Asmodean.. the lamest of the forsaken

[George Francis]

The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.

Rand is racing Asmodean to Rhuidean because they both want to get their
hands on the 'key' ter'angreal therein.

From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.

In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception of
'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their precise
destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to Travel this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by George Francis
The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.
Rand is racing Asmodean to Rhuidean because they both want to get their
hands on the 'key' ter'angreal therein.
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception of
'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their precise
destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to Travel this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

It is stated in the books that if you want to have any certainty about
where a gate will open you must know well the place you're travelling
to. When you don't know the place where you stand well, but know the
place where you are going to, you can skim.

IIRC the SAS skimmed from wherever they happened to camp to Salidar and
then they travelled back, because they knew Salidar well, but not the
place where they camped.

In that particular scene with Rand and Asmo, neither of them have spent
a lot of time in the Bowl, so they must resort to skimming.

OTOH, the fact that in this scene he doesn't act stupidly, doesn't make
him less of a failure as an evil overlord...

[a***@gmail.com]

Isn't skimming the method of choice when you don't know your
destination? I would think that neither of them was familiar with
Rhuidean.

[Wil Hunt]

Post by George Francis
The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.
Rand is racing Asmodean to Rhuidean because they both want to get their
hands on the 'key' ter'angreal therein.
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception of
'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their precise
destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to Travel this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

If I'm not mistaken (and I usually am...), Skimming is used when the
channeler is not "in tune" with where he is. Travelling requires the
channeler to be very familiar with where he/she is, but not necessarily
where he/she is going. Skimming does not have this requirement. Since
Asmodean was not familiar with the land around Alcair Dal, he had to
Skim instead of Travel.

That said, Asmodean is still the runt of the litter, IMHO...

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Wil Hunt

Post by George Francis
The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.
Rand is racing Asmodean to Rhuidean because they both want to get their
hands on the 'key' ter'angreal therein.
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception of
'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their precise
destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to Travel this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

If I'm not mistaken (and I usually am...), Skimming is used when the
channeler is not "in tune" with where he is. Travelling requires the
channeler to be very familiar with where he/she is, but not necessarily
where he/she is going. Skimming does not have this requirement. Since
Asmodean was not familiar with the land around Alcair Dal, he had to
Skim instead of Travel.
That said, Asmodean is still the runt of the litter, IMHO...

Asmodean had never been to Rhuidean either. Does Skimming require that you know
your destination?

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Wil Hunt

Post by George Francis
The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.
Rand is racing Asmodean to Rhuidean because they both want to get their
hands on the 'key' ter'angreal therein.
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception of
'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their precise
destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to Travel this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

If I'm not mistaken (and I usually am...), Skimming is used when the
channeler is not "in tune" with where he is. Travelling requires the
channeler to be very familiar with where he/she is, but not necessarily
where he/she is going. Skimming does not have this requirement. Since
Asmodean was not familiar with the land around Alcair Dal, he had to
Skim instead of Travel.
That said, Asmodean is still the runt of the litter, IMHO...

Asmodean had never been to Rhuidean either. Does Skimming require that
you know your destination?

[David Chapman]

Post by George Francis
Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to
Travel this way?

RTFB. It takes at least twelve hours to know a location well enough to
Travel from it, and that's if you're just learning the location. If you
only know where you're going to, you have to Skim.

I'd also say there was more to Asmo than we ever saw. So what if he wasn't
quite as strong as the other men, and turned to the Dark solely for the
benefits package? We know he was ruthless; he stilled his own mother. His
skill in musical composition suggests he had an excellent sense of timing,
which is vital in strategy as well. Most importantly, unlike all the other
Forsaken he had no strong emotion or drive that would cloud his judgement -
all he wanted to do was win the war for the DO, then kick back and enjoy the
rewards. Frankly, if I were Rand I'd rather face three jealous Demandreds
or lustful Balthamels than one quiet, patient man.

[Dan Weiner]

Post by David Chapman
I'd also say there was more to Asmo than we ever saw. So what if he wasn't
quite as strong as the other men, and turned to the Dark solely for the
benefits package? We know he was ruthless; he stilled his own mother. His
skill in musical composition suggests he had an excellent sense of timing,
which is vital in strategy as well. Most importantly, unlike all the other
Forsaken he had no strong emotion or drive that would cloud his judgement -
all he wanted to do was win the war for the DO, then kick back and enjoy the
rewards. Frankly, if I were Rand I'd rather face three jealous Demandreds
or lustful Balthamels than one quiet, patient man.

You're right about his character, but I think you underestimate the
importance of strength. Rand's superior strength wins the battle, so
Asmo's relative weakness was the direct cause of his downfall.

---D

[David Chapman]

Post by Dan Weiner
You're right about his character, but I think you underestimate the
importance of strength. Rand's superior strength wins the battle, so
Asmo's relative weakness was the direct cause of his downfall.

