(although she doesn't seem to figure our Elza's true allegiance).
--
Legolas
Nor did she sense Dashiva was one of the Forsaken all that time as well.

sk
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-18 15:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:47:17 +0200 -
Post by Legolas
Thanks. Dashiva, yes. I was a bit disappoined with that character.
The role of undercover agent was somwhat demeaning to one of the most
powerful people in the world, who had created the trollocs! RJ could
have used him to make us appreciate the power of the Dragon Reborn,
for example, by showing us that Dashiva feared him, or even admired or
truly followed him for the power he (Rand) had.
You know what would be a better use of Aginor? Setting him up in
Thakan'dar where he could get to work on making more frigging
Shadowspawn.

I had to re-write the whole series in order to make the Forsaken any
good.





C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Legolas
2006-10-18 15:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:47:17 +0200 -
Post by Legolas
Thanks. Dashiva, yes. I was a bit disappoined with that character.
The role of undercover agent was somwhat demeaning to one of the most
powerful people in the world, who had created the trollocs! RJ could
have used him to make us appreciate the power of the Dragon Reborn,
for example, by showing us that Dashiva feared him, or even admired or
truly followed him for the power he (Rand) had.
You know what would be a better use of Aginor? Setting him up in
Thakan'dar where he could get to work on making more frigging
Shadowspawn.
Indeed, the monster variety is a bit limited after 11 books. And too
easy to kill. I hope he'll have some new stuff for the final battle.
Post by Chucky & Janica
I had to re-write the whole series in order to make the Forsaken any
good.
Yes, I've skimmed through a satirical chapter which you posted
recently on the 'other' ng. You're a good writer. :) Are the previous
chapters posted anywhere?
--
Legolas
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-20 15:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:57:06 +0200 -
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
You know what would be a better use of Aginor? Setting him up in
Thakan'dar where he could get to work on making more frigging
Shadowspawn.
Indeed, the monster variety is a bit limited after 11 books. And too
easy to kill. I hope he'll have some new stuff for the final battle.
Wasn't there some kind of new Shadowspawn in the latest book? Sort of
servants? They were interesting, but a bit useless.
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
I had to re-write the whole series in order to make the Forsaken any
good.
Yes, I've skimmed through a satirical chapter which you posted
recently on the 'other' ng. You're a good writer. :)
He he he, thanks! I'm not above self-plugging every now and then, of
course. It hasn't driven me blind yet.
Post by Legolas
Are the previous
chapters posted anywhere?
http://www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org/gleeman/steal/stealoftime.htm

There are a few of them there, but the website is in dire need of
updating. Book Five was re-named "The Farce of Heaven". Book Six,
"Fraud of Chaos", is almost completed.




C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Chris McCrohan
2006-10-21 13:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:57:06 +0200 -
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
You know what would be a better use of Aginor? Setting him up in
Thakan'dar where he could get to work on making more frigging
Shadowspawn.
Indeed, the monster variety is a bit limited after 11 books. And too
easy to kill. I hope he'll have some new stuff for the final battle.
Wasn't there some kind of new Shadowspawn in the latest book? Sort of
servants? They were interesting, but a bit useless.
I suspect you're referring to the zomaran. They were Ba'alzamon's
servants at the Darkfriend Social in Book 2.
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-22 13:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, 21 Oct 2006 06:08:55 -0700 - there was
this guy, or something, called "Chris McCrohan"
Post by Chris McCrohan
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Legolas
Indeed, the monster variety is a bit limited after 11 books. And too
easy to kill. I hope he'll have some new stuff for the final battle.
Wasn't there some kind of new Shadowspawn in the latest book? Sort of
servants? They were interesting, but a bit useless.
I suspect you're referring to the zomaran. They were Ba'alzamon's
servants at the Darkfriend Social in Book 2.
Really? But they appeared again in one of the most recent books.




