KoD titles clever and misleading, but Dragon's Eggs? *spoiler*

[Aaron]

*spoiler space*
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Enough. This may not even be considered a spoiler, but just in case.

I greatly appreciate RJ's misleading titles for the book and several of
the chapters. Great stuff. KOD => Slayer, "A Plain Wooden Box" => Semi
will succeed in capturing Rand, Dragon's Eggs => something with
Elayne's babies. Very funny, RJ, you got me.

Then I thought about "Dragon's Eggs" a little further, and it doesn't
work for me. Why the hell would Aludra decide to name her cannonballs
"Dragon's Eggs?" Oh, I understand her explanation, but I thought that
Dragons were unfamiliar creatures to all but the Aiel, and now anyone
who has been close to Rand, and pretty much no one else. So, how does
Aludra know what a "dragon" is well enough to realize it is an
appropriate term to use here?

Not buying it.

-Aaron

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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<SNIP>

Post by Aaron
Then I thought about "Dragon's Eggs" a little further, and it doesn't
work for me. Why the hell would Aludra decide to name her cannonballs
"Dragon's Eggs?" Oh, I understand her explanation, but I thought that
Dragons were unfamiliar creatures to all but the Aiel, and now anyone
who has been close to Rand, and pretty much no one else. So, how does
Aludra know what a "dragon" is well enough to realize it is an
appropriate term to use here?
Not buying it.
-Aaron

Everybody knows about the creature on Rand's banner, and most probably
know he has similar creatures on his arms.

[Aaron]

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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<SNIP>

Post by Aaron
Then I thought about "Dragon's Eggs" a little further, and it doesn't
work for me. Why the hell would Aludra decide to name her cannonballs
"Dragon's Eggs?" Oh, I understand her explanation, but I thought that
Dragons were unfamiliar creatures to all but the Aiel, and now anyone
who has been close to Rand, and pretty much no one else. So, how does
Aludra know what a "dragon" is well enough to realize it is an
appropriate term to use here?
Not buying it.
-Aaron

Everybody knows about the creature on Rand's banner, and most probably
know he has similar creatures on his arms.

I'm not so sure that Aludra would know about them, and even if she did,
how much would she *really* know about them? After all, they're
fictional creatures and their teeth/ferocity isn't widely depicted,
since even the fiction about them is relatively confined to the Aiel
Waste.

I know, there is the "Dragon's Fang," but that's just a symbol, and all
poisonous snakes have fangs. Why would she expect a Dragon to be so
much more deadly if there are no tales about Dragons where she comes
from?

Seriously, I think it's much more likely she would have called them
"Viper's Eggs," or "Lionfish's eggs," than Dragon's Eggs, given the
obscurity of the reference.

-Aaron

[ModeratelyConfused]

Post by Aaron

Post by Rajiv Mote

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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<SNIP>

Post by Aaron
Then I thought about "Dragon's Eggs" a little further, and it doesn't
work for me. Why the hell would Aludra decide to name her cannonballs
"Dragon's Eggs?" Oh, I understand her explanation, but I thought that
Dragons were unfamiliar creatures to all but the Aiel, and now anyone
who has been close to Rand, and pretty much no one else. So, how does
Aludra know what a "dragon" is well enough to realize it is an
appropriate term to use here?
Not buying it.
-Aaron

Everybody knows about the creature on Rand's banner, and most probably
know he has similar creatures on his arms.

I'm not so sure that Aludra would know about them, and even if she did,
how much would she *really* know about them? After all, they're
fictional creatures and their teeth/ferocity isn't widely depicted,
since even the fiction about them is relatively confined to the Aiel
Waste.
I know, there is the "Dragon's Fang," but that's just a symbol, and all
poisonous snakes have fangs. Why would she expect a Dragon to be so
much more deadly if there are no tales about Dragons where she comes
from?
Seriously, I think it's much more likely she would have called them
"Viper's Eggs," or "Lionfish's eggs," than Dragon's Eggs, given the
obscurity of the reference.
-Aaron

Probably the same way we "know" of dragons. Fairytales, stories, etc.

MC

[David Chapman]

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by Aaron

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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Seriously, I think it's much more likely she would have called them
"Viper's Eggs," or "Lionfish's eggs," than Dragon's Eggs, given the
obscurity of the reference.

Probably the same way we "know" of dragons. Fairytales, stories, etc.

Except there *are* no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL, the only
things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the symbol on his banner.

[Frank van Schie]

Post by David Chapman

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by Aaron

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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Seriously, I think it's much more likely she would have called them
"Viper's Eggs," or "Lionfish's eggs," than Dragon's Eggs, given the
obscurity of the reference.

Probably the same way we "know" of dragons. Fairytales, stories, etc.

Except there *are* no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL, the only
things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the symbol on his banner.

So they just decided to conjure up a previously never-seen creature to
incorporate into his banner, rather than pick a known (even if
fictional) critter? That doesn't make sense. There have to be stories
about them, or they at least have to be part of Randland's mythology,
however repressed.