Agreed, but LTT/Rand is stronger than any male channeller anyway. Besides,
Lanfear helped a bit.

[Velk]

Post by Dan Weiner

Post by David Chapman
I'd also say there was more to Asmo than we ever saw. So what if he wasn't
quite as strong as the other men, and turned to the Dark solely for the
benefits package? We know he was ruthless; he stilled his own mother. His
skill in musical composition suggests he had an excellent sense of timing,
which is vital in strategy as well. Most importantly, unlike all the other
Forsaken he had no strong emotion or drive that would cloud his judgement -
all he wanted to do was win the war for the DO, then kick back and enjoy the
rewards. Frankly, if I were Rand I'd rather face three jealous Demandreds
or lustful Balthamels than one quiet, patient man.

You're right about his character, but I think you underestimate the
importance of strength. Rand's superior strength wins the battle, so
Asmo's relative weakness was the direct cause of his downfall.

It didn't actually. Rand was slowly losing the fight up until the point
he made a sneak attack with his personal angreal.

So more strategy, luck and better equipment in that case than brute
strength.

[George Francis]

His skill in musical composition suggests he had an excellent sense of

timing,

which is vital in strategy as well.

errr.. timing, as in music and timing as in strategy are surely completely
different things.
To suggest that experience in one would help you with the other is, frankly,
lame-ass.
Think about it this way; would you suggest that a lifetime of scheming
against adversaries would give you some advantageous predisposition when it
came to learning music!?

[Elfseeker]

Post by George Francis
errr.. timing, as in music and timing as in strategy are surely completely
different things.
To suggest that experience in one would help you with the other is, frankly,
lame-ass.
Think about it this way; would you suggest that a lifetime of scheming
against adversaries would give you some advantageous predisposition when it
came to learning music!?

Not exactly the point, as I see it. Timing is timing. If you know what you
are playing, knowing when to do what is pretty much equal in both
enterprises.
MHO, of course.

[David Chapman]

Post by George Francis

His skill in musical composition suggests he had an excellent sense of
timing, which is vital in strategy as well.

errr.. timing, as in music and timing as in strategy are surely completely
different things.

No, they're not. It's all about when and how to properly utilise various
sections of the forces under your command. The execution is different, but
the underlying principles remain the same for everything.

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by David Chapman

Post by George Francis

His skill in musical composition suggests he had an excellent sense of
timing, which is vital in strategy as well.

errr.. timing, as in music and timing as in strategy are surely completely
different things.

No, they're not. It's all about when and how to properly utilise various
sections of the forces under your command. The execution is different, but
the underlying principles remain the same for everything.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

Speaking as a semi-professional musician, I'm not sure I buy this at
all. Body timing and strategic timing are really crazily different
things. Knowing how to use my body to produce the certain musical
effects I want doesn't make me a good Star Craft player.

[Dan Weiner]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by David Chapman

Post by George Francis

His skill in musical composition suggests he had an excellent sense of
timing, which is vital in strategy as well.

errr.. timing, as in music and timing as in strategy are surely completely
different things.

No, they're not. It's all about when and how to properly utilise various
sections of the forces under your command. The execution is different, but
the underlying principles remain the same for everything.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?

Speaking as a semi-professional musician, I'm not sure I buy this at
all. Body timing and strategic timing are really crazily different
things. Knowing how to use my body to produce the certain musical
effects I want doesn't make me a good Star Craft player.

Keep in mind Asmo was a composer, not just a musician. I'm not so sure
I buy this theory either, but it at least makes sense:

After X measures of quiet, I hit them with the brass! They'll
never expect it!

After X weeks of seige, I hit them with the Trollocs! They'll
never expect it!

--D

[David Chapman]

Post by Dan Weiner
After X measures of quiet, I hit them with the brass! They'll
never expect it!
After X weeks of seige, I hit them with the Trollocs! They'll
never expect it!

Well, not quite. It's more that a composer knows that you don't get the
best musical effect by firing up the whole orchestra at maximum volume right
away or letting them play whatever they want. Each section of the orchestra
must be brought in to the music at the proper time and they must play only
what you want them to play. Everyone must be synchronised to the same
rhythm.

Expressed like that, I'm sure you can see the similarities between writing a
symphony and planning a battle. I'm not saying that doing the one qualifies
you for the other, but when it comes to learning and applying a skill set
you have a definite leg-up if you can find similarities with a skill set you
already have.

It's also worth reading the section in Musashi's Book of Five Rings where he
compares the science of martial arts to carpentry. Ten or twelve times, for
preference, until you understand all the comparisons. (In fact, just read
the whole book - it's not very long and if you Google for "book of five
rings" there's a translation as the Lucky hit.)

