Discussion:
Spoiler-free review of KoD
(too old to reply)
Jason Denzel
2005-08-22 17:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi folks,

I had an opportunity to read KNIFE OF DREAMS. Below is my "spoiler
free" review. If you want to pass this around, please use this link
here.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/08/22/kids_cars/index.html

Thanks!



=================
Standard Disclaimer: I say "spoiler-free"... and it's true. I won't
give away specific plot elements, but the review will likely hint at a
few things. Also, by the very nature of the fact that I'm going to talk
about the book, I can't exactly hide some things which some die hard
fans consider spoilers. (You know who you are). By reading this, you're
going to find out who's in the books. But overall, I'm not going to
ruin anything.

=Introduction=
Well once again, here we are, waiting for the new Robert Jordan book to
come out. I think it would be an understatement to say that
anticipation amongst fans for Knife of Dreams is really high, and a lot
of people are still grumbling after Crossroads of Twilight. Before I
get into Knife of Dreams, though, I should remind you that a lot of you
didn't agree with my review of Crossroads. I said CoT wasn't all that
bad, and if you look at the big picture, it's actually enjoyable. Some
of you thought I was nuts, but many of you seemed to agree with me on
my other New Spring review. So maybe we're not all that far apart.

Anyway, I don't think it will matter this time. You're going to love
this book as much as I did.

=Time is running out =
No doubt about it: The Dark One is breaking free. Oh, he isn't free yet
of course. But he's getting there. Remember all those weevils in CoT?
Remember those "scary" but harmless ghosts? They're all back, but the
weevils aren't so rare, and the ghosts aren't so harmless. Even the
infamous wind from the opening of chapter one is (as many of you
already know), touched with ash and not just a gentle breeze.
Practically every chapter gives us signs that something isn't right in
the world anymore. The stakes are higher, time is running out, and the
heroes -- as well as Jordan -- know it. The result: stuff happens.
Better yet: stuff finishes.

I was surprised when the first plot thread was completed. I thought to
myself, "Will I ever read about this person again? Could it actually be
possible that I've read their entire story now?" I stopped thinking
that to myself by the time Jordan wrapped up his 4th or 5th plot line.
Then more story lines got wrapped up, at least to the extent where I
don't need to hear about a certain character again without feeling
cheated. All of the major plot lines advance. Some are completed. (Have
fun with that statement on the message boards). Lots of smaller plot
lines are resolved or brought near conclusion. I haven't done a full
count, but a few days after the book's released I'm sure every website
will have a tally going.

One particuarly refreshing thing I noticed in this novel, more so than
the other most recent novels in the series, was how Jordan introduces
new elements: people / items / places / stories, whatever, and then
resolves them completely in the same book. Also, remember all those
chapters in previous books that you read where you wondered who this
person was and why were you reading about him or her? Knife of Dreams
answers a lot of those. Sometimes in very big or surprising ways. More
than one tiny character suddenly bumps into a much bigger character
and, well, things happen.

Even when the pacing slowed down, RJ suddenly hits us with some
interesting tidbit. Little snacks for the long ride, with the promise
of a big dinner coming up.

=So, stuff happens. But is it any good? =
In the words of Grandpa from The Princess Bride: "Are you kidding?
Fencing, fighting, torture, revenge, giants, monsters, chases, escapes,
true love...!" It's all there. All of it, and more. And not just at the
end of the novel. The middle of the book is packed with stuff. I can
honestly say, without hyperbole, that this novel is the most focused,
most action-packed book in the latter half of the series. This book
contains more death and dying than any other WoT novel. Talk about a
body count! Not to mention a lot of answers to questions we've been
asking for a while.

(That little chill that may have just run down your spine, or the
excited giggle that you let escape, was how I felt several times when
RJ delivered some long over-due answers or shared a particuarly good
action sequence.)

But despite all the Deathgates, zomaran, and bolt cranks, the best
parts of this book center on the main characters finally reaching what
is probably (or will be) the pinnacle of their destinies. To Emma, the
webmaster of the official Nynaeve fan club: your heroine might have
played out her biggest plot point by helping to cleanse saidin, but she
stole the show in this book with one particular chapter about half-way
through. All of you will know which chapter it is. After that powerful,
emotional chapter, I had to put the book down for a while. Sign me up
for Emma's club.

All good stories are filled with iconic moments. They're those moments
that are so good that they stick with you and are often all you
remember years later when the details of the books fade. Moments like
Rand taking Callandor, Mat hanging from the Tree of Life, Dumai's
Wells, and Elayne putting on her 5th robe in as many pages. (Okay,
kidding about that last one. You get the picture). Knife of Dreams has
several of those iconic moments. The above mentioned Nynaeve moment, a
certain vision coming true, a critical change in Rand, and yes, even
Egwene's special tea. (That's not a joke). All of them are iconic
moments in my mind. Not too big, however. You can tell that even now
Robert Jordan is holding onto his best cards for the final novel. The
biggest battles and encounters are yet to come. The end of the novel is
not as abrupt as CoT, but it was just enough to whet my appetite for
the last book.

=Boiling it down =
Knife of Dreams is a strong, strong addition to the series. It is not,
however, all action and secrets revealed. Like the rest of the novels,
the narrative is long and conservatively paced. It wouldn't be Robert
Jordan if we didn't get every detail of armor, every insight into the
situation, and yes, a description of every dress in the room. It's his
style and you probably would not have made it this far if you didn't
enjoy it on some level by now. Also, although I understand that the
sub-plots need to happen, but I confess I wish there was more of Rand
in particular. Don't get me wrong: he's in this book (way more than he
was in CoT), he does a lot of stuff, gets in trouble doing it of
course, and all the things that Rand normally does. But oh how I wish
we had just a little more time with him. Fortunately, Jordan cleared up
enough plots in this novel that I'm guessing we're going to see an
abundance for al'Thor in the final novel. I mean, we've got to, right?

As every chapter reminds us, the Last Battle is coming. Plots are
burned away, minor characters fade, and long kept secrets are revealed.
All eyes are turning towards the same direction, and the question is
being asked: Who rides for Tarmon Gai'don? After reading Knife of
Dreams, easily the most enjoyable overall book in the series in years,
I am absolutely certain that I'll ride with Robert Jordan into the
final Wheel of Time novel.
Rajiv Mote
2005-08-22 17:10:47 UTC
Permalink
I was sure I was going to regret reading this post. But I didn't. I'm
rather cheered by it. Champing at the bit, but in a cheery way. I'll
still try to hold on to some expectation-management, but I've just put
in for vacation on October 11th, and am looking forward to enjoying it
thoroughly.

Thanks, Jason.
Dave Smith
2005-08-22 18:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Jason Denzel wrote:

<snip long KoD review>

Nice review, now I want KoD in my hands even more. Before I was just
kinda anticipating it, but since I was one of the few who agreed with
your CoT review, it makes this review that much better.
--
Dave Smith
Rast
2005-08-22 18:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
Hi folks,
I had an opportunity to read KNIFE OF DREAMS. Below is my "spoiler
free" review. If you want to pass this around, please use this link
here.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/08/22/kids_cars/index.html
-snip the review-

Wrong URL.



Have you reviewed any other WoT books, and if so where can I read those
reviews?
--
"Ruleless 'law' will be a political weapon and control of the
judiciary will therefore be a political prize. 'Democracy' will
consist of the chaotic struggle to influence decision makers who are
not responsive to elections." -- Robert Bork
Jason Denzel
2005-08-22 18:49:04 UTC
Permalink
OOPS! Sorry about the wrong URL.
Serves me right.

If you want to pass it around use,
http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Knife_of_Dreams/review.php

J
Robert Mee
2005-08-22 18:37:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
Hi folks,
I had an opportunity to read KNIFE OF DREAMS. Below is my "spoiler
free" review. If you want to pass this around, please use this link
here.
<Snip Review>

Jason,

First, you are an incredibly lucky person to have had the opportunity
to review KoD already. Thanks for the very detailed and excellent
spoiler-free review. I am glad that, even after taking more than a year
to finish CoT, I was right to not give up what little hope I had left
that things would come to a close. I cannot WAIT for October at this point.

Again, many thanks.
vecki
2005-08-23 00:37:32 UTC
Permalink
*delurks*

That does it. I want spoilers *now*.

And the actual book, of course.

~*~
vecki
Mark Erikson
2005-08-23 15:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
Hi folks,
Yeah, hey.
Post by Jason Denzel
=Time is running out =
No doubt about it: The Dark One is breaking free. Oh, he isn't free yet
of course. But he's getting there. Remember all those weevils in CoT?
Remember those "scary" but harmless ghosts? They're all back, but the
weevils aren't so rare, and the ghosts aren't so harmless. Even the
infamous wind from the opening of chapter one is (as many of you
already know), touched with ash and not just a gentle breeze.
Practically every chapter gives us signs that something isn't right in
the world anymore. The stakes are higher, time is running out, and the
heroes -- as well as Jordan -- know it. The result: stuff happens.
Better yet: stuff finishes.
I was surprised when the first plot thread was completed. I thought to
myself, "Will I ever read about this person again? Could it actually be
possible that I've read their entire story now?" I stopped thinking
that to myself by the time Jordan wrapped up his 4th or 5th plot line.
Then more story lines got wrapped up, at least to the extent where I
don't need to hear about a certain character again without feeling
cheated. All of the major plot lines advance. Some are completed. (Have
fun with that statement on the message boards). Lots of smaller plot
lines are resolved or brought near conclusion. I haven't done a full
count, but a few days after the book's released I'm sure every website
will have a tally going.
Okay, reading this doesn't fill me with anticipation.

If I believed that Jordan could write, and plot, and interweave
narative...just basically construct a book the way he did with tSR,
then yeah, I'd believe all this. I could see it happening in a
well-paced, highly satisfying fashion.

But after CoT, and WH, and tPoD, I don't believe that anymore. I don't
think he's capable of putting that much into one book without making it
seem like a synopsis, rather than an actual story.
Post by Jason Denzel
One particuarly refreshing thing I noticed in this novel, more so than
the other most recent novels in the series, was how Jordan introduces
new elements: people / items / places / stories, whatever, and then
resolves them completely in the same book. Also, remember all those
chapters in previous books that you read where you wondered who this
person was and why were you reading about him or her? Knife of Dreams
answers a lot of those. Sometimes in very big or surprising ways. More
than one tiny character suddenly bumps into a much bigger character
and, well, things happen.
Even when the pacing slowed down, RJ suddenly hits us with some
interesting tidbit. Little snacks for the long ride, with the promise
of a big dinner coming up.
=So, stuff happens. But is it any good? =
In the words of Grandpa from The Princess Bride: "Are you kidding?
Fencing, fighting, torture, revenge, giants, monsters, chases, escapes,
true love...!" It's all there. All of it, and more. And not just at the
end of the novel. The middle of the book is packed with stuff. I can
honestly say, without hyperbole, that this novel is the most focused,
most action-packed book in the latter half of the series. This book
contains more death and dying than any other WoT novel. Talk about a
body count! Not to mention a lot of answers to questions we've been
asking for a while.
The later half of the series? That isn't saying much.
Post by Jason Denzel
But despite all the Deathgates, zomaran, and bolt cranks,
This, though, does get me a little excited. Unless these are some kind
of weird joke I'm missing.
Post by Jason Denzel
All good stories are filled with iconic moments. They're those moments
that are so good that they stick with you and are often all you
remember years later when the details of the books fade. Moments like
Rand taking Callandor, Mat hanging from the Tree of Life, Dumai's
Wells,
Uh, those aren't really the iconic moments I think of. Mat hanging
from the Tree of Life is a pretty cool imagine, if you summon it up in
your head after the fact, but in the book it isn't written in quite the
"iconic" way you seem to imply. Maybe only because it follows the
Rhuidean Pillars, which is probably _the_ iconic moment from WOT, which
you didn't mention at all.