C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Legolas
2006-10-22 02:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:57:06 +0200 -
Post by Legolas
Are the previous
chapters posted anywhere?
http://www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org/gleeman/steal/stealoftime.htm
There are a few of them there, but the website is in dire need of
updating. Book Five was re-named "The Farce of Heaven". Book Six,
"Fraud of Chaos", is almost completed.
Ok, thanks. I'll take a look (although the red text on black
background hurts my eyes).
--
Legolas
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-22 13:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 22 Oct 2006 04:51:13 +0200 -
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
There are a few of them there, but the website is in dire need of
updating. Book Five was re-named "The Farce of Heaven". Book Six,
"Fraud of Chaos", is almost completed.
Ok, thanks. I'll take a look (although the red text on black
background hurts my eyes).
So I keep being told. Otherwise I might have changed it by now.

*grin*





C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
David Israel
2006-10-13 20:39:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:54:16 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
Price. I'm thinking of the boring activity of gathering components to
prepare spells in D&D CRPG's. Deadly price... Other than that (and
having to rest frequently) I can't think of any story which makes the
mage "pay" for his ability. And if they get "used up" in any way,
they're usually considered "lesser" mages. You mind refreshing my
memory?
Hmm.
Well, in Martin's stories magic generally has a price, usually
involving blood and death. Of course, a classic example is the magic
of the One Ring, which made weaker beings pay a tremendous price for
its powers. Then there's stuff like "Carnivale", where the power to
restore life and health comes at a pay-off of life being drawn out of
something/somethings/someone else. The Wheel of Time has a minor
reflection of this in Healing, which drains strength and stamina from
the person being Healed, leaving them tired and hungry. Lots of
Pratchett's magic has a price that has to be paid later (witness
Granny Weatherwax catching a sword-stroke in her bare hands, then
laying out needle and thread and bandages six months later and saying,
"alright, I'm ready.").
The price Granny paid was for catching the sword. The magic only let
her postpone that. I don't recall a cost for the magic itself. Also -
it was the day she got back to Lancre - so unless the coach was *real*
slow - it was much less than 6 months

And this has sent my average number of annual posts through the roof.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Plenty of others. Those are just a few examples off the top of our
heads.
Post by Legolas
Post by Chucky & Janica
The channelers in Wheel of Time are somewhat limited. They can burn
themselves out, which is moderately nasty.
Heh, ask Aginor, he knows how moderately nasty that is. :)
Heh. I think he got it lightly. At least he died.
Post by Legolas
Just on the side, you always post and sign as C&J together (happy
couple you are). But how does one know which of the two of you is
answering?
If we don't tell you, then it doesn't matter. If it does matter,
Janica prefaces her remarks with a [J].
Lots of total idiots have a problem with this. You're certainly not
one of them.
C&J
--
David Israel
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-15 08:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:39:09 +0200 -
there was this guy, or something, called David Israel
Post by David Israel
Post by Chucky & Janica
Well, in Martin's stories magic generally has a price, usually
involving blood and death. Of course, a classic example is the magic
of the One Ring, which made weaker beings pay a tremendous price for
its powers. Then there's stuff like "Carnivale", where the power to
restore life and health comes at a pay-off of life being drawn out of
something/somethings/someone else. The Wheel of Time has a minor
reflection of this in Healing, which drains strength and stamina from
the person being Healed, leaving them tired and hungry. Lots of
Pratchett's magic has a price that has to be paid later (witness
Granny Weatherwax catching a sword-stroke in her bare hands, then
laying out needle and thread and bandages six months later and saying,
"alright, I'm ready.").
The price Granny paid was for catching the sword. The magic only let
her postpone that. I don't recall a cost for the magic itself. Also -
it was the day she got back to Lancre - so unless the coach was *real*
slow - it was much less than 6 months
Sorry, been a while since I read it.

But you're splitting hairs. She did something magical, and paid the
price for it later. If it had been "free" magic, she would have caught
the sword and not been hurt at all, ever.
Post by David Israel
And this has sent my average number of annual posts through the roof.
Happy I could help.