[Paul Lints]

Post by George Francis
The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.
Rand is racing Asmodean to Rhuidean because they both want to get their
hands on the 'key' ter'angreal therein.
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception of
'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their precise
destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to Travel this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

Asmodean knew how to Travel, and he alluded to it when he was teaching
Rand about the Power (although at that time he was too weak to do it).
The reason he would have Skimmed to just outside Rhuidean is because in
order to Trave, you need to know the place you are departing from really
well. They hadn't been at Alcair Dal long. On the other hand, he'd
done quite a bit of snooping outside of Rhuidean, and in order to Skim
you only need to know your destination well.

[Eric Means]

Post by Paul Lints
Asmodean knew how to Travel, and he alluded to it when he was teaching
Rand about the Power (although at that time he was too weak to do it).

What's interesting about this is that Sorilea teaches Cadsuane
Traveling, *even though Sorilea is too weak to form a gateway* -- she
forms the weave, only to have it fail, but Cadsuane can somehow pick up
from that how to make a Gateway.

If that's the case, why was Asmodean's weakness (due to Lanfear's
shield) any kind of a block to teaching at all? Asmodean could have
woven the flows even if they wouldn't work.

Was Asmodean intentionally keeping things back in spite of his
professed loyalty, or did RJ make a mistake in using Sorilea to show
Cadsuane Travelling?

[Matt Schroeder]

Post by Eric Means
Was Asmodean intentionally keeping things back in spite of his
professed loyalty, or did RJ make a mistake in using Sorilea to show
Cadsuane Travelling?

I don't see a mistake here. There is no problem with Asmodean holding
back. His hand was forced to play for both sides and probably saw that
as a good way to keep a few cards. This seems completely within
character for him and for Lanfear not to tell Rand about it, assuming
she knew.

cheers,
matt.

[zed246]

Post by George Francis
The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.
Rand is racing Asmodean to Rhuidean because they both want to get their
hands on the 'key' ter'angreal therein.
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception of
'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their precise
destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to Travel this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter..

As many had already said - Asmo didn't know Alcair Dal very well so he
needed to Skim.

But what you brought up here seems like a big mistake by RJ:
In CoS Eg describes the way the SAS are skimming back to Salidar. She
mentions that the Skimmers do not see each other during the Skim and
the only way to make that is to make the gateway in the exact same spot
with the weaves exactly the same (which is difficult by Eg POV). So
there shouldn't had been any way for Rand to see Asmo. oops.

[Oliver Daniels]

Good point zed, well spotted. Old RJ would probably resort to his
T.G.O.C. (Ta'veren Get Out Clause) to explain that one.

[Bill]

Post by zed246

Post by George Francis
The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.
Rand is racing Asmodean to Rhuidean because they both want to get their
hands on the 'key' ter'angreal therein.
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception of
'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their precise
destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to Travel this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter..

As many had already said - Asmo didn't know Alcair Dal very well so he
needed to Skim.
In CoS Eg describes the way the SAS are skimming back to Salidar. She
mentions that the Skimmers do not see each other during the Skim and
the only way to make that is to make the gateway in the exact same spot
with the weaves exactly the same (which is difficult by Eg POV). So
there shouldn't had been any way for Rand to see Asmo. oops.

Rand can see "residues." He followed Asmo from the exact same spot
with the exact same weave. (Well, I guess he must have copied the
weave whose residue he saw exactly if he could see Asmo.)

[Geoffrey Willmore]

"zed246" wrote in message

Post by zed246
In CoS Eg describes the way the SAS are skimming back to Salidar. She
mentions that the Skimmers do not see each other during the Skim and
the only way to make that is to make the gateway in the exact same spot
with the weaves exactly the same (which is difficult by Eg POV). So
there shouldn't had been any way for Rand to see Asmo. oops.

Apart from the others explanations already given, one can also say that
things do not work the same for men and women.

[Jamie Bowden]

Post by George Francis
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception
of 'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their
precise destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to
Travel this way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely
be considered the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

Do you read for comprehension? You cannot Travel from a location you are
not familiar with.

Jamie Bowden

[George Francis]

OK - as all the correct people here have pointed out; you need to know your
ORIGIN, not your DESTINATION to use a gateway.
We know that Asmo wants to get into Rhidean, because Eg (or Nyn) see him in
the dream poking around the edges.
The question is; why does he travel with the peddlers waggons _away_ from
Rhuiden - why not
(a) use skimming immediately
(b) create a gateway from Cold Rocks Hold - a place he stayed in long enough
to satisy the 'familiarity' requirement.