Dumai's Wells the battle, no. Taim saying "kneel or be kneeled", yes,
most certainly.
Post by Jason Denzel
=Boiling it down =
Knife of Dreams is a strong, strong addition to the series. It is not,
however, all action and secrets revealed. Like the rest of the novels,
the narrative is long and conservatively paced. It wouldn't be Robert
Jordan if we didn't get every detail of armor, every insight into the
situation, and yes, a description of every dress in the room. It's his
style and you probably would not have made it this far if you didn't
enjoy it on some level by now.
Fuck no. I enjoyed the books back when he didn't describe clothing at
all. I read the new ones because, as I've said before, Jordan still
has the best fantasy plot around, though it lacks pretty much
everything else you want from a fantasy these days.

And what does "slashed with green" mean anyway? Are these some kind of
dress/football jumper combo?
Post by Jason Denzel
As every chapter reminds us, the Last Battle is coming. Plots are
burned away, minor characters fade, and long kept secrets are revealed.
All eyes are turning towards the same direction, and the question is
being asked: Who rides for Tarmon Gai'don? After reading Knife of
Dreams, easily the most enjoyable overall book in the series in years,
I am absolutely certain that I'll ride with Robert Jordan into the
final Wheel of Time novel.
Well, I think I'll probably just read the books...

All that said, yeah, I'm looking forward to KoD more than I've looked
forward to a WOT book since tPoD. And I still haven't finished CoT -
I'll probably pull it out and polish it off the night before KoD comes
out.

The review was much appreciated, I enjoyed reading it. I'll just
reserve my judgement until I've read the actual book. You did, after
all, give me a whole lot of false hope for CoT.

-Mark Erikson
Lorfarius
2005-08-23 15:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Erikson
The review was much appreciated, I enjoyed reading it. I'll just
reserve my judgement until I've read the actual book. You did, after
all, give me a whole lot of false hope for CoT.
-Mark Erikson
Still have a copy of the CoT review? Just to compare?
Dave Smith
2005-08-23 18:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorfarius
Post by Mark Erikson
The review was much appreciated, I enjoyed reading it. I'll just
reserve my judgement until I've read the actual book. You did, after
all, give me a whole lot of false hope for CoT.
-Mark Erikson
Still have a copy of the CoT review? Just to compare?
I'm guessing if you search around Dragonmount.com you can find a copy
yourself.
--
Dave Smith
Jason Denzel
2005-08-23 16:14:41 UTC
Permalink
YEah, I still get reamed for the CoT review. I stand by that review,
but I'm also much more mellow when it comes to these books. They are
what they are, and I look at them as one big story arc.

But I as I said, really, this book is good. I don't think it's as good
as tSR, or FoH (the best books in the series in my opinion) but it's
certainly filled with a lot of incident. CoT was the book where there
wasn't a lot of forward motion, but all characters were drawn and lined
up with their targets so to speak. The Seanchan, if you have not
noticed, are the glue which is uniting all of the main characters in
that book. In KoD, the arrows are loosed. Some nail their targets.
Some obliterate their targets. A few are still sailing and won't hit
until book 12. But there are very few arrows left that have not been
fired.

That said, it doesn't mean there are no slow parts in KoD. There are.
But I found that by the time I was starting to wonder when something
good would happen, it did. But I also recall having similar thoughts
for FoH, and CoS, and LoC.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Glad the review got you thinking about
it again.
J
Sagel
2005-08-23 17:19:41 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Jason Denzel
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Glad the review got you thinking about
it again.
J
How were you able to get access to the book so early?

And so, uh...who killed Asmodean?

Sagan
Lorfarius
2005-08-23 17:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sagel
<snip>
Post by Jason Denzel
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Glad the review got you thinking about
it again.
J
How were you able to get access to the book so early?
And so, uh...who killed Asmodean?
Sagan
The butler did it!
Dave Smith
2005-08-23 18:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sagel
<snip>
Post by Jason Denzel
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Glad the review got you thinking about
it again.
J
How were you able to get access to the book so early?
And so, uh...who killed Asmodean?
Since Jason is the webmaster of Dragonmount.com, I'm guessing he got an
ARC as part of Tor's marketing campaign.
--
Dave Smith
Rast
2005-08-23 19:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
YEah, I still get reamed for the CoT review. I stand by that review,
And that's why I can't take your KoD review seriously.

It's remotely possible that the Brain Eater has regurgitated RJ's mind,
and the series has returned to the quality of the early books. Hell, I'd
be happy if KoD was even as good as the 6th and 7th books.

It's likely that KoD is a little bit better than CoT. That's still awful.

Sadly, it is quite possible that KoD is significantly worse than CoT.

But your review gives me no information, because I've learned that your
reviews of RJ's books aren't based on the quality of those books.
Post by Jason Denzel
http://www.dragonmount.com/Community/Columns/Gleemans_Corner/2002-12-03.aspx
--
"Ruleless 'law' will be a political weapon and control of the
judiciary will therefore be a political prize. 'Democracy' will
consist of the chaotic struggle to influence decision makers who are
not responsive to elections." -- Robert Bork
Jason Denzel
2005-08-23 19:27:08 UTC
Permalink
Fair enough. Let's chat again after you've read KoD? That way, when I
do an early review for Book 12, you'll know to ignore me or not. SOund
good?

FYI -- I also did an early New Spring review, which I received no
complains about. Check back in the archives and see if we're eye to eye
on that one.

:)
J
Lorfarius
2005-08-23 19:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
Fair enough. Let's chat again after you've read KoD? That way, when I
do an early review for Book 12, you'll know to ignore me or not. SOund
good?
FYI -- I also did an early New Spring review, which I received no
complains about. Check back in the archives and see if we're eye to eye
on that one.
:)
J
Personally I thought there was nothing wrong with your review. It was great
to see a good lack of spoilers as well as the chance to be enticed to read
the novel when its finally released. For all you complainers out there just
remember that a review is ONLY an opinion :)
j***@cub.kcnet.org
2005-08-23 22:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rast
Post by Jason Denzel
YEah, I still get reamed for the CoT review. I stand by that review,
And that's why I can't take your KoD review seriously.
The NS:TN one was good for nothing but laughs as well. I'm
not sure about WH, but I was never impressed with that one like
so many were, so no doubt I laughed long and hard at his review
of that, too.
Post by Rast
It's remotely possible that the Brain Eater has regurgitated RJ's mind,
and the series has returned to the quality of the early books. Hell, I'd
be happy if KoD was even as good as the 6th and 7th books.
It's likely that KoD is a little bit better than CoT. That's still awful.
Sadly, it is quite possible that KoD is significantly worse than CoT.
I think this is my main worry. That, yes ideed, Jordan can go
further than the wreck that was COT and produce not only a worse
book in KOD, but manage to really destroy the series as a whole.

It is fun to see the shrill schilling though.
Post by Rast
But your review gives me no information, because I've learned that your
reviews of RJ's books aren't based on the quality of those books.
Even if you discount the whole schill factor involved, its not
really a review as there is really no reference to actual content.
Not that I would believe this particular reviewer based on past reports
either. But therein lies the flaws of posting a spoiler free review as
well. Other than to tell us he has the book that no one else does
and he likes it. Wow. I guess he has to justify to Jordan and Tor his

exalted status somehow, though. And if anything Jason Denzel telling
me the book is wonderful takes some of the anticpatory edge off a bit.
Now I can relax a little bit until a real review comes our way.

Not that the infomercial approach of the review means KOD will
be bad of course. But getting excited based on a denzel review
is like buying a book because Harriet Klausner gave it five stars
at amazon.com. Or worse, listing Kevin Trudeau as my prefered
health care specialist on my insurance policy.

---
JSH
David Chapman
2005-08-23 23:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Not that the infomercial approach of the review means KOD will
be bad of course. But getting excited based on a denzel review
is like buying a book because Harriet Klausner gave it five stars
at amazon.com.
Though I get the idea on the back of Denzel being a shameless whore for
Jordan, I'm not familiar with Harriet Klausner. Is she just a shameless
whore for everyone, or is there something else?
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Or worse, listing Kevin Trudeau as my prefered
health care specialist on my insurance policy.
By a bizarre coincidence, the first review I found on Amazon's About Harriet
Klausner page is for a book called The Trudeau Vector. This will probably
instil great mirth in those who *do* know what John is talking about.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
Richard Boye
2005-08-23 23:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Chapman
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Not that the infomercial approach of the review means KOD will
be bad of course. But getting excited based on a denzel review
is like buying a book because Harriet Klausner gave it five stars
at amazon.com.
Though I get the idea on the back of Denzel being a shameless whore for
Jordan, I'm not familiar with Harriet Klausner. Is she just a shameless
whore for everyone, or is there something else?
I am not saying that Jason is a shameless whore for anyone, but I am
saying that you got the second part right, except she seems to be a pro
bono whore. She seems to do it for no reason at all, and to no
discernable benefit to herself.

Harriet Klausner is infamous as being Amazon.com's No.1 Reviewer, which
means that she would a mathmatically impossible number of books each
year, and then posts vague, useless reviews that convey virtually no
information whatsoever, with a soupcon of positivity.
Post by David Chapman
By a bizarre coincidence, the first review I found on Amazon's About Harriet
Klausner page is for a book called The Trudeau Vector. This will probably
instil great mirth in those who *do* know what John is talking about.
--
Richard M. Boye' * ***@webspan.net
Typing into the Void: ***@gmail.com
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/­books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound
Jason Denzel
2005-08-23 23:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Bah. This has nothing to do with "justifying to Jordan and Tor my
exalted status". They send out a ton of these books (they're numbered
and it was counted out of 200+). Every book magazine and major reviewer
gets one, and I think the other WoT webmasters are as well. And trust
me -- I'm more than secure enough with myself that I have to give
myself an ego boost.

As for the rest -- damn right you shouldn't take my word on this. Go
buy the book and enjoy it. This is just my opinion, and no different
than Joe Schmoe's on Amazon. The reason I posted this is because the
website I run reports Wheel of Time news and commentary.