C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Tim Bruening
2010-04-17 06:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:54:16 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
Price. I'm thinking of the boring activity of gathering components to
prepare spells in D&D CRPG's. Deadly price... Other than that (and
having to rest frequently) I can't think of any story which makes the
mage "pay" for his ability. And if they get "used up" in any way,
they're usually considered "lesser" mages. You mind refreshing my
memory?
Hmm.
Well, in Martin's stories magic generally has a price, usually
involving blood and death. Of course, a classic example is the magic
of the One Ring, which made weaker beings pay a tremendous price for
its powers. Then there's stuff like "Carnivale", where the power to
restore life and health comes at a pay-off of life being drawn out of
something/somethings/someone else. The Wheel of Time has a minor
reflection of this in Healing, which drains strength and stamina from
the person being Healed, leaving them tired and hungry. Lots of
Pratchett's magic has a price that has to be paid later (witness
Granny Weatherwax catching a sword-stroke in her bare hands, then
laying out needle and thread and bandages six months later and saying,
"alright, I'm ready.").
How did she sew up her own injuried hands?

Chris McCrohan
2006-10-09 18:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
They can't fly or raise the dead either ... but then, this is just
what has been said. It has also been said that they can't heal
stilling, and so on and so forth. And yet, they can. Maybe the rest of
these "can't be done" acts can actually be done, it's just that nobody
knows how anymore (flying, for example, used to be known ... what
puzzles me is, why did they have flying Aes Sedai and giant sho-wings,
when they could just Travel?).
The Wheel of Time turns, leaving memories that become legend. I don't
think Aes Sedai were ever able to fly. However, 'modern' AS have been
living at a mediaeval level of technology for millenia, so they would
simply have no concept of a flying machine. However, they do have a
vague oral memory of people being able to fly in the AoL; not being
able to imagine sho-wings, they naturally ascribe this 'ability' to the
awesomeness of ancient Aes Sedai.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Just on the side, you always post and sign as C&J together (happy
couple you are). But how does one know which of the two of you is
answering?
As another aside, do you have to manually type the 'Once upon a time -
for example, [date] - there was this guy, or something...' bit etc? Or
is there some whay that it gets typed automatically?

(Apologies if this is a stupid question, but I'm a Usenet newbie)
Mark Proctor
2006-10-09 21:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris McCrohan
Post by Chucky & Janica
They can't fly or raise the dead either ... but then, this is just
what has been said. It has also been said that they can't heal
stilling, and so on and so forth. And yet, they can. Maybe the rest of
these "can't be done" acts can actually be done, it's just that nobody
knows how anymore (flying, for example, used to be known ... what
puzzles me is, why did they have flying Aes Sedai and giant sho-wings,
when they could just Travel?).
The guy who invented flying wanted to clean his windows but couldn't find a
ladder and the rest just liked to show off to all the plebs, hey look at me
i am an Aes Sedai, i can fly you can't ner ner ner.
Post by Chris McCrohan
The Wheel of Time turns, leaving memories that become legend. I don't
think Aes Sedai were ever able to fly. However, 'modern' AS have been
living at a mediaeval level of technology for millenia, so they would
simply have no concept of a flying machine. However, they do have a
vague oral memory of people being able to fly in the AoL; not being
able to imagine sho-wings, they naturally ascribe this 'ability' to the
awesomeness of ancient Aes Sedai.
I am sure at leased one character in the books has stood on a column of air
above the ground, if i saw that but couldn't see how they were doing it, i
would describe think of it as flying.
Post by Chris McCrohan
Post by Chucky & Janica
Just on the side, you always post and sign as C&J together (happy
couple you are). But how does one know which of the two of you is
answering?
is it either maybe they have a very convincing computer program which
appears human enough to post messages.
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-10 17:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 22:52:36 +0100 - there
was this guy, or something, called "Mark Proctor"
Post by Mark Proctor
Post by Chucky & Janica
They can't fly or raise the dead either ... but then, this is just
what has been said. It has also been said that they can't heal
stilling, and so on and so forth. And yet, they can. Maybe the rest of
these "can't be done" acts can actually be done, it's just that nobody
knows how anymore (flying, for example, used to be known ... what
puzzles me is, why did they have flying Aes Sedai and giant sho-wings,
when they could just Travel?).
The guy who invented flying wanted to clean his windows but couldn't find a
ladder and the rest just liked to show off to all the plebs, hey look at me
i am an Aes Sedai, i can fly you can't ner ner ner.
Hee hee. I think a lot of people would fly if they could. In a lot of
ways I suppose it would be more fun than just the "walking into the
next room" routine that Traveling would become.
Post by Mark Proctor
I am sure at leased one character in the books has stood on a column of air
above the ground, if i saw that but couldn't see how they were doing it, i
would describe think of it as flying.
One or another of the channelers made a platform of Air for Elayne to
tightrope walk across. I don't think she could do it for herself,
though. That was against the Rules.