Post by Jamie Bowden

Post by George Francis
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception
of 'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their
precise destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to
Travel this way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely
be considered the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

Do you read for comprehension? You cannot Travel from a location you are
not familiar with.
Jamie Bowden
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by George Francis
OK - as all the correct people here have pointed out; you need to know your
ORIGIN, not your DESTINATION to use a gateway.
We know that Asmo wants to get into Rhidean, because Eg (or Nyn) see him in
the dream poking around the edges.
The question is; why does he travel with the peddlers waggons _away_ from
Rhuiden - why not
(a) use skimming immediately
(b) create a gateway from Cold Rocks Hold - a place he stayed in long enough
to satisy the 'familiarity' requirement.

IIRC, at that time Rhuidean was surrounded by a dense fog of magical
nature. Asmo was not sure if he would be able to get into there. He
travels to Rhuidean after the events in Alcai Dar maybe because he
thinks that Rand has too much in his hands at the moment so he will
have some time to study the fog and figure a way in.

[George Francis]

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by George Francis
OK - as all the correct people here have pointed out; you need to know your
ORIGIN, not your DESTINATION to use a gateway.
We know that Asmo wants to get into Rhidean, because Eg (or Nyn) see him in
the dream poking around the edges.
The question is; why does he travel with the peddlers waggons _away_ from
Rhuiden - why not
(a) use skimming immediately
(b) create a gateway from Cold Rocks Hold - a place he stayed in long enough
to satisy the 'familiarity' requirement.

IIRC, at that time Rhuidean was surrounded by a dense fog of magical
nature. Asmo was not sure if he would be able to get into there. He
travels to Rhuidean after the events in Alcai Dar maybe because he
thinks that Rand has too much in his hands at the moment so he will
have some time to study the fog and figure a way in.

I'm not sure about 'figure a way in'; since he can simply waly in (as he
shows). But it's a valid point that he wants Rand to be distracted when he
goes in - Lanfear actually admits that Couladin was a diversion they had
concocted for that very purpose (presumably thats how he got the Dragon
tattoos).
But this still doesn't explain why he doesn't go during the Draghkar attack
on Cold Rocks Hold...Rand was sure distracted by that..

[Velk]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by George Francis
OK - as all the correct people here have pointed out; you need to know

your

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by George Francis
ORIGIN, not your DESTINATION to use a gateway.
We know that Asmo wants to get into Rhidean, because Eg (or Nyn) see him

in

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by George Francis
the dream poking around the edges.
The question is; why does he travel with the peddlers waggons _away_

from

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by George Francis
Rhuiden - why not
(a) use skimming immediately
(b) create a gateway from Cold Rocks Hold - a place he stayed in long

enough

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by George Francis
to satisy the 'familiarity' requirement.

IIRC, at that time Rhuidean was surrounded by a dense fog of magical
nature. Asmo was not sure if he would be able to get into there. He
travels to Rhuidean after the events in Alcai Dar maybe because he
thinks that Rand has too much in his hands at the moment so he will
have some time to study the fog and figure a way in.

I'm not sure about 'figure a way in'; since he can simply waly in (as he
shows). But it's a valid point that he wants Rand to be distracted when he
goes in - Lanfear actually admits that Couladin was a diversion they had
concocted for that very purpose (presumably thats how he got the Dragon
tattoos).
But this still doesn't explain why he doesn't go during the Draghkar attack
on Cold Rocks Hold...Rand was sure distracted by that..

He probably did, we know he spent a while studying the barrier around
rhuidean ( being spotted by dreamwalkers a few times IIRC ) so
presumably he was being cautious.

Overall a pretty sensible response - as an immortal with a reputation
for caution, what would you think of walking into a heavily warded
cloud of some extremely dense unidentifiable gas to see what would
happen ?

[Elfseeker]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Eric Means]

Post by Elfseeker
Kinda strange, though. From what I could tell back when the ladies had their
captive Forsaken, ALL the Forsaken preferred skimming for safety's sake. And
now we got women (who were supposed to be the side weakest with the required
weaves)Travelling all over the place???

Why would you think Travelling is dangerous? Nobody ever so much as
implies that it is*.

We can't really say for certain whether the Forsaken prefer Skimming to
Travelling; RJ doesn't really specify which is happening when any of
the Forsaken create gateways. It's probably a mixture of the two,
based on need: if the FS knows the place they are, they Travel; if not,
they Skim. For instance, when Sammael visits Graendal in her palace
for the first time, he probably Traveled there -- but Skimmed back. RJ
doesn't differentiate most of the time, nor does he really need to.

The open question for me (having just reread ACoS) is what Aviendha's
form of Traveling comprises. She states in ACoS that when she Travels
the way Egwene has taught her, she cannot make a gateway near as large
as Eg, despite being close in power. Later in the same book it is
stated by an AS that learning a second way to do the same thing is very
difficult, and never as efficient as the first way. It seems likely
that however Avi Traveled in Far Snows is different from Egwene's
method; the question is why this is (and whether RJ has plans to
clarify it).