Wait for more reviews, or make your own. More opinions are great. But
keep in mind that I don't laugh at other's opinions, question them, or
put them down just because they differ than my own. I have a hunch that
most WoT fans who disliked the last few books (including NS) will like
this book more because there's a lot more incident and things begin to
be wrapped up. That's all I'm saying. The rest is all hints and
teasing for those who like to analyze it.

JD
Rast
2005-08-24 00:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
Bah. This has nothing to do with "justifying to Jordan and Tor my
exalted status". They send out a ton of these books (they're numbered
and it was counted out of 200+). Every book magazine and major reviewer
gets one, and I think the other WoT webmasters are as well. And trust
me -- I'm more than secure enough with myself that I have to give
myself an ego boost.
I don't think you are a whore, but I suspect you are deceiving yourself.
If your CoT review had been:

"Boy, and I thought ACoS and TPoD were worthless wastes of paper -- this
was pathetic. The plot of CoT could have been told in a few chapters at
the beginning of a different book where things actually happened. Or
better yet, the events in CoT could have been thrown away, and RJ could
have instead written that book where things actually happened."

...I doubt you would have gotten a KoD ARC.

(quoted text from Mark Hanson's review. http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-
jordan/msg/0c27a090805feb36 )
--
"Ruleless 'law' will be a political weapon and control of the
judiciary will therefore be a political prize. 'Democracy' will
consist of the chaotic struggle to influence decision makers who are
not responsive to elections." -- Robert Bork
Mike Kozlowski
2005-08-24 01:20:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rast
"Boy, and I thought ACoS and TPoD were worthless wastes of paper -- this
was pathetic. The plot of CoT could have been told in a few chapters at
the beginning of a different book where things actually happened. Or
better yet, the events in CoT could have been thrown away, and RJ could
have instead written that book where things actually happened."
...I doubt you would have gotten a KoD ARC.
I don't.
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/
Ilya the Recusant
2005-08-24 02:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Kozlowski
Post by Rast
"Boy, and I thought ACoS and TPoD were worthless wastes of paper
--
Post by Mike Kozlowski
Post by Rast
this was pathetic. The plot of CoT could have been told in a few
chapters at the beginning of a different book where things actually
happened. Or better yet, the events in CoT could have been thrown
away, and RJ could have instead written that book where things
actually happened."
...I doubt you would have gotten a KoD ARC.
I don't.
I am in agreement.

Though a company might send a nasty suck-it-gram if you trash their
product, be it a book or game, etc., if you're on their mailing list,
and you should point out in a future review that X company discontinued
their mailing of ARC's following a negative review, that would reflect
very badly on the company.

That being said and done, I applaud Jason for being a *ahem* rabid
Wheel
of Time fan. It's hard to keep up that kind of spirit for so long, after
so many novels of such dubious quality.

However, I'm still wondering what exactly in CoT prompted this
sentence:

If you are a casual fan of The Wheel of Time, you'll enjoy this book
because the story picks up the pace again.


Ilya
Leigh Butler
2005-08-25 01:23:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
Bah. This has nothing to do with "justifying to Jordan and Tor my
exalted status". They send out a ton of these books (they're numbered
and it was counted out of 200+). Every book magazine and major reviewer
gets one, and I think the other WoT webmasters are as well. And trust
me -- I'm more than secure enough with myself that I have to give
myself an ego boost.
As for the rest -- damn right you shouldn't take my word on this. Go
buy the book and enjoy it. This is just my opinion, and no different
than Joe Schmoe's on Amazon. The reason I posted this is because the
website I run reports Wheel of Time news and commentary.
I haven't read your review, and won't until after I read KoD. Not
because I necessarily believe you are being insincere in your opinion,
but because I generally make it a rule never to read reviews of
anything I know I'm going to see/read regardless of what the reviews
say, good or bad.

However, as a commentary on JSH's and others' response:

I don't know you very well, Jason - our interaction has been sporadic,
to say the least - so I am not going to presume to judge what your
motivations are.

You have to admit, though, that your overwhelmingly positive reviews of
the recent books, when viewed against the backdrop of the also recent
increase in corporate support/recognition/favors from the Tor marketing
machine your website has received, conspire to show you in an
unflatteringly... sycophantic light.

Which may be unfair to you, and likely is. After all, I imagine you
wouldn't have bothered to set up a huge website dedicated to the Wheel
of Time (that at the time you may not have known would be become
self-supporting), unless you loved the books, and just because so many
of the rest of us have become jaded by the last few doesn't mean you
have to agree. Plenty of people who aren't getting advance copies and
what have you still like them.

All true. But surely you understand why it's natural for some people to
assume the worst.

That said, I don't see the point in giving you grief over it, because
it's an unprovable accusation either way, and personally I feel it's
rather unfair to put you or anyone in such a fundamentally indefensible
position, regardless of what my opinion on which view is the truth.

So, instead of demanding you prove a negative, I will just thank you
for posting your review, and for making it spoiler-free for those of us
who aren't quite as fanatical on the matter as I am. I hope you'll
stick around for the post-release dissection.
--
Leigh Butler
Jason Denzel
2005-08-25 17:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Leigh,

I couldn't agree more. I know how it looks to some folks and they're
free to thank whatever they want. But I know how it really is, and if
anybody ever cared enough to find out, I'd be happy to talk about how
and why I am really getting these ARCS and where my loyalties lay.

And I'll definitely be around for the post-release talk. Should be
interesting to say the least.

J
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-25 22:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
I couldn't agree more. I know how it looks to some folks and they're
free to thank whatever they want. But I know how it really is, and if
anybody ever cared enough to find out, I'd be happy to talk about how
and why I am really getting these ARCS and where my loyalties lay.
If you have some influence over at Tor, why don't you ask them to include
Leigh on the ARC list? The WotFAQ, after all, is a major piece of fan
work, even if in a completely different way to yours.

Jasper
Lorfarius
2005-08-26 15:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Jason Denzel
I couldn't agree more. I know how it looks to some folks and they're
free to thank whatever they want. But I know how it really is, and if
anybody ever cared enough to find out, I'd be happy to talk about how
and why I am really getting these ARCS and where my loyalties lay.
If you have some influence over at Tor, why don't you ask them to include
Leigh on the ARC list? The WotFAQ, after all, is a major piece of fan
work, even if in a completely different way to yours.
Jasper
But will it be appreciated? Ive been posting and lurking on this group for
almost 7 years and I have barely even more than glimpsed at the FAQ.
Jason Denzel
2005-08-26 16:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Great idea. That, I can do. No promises though.
Leigh Butler
2005-08-26 17:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
If you have some influence over at Tor, why don't you ask them to include
Leigh on the ARC list? The WotFAQ, after all, is a major piece of fan
work, even if in a completely different way to yours.
(Jasper, you scalawag.)
Post by Jasper Janssen
Great idea. That, I can do. No promises though.
*blink* I'll be fascinated to see if they actually agree, but thank
you, Jason.
--
Leigh Butler
Ranger Fan
2005-08-26 17:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Jason Denzel
I couldn't agree more. I know how it looks to some folks and they're
free to thank whatever they want. But I know how it really is, and if
anybody ever cared enough to find out, I'd be happy to talk about how
and why I am really getting these ARCS and where my loyalties lay.
If you have some influence over at Tor, why don't you ask them to include
Leigh on the ARC list? The WotFAQ, after all, is a major piece of fan
work, even if in a completely different way to yours.
Jasper
Hey, why not include me to? I've not contributed anything to fan
scene but I hate waiting :)



=======================================================
<Insert Pithy Saying Here - it's apparently required on Usenet>
Rajiv Mote
2005-08-24 02:04:03 UTC
Permalink
***@cub.kcnet.org wrote:
<snip>
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Even if you discount the whole schill factor involved, its not
really a review as there is really no reference to actual content.
Not that I would believe this particular reviewer based on past reports
either. But therein lies the flaws of posting a spoiler free review as
well. Other than to tell us he has the book that no one else does
and he likes it. Wow. I guess he has to justify to Jordan and Tor his
exalted status somehow, though. And if anything Jason Denzel telling
me the book is wonderful takes some of the anticpatory edge off a bit.
Now I can relax a little bit until a real review comes our way.
Not that the infomercial approach of the review means KOD will
be bad of course. But getting excited based on a denzel review
is like buying a book because Harriet Klausner gave it five stars
at amazon.com. Or worse, listing Kevin Trudeau as my prefered
health care specialist on my insurance policy.
<snip>

I'd be surprised to learn that readers of this newsgroup or the fan
sites are basing their decisions to purchase KoD on early reviews.
Labeling the poster as a "shill" and saying he's trying to justify his
"exalted status" just smacks of sour grapes. His post won't affect
sales. And Old Man Rigney's not going to award Jason a medal over
this. I'll bet you that wasn't the point.

I took the post as a spoiler-free way for an excited fan to share the
sorts of details that other like-minded fans get into: The fact that
there are two new chapter icons. The opening epigram. The number of
story pages. The speculation-fodder hints. And, of course: "...Then
more story lines got wrapped up, at least to the extent where I don't
need to hear about a certain character again without feeling cheated.
All of the major plot lines advance. Some are completed. ... Lots of
smaller plot lines are resolved or brought near conclusion." Those are
fairly objective statements, and and after CoT (which I didn't hate,
but which certainly resolved nothing), they're comforting. Will it be
enough? We'll see. But I enjoyed the post for what it was -- a fan's
contagious enthusiasm.
j***@cub.kcnet.org
2005-08-24 02:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sagel
<snip>
Post by j***@cub.kcnet.org
Even if you discount the whole schill factor involved, its not
really a review as there is really no reference to actual content.
Not that I would believe this particular reviewer based on past reports
either. But therein lies the flaws of posting a spoiler free review as
well. Other than to tell us he has the book that no one else does
and he likes it. Wow. I guess he has to justify to Jordan and Tor his
exalted status somehow, though. And if anything Jason Denzel telling
me the book is wonderful takes some of the anticpatory edge off a bit.
Now I can relax a little bit until a real review comes our way.
Not that the infomercial approach of the review means KOD will
be bad of course. But getting excited based on a denzel review
is like buying a book because Harriet Klausner gave it five stars
at amazon.com. Or worse, listing Kevin Trudeau as my prefered
health care specialist on my insurance policy.
<snip>
I'd be surprised to learn that readers of this newsgroup or the fan
sites are basing their decisions to purchase KoD on early reviews.
Labeling the poster as a "shill" and saying he's trying to justify his
"exalted status" just smacks of sour grapes. His post won't affect
sales. And Old Man Rigney's not going to award Jason a medal over
this. I'll bet you that wasn't the point.
My remarks concerning Denzel could hardly refer directly to
_this_ review as I have yet to read the book. Rather my remarks
stem from the history of said Denzel and the fact that his site has
had an increasingly closer relationship with Tor and Jordan.

Sour grapes? Not really. Just forming an opinion based
on what I have read. The same thing you defend Denzel for doing.
Oh the horror.