As far as I recall.
Post by Mark Proctor
Post by Chucky & Janica
Just on the side, you always post and sign as C&J together (happy
couple you are). But how does one know which of the two of you is
answering?
is it either maybe they have a very convincing computer program which
appears human enough to post messages.
You know too much.

Move your head closer to your monitor for a minute. This won't hurt.
Me.





C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
David Israel
2006-10-13 20:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Proctor
Post by Chris McCrohan
Post by Chucky & Janica
They can't fly or raise the dead either ... but then, this is just
what has been said. It has also been said that they can't heal
stilling, and so on and so forth. And yet, they can. Maybe the rest of
these "can't be done" acts can actually be done, it's just that nobody
knows how anymore (flying, for example, used to be known ... what
puzzles me is, why did they have flying Aes Sedai and giant sho-wings,
when they could just Travel?).
The guy who invented flying wanted to clean his windows but couldn't find a
ladder and the rest just liked to show off to all the plebs, hey look at me
i am an Aes Sedai, i can fly you can't ner ner ner.
Post by Chris McCrohan
The Wheel of Time turns, leaving memories that become legend. I don't
think Aes Sedai were ever able to fly. However, 'modern' AS have been
living at a mediaeval level of technology for millenia, so they would
simply have no concept of a flying machine. However, they do have a
vague oral memory of people being able to fly in the AoL; not being
able to imagine sho-wings, they naturally ascribe this 'ability' to the
awesomeness of ancient Aes Sedai.
I am sure at leased one character in the books has stood on a column of air
above the ground, if i saw that but couldn't see how they were doing it, i
would describe think of it as flying.
Wasn't that Rand, creating a bridge for himself and Min to cross over to
the Sea Folk's ship?
Post by Mark Proctor
Post by Chris McCrohan
Post by Chucky & Janica
Just on the side, you always post and sign as C&J together (happy
couple you are). But how does one know which of the two of you is
answering?
is it either maybe they have a very convincing computer program which
appears human enough to post messages.
--
David Israel
Tim Bruening
2010-04-17 06:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Israel
Post by Mark Proctor
Post by Chris McCrohan
Post by Chucky & Janica
They can't fly or raise the dead either ... but then, this is just
what has been said. It has also been said that they can't heal
stilling, and so on and so forth. And yet, they can. Maybe the rest of
these "can't be done" acts can actually be done, it's just that nobody
knows how anymore (flying, for example, used to be known ... what
puzzles me is, why did they have flying Aes Sedai and giant sho-wings,
when they could just Travel?).
The guy who invented flying wanted to clean his windows but couldn't find a
ladder and the rest just liked to show off to all the plebs, hey look at me
i am an Aes Sedai, i can fly you can't ner ner ner.
Post by Chris McCrohan
The Wheel of Time turns, leaving memories that become legend. I don't
think Aes Sedai were ever able to fly. However, 'modern' AS have been
living at a mediaeval level of technology for millenia, so they would
simply have no concept of a flying machine. However, they do have a
vague oral memory of people being able to fly in the AoL; not being
able to imagine sho-wings, they naturally ascribe this 'ability' to the
awesomeness of ancient Aes Sedai.
I am sure at leased one character in the books has stood on a column of air
above the ground, if i saw that but couldn't see how they were doing it, i
would describe think of it as flying.
Wasn't that Rand, creating a bridge for himself and Min to cross over to
the Sea Folk's ship?
Also the Salidar Sitters literally Raising the new Amyrlin on a platform of air.
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-10 17:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, 9 Oct 2006 11:18:48 -0700 - there was
this guy, or something, called "Chris McCrohan"
Post by Chris McCrohan
Post by Chucky & Janica
They can't fly or raise the dead either ... but then, this is just
what has been said. It has also been said that they can't heal
stilling, and so on and so forth. And yet, they can. Maybe the rest of
these "can't be done" acts can actually be done, it's just that nobody
knows how anymore (flying, for example, used to be known ... what
puzzles me is, why did they have flying Aes Sedai and giant sho-wings,
when they could just Travel?).
The Wheel of Time turns, leaving memories that become legend. I don't
think Aes Sedai were ever able to fly. However, 'modern' AS have been
living at a mediaeval level of technology for millenia, so they would
simply have no concept of a flying machine. However, they do have a
vague oral memory of people being able to fly in the AoL; not being
able to imagine sho-wings, they naturally ascribe this 'ability' to the
awesomeness of ancient Aes Sedai.
That makes a lot of sense.
Post by Chris McCrohan
Post by Chucky & Janica
Just on the side, you always post and sign as C&J together (happy
couple you are). But how does one know which of the two of you is
answering?
As another aside, do you have to manually type the 'Once upon a time -
for example, [date] - there was this guy, or something...' bit etc? Or
is there some whay that it gets typed automatically?
Welcome to Usenet!