* Except for once, when Egwene asks Rand how he Travels. He bores a
hole; she later discovers that women Travel by making the two places in
the Pattern identical. This is not because Rand's method is
*dangerous* per se, but because men and women Travel differently.
(Rand's method would be dangerous for a woman; Egwene's would be
dangerous for a man.)

[Antonio Contreras]

Eric Means wrote:

<snip discussion about wether the FS travel of skim>

Post by Eric Means
The open question for me (having just reread ACoS) is what Aviendha's
form of Traveling comprises. She states in ACoS that when she Travels
the way Egwene has taught her, she cannot make a gateway near as large
as Eg, despite being close in power. Later in the same book it is
stated by an AS that learning a second way to do the same thing is very
difficult, and never as efficient as the first way. It seems likely
that however Avi Traveled in Far Snows is different from Egwene's
method; the question is why this is (and whether RJ has plans to
clarify it).

I don't think that Avi's first gateway works in a different way than
Eg's, but that the weaving done to produce the effect (making 2 places
in the pattern identical) is different. Think of fireballs, for
example. We know there is more than one way to weave a fireball, but
the net effect is the same.

[Elfseeker]

Post by Eric Means
Why would you think Travelling is dangerous? Nobody ever so much as
implies that it is*.

Not correct. Somewhere along the line -someone- who knows how it's done is
making a good show of being afraid of the very idea. That it suddenly became
the equivalent to the taxi down on the corner was part of what made me less
than enthusiastic about continuing to read the series. But for my nagging
need to -know how it ends-, I'd have quit it ages ago.

[Eric Means]

Post by Elfseeker

Post by Eric Means
Why would you think Travelling is dangerous? Nobody ever so much as
implies that it is*.

Not correct. Somewhere along the line -someone- who knows how it's done is
making a good show of being afraid of the very idea. That it suddenly became
the equivalent to the taxi down on the corner was part of what made me less
than enthusiastic about continuing to read the series. But for my nagging
need to -know how it ends-, I'd have quit it ages ago.

Do you have a book/page ref? I've reread up to the beginning of
Winter's Heart over the last 3 weeks and I don't recall anyone saying
or implying anything of the sort.

You're not thinking of the Wise Ones' prohibition on being in
Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, are you?

[Elfseeker]

Post by Eric Means

Post by Elfseeker
Not correct. Somewhere along the line -someone- who knows how it's done is
making a good show of being afraid of the very idea. That it suddenly became
the equivalent to the taxi down on the corner was part of what made me less
than enthusiastic about continuing to read the series. But for my nagging
need to -know how it ends-, I'd have quit it ages ago.

Do you have a book/page ref? I've reread up to the beginning of
Winter's Heart over the last 3 weeks and I don't recall anyone saying
or implying anything of the sort.
You're not thinking of the Wise Ones' prohibition on being in
Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, are you?

No, not at all. I think it was when Rand wanted to know a more efficient way
of travelling. some memory of Lews Therin's prodding him? Anyway, his 'Bard'
was plainly disturbed by the notion of Travelling. The very process of
creating the portal itself. Don't quite know why, as the Forsaken seem to
use it as others use doors, but that's how I read it; he wanted little to
nothing to do with it. Messing with the Pattern or somesuch. 'should not be
done' that whole spiel. likely an act, but I can't see why he'd bother.

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by Elfseeker

Post by Eric Means

Post by Elfseeker
Not correct. Somewhere along the line -someone- who knows how it's done is
making a good show of being afraid of the very idea. That it suddenly became
the equivalent to the taxi down on the corner was part of what made me less
than enthusiastic about continuing to read the series. But for my nagging
need to -know how it ends-, I'd have quit it ages ago.

Do you have a book/page ref? I've reread up to the beginning of
Winter's Heart over the last 3 weeks and I don't recall anyone saying
or implying anything of the sort.
You're not thinking of the Wise Ones' prohibition on being in
Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, are you?

No, not at all. I think it was when Rand wanted to know a more efficient way
of travelling. some memory of Lews Therin's prodding him? Anyway, his 'Bard'
was plainly disturbed by the notion of Travelling. The very process of
creating the portal itself. Don't quite know why, as the Forsaken seem to
use it as others use doors, but that's how I read it; he wanted little to
nothing to do with it. Messing with the Pattern or somesuch. 'should not be
done' that whole spiel. likely an act, but I can't see why he'd bother.

IIRC, that scene is when Eg asks Rand how does he travel. Egwene asks
him if he doesn't make the two places in the pattern identical, and
Rand gets disturbed and says that that would be like acting as the
Creator, something that should not be done.

Well, maybe you're referint to another passage, but that is the only
one I can remember where someone expresses a dislike for travelling.

[loial]

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by Elfseeker

Post by Eric Means

Post by Elfseeker
Not correct. Somewhere along the line -someone- who knows how it's done is
making a good show of being afraid of the very idea. That it suddenly became
the equivalent to the taxi down on the corner was part of what made me less
than enthusiastic about continuing to read the series. But for my nagging
need to -know how it ends-, I'd have quit it ages ago.