---
JSH
Ilya the Recusant
2005-08-24 03:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rajiv Mote
But I enjoyed the post for what it was -- a fan's
contagious enthusiasm.
Agreed.

This is the intent I attributed to Jason's review.


Ilya
Mark Erikson
2005-08-24 17:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
YEah, I still get reamed for the CoT review. I stand by that review,
but I'm also much more mellow when it comes to these books. They are
what they are, and I look at them as one big story arc.
CoT was a bad book. If you put all the books together and called them
one book, CoT was the bit that really should have been edited down to
three chapters.
Post by Jason Denzel
But I as I said, really, this book is good. I don't think it's as good
as tSR, or FoH (the best books in the series in my opinion) but it's
certainly filled with a lot of incident.
Just to make myself clearer on this point:

tSR was an amazing book. It's fucking huge, and every page of it is
gold. There's no real filler. It's all good stuff. And it's really
packed with stuff. It's a book that bursts the whole world open, shows
you the history, the politics, and the places.

What I'm looking for now is the book that does the opposite. A big,
thousand page volume that begans tying it all up neatly. That provides
answers in the same way that tSR showed us the enigmas, and so on.

What I believe we'll get is a shitty book with way too many answers
poorly executed and all crammed in together. Something that reads like
a poorly written synopsis of three other books.

That said, I was pleasantly surprised by the prologue, which did have a
flavour of gathering momentum. I'm just about to download the first
chapter, illegally. I'm looking forward to seeing what it has to
offer.

-Mark Erikson
NightBaron
2005-08-24 19:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Erikson
tSR was an amazing book. It's fucking huge, and every page of it is
gold. There's no real filler. It's all good stuff. And it's really
packed with stuff. It's a book that bursts the whole world open, shows
you the history, the politics, and the places.
While I love tSR, I disagree that there's no filler. There is a lot of
filler in the first 200 pages or so, where all the characters hang
around in Tear not really knowing what to do. There's some good
interaction in there, but everytime I reread that book, I have trouble
with those chapters.
Mark Erikson
2005-08-25 02:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by NightBaron
Post by Mark Erikson
tSR was an amazing book. It's fucking huge, and every page of it is
gold. There's no real filler. It's all good stuff. And it's really
packed with stuff. It's a book that bursts the whole world open, shows
you the history, the politics, and the places.
While I love tSR, I disagree that there's no filler. There is a lot of
filler in the first 200 pages or so, where all the characters hang
around in Tear not really knowing what to do. There's some good
interaction in there, but everytime I reread that book, I have trouble
with those chapters.
I found that those chapters served the purpose of showing the reader
that this wasn't about farmboys running around the country
inconspicuously anymore. I was fascinated by those chapters because
essentially said "Rand isn't just trying to survive anymore, he's
playing with nations now".

There's also the bubbles in the pattern, the doorway, and our first
real look at Thom playing daes daemar. But, to each his own, I guess.

That's part of the reason I say tSR was so great. It's diverse. It
packs a lot of information into a single book. It sets up the grand
political scheme fairly well, then spends the rest of the story in the
Waste.

-Mark Erikson
Dave Smith
2005-08-23 18:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Erikson
Uh, those aren't really the iconic moments I think of. Mat hanging
from the Tree of Life is a pretty cool imagine, if you summon it up in
your head after the fact, but in the book it isn't written in quite the
"iconic" way you seem to imply. Maybe only because it follows the
Rhuidean Pillars, which is probably _the_ iconic moment from WOT, which
you didn't mention at all.
I would hardly put the Rhuidean Pillars as the iconic moment of the
series. It's a good moment, but it doesn't stand out as _the_ moment of
the series. If I had to pick one scene that stands out above all the
others, I would chose the end of LoC, when Taim forces the Aes Sedai to
kneel before Rand.
Post by Mark Erikson
Dumai's Wells the battle, no. Taim saying "kneel or be kneeled", yes,
most certainly.
Agreed that this moment is more memorable, but Dumai's Wells is also a
pretty iconic moment, I would say more than the Rhuidean Pillars (though
that's fairly subjective). When they lowered the dome and started
mowing down people with the Power, that was fairly damn cool. It's the
first time the Power was used on that scale in battle (at least in the
series), and oddly enough, no Forsaken were involved.
--
Dave Smith
Jason Denzel
2005-08-23 19:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Iconic moments are subjective to the person reading them. To me, an
iconic moment is when Rand channels for the first time in EYE OF THE
WORLD. Or Mat getting Healed of the dagger in Book 3. (Not to mention
him whooping Galad and Gawyn). Another to me would be Perrin learning
that other villages had come to save the day when the trollocs were
about to smash the Two Rivers. Those are iconic character moments.
Images that lingered with me well beyond the time that I remembered the
details of the moment.

In CoT, I don't have any memories of iconic moments except maybe for
the verrrry end with Egwene. In KoD, there are easily several moments
that are great imagery and by themselves can define the charcter. If I
took a picture of that moment, it would have weight and substance to
it.

And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably differ than the
ones in mine. So while you might ultimately disagree about the Egwene
"special tea" thing being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there
are likely others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
Mike Timbers
2005-08-23 19:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
Iconic moments are subjective to the person reading them. To me, an
iconic moment is when Rand channels for the first time in EYE OF THE
WORLD. Or Mat getting Healed of the dagger in Book 3. (Not to mention
him whooping Galad and Gawyn). Another to me would be Perrin learning
that other villages had come to save the day when the trollocs were
about to smash the Two Rivers. Those are iconic character moments.
Images that lingered with me well beyond the time that I remembered the
details of the moment.
In CoT, I don't have any memories of iconic moments except maybe for
the verrrry end with Egwene. In KoD, there are easily several moments
that are great imagery and by themselves can define the charcter. If I
took a picture of that moment, it would have weight and substance to
it.
And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably differ than the
ones in mine. So while you might ultimately disagree about the Egwene
"special tea" thing being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there
are likely others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
Mine isn't even in the books but in Far Snows Dance ;)
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-24 17:24:18 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:41:25 +0000 (UTC), "Mike Timbers"
Post by Mike Timbers
Post by Jason Denzel
And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably differ than the
ones in mine. So while you might ultimately disagree about the Egwene
"special tea" thing being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there
are likely others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
Mine isn't even in the books but in Far Snows Dance ;)
It's amazing how good that little bit of fanfic is, isn't it?

Even if the author has other things on his mind than WoT nowadays.


Jasper
Aaron Davies
2005-08-25 16:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:41:25 +0000 (UTC), "Mike Timbers"
Post by Mike Timbers
Post by Jason Denzel
And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably differ than the
ones in mine. So while you might ultimately disagree about the Egwene
"special tea" thing being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there
are likely others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
Mine isn't even in the books but in Far Snows Dance ;)
It's amazing how good that little bit of fanfic is, isn't it?
Even if the author has other things on his mind than WoT nowadays.
?
--
Aaron Davies
Opinions expressed are solely those of a random number generator.
Magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri.
Ho! Ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Thrust!
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-25 22:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:41:25 +0000 (UTC), "Mike Timbers"
Post by Mike Timbers
Post by Jason Denzel
And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably differ than the
ones in mine. So while you might ultimately disagree about the Egwene
"special tea" thing being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there
are likely others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
Mine isn't even in the books but in Far Snows Dance ;)
It's amazing how good that little bit of fanfic is, isn't it?
Even if the author has other things on his mind than WoT nowadays.
?
Last posting google shows in this newsgroup for Karl-Johan was in the
beginning of March, and I don't believe that in the several times I've met
him over the past few years he's ever mentioned WoT to me.

Google "Far Snows Dance" for more information.


Jasper
Mike Timbers
2005-08-27 16:34:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:41:25 +0000 (UTC), "Mike Timbers"
Post by Mike Timbers
Post by Jason Denzel
And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably differ than the
ones in mine. So while you might ultimately disagree about the Egwene
"special tea" thing being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there
are likely others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
Mine isn't even in the books but in Far Snows Dance ;)
It's amazing how good that little bit of fanfic is, isn't it?
Even if the author has other things on his mind than WoT nowadays.
?
Last posting google shows in this newsgroup for Karl-Johan was in the
beginning of March, and I don't believe that in the several times I've met
him over the past few years he's ever mentioned WoT to me.
Google "Far Snows Dance" for more information.
Yet, google can't find anything other than references to it. I wonder how
many people have read that particular piece of fanfic?
Pat O'Connell
2005-08-27 18:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Timbers
On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:06:39 GMT,
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:41:25 +0000 (UTC), "Mike Timbers"
Post by Mike Timbers
Post by Jason Denzel
And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably
differ than the ones in mine. So while you might
ultimately disagree about the Egwene "special tea" thing
being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there are likely
others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
Mine isn't even in the books but in Far Snows Dance ;)
It's amazing how good that little bit of fanfic is, isn't it?
Even if the author has other things on his mind than WoT
nowadays.
?
Last posting google shows in this newsgroup for Karl-Johan was in
the beginning of March, and I don't believe that in the several
times I've met him over the past few years he's ever mentioned WoT
to me.
Google "Far Snows Dance" for more information.
Yet, google can't find anything other than references to it. I wonder
how many people have read that particular piece of fanfic?
I read it, but TOR made K-J remove it from the Web. Most of the long
time regulars here have read it. The fanfic just interpolated some well
written R-rated prose into the existing chapter.
--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...
Dan Weiner
2005-08-27 19:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Timbers
Yet, google can't find anything other than references to it. I wonder how
many people have read that particular piece of fanfic?
Search Google groups instead:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=far+snows+dance

Frankly, I wouldn't bother. I don't know why everyone thinks this is so
great. Danielle Steele writes this crap, too...
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Mike Timbers
2005-08-27 20:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Mike Timbers
Yet, google can't find anything other than references to it. I wonder how
many people have read that particular piece of fanfic?
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=far+snows+dance
Frankly, I wouldn't bother. I don't know why everyone thinks this is so
great. Danielle Steele writes this crap, too...
Oh, I've had it since it was originally posted. It's not that it's so great
but most of the adult WOT readers I've spoken to have all complained that
that particular "iconic moment" happened off-camera and are pleased to read
FSD when I send it to them. Allegedly.
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-28 00:42:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:04:49 GMT, Dan Weiner
Post by Dan Weiner
Frankly, I wouldn't bother. I don't know why everyone thinks this is so
great. Danielle Steele writes this crap, too...
You had to be there, I guess.