It's an automatic header. You can add them to your posts - along with
the signature - with most newsreaders. They're a basic alteration to
the standard "x wrote:". The program we use is Free Agent, but most
newsreaders have them.

I can't actually remember the last time we altered this. Nothing
personal, anyway. I'm sure you're a guy, or something. *wink*



C&J
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Mark Proctor
2006-10-09 22:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Sun, 8 Oct 2006 01:42:07 +0200 - there
Post by Legolas
I don't think anyone would agree to sacrifice their ability to channel
in order to make an object that *others* will be able to use (they can
link to achieve the same effect). Especially since stilling is so
painful, worse than dying.
I agree, but on slightly different grounds. I think this is a very
cool idea. It's too cool for this series. It doesn't seem like magic
works this way.
I have little or nothing to base this on, just the impression I get
from the series in general. This sort of "magic has a price" idea
doesn't fit.
Everything else that can be don't with channelling seems to depend on skill
(+talent) and the channellers (+assistance from a circle, angreal etc)
power. The only danger seems to be making a mistake or drawing too much
power at one time.
I don't see that there would be anything intrinsically different about
making a sa'angreal, if you were smart enough to figure out a way and strong
enough to complete it before you were exhausted it probably wouldn't be much
different to making any other ter'angreal


mark.
Chucky & Janica
2006-10-10 17:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time - for example, Mon, 9 Oct 2006 23:11:40 +0100 - there
was this guy, or something, called "Mark Proctor"
Post by Mark Proctor
Post by Chucky & Janica
I have little or nothing to base this on, just the impression I get
from the series in general. This sort of "magic has a price" idea
doesn't fit.
Everything else that can be don't with channelling seems to depend on skill
(+talent) and the channellers (+assistance from a circle, angreal etc)
power. The only danger seems to be making a mistake or drawing too much
power at one time.
I don't see that there would be anything intrinsically different about
making a sa'angreal, if you were smart enough to figure out a way and strong
enough to complete it before you were exhausted it probably wouldn't be much
different to making any other ter'angreal
A much better explanation than my vague "gut feeling". Thanks. I'll go
along with a big "yeah, what he said", on that. It just doesn't seem
to fit with the magic system Jordan has invented, with the dubious
exception of the Eye of the World.