Do you have a book/page ref? I've reread up to the beginning of
Winter's Heart over the last 3 weeks and I don't recall anyone saying
or implying anything of the sort.
You're not thinking of the Wise Ones' prohibition on being in
Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, are you?

No, not at all. I think it was when Rand wanted to know a more efficient way
of travelling. some memory of Lews Therin's prodding him? Anyway, his 'Bard'
was plainly disturbed by the notion of Travelling. The very process of
creating the portal itself. Don't quite know why, as the Forsaken seem to
use it as others use doors, but that's how I read it; he wanted little to
nothing to do with it. Messing with the Pattern or somesuch. 'should not be
done' that whole spiel. likely an act, but I can't see why he'd bother.

IIRC, that scene is when Eg asks Rand how does he travel. Egwene asks
him if he doesn't make the two places in the pattern identical, and
Rand gets disturbed and says that that would be like acting as the
Creator, something that should not be done.
Well, maybe you're referint to another passage, but that is the only
one I can remember where someone expresses a dislike for travelling.

That, and I believe there was a place where someone was scared of the
idea of going into a gateway from the wrong side or something like
that.

On a separate note, I agree with David. Asmo was what he was. He was
never a great general or OP researcher or whatever. He was a musician.
He certainly wasn't the strongest or the coolest, but I think he gets
a bit of a bad rap. Hobbled, trapped between the DR and Lanny,
believed by the other FS to have betrayed the shadow. What exactly was
he supposed to do? I think the lamest, wussiest FS is Moggy. Sure,
she was useful during the War of the Power, but what has she done
lately?

[zed246]

Post by Antonio Contreras
IIRC, that scene is when Eg asks Rand how does he travel. Egwene asks
him if he doesn't make the two places in the pattern identical, and
Rand gets disturbed and says that that would be like acting as the
Creator, something that should not be done.
Well, maybe you're referint to another passage, but that is the only
one I can remember where someone expresses a dislike for travelling.

No, you've got it all backwards. Rand doesn't asks Eg how to Travel -
she asks him. He tells her that he makes a hole in the pattern.
Later on as she makes Moghy teach it to her she says that she was
thinking on Traveling in the same way Rand does. Moghy is stricken with
terror from the very notion and shows Eg how women Travel - by making
places similar.

That's said, there are several possible reasons for Moghy to be
terrified of the idea:
1. From her nature it is possible that Moghy do not know how man Travel
and when learning it she is scared because, well - it is scary.
2. Maybe the FS are traveling in a completely different way (the way
Moghy pointed out?) and Rand had discovered another way to Travel
which, as said above, is quite scary-sounding.
3. Maybe for a woman to try it will make the worlld transform into a
red olive with a smily face on it (kids, don't try this at home).

But the fact is, except for Moghy's reaction there is no evidence that
Traveling is hazardous. The FS are Traveling all the time (including
into Rhavin's throne room in TFOH - the best example I recall right
now).

And about which way to access a gateway: Loial (or maybe M) says it is
very unhealthy to go behind waygates (not gateways - waygates are the
ones for The Ways). I don't think anything happen to you if you try to
enter a gateway from the wrong end. Rather I think it is impossible and
much like walking into a solid wall. I semm to recall that when Nyn,
Elayne and Avi ran away from the Seanchen we saw how the gateway looks
from behind.

[David Wachsmuth]

Post by zed246
And about which way to access a gateway: Loial (or maybe M) says it is
very unhealthy to go behind waygates (not gateways - waygates are the
ones for The Ways). I don't think anything happen to you if you try to
enter a gateway from the wrong end. Rather I think it is impossible and
much like walking into a solid wall. I semm to recall that when Nyn,
Elayne and Avi ran away from the Seanchen we saw how the gateway
looks from behind.

However, an interesting inconsistency about gateways and directions is
where you can open an exit from a Skimming platform. In tFoH, when Rand
is skimming with all the Aiel to attack Caemlyn, he thinks that he
could open the exit on any side he'd like, but just likes doing it
opposite the entrance. On the other hand, in aCoS Egwene remembers
Moghedien being terrified at the prospect of opening the exit gateway
in the same place as the entrance - something about not being sure
where you would emerge.

Is this a slipup, or another difference between the ways men and women
use gateways?

[zed246]

David Wachsmuth wrote:

snip alot

Post by David Wachsmuth
Is this a slipup, or another difference between the ways men and women
use gateways?

I think it's just Rand thinking he's Mister-Knows-It-All.


Maybe it's a good time as any to bring up my OP theory:

I think the OP is actualy a way to manipulate things on quatum level.