Jasper
Paul Lints
2005-08-27 21:48:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Timbers
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:41:25 +0000 (UTC), "Mike Timbers"
Post by Mike Timbers
Post by Jason Denzel
And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably differ than the
ones in mine. So while you might ultimately disagree about the Egwene
"special tea" thing being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there
are likely others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
Mine isn't even in the books but in Far Snows Dance ;)
It's amazing how good that little bit of fanfic is, isn't it?
Even if the author has other things on his mind than WoT nowadays.
?
Last posting google shows in this newsgroup for Karl-Johan was in the
beginning of March, and I don't believe that in the several times I've met
him over the past few years he's ever mentioned WoT to me.
Google "Far Snows Dance" for more information.
Yet, google can't find anything other than references to it. I wonder how
many people have read that particular piece of fanfic?
Google Groups will get you the original posting of the story (not to
mention Loy additions to it)...
--
Paul W. Lints Jr. UIN: 25030144
Valid email: pwlints@*DELETEME*csupomona.edu
Tim Bruening
2010-03-23 20:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Timbers
Post by Jason Denzel
Iconic moments are subjective to the person reading them. To me, an
iconic moment is when Rand channels for the first time in EYE OF THE
WORLD. Or Mat getting Healed of the dagger in Book 3. (Not to mention
him whooping Galad and Gawyn). Another to me would be Perrin learning
that other villages had come to save the day when the trollocs were
about to smash the Two Rivers. Those are iconic character moments.
Images that lingered with me well beyond the time that I remembered the
details of the moment.
In CoT, I don't have any memories of iconic moments except maybe for
the verrrry end with Egwene. In KoD, there are easily several moments
that are great imagery and by themselves can define the charcter. If I
took a picture of that moment, it would have weight and substance to
it.
And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably differ than the
ones in mine. So while you might ultimately disagree about the Egwene
"special tea" thing being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there
are likely others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
Mine isn't even in the books but in Far Snows Dance ;)
My moments: Nynaeve battling the Seanchan in tGH.

Nynaeve dueling Moggy to a stalemate in tSR.

Mat discovering the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

Egwene battling the Seanchan in tGS.
Dave Smith
2005-08-23 20:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
Iconic moments are subjective to the person reading them. To me, an
iconic moment is when Rand channels for the first time in EYE OF THE
WORLD. Or Mat getting Healed of the dagger in Book 3. (Not to mention
him whooping Galad and Gawyn). Another to me would be Perrin learning
that other villages had come to save the day when the trollocs were
about to smash the Two Rivers. Those are iconic character moments.
Images that lingered with me well beyond the time that I remembered the
details of the moment.
Agreed (that they are subjective, not necessarily with each of your
examples).
Post by Jason Denzel
In CoT, I don't have any memories of iconic moments except maybe for
the verrrry end with Egwene. In KoD, there are easily several moments
that are great imagery and by themselves can define the charcter. If I
took a picture of that moment, it would have weight and substance to
it.
For me, CoT was enjoyable as a piece of the overall story in its first
read. Upon rereading, the only thing that makes it worth it to me is
the Mat/Tuon moments. I wouldn't classify these as iconic, though I
really liked the scene when Mat returns to the circus after killing the
runaway Seanchan. It's not what I would call iconic, but it was
memorable for me.
Post by Jason Denzel
And yes, the iconic moments in your mind will probably differ than the
ones in mine. So while you might ultimately disagree about the Egwene
"special tea" thing being "iconic" I mentioned in the review, there
are likely others that you'll like and I never mentioned.
We'll find out in October.
--
Dave Smith
Tim Bruening
2010-03-23 20:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by Mark Erikson
Uh, those aren't really the iconic moments I think of. Mat hanging
from the Tree of Life is a pretty cool imagine, if you summon it up in
your head after the fact, but in the book it isn't written in quite the
"iconic" way you seem to imply. Maybe only because it follows the
Rhuidean Pillars, which is probably _the_ iconic moment from WOT, which
you didn't mention at all.
I would hardly put the Rhuidean Pillars as the iconic moment of the
series. It's a good moment, but it doesn't stand out as _the_ moment of
the series. If I had to pick one scene that stands out above all the
others, I would chose the end of LoC, when Taim forces the Aes Sedai to
kneel before Rand.
Post by Mark Erikson
Dumai's Wells the battle, no. Taim saying "kneel or be kneeled", yes,
most certainly.
Agreed that this moment is more memorable, but Dumai's Wells is also a
pretty iconic moment, I would say more than the Rhuidean Pillars (though
that's fairly subjective). When they lowered the dome and started
mowing down people with the Power, that was fairly damn cool. It's the
first time the Power was used on that scale in battle (at least in the
series), and oddly enough, no Forsaken were involved.
Was Dashiva (A.K.A. Osan'gar) with the Asha'man that day? If so, a Forsaken
WAS involved!
Rajiv Mote
2005-08-24 19:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Mark Erikson wrote:
<snip>
Post by Mark Erikson
Post by Jason Denzel
But despite all the Deathgates, zomaran, and bolt cranks,
This, though, does get me a little excited. Unless these are some kind
of weird joke I'm missing.
<snip>

Assuming "deathgates, zomaran and bolt cranks" are not a weird joke...
this interests me too.

Deathgates: First thing I thought of was "wormhole weapons" from
Farscape... Gateways being used as weapons? How? Using them to slice
people seems wasteful... maybe they're opened into space, the sun, or
into the deep ocean? Or for quick troop insertion (though that use
doesn't seem to merit a special name)?

Zomaran: This sounds like Shadowspawn (maybe I'm thinking of
"Jumara")... Maybe it's the proper name for the ghosts?

Bolt Cranks: Randland is starting to get mechanized, but this could
refer to anything. Anyone know how bolt cranks could be used in the
eventual cannons Mat will be using?
Chris Liguori
2005-08-25 01:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sagel
<snip>
Post by Mark Erikson
Post by Jason Denzel
But despite all the Deathgates, zomaran, and bolt cranks,
This, though, does get me a little excited. Unless these are some kind
of weird joke I'm missing.
<snip>
Post by Sagel
Bolt Cranks: Randland is starting to get mechanized, but this could
refer to anything. Anyone know how bolt cranks could be used in the
eventual cannons Mat will be using?
I thought of this like the Roman heavy crossbows that were used like
field artillery. They shot large bolts huge distances and mowed down
people with three or four person crews firing constantly.

Chris
Chris Liguori
2005-08-25 01:18:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sagel
<snip>
Post by Mark Erikson
Post by Jason Denzel
But despite all the Deathgates, zomaran, and bolt cranks,
This, though, does get me a little excited. Unless these are some kind
of weird joke I'm missing.
<snip>
Post by Sagel
Bolt Cranks: Randland is starting to get mechanized, but this could
refer to anything. Anyone know how bolt cranks could be used in the
eventual cannons Mat will be using?
I thought of this like the Roman heavy crossbows that were used like
field artillery. They shot large bolts huge distances and mowed down
people with three or four person crews firing constantly.

Chris
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-25 11:57:49 UTC
Permalink
On 24 Aug 2005 18:18:56 -0700, "Chris Liguori"
Post by Chris Liguori
I thought of this like the Roman heavy crossbows that were used like
field artillery. They shot large bolts huge distances and mowed down
people with three or four person crews firing constantly.
The things Detritus fires one-handed, basically, and are large crew-served
weapons to anyone else. I remain agnostic on whether these would be better
than catapults, ballistae, and trebuchets in rate of fire and/or
effectiveness, though.

Nobody's going to really seriously affect open-field battles with
gunpowder weapons for a while, unless Jordan again goes in for his
They're-So-Smart-That-A-Century-Of-Development-Goes-In-A-Year theory like
he did with the steam engine. Which is not inconceivable.


Jasper
Sydo Zandstra
2005-08-26 15:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On 24 Aug 2005 18:18:56 -0700, "Chris Liguori"
Post by Chris Liguori
I thought of this like the Roman heavy crossbows that were used like
field artillery. They shot large bolts huge distances and mowed down
people with three or four person crews firing constantly.
The things Detritus fires one-handed, basically, and are large crew-served
weapons to anyone else. I remain agnostic on whether these would be better
than catapults, ballistae, and trebuchets in rate of fire and/or
effectiveness, though.
Considering that Detritus fires that thing on short range, I'd say his
weapon is the most effective, at least with one shot. Of course one shot is
enough there...
Post by Jasper Janssen
Nobody's going to really seriously affect open-field battles with
gunpowder weapons for a while, unless Jordan again goes in for his
They're-So-Smart-That-A-Century-Of-Development-Goes-In-A-Year theory like
he did with the steam engine. Which is not inconceivable.
That's where being Ta'veren comes in handy.

But maybe going all the way towards developing cannons is not necessary at
all. Even regular Illuminator fireworks could be used in battle. Not to do
physical damage to the enemy troops, but to startle/ confuse them. Mat would
see the tactical benefits there.

And remember how Mat used the firecrackers to blow a hole in the walls of
the Stone of Tear.
--
Sydo Zandstra
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-26 16:21:50 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:42:48 +0200, "Sydo Zandstra"
Post by Sydo Zandstra
Post by Jasper Janssen
Nobody's going to really seriously affect open-field battles with
gunpowder weapons for a while, unless Jordan again goes in for his
They're-So-Smart-That-A-Century-Of-Development-Goes-In-A-Year theory like
he did with the steam engine. Which is not inconceivable.
That's where being Ta'veren comes in handy.
But maybe going all the way towards developing cannons is not necessary at
all. Even regular Illuminator fireworks could be used in battle. Not to do
physical damage to the enemy troops, but to startle/ confuse them. Mat would
see the tactical benefits there.
And remember how Mat used the firecrackers to blow a hole in the walls of
the Stone of Tear.
Yuh-huh. If they invent rockets that can be decently aimed at opposing
armies (as opposed to simply straight up in the air -- and I think most of
the fireworks we saw were mortars, rather than rockets), I would be
surprised, though. It's hard to get a good venturi without lots of trial
and error and/or some idea of what's going on.

It's hard to see where Jordan is going with the explosives. Historically
justifiable, OTOH, it almost certainly is not. The thing is, he's been
dropping anvil-sized hints about bronze cannons for books upon books now.

So we're not going to get wooden cannons (see Mythbusters), Japanese
man-portable cannons made from bamboo tubes, Gustav Adolf's 'Leather
Cannons', anything else in the way of experimentation to make cheaper or
better cannons, or even any mortars at all (Even though mortars are
already being used by the fireworks people). Historically, we had bronze
cannons that were very small, and wrought iron for the larger versions.
The small bronze cannons are not going to be any use on the battlefield --
other than through sheer intimidation, and Trollocs led by Fades don't
intimidate very well -- unless they are fielded in vast numbers, including
the trained crews. They couldn't even pull it off *with* a miracle, IMHO.

On the plus side, there's not going to be much if any fortification on
Shayol Ghul, so they won't need the big guns to bring down walls or
anything. As for as munitions are concerned, anything more than canister
or round shot would be ridiculous -- we're not going to get rifled
breechloaders firing explosive shells at the opposing trenches. I hope.
Canister is too short-range to be used as more than last-resort type of
thing. So the main weapon will have to be roundshot -- somebody will have
to train crews to aim the cannon and load it. That's harder than it
sounds.

In effect, the Allies are setting themselves up for a 'Superiority'[1]
situation.