Of course, Jordan seems to change the rules as he goes along. In Book
One he says that objects can't hold the One Power. In Book Nine or
Ten, he tells us about Wells[1].





C&J

[1] Okay. Moiraine tells us about objects not being able to hold the
One Power, and she might not know that Wells exist. But how likely is
that? And why, when she is confronted with the Eye of the World, does
her head not explode with gooey paradox?
--
Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads.

- 13 & 13b of 12, the CMM Collective.
- www.afrj-monkeyhouse.org
Tux Wonder-Dog
2006-10-08 11:21:40 UTC
Permalink
Personally, I think it unlikely. Extreme exhaustion, yes. Stilling, no.

The differences between ter'angreal, and angreal and sa'angreal, would
appear to account for the speed of Elayne in learning and teaching
ter'angreal manufacture, whereas angreal and sa'angreal are more reactive,
so she stands a greater risk of stilling herself or killing herslef
whenever she attempts to learn their manufacture. Think of the difference
between etching using a mild acid like sulfuric acid versus the joys of
handling fluorine, hydrofluoric acid or white phosphorus.

Just my 0.02c

Wesley Parish
Post by l***@gmail.com
I was just thinking, now that even healing's been discovered, what
about angreal and s'angreal.
It's been mentioned numerous times through the Wheel of Time that the
making of s'angreal had been lost since the Breaking of the World.
But right now in Randland, a lot of things assumed to be lost since the
stilling) not even known to the AOL Aes Sedaiare being practised. Thus
it bugs me that after all that no one has discovered how angreal and
the s'angreal work still yet. Elayne's studies enabled her to make
ter'angreal, and though everyone believes she'll go on to figure
out the making of ter'angreal, no further developments have been
mentioned yet. There's also the fact that, when Nynaeve and Elayne
held Mogehdien captive and extracted the secrets of the One Power from
her, they neglected to ask her about the making of angreal. I don't
think Robert Jordan just let such an opportunity slip. I think he was
really just not mentioning it because it was supposed to be a secret
until the end of the book.
On to how I think sa'angreal (and angreal) are made. Since they
magnify how much one power you can use, I think they involve a
chaneller sacrificing his/her abilities in order for them to be made. I
say this because something worth as much as an angreal requires a
decent price to be made. It's worth its weight in blood, not gold.
And the most precious thing an Aes Sedai possesses, more than even
their life, is their ability to channel. Maybe angreal only require
that you give up a portion of our chanelling abilities, but I believe
to make a s'angreal, an Aes Sedai would have to effectively
still/gentle themselves. This also explains why some angreal /
s'angreal can be used only by men while other can be wielded only by
men - it depends on whether a male of female gave up their chanelling
abilities.
Thus proposed, this leads us to think, why were s'angreal even made
in the first place, if the price paid to make them was so high? The
only answer is, they weren't made routinely. I'm guessing that the
only time when they made them was during the War of Power, when the Aes
Sedai of the Light desperately needed every advantage they could have
above the Forsaken and the Dreadlords. Times were hard enough then that
Aes Sedai could actually see sense in giving up their abilities so the
more powerful of them could channel powerfully enough to stand up to
the likes of Lanfear and Ishamael.
Still not convinced? Well, there's also the fact that while the
making of angreal and s'angreal were both lost since the Age of
Legends, the making of ter'angreal was lost too, but there's still
a lot more ter'angreal in the world than either angreal or
s'angreal. Since they were all lost about the same time after the
Breaking of the World, then it makes sense that even before the
Breaking, ter'angreal existed in larger numbers because they were
much easier to make, the price much more easily paid.
There's also some proof from the context of the books that compounds
my theory. Let's take Callandor, for instance. Callandor is pretty
much famous among Wot fans as the only sa'angreal without a buffer
from the Dark One. It think the reason for this is, Callandor was made
by the original dragon, Lews Therin himself, when he died. His own
chanelling abilites were transferred to Callandor and whether it was
Ishamael's intervention (read EoW prologue) or the Dark One's
counterstroke that made Lews Therin's chanelling so harmful is
anyone's guess, but Callandor is unique in that way due to the fact
that Lews Therin himself made. It can also explain why Rand was the
only one able to wield it.
--
"Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was
lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I
get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she
fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.
Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!
--------------------------------
notcatweazle.wordpress.com - Some unmagical musings
Christer Jacobsson
2006-11-08 19:42:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 11:21:40 UTC, Tux Wonder-Dog
Post by Tux Wonder-Dog
Personally, I think it unlikely. Extreme exhaustion, yes. Stilling, no.
The differences between ter'angreal, and angreal and sa'angreal, would
appear to account for the speed of Elayne in learning and teaching
ter'angreal manufacture, whereas angreal and sa'angreal are more reactive,
so she stands a greater risk of stilling herself or killing herslef
whenever she attempts to learn their manufacture. Think of the difference
between etching using a mild acid like sulfuric acid versus the joys of
handling fluorine, hydrofluoric acid or white phosphorus.
Handling UF6 is even more fun, especially if it's 90% U235 :-)
Juggling subcritical pieces of Pu239 can be *even* more fun to
perform...