Now - it's must be said that I do not know physics and most likely have
a lot of things mixed up, so if you feel the need to call me names and
correct me - you are welcome to it since it is only obvious that I have
SOME things wrong.
But in case I do not, here goes:
The Uncertainty Factor in Quantum means that you cannot know the exact
place of a particle AND his speed, because measuring one inevitably
alters the other. This means you cannot know where each particle will
actualy go, and thus predict the effect it will cause.
Imagine a pool game where you can tell in advance where all the balls
will go and which ones they will hit in turn - you will be able to
predict the entire game.
The idea came to me as RJ described Rand's Void - the Oneness - Rand is
able to feel everything amplified. What if this is simply how he's mind
interprets the knwoledge of both place and speed of each particle. Not
every mind is able to sense it but some do and can with some learning.
The Talents are simply variations of the way each channeler makes use
of the knowledge, just like some can take what they learn in math and
apply it on, say, a second language and some can't.
That is the way some can Fortell - they know what will happen, but
their own mind cannot actualy proccess the information, so it's breaks
it down into clouded poetry.
Healing is restoring the particles to their place and Balefire is
removing them completely and restoring the particles they had effected
on their way to their original courses.
Traveling, on it's versions of the Ways and Skimming, is seeing the
space between the particles in which a way may be made to reach a
distant place. It is known (or so I understand, please don't kill
me...) that Quarks react to each-other even across great distances.
Some think (or so I've read, please don't kill, please...) that it is
because they react to other particles in _other dimensions_.
Thus, when one knows the location and speed of all particles around
him, he maybe able to bridge across them (Traveling), or when knowing
the end of the line - aim for it and traveling along it (Skimming).
This might also be the logic behind the Portal Stones.

As I said before - I know next to nothing about Quantum except for bits
and odds that I've read from science magazines and some books, though
none professional, and a bit from the short time I did spend learning
it in school (about two weekly hours 4 years ago). So it is very
probable that what I've just said may suggest the earth to tilt and
make the rest of the Solar System to form into a Konga Line...

But still, this is my theory as to the nature of the One Power.

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by zed246

Post by Antonio Contreras
IIRC, that scene is when Eg asks Rand how does he travel. Egwene asks
him if he doesn't make the two places in the pattern identical, and
Rand gets disturbed and says that that would be like acting as the
Creator, something that should not be done.
Well, maybe you're referint to another passage, but that is the only
one I can remember where someone expresses a dislike for travelling.

No, you've got it all backwards. Rand doesn't asks Eg how to Travel -
she asks him.

Re-read the first sentence of my post. I said "Eg asks Rand". Maybe it
was you who had my post backwards. :P

Post by zed246
He tells her that he makes a hole in the pattern.

I've re-read the passage, and quoted the relevant part:

"Rand, are you sure there isn't any sense of making things the same ...
or...." She did not know how to put it, but in any case, he shook his
head before she trailed off.
"That sounds like changing the weave of the Pattern. I think it would
tear me apart if I so much as tried. I bore a hole." He poked a finger
at her to demonstrate.

LoC. Chp 27 "Gifts".

So the Creator part I didn't remember correctly, but all the rest I
said was true.

Post by zed246
Later on as she makes Moghy teach it to her she says that she was
thinking on Traveling in the same way Rand does. Moghy is stricken with
terror from the very notion and shows Eg how women Travel - by making
places similar.

Actually Moghy doesn't show the weave to Eg, she explains how it is
done, and then Eg surprises her by weaving a gateway.

Post by zed246
That's said, there are several possible reasons for Moghy to be
1. From her nature it is possible that Moghy do not know how man Travel
and when learning it she is scared because, well - it is scary.

Ruled out, read the following quote:

(Egwene) "[...]I have considered traveling from one place to another by
boring a hole, so to speak, from here to there. A hole through the
Pattern, so there's no distance between one end and the other. How well
will that work?"
"Not at all, for you or any woman," Moghedien said, breathless and
quick. The fear that boiled inside was plain on her face now. "That is
how men Travel." The capital was plain; she was speaking of one of the
lost Talents. "If you
try, you will be sucked into.... I don't know what it is. The space
between the threads of the Pattern, maybe. I don't think you would live
very long. I know you would never come back."
"Traveling," Nynaeve muttered disgustedly. "We never thought of
Traveling!"
"No, we didn't." Elayne sounded no more pleased with herself. "I wonder
what else we never thought of."
Egwene ignored them. "Then how?" she asked softly. A quiet voice was
always better than shouting.
Moghedien flinched as though she had shouted anyway. "You make the two
places in the Pattern identical. I can
show you how. It takes a little effort, because of the .. the necklace,
but I can- "
"Like this?" Egwene said, embracing saidar, and wove flows of Spirit.
This time she was not trying to touch the
World of Dreams, but she expected something much the same if it worked.