Jasper

[1] _Superiority_, A.C. Clarke, first published in "Expedition To Earth",
'54. "We lost because we had superior technology", and we didn't have the
resources to field both our new superweapon and vast numbers of cheap &
cheerful older technology.
Sydo Zandstra
2005-08-26 18:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:42:48 +0200, "Sydo Zandstra"
Post by Sydo Zandstra
Post by Jasper Janssen
Nobody's going to really seriously affect open-field battles with
gunpowder weapons for a while, unless Jordan again goes in for his
They're-So-Smart-That-A-Century-Of-Development-Goes-In-A-Year theory like
he did with the steam engine. Which is not inconceivable.
That's where being Ta'veren comes in handy.
But maybe going all the way towards developing cannons is not necessary at
all. Even regular Illuminator fireworks could be used in battle. Not to do
physical damage to the enemy troops, but to startle/ confuse them. Mat would
see the tactical benefits there.
And remember how Mat used the firecrackers to blow a hole in the walls of
the Stone of Tear.
Yuh-huh. If they invent rockets that can be decently aimed at opposing
armies (as opposed to simply straight up in the air -- and I think most of
the fireworks we saw were mortars, rather than rockets), I would be
surprised, though. It's hard to get a good venturi without lots of trial
and error and/or some idea of what's going on.
Catapults could be used to hurl explosives. In a way, it's been done before,
at the defense of Emond's Field, where Aes Sedai (Verin and Alanna) played a
role as well. This could be a way to deal some damage without channelers
having to reveal their position.
Post by Jasper Janssen
It's hard to see where Jordan is going with the explosives. Historically
justifiable, OTOH, it almost certainly is not. The thing is, he's been
dropping anvil-sized hints about bronze cannons for books upon books now.
Yes. He also stated that he won't play out all current open plot threads,
and will leave some undecided. According to him, that is on purpose, because
Life is that way too. Those who have dwelled here for 5 years or more know
better. This just may be one of the dropped plot threads. Of course, if this
is true, we also may not hear anything about explosives again at all.
Post by Jasper Janssen
So we're not going to get wooden cannons (see Mythbusters), Japanese
man-portable cannons made from bamboo tubes, Gustav Adolf's 'Leather
Cannons', anything else in the way of experimentation to make cheaper or
better cannons, or even any mortars at all (Even though mortars are
already being used by the fireworks people). Historically, we had bronze
cannons that were very small, and wrought iron for the larger versions.
The small bronze cannons are not going to be any use on the battlefield --
other than through sheer intimidation, and Trollocs led by Fades don't
intimidate very well -- unless they are fielded in vast numbers, including
the trained crews. They couldn't even pull it off *with* a miracle, IMHO.
True. But how about the Seanchan armies?
Post by Jasper Janssen
On the plus side, there's not going to be much if any fortification on
Shayol Ghul, so they won't need the big guns to bring down walls or
anything. As for as munitions are concerned, anything more than canister
or round shot would be ridiculous -- we're not going to get rifled
breechloaders firing explosive shells at the opposing trenches. I hope.
Canister is too short-range to be used as more than last-resort type of
thing. So the main weapon will have to be roundshot -- somebody will have
to train crews to aim the cannon and load it. That's harder than it
sounds.
You're getting too technical, Jasper. See my catapult argument.
Post by Jasper Janssen
In effect, the Allies are setting themselves up for a 'Superiority'[1]
situation.
[1] _Superiority_, A.C. Clarke, first published in "Expedition To Earth",
'54. "We lost because we had superior technology", and we didn't have the
resources to field both our new superweapon and vast numbers of cheap &
cheerful older technology.
That reminds me of some old C&C: Red Alert 2 campaigns playing as Soviet and
aiming to get the Apocalypse Tank asap.

I'm not defending my beliefs on what will happen here, btw. Just doing some
exercises on imagining what RJ might throw at us while using what he already
wrote. And Jasper is a good sparring partner for that.

(The scary thing is, that I remember names and things about the books, while
I haven't read one ever since CoT came out...)
--
Sydo Zandstra
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-27 13:16:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:37:29 +0200, "Sydo Zandstra"
Post by Sydo Zandstra
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:42:48 +0200, "Sydo Zandstra"
Yuh-huh. If they invent rockets that can be decently aimed at opposing
armies (as opposed to simply straight up in the air -- and I think most of
the fireworks we saw were mortars, rather than rockets), I would be
surprised, though. It's hard to get a good venturi without lots of trial
and error and/or some idea of what's going on.
Catapults could be used to hurl explosives. In a way, it's been done before,
at the defense of Emond's Field, where Aes Sedai (Verin and Alanna) played a
role as well. This could be a way to deal some damage without channelers
having to reveal their position.
Indeed. Catapults hurling explosives (maybe they'll even figure out what
"shrapnel" means) is easily within the grasp of Randland current
technology, and could be fielded in sufficient numbers to make a real
difference. So it probably won't happen.
Post by Sydo Zandstra
Post by Jasper Janssen
It's hard to see where Jordan is going with the explosives. Historically
justifiable, OTOH, it almost certainly is not. The thing is, he's been
dropping anvil-sized hints about bronze cannons for books upon books now.
Yes. He also stated that he won't play out all current open plot threads,
and will leave some undecided. According to him, that is on purpose, because
Life is that way too. Those who have dwelled here for 5 years or more know
better. This just may be one of the dropped plot threads. Of course, if this
is true, we also may not hear anything about explosives again at all.
I think this thread is too important to Mat's storyline to simply fizzle.
At the very least, they have to try it and fail to make a difference.
Thing is, bellcasters, however successful they may be, are not going to be
able to make huge numbers of cannons, and they don't have the technology
they make really accurate bores -- so the efficiency of those cannons will
be fairly atrocious. Packing the same amount of powder into a
catapult-hurled grenade would probably do more damage.

This sort of depends on Tarmon Gai'don being pretty close, though. If they
have a year or two, things might be different.
Post by Sydo Zandstra
Post by Jasper Janssen
So we're not going to get wooden cannons (see Mythbusters), Japanese
man-portable cannons made from bamboo tubes, Gustav Adolf's 'Leather
Cannons', anything else in the way of experimentation to make cheaper or
better cannons, or even any mortars at all (Even though mortars are
already being used by the fireworks people). Historically, we had bronze
cannons that were very small, and wrought iron for the larger versions.
The small bronze cannons are not going to be any use on the battlefield --
other than through sheer intimidation, and Trollocs led by Fades don't
intimidate very well -- unless they are fielded in vast numbers, including
the trained crews. They couldn't even pull it off *with* a miracle, IMHO.
True. But how about the Seanchan armies?
They've already got large numbers of disciplined troops, which is a plus.
If there's time, they might be able to retrain sufficient of them into
half-decent artillery crews. Still not convinced RJ could pull the actual
guns out of his ass believably, though.
Post by Sydo Zandstra
I'm not defending my beliefs on what will happen here, btw. Just doing some
exercises on imagining what RJ might throw at us while using what he already
wrote. And Jasper is a good sparring partner for that.
Oh, hell, no. RJ doesn't look to be going in any logical direction with
this, so it's pretty hard to extrapolate, and I'm certainly not taking any
bets.


Jasper
Karsten
2005-08-29 08:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:37:29 +0200, "Sydo Zandstra"
I think this thread is too important to Mat's storyline to simply fizzle.
At the very least, they have to try it and fail to make a difference.
Thing is, bellcasters, however successful they may be, are not going to be
able to make huge numbers of cannons, and they don't have the technology
they make really accurate bores -- so the efficiency of those cannons will
be fairly atrocious.
OK, but in RandLand they have the use of magic. Wasn't the White Tower was
made by the use of magic (enhancing the strength of the stones)?? By setting
up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons that were precise and
strong enough to allow for size...OK I know that they would have to
rediscover the art of "magic constuction (sp?)", but that would be solved
easily.

Karsten
Petter Strandmark
2005-08-29 19:55:49 UTC
Permalink
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
--
Petter
steveo
2005-08-30 01:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
Call them fireworks launching apparatus and have an Illuminator order them.

steveo
Duncan J Macdonald
2005-08-30 01:23:47 UTC
Permalink
In article <GfOQe.11517$***@fed1read02>, ***@cox.net
says...
Post by steveo
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
And what exactly were those things that Verin and Alanna made and
used in the defense of the Two Rivers.
Post by steveo
Call them fireworks launching apparatus and have an Illuminator order them.
No need. You can make all the weapons you want, as long as they
aren't used to harm man.

Or, as soon as the wool-headed Aes Sedai realize that the Three Oaths
really don't help matters, they will rescind that Oath.
--
Duncan J Macdonald
***@navy.mil
***@comcast.net
steveo
2005-08-30 03:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duncan J Macdonald
says...
Post by steveo
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
And what exactly were those things that Verin and Alanna made and
used in the defense of the Two Rivers.
Post by steveo
Call them fireworks launching apparatus and have an Illuminator order them.
No need. You can make all the weapons you want, as long as they
aren't used to harm man.
Or, as soon as the wool-headed Aes Sedai realize that the Three Oaths
really don't help matters, they will rescind that Oath.
Will that be before or after the tea serving ceremony that takes place in
the bathhouse where everyone is sniffing? If it is after, we may well have
to wait until the end of book 12...

steveo
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-31 22:35:52 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:23:47 -0400, Duncan J Macdonald
Post by Duncan J Macdonald
says...
And what exactly were those things that Verin and Alanna made and
used in the defense of the Two Rivers.
No need. You can make all the weapons you want, as long as they
aren't used to harm man.
As long as they *cannot* be used to harm any men, I would say. The
explodey-catapult balls verin did were a) against trollocs and
darkfriends, therefore exempt, and b) they were doing it at the scene, and
they could see who they were being used against. That last doesn't apply
to simply making cannons.


Jasper
Duncan J Macdonald
2005-09-01 02:16:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:23:47 -0400, Duncan J Macdonald
Post by Duncan J Macdonald
And what exactly were those things that Verin and Alanna made and
used in the defense of the Two Rivers.
No need. You can make all the weapons you want, as long as they
aren't used to harm man.
As long as they *cannot* be used to harm any men, I would say. The
explodey-catapult balls verin did were a) against trollocs and
darkfriends, therefore exempt, and b) they were doing it at the scene, and
they could see who they were being used against. That last doesn't apply
to simply making cannons.
It's a silly Oath anyway. Once the rocks were charged, loaded on the
catapults, and then fired, what would happen if a catapult broke in
the act and the rock landed on the villagers?
--
Duncan J Macdonald
***@navy.mil
***@comcast.net
Dan Weiner
2005-09-01 03:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duncan J Macdonald
It's a silly Oath anyway.
They all are. :-\
Post by Duncan J Macdonald
Once the rocks were charged, loaded on the
catapults, and then fired, what would happen if a catapult broke in
the act and the rock landed on the villagers?
Meh. What if an AS attempted to pick apart a weave and it exploded (I'm
looking at YOU, Elayne), killing some bystanders? Accidents are not
weapons.
Jasper Janssen
2005-09-01 18:27:07 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:16:39 -0400, Duncan J Macdonald
Post by Duncan J Macdonald
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:23:47 -0400, Duncan J Macdonald
Post by Duncan J Macdonald
And what exactly were those things that Verin and Alanna made and
used in the defense of the Two Rivers.
No need. You can make all the weapons you want, as long as they
aren't used to harm man.
As long as they *cannot* be used to harm any men, I would say. The
explodey-catapult balls verin did were a) against trollocs and
darkfriends, therefore exempt, and b) they were doing it at the scene, and
they could see who they were being used against. That last doesn't apply
to simply making cannons.
It's a silly Oath anyway. Once the rocks were charged, loaded on the
catapults, and then fired, what would happen if a catapult broke in
the act and the rock landed on the villagers?
Accident. The oath pretty clearly refers to *intent*: "with which one man
may kill another man", that's not the same as "which might be lethal to
somebody if something unlikely happens", hell, they couldn't do *anything*
if accidents were taken into account.