But it has bugged me no end that Elayne is so wimpish that she won't
even try making *angreals. She KNOWS
from Min's Viewing that her babes will be born healthy and strong no
matter what she does and she KNOWS that
Min's Viewings always come true. They dont always come true in the
(relative) near future but they DO come
true eventually. Elayne, drop that over-cautious attitude and begin to
do some serious *angreal tinkering: it may
well be needed before TG starts.

And my sincere hope is that we will see both Elayne's and Avi's babes on
camera before the series ends - with
the actual birthing process being described :-)

gaea - feminist
--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 10rd Anniversary & 26th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Team OS/2 e-mail: ***@gaea.se (Primary)
Team eCs e-mail: ***@yahoo.com (Alternate)
Chunkawakan
XenocideLuvver
2006-11-20 01:48:00 UTC
Permalink
on webcam?! aiyah that'll be like watching the "Science Movie" all over
again ^.^ man first time I say that, I swore that I was gonna adopt...
Post by Christer Jacobsson
On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 11:21:40 UTC, Tux Wonder-Dog
Post by Tux Wonder-Dog
Personally, I think it unlikely. Extreme exhaustion, yes. Stilling, no.
The differences between ter'angreal, and angreal and sa'angreal, would
appear to account for the speed of Elayne in learning and teaching
ter'angreal manufacture, whereas angreal and sa'angreal are more reactive,
so she stands a greater risk of stilling herself or killing herslef
whenever she attempts to learn their manufacture. Think of the difference
between etching using a mild acid like sulfuric acid versus the joys of
handling fluorine, hydrofluoric acid or white phosphorus.
Handling UF6 is even more fun, especially if it's 90% U235 :-)
Juggling subcritical pieces of Pu239 can be *even* more fun to
perform...
But it has bugged me no end that Elayne is so wimpish that she won't
even try making *angreals. She KNOWS
from Min's Viewing that her babes will be born healthy and strong no
matter what she does and she KNOWS that
Min's Viewings always come true. They dont always come true in the
(relative) near future but they DO come
true eventually. Elayne, drop that over-cautious attitude and begin to
do some serious *angreal tinkering: it may
well be needed before TG starts.
And my sincere hope is that we will see both Elayne's and Avi's babes on
camera before the series ends - with
the actual birthing process being described :-)
gaea - feminist
--
/GAIA (Insulin User - 10rd Anniversary & 26th Wedding Anniversary! :-))
Chunkawakan
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