LoC Chp. 36 "The Amyrlin is raised"

Post by zed246
2. Maybe the FS are traveling in a completely different way (the way
Moghy pointed out?) and Rand had discovered another way to Travel
which, as said above, is quite scary-sounding.
3. Maybe for a woman to try it will make the worlld transform into a
red olive with a smily face on it (kids, don't try this at home).

Maybe Moghy wasn't lying and a woman would get lost in a strange vacuum
between the threads in the pattern.

Post by zed246
But the fact is, except for Moghy's reaction there is no evidence that
Traveling is hazardous. The FS are Traveling all the time (including
into Rhavin's throne room in TFOH - the best example I recall right
now).

Moghy doesn't say that travelling is hazardous. She says that it is
hazardous for a woman trying to Travel with the method employed by men.
Rand reaction in the other sense lead us to think that for a man it
would be hazardous to Travel as a woman does.

<snip paragraph about entering a gateway by the wrong end>

[zed246]

Wow, hadn't been that wrong when thought myself to be right for some
time...

Thanks for correcting.

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by zed246
Wow, hadn't been that wrong when thought myself to be right for some
time...

xDDDD

Post by zed246
Thanks for correcting.

You're welcome.

[Jamie Bowden]

Post by Elfseeker

Post by Eric Means
Why would you think Travelling is dangerous? Nobody ever so much as
implies that it is*.

Not correct. Somewhere along the line -someone- who knows how it's done
is making a good show of being afraid of the very idea. That it suddenly
became the equivalent to the taxi down on the corner was part of what
made me less than enthusiastic about continuing to read the series. But
for my nagging need to -know how it ends-, I'd have quit it ages ago.

You are wrong. Moghedien has that reaction when Egwene is asking about
gateways and asks if travelling works the way she thinks it does (which is
how male gateways work).

Jamie Bowden

[Rajiv Mote]

Eric Means wrote:
<SNIP>

Post by Eric Means
The open question for me (having just reread ACoS) is what Aviendha's
form of Traveling comprises. She states in ACoS that when she Travels
the way Egwene has taught her, she cannot make a gateway near as large
as Eg, despite being close in power. Later in the same book it is
stated by an AS that learning a second way to do the same thing is very
difficult, and never as efficient as the first way. It seems likely
that however Avi Traveled in Far Snows is different from Egwene's
method; the question is why this is (and whether RJ has plans to
clarify it).

I'm interested in this tidbit too. My own theory is that Aviendha has
a Talent for Traveling in the same way that the other girls have their
own Talents (Nynaeve and Healing, Egwene and Dreaming, Elayne and
dimples -- I mean ter'angreal-making). When she does it her own way,
she can Travel farther than others. And possibly, she'll be able to
open much larger gateways. Large enough to let armies through. Large
enough to slice through armies. Large enough to flood a
trolloc-infested valley. And so on.

-- Rajiv

[Emma]

Post by George Francis
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception
of 'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their
precise destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to
Travel this way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely
be considered the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

Do you read for comprehension? You cannot Travel from a location you
are
not familiar with.

Jamie Bowden

Thats just rude. There's so much stuff packed in these books that
forgetting the details of skimming and traveling would not be out of
place. Not everyone wants to study every detail of the giant book
series so lay off. Or maybe you're just smarter than eveyone else.

[Jamie Bowden]

Post by Emma

Post by Jamie Bowden
Do you read for comprehension? You cannot Travel from a location you
are not familiar with.

Thats just rude. There's so much stuff packed in these books that
forgetting the details of skimming and traveling would not be out of
place. Not everyone wants to study every detail of the giant book
series so lay off. Or maybe you're just smarter than eveyone else.

Sweetheart, I haven't begun to get rude yet. If you'd like an example,
keep up with the lack of attributions.

Jamie Bowden

[Tux Wonder-Dog]

Post by George Francis
The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.

<snip>

Post by George Francis
this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

Well, if he's the runt, other questions kick in. We know the Forsaken are
ruthless to each other and to their inferiors who they don't consider
human.

If the other Forsaken considered Asmodean a runt, I think he would've been
first in the cooking pot. They couldn't allow themselves to be threatenend
by a runt.

Wesley Parish

[Jason 'Warlocke' Lewis]

Post by George Francis
The Shadow Rising, chapter 58.
Rand is racing Asmodean to Rhuidean because they both want to get their
hands on the 'key' ter'angreal therein.
From Alcair Dal, Rand opens a doorway into blackness and starts running
across 'stone steps floating in blackness' on the way there he spies
Asmodean skimming along in the blackness on a silvery platform.
In later books, pretty much everyone (with the much-discussed exception of
'Tower' AS) knows how to Travel by simply opening a portal to their precise
destination. Is it possible that Asmodean never learned how to Travel this
way? For this and many other reasons, Asmodean must surely be considered
the 'runt' of the Forsaken litter...

Everyone knows that Bard is the weakest player class; 'nuff said.