Jasper
Tim Bruening
2010-03-24 02:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by steveo
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
Call them fireworks launching apparatus and have an Illuminator order them.
AS: But we don't know how to make fireworks launchers! Why are we being
ordered to make entertainment devices?
Karsten
2005-08-30 08:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
True, but the male "aes sedai" doesn't have that problem (and are probably
more inclined to trying something new.). Furthermore the weapons are to be
used against the DOs minions, so therefore it should be allowed.



Karsten
Antonio Contreras
2005-08-30 08:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
True, but the male "aes sedai" doesn't have that problem (and are probably
more inclined to trying something new.). Furthermore the weapons are to be
used against the DOs minions, so therefore it should be allowed.
IIRC the exact oath is "never doing a weapon with which one man _may_
kill another".

If this is the correct wording, it doesn't matter the porpouse of the
weapon, it's still a weapon usable against men, so they wouldn't be
able to do it... unless they convinced themselves they were not making
weapons.
Frank van Schie
2005-08-30 10:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Karsten
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
True, but the male "aes sedai" doesn't have that problem (and are probably
more inclined to trying something new.). Furthermore the weapons are to be
used against the DOs minions, so therefore it should be allowed.
IIRC the exact oath is "never doing a weapon with which one man _may_
kill another".
Yes, or "Never make a weapon for one man to kill another", which gives
wriggleroom in the sense that you might be making it for an army, not
'one man', that you might make it for a woman, that he doesn't wish to
kill another man, etc.

Besides, the existence of the Black Ajah means that any sister might be
unbound by these oaths anyway, and its existence is hardly a secret
anymore. This destroys any use the oaths would have, and they should be
rescinded.
Post by Antonio Contreras
If this is the correct wording, it doesn't matter the porpouse of the
weapon, it's still a weapon usable against men, so they wouldn't be
able to do it... unless they convinced themselves they were not making
weapons.
In Emond's Field, the two Aes Sedai charged rocks so they would explode.
I call that making a weapon. But you could consider that the rock was
already a weapon, and that they were simply improving upon it. Now
imagine a crappy-ass cannon, "Aes Sedai, patch that shit up"
--
Frank
Antonio Contreras
2005-08-30 11:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Karsten
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
True, but the male "aes sedai" doesn't have that problem (and are probably
more inclined to trying something new.). Furthermore the weapons are to be
used against the DOs minions, so therefore it should be allowed.
IIRC the exact oath is "never doing a weapon with which one man _may_
kill another".
Yes, or "Never make a weapon for one man to kill another", which gives
wriggleroom in the sense that you might be making it for an army, not
'one man', that you might make it for a woman, that he doesn't wish to
kill another man, etc.
I'll check the books when I have them availabel (posting from work
right now). If the wording is like you say then I'm with you, there are
tons of loopholes.
Post by Frank van Schie
Besides, the existence of the Black Ajah means that any sister might be
unbound by these oaths anyway, and its existence is hardly a secret
anymore. This destroys any use the oaths would have, and they should be
rescinded.
Highly arguable. The solution I would adopt is to eradicate the Black
Ajah. And I don't think the knowledge of the BA existence is as
widespread as you suggest. Surely almost every AS must know it by now
(not that they're going to say it aloud). But IMO the general populance
of Randland is not aware that the BA has shown itself.
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Antonio Contreras
If this is the correct wording, it doesn't matter the porpouse of the
weapon, it's still a weapon usable against men, so they wouldn't be
able to do it... unless they convinced themselves they were not making
weapons.
In Emond's Field, the two Aes Sedai charged rocks so they would explode.
I call that making a weapon. But you could consider that the rock was
already a weapon, and that they were simply improving upon it. Now
imagine a crappy-ass cannon, "Aes Sedai, patch that shit up"
I call the rock ammunition. That _could_ fit the definition of a
weapon. But the point is that the rock is not a weapon with which a man
may kill another. At least not without killing himself too. I mean, a
man cannot throw a stone of that size that far. And, given the blast
radius, more than probably he would kill himself. Then again, he would
still kill the other person...

I'm beginning to notice that every time a discussion deals with the
Three Oaths it gets into a infinite loop... Maybe RJ did not thought
out the Three Oaths as well as he thought he did...
Lorfarius
2005-08-30 11:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
I'm beginning to notice that every time a discussion deals with the
Three Oaths it gets into a infinite loop... Maybe RJ did not thought
out the Three Oaths as well as he thought he did...
Or maybe people are just reading way too deeply into what is effectively a
made up fantasy series. RJ is only human and the series has been going on
for many years, easy to make mistakes with the amount of work he must have
to do and has done so far.
Antonio Contreras
2005-08-30 11:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorfarius
Post by Antonio Contreras
I'm beginning to notice that every time a discussion deals with the
Three Oaths it gets into a infinite loop... Maybe RJ did not thought
out the Three Oaths as well as he thought he did...
Or maybe people are just reading way too deeply into what is effectively a
made up fantasy series. RJ is only human and the series has been going on
for many years, easy to make mistakes with the amount of work he must have
to do and has done so far.
I would agree with you if this comment was made in another context. The
Three Oaths are quite an integral part of the world, they should be
better thought. And they're mentioned as early as tEotW, and he hadn't
made that much amount of work by that time. My guess is that RJ
intented to produce something similar to the three laws of robotic...
and failed.
Lorfarius
2005-08-30 11:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Lorfarius
Post by Antonio Contreras
I'm beginning to notice that every time a discussion deals with the
Three Oaths it gets into a infinite loop... Maybe RJ did not thought
out the Three Oaths as well as he thought he did...
Or maybe people are just reading way too deeply into what is effectively a
made up fantasy series. RJ is only human and the series has been going on
for many years, easy to make mistakes with the amount of work he must have
to do and has done so far.
I would agree with you if this comment was made in another context. The
Three Oaths are quite an integral part of the world, they should be
better thought. And they're mentioned as early as tEotW, and he hadn't
made that much amount of work by that time. My guess is that RJ
intented to produce something similar to the three laws of robotic...
and failed.
The problem with TEOTW is that it wasnt planned to extend much past the 3rd
novel. If you read the 3rd novel its obvious that the series is over but RJ
realised what a money maker it was and so decided to return and extend the
series. Sadly some of the things he described in teh first 3 books need a
bit of imagination to solve their inherent problems as can be seen with the
Three Oaths problem.
Antonio Contreras
2005-08-30 13:48:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorfarius
The problem with TEOTW is that it wasnt planned to extend much past the 3rd
novel. If you read the 3rd novel its obvious that the series is over but RJ
realised what a money maker it was and so decided to return and extend the
series. Sadly some of the things he described in teh first 3 books need a
bit of imagination to solve their inherent problems as can be seen with the
Three Oaths problem.
Amen.
Frank van Schie
2005-08-31 01:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
I would agree with you if this comment was made in another context. The
Three Oaths are quite an integral part of the world, they should be
better thought. And they're mentioned as early as tEotW, and he hadn't
made that much amount of work by that time. My guess is that RJ
intented to produce something similar to the three laws of robotic...
and failed.
At first glance the rules seem to bar any mucking about, but alternate
wording when taking the Oaths, or just creative reasoning can give you
wriggle room. That's what the Aes Sedai use, and so we can assume that
they did this intentionally.
Karsten
2005-08-30 12:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
I'm beginning to notice that every time a discussion deals with the
Three Oaths it gets into a infinite loop... Maybe RJ did not thought
out the Three Oaths as well as he thought he did...
Actually I think they are. From TEOTW AS have been considered sneaky and
able to get out of any deal they make. Beeing able to get around oaths that
seems to bind them totally only reinforce this image.

Karsten
Dan Weiner
2005-08-31 00:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
I call the rock ammunition. That _could_ fit the definition of a
weapon. But the point is that the rock is not a weapon with which a man
may kill another. At least not without killing himself too. I mean, a
man cannot throw a stone of that size that far. And, given the blast
radius, more than probably he would kill himself. Then again, he would
still kill the other person...
The rocks are definitely weapons. (If you're not convinced: how about a
suicide bomber's backpack? Without doubt, a weapon.) But they were
definitely NOT made for one man to kill another; they were made for the
single purpose of killing Shadowspawn.
--
Taim is Demandred! Shut up, RJ! Shut up, irrefutable counterevidence!
Paul Lints
2005-08-31 06:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
I call the rock ammunition. That _could_ fit the definition of a
weapon. But the point is that the rock is not a weapon with which a man
may kill another. At least not without killing himself too. I mean, a
man cannot throw a stone of that size that far. And, given the blast
radius, more than probably he would kill himself. Then again, he would
still kill the other person...
The rocks are definitely weapons. (If you're not convinced: how about a
suicide bomber's backpack? Without doubt, a weapon.) But they were
definitely NOT made for one man to kill another; they were made for the
single purpose of killing Shadowspawn.
A sword could be made for the single purpose of killing Shadowspawn, yet
AS still seem to think that is prohibited by the Oath.
--
Paul W. Lints Jr. UIN: 25030144
Valid email: pwlints@*DELETEME*csupomona.edu
Zdenek Dvorak
2005-08-31 09:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Paul Lints
Post by Dan Weiner
Post by Antonio Contreras
I call the rock ammunition. That _could_ fit the definition of a
weapon. But the point is that the rock is not a weapon with which a man
may kill another. At least not without killing himself too. I mean, a
man cannot throw a stone of that size that far. And, given the blast
radius, more than probably he would kill himself. Then again, he would
still kill the other person...
The rocks are definitely weapons. (If you're not convinced: how about a
suicide bomber's backpack? Without doubt, a weapon.) But they were
definitely NOT made for one man to kill another; they were made for the
single purpose of killing Shadowspawn.
A sword could be made for the single purpose of killing Shadowspawn, yet
AS still seem to think that is prohibited by the Oath.
with the stone, they see to that it is immediately used against
Shadowspawn. Having a simialar guarantee with a sword is close to
impossible.

Zdenek
Tim Bruening
2010-03-24 02:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Karsten
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
True, but the male "aes sedai" doesn't have that problem (and are probably
more inclined to trying something new.). Furthermore the weapons are to be
used against the DOs minions, so therefore it should be allowed.
IIRC the exact oath is "never doing a weapon with which one man _may_
kill another".
Yes, or "Never make a weapon for one man to kill another", which gives
wriggleroom in the sense that you might be making it for an army, not
'one man', that you might make it for a woman, that he doesn't wish to
kill another man, etc.
Besides, the existence of the Black Ajah means that any sister might be
unbound by these oaths anyway, and its existence is hardly a secret
anymore. This destroys any use the oaths would have, and they should be
rescinded.
Post by Antonio Contreras
If this is the correct wording, it doesn't matter the porpouse of the
weapon, it's still a weapon usable against men, so they wouldn't be
able to do it... unless they convinced themselves they were not making
weapons.
In Emond's Field, the two Aes Sedai charged rocks so they would explode.
I call that making a weapon. But you could consider that the rock was
already a weapon, and that they were simply improving upon it. Now
imagine a crappy-ass cannon, "Aes Sedai, patch that shit up"
The rocks were intended for use against Trollocs.

Karsten
2005-08-30 12:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Karsten
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
True, but the male "aes sedai" doesn't have that problem (and are probably
more inclined to trying something new.). Furthermore the weapons are to be
used against the DOs minions, so therefore it should be allowed.
IIRC the exact oath is "never doing a weapon with which one man _may_
kill another".
If this is the correct wording, it doesn't matter the porpouse of the
weapon, it's still a weapon usable against men, so they wouldn't be
able to do it... unless they convinced themselves they were not making
weapons.
OK, but that still doesn't change that the male AS (from the Black tower)
haven't sworn any oath and will be able to make any weapon they like (if
they find out how.).

Karsten
Antonio Contreras
2005-08-30 13:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten
Post by Antonio Contreras
Post by Karsten
Post by Petter Strandmark
By setting up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons
Remember that AS cannot make weapons.
True, but the male "aes sedai" doesn't have that problem (and are probably
more inclined to trying something new.). Furthermore the weapons are to be
used against the DOs minions, so therefore it should be allowed.
IIRC the exact oath is "never doing a weapon with which one man _may_
kill another".
If this is the correct wording, it doesn't matter the porpouse of the
weapon, it's still a weapon usable against men, so they wouldn't be
able to do it... unless they convinced themselves they were not making
weapons.
OK, but that still doesn't change that the male AS (from the Black tower)
haven't sworn any oath and will be able to make any weapon they like (if
they find out how.).
Yes, totally true. And they should be better at it than AS since most
likely it should involve using Earth. I was only nitpicking about Aes
Sedai (not Asha'man) making weapons.
Karsten
2005-08-31 10:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antonio Contreras
Yes, totally true. And they should be better at it than AS since most
likely it should involve using Earth. I was only nitpicking about Aes
Sedai (not Asha'man) making weapons.
Asha'man !!!! that's the word :o) (just couldn't remember - thanks)

Karsten
Jasper Janssen
2005-08-30 22:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:37:29 +0200, "Sydo Zandstra"
I think this thread is too important to Mat's storyline to simply fizzle.
At the very least, they have to try it and fail to make a difference.
Thing is, bellcasters, however successful they may be, are not going to be
able to make huge numbers of cannons, and they don't have the technology
they make really accurate bores -- so the efficiency of those cannons will
be fairly atrocious.
OK, but in RandLand they have the use of magic. Wasn't the White Tower was
made by the use of magic (enhancing the strength of the stones)?? By setting
up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons that were precise and
strong enough to allow for size...OK I know that they would have to
rediscover the art of "magic constuction (sp?)", but that would be solved
easily.
Uhm. Oaths and shit. We shall not make weapons for one man to kill
another, and such. Channelers, maybe. Aes Sedai, no. So what you're left
with is the Kin, the Windinfders, and the Wise Ones -- none of which
groups are innovative or particularly skilled -- and the Seanchan damane.
Some seanchan damane are trained in working with metals, but they're very
rare and expensive and are by nature not innovative. It'd be "not to be
put aside lightly" time again if Jordan tried pulling this.


Jasper
Karsten
2005-08-31 10:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Uhm. Oaths and shit. We shall not make weapons for one man to kill
another, and such. Channelers, maybe. Aes Sedai, no. So what you're left
with is the Kin, the Windinfders, and the Wise Ones -- none of which
groups are innovative or particularly skilled -- and the Seanchan damane.
Some seanchan damane are trained in working with metals, but they're very
rare and expensive and are by nature not innovative. It'd be "not to be
put aside lightly" time again if Jordan tried pulling this.
You forget about Asha'man

Karsten
Jasper Janssen
2005-09-01 18:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten
Post by Jasper Janssen
Uhm. Oaths and shit. We shall not make weapons for one man to kill
another, and such. Channelers, maybe. Aes Sedai, no. So what you're left
with is the Kin, the Windinfders, and the Wise Ones -- none of which
groups are innovative or particularly skilled -- and the Seanchan damane.
Some seanchan damane are trained in working with metals, but they're very
rare and expensive and are by nature not innovative. It'd be "not to be
put aside lightly" time again if Jordan tried pulling this.
You forget about Asha'man
They're male, so they don't count.


Jasper
Karsten
2005-09-02 07:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Karsten
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:11:55 +0200, "Karsten"
Uhm. Oaths and shit. We shall not make weapons for one man to kill
another, and such. Channelers, maybe. Aes Sedai, no. So what you're left
with is the Kin, the Windinfders, and the Wise Ones -- none of which
groups are innovative or particularly skilled -- and the Seanchan damane.
Some seanchan damane are trained in working with metals, but they're very
rare and expensive and are by nature not innovative. It'd be "not to be
put aside lightly" time again if Jordan tried pulling this.
You forget about Asha'man
They're male, so they don't count.
???? yes they do. They can make weapons, which was the basis for this
discussion.

Karsten
Frank van Schie
2005-09-02 10:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten
???? yes they do. They can make weapons, which was the basis for this
discussion.
The basis for this discussion was Aes Sedai making weapons using old
construction techniques.

Do try and keep up.
--
Frank
Karsten
2005-09-02 12:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Karsten
???? yes they do. They can make weapons, which was the basis for this
discussion.
The basis for this discussion was Aes Sedai making weapons using old
construction techniques.
Do try and keep up.
aha....but the discussion that I responded to was whether if it was possible
to make cannons of cobber/brass (or whatever) that was precise enough for
military purposes. My point was that using magic it would be possible. A
counterargument to this was that AS cannot make weapons due to the oaths,
which led me to state that you have to take the men in consideration.

So I do try to keep up...do you :o)

Karsten
Jasper Janssen
2005-09-02 13:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Karsten
???? yes they do. They can make weapons, which was the basis for this
discussion.
The basis for this discussion was Aes Sedai making weapons using old
construction techniques.
No, he's actually more correct than I am. But this is *randland*. Males
*inherently* don't count. If I were to entertain the idea seriously, I
could point out that earth and fire talents are much less rare in asha'man
than in female channelers, therefore they'd have a much higher chance. But
do you see Mat asking the Black Tower to make black powder cannon?

Jasper
Karsten
2005-09-05 09:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jasper Janssen
Post by Frank van Schie
Post by Karsten
???? yes they do. They can make weapons, which was the basis for this
discussion.
The basis for this discussion was Aes Sedai making weapons using old
construction techniques.
No, he's actually more correct than I am. But this is *randland*. Males
*inherently* don't count. If I were to entertain the idea seriously, I
could point out that earth and fire talents are much less rare in asha'man
than in female channelers, therefore they'd have a much higher chance. But
do you see Mat asking the Black Tower to make black powder cannon?
heh... I cannot see anyone asking anything of any other group in randland,
so you do have a point there :o)

Karsten
Colin Zealley
2005-09-07 08:23:57 UTC
Permalink
No, but when he works out why that bell-founder was required, it'll be
interesting to see the results ...
Tim Bruening
2010-03-24 02:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karsten
Post by Jasper Janssen
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:37:29 +0200, "Sydo Zandstra"
I think this thread is too important to Mat's storyline to simply fizzle.
At the very least, they have to try it and fail to make a difference.
Thing is, bellcasters, however successful they may be, are not going to be
able to make huge numbers of cannons, and they don't have the technology
they make really accurate bores -- so the efficiency of those cannons will
be fairly atrocious.
OK, but in RandLand they have the use of magic. Wasn't the White Tower was
made by the use of magic (enhancing the strength of the stones)?? By setting
up a line of AS they could make a number of cannons that were precise and
strong enough to allow for size...OK I know that they would have to
rediscover the art of "magic constuction (sp?)", but that would be solved
easily.
This would violate the 2nd Oath against using the OP to make weapons (unless the
cannons could be programed to kill only Shadowsprawn.
Chris Moore
2005-08-24 03:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
The result: stuff happens.
Better yet: stuff finishes.
That's a good enough review for me. Thanks.


Chris
NightBaron
2005-08-24 14:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jason Denzel
Hi folks,
I had an opportunity to read KNIFE OF DREAMS. Below is my "spoiler
free" review. If you want to pass this around, please use this link
here.
<anip review>

Thanks Jason, I'm looking forward to reading the book!
Phil Harmonica
2005-08-27 17:14:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jason: speaking as someone who agreed with your COD review, I am
extremely encouraged by your review of KOD. I'd like to ask you a question,
if I could, that has been raised on another forum about an apparent
discrepancy in your review:

Early on in your review, you say: "...The result: stuff happens.
Better yet: stuff finishes."
Later, along similar lines, you say: "I can honestly say, without hyperbole,
that this novel is the most focused, most action-packed book in the latter
half of the series. This book contains more death and dying than any other
WoT
novel. Talk about a body count! Not to mention a lot of answers to questions
we've been asking for a while."

All clear enough, but then you write: "The above mentioned Nynaeve moment, a
certain vision coming true, a critical change in Rand, and yes, even
Egwene's special tea. (That's not a joke). All of them are iconic moments in
my mind. Not too big, however. You can tell that even now Robert Jordan is
holding onto his best cards for the final novel. The biggest battles and
encounters are yet to come. The end of the novel is not as abrupt as CoT,
but it was just enough to whet my appetite for the last book."

This is where some readers are confused. Aren't iconic moments, by their
very nature, "big"? Is it that the "iconic moments" in KOD show the
characters in question at their most individual or personal without
necessarily moving the plot forward? "A critical change in Rand", for
instance, sounds fairly "big", but you say these iconic moments aren't "too
big". I think this question comes down to reconciling the plot
progress/resolutions that you mention with iconic moments but "not too big"
ones.

I'm sure you can't give away any specifics and probably would rather not in
any case, but could you possibly help clarify what you mean here? Thank you
once again for your preview of the book and for any light you could shed on
this puzzling point (for some of us, at least).
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