Of course, that doesn't mean Aludra should know about them necessarily,
and we haven't seen any current-day mentions of dragons (just of the
Dragon).

[Karan Juneja]

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by David Chapman

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by Aaron

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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Seriously, I think it's much more likely she would have called them
"Viper's Eggs," or "Lionfish's eggs," than Dragon's Eggs, given the
obscurity of the reference.

Probably the same way we "know" of dragons. Fairytales, stories, etc.

Except there *are* no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL, the
only things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the symbol on
his banner.

So they just decided to conjure up a previously never-seen creature to
incorporate into his banner, rather than pick a known (even if
fictional) critter? That doesn't make sense. There have to be stories
about them, or they at least have to be part of Randland's mythology,
however repressed.

"Dragon" is constantly referred to as capital 'D' dragon - a specific
thing. All things up until now point to "Dragon" being exclusively used
to reference LT, and the prophecies' "Dragon Reborn". If dragons were
common enough myth that Aludra knew of them _before_ the DR came around,
then wouldn't Rand know too? So why in tSR Ch34 (He Who Comes With The
Dawn" does he say

"Around his forearm wound a shape like that on the Dragon banner, a
sinuous golden-maned form scaled in scarlet and gold."

Clearly, here, he doesn't know what to call it, only 'a shape like that
on the Dragon banner'. Again, Capital D Dragon.

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by Karan Juneja

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by David Chapman

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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Probably the same way we "know" of dragons. Fairytales, stories, etc.

Except there *are* no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL, the
only things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the symbol on
his banner.

So they just decided to conjure up a previously never-seen creature to
incorporate into his banner, rather than pick a known (even if
fictional) critter? That doesn't make sense. There have to be stories
about them, or they at least have to be part of Randland's mythology,
however repressed.

"Dragon" is constantly referred to as capital 'D' dragon - a specific
thing. All things up until now point to "Dragon" being exclusively used
to reference LT, and the prophecies' "Dragon Reborn". If dragons were
common enough myth that Aludra knew of them _before_ the DR came around,
then wouldn't Rand know too? So why in tSR Ch34 (He Who Comes With The
Dawn" does he say

It seems likely to me that dragons existed in a previous age, but that
they were all slain. Naming the greatest hero of the age after
a fairytale seems odd to me. Perhaps Lews Therin was named after a good
dragon that killed all the Shadowspawn but was slain in the process.
If no dragons were left, then a human might need to be the Dragon.

-Bill E. Brooks

[Jeff Fullmer]

Post by Karan Juneja

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by Aaron

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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Seriously, I think it's much more likely she would have
called them "Viper's Eggs," or "Lionfish's eggs," than
Dragon's Eggs, given the obscurity of the reference.

Probably the same way we "know" of dragons. Fairytales,
stories, etc.

Except there are no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL,
the only things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the
symbol on his banner.

So they just decided to conjure up a previously never-seen creature
to incorporate into his banner, rather than pick a known (even if
fictional) critter? That doesn't make sense. There have to be
stories about them, or they at least have to be part of Randland's
mythology, however repressed.

"Dragon" is constantly referred to as capital 'D' dragon - a specific
thing. All things up until now point to "Dragon" being exclusively
used to reference LT, and the prophecies' "Dragon Reborn". If dragons
were common enough myth that Aludra knew of them before the DR came
around, then wouldn't Rand know too? So why in tSR Ch34 (He Who Comes
With The Dawn" does he say
"Around his forearm wound a shape like that on the Dragon banner, a
sinuous golden-maned form scaled in scarlet and gold."
Clearly, here, he doesn't know what to call it, only 'a shape like
that on the Dragon banner'. Again, Capital D Dragon.

It sounds better then:

"Around his forearm wound a dragon like that on the Dragon banner, a
dragon shaped golden-maned dragon scaled in scarlet and gold."

[David Chapman]

Post by Frank van Schie

Post by David Chapman
Except there *are* no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL, the
only things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the symbol on his
banner.

So they just decided to conjure up a previously never-seen creature to
incorporate into his banner, rather than pick a known (even if
fictional) critter?

Lews Therin Telamon did, it would seem. And let's face it - unless we want
to claim that dragons really did (or do) exist, *someone* had to invent the
myth of four-legged fire-breathing serpents. Why not him?

[Jasper Janssen]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:38:55 +0100, "David Chapman"

Post by David Chapman
Lews Therin Telamon did, it would seem. And let's face it - unless we want
to claim that dragons really did (or do) exist, *someone* had to invent the
myth of four-legged fire-breathing serpents. Why not him?

In a world where the Ogier and the Nym walk, why not dragons? They're just
big friggin' snakes, after all, they don't have wings and they don't spew
fire.

Jasper

[Jamie Bowden]

Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:38:55 +0100, "David Chapman"

Post by David Chapman
Lews Therin Telamon did, it would seem. And let's face it - unless we
want to claim that dragons really did (or do) exist, *someone* had to
invent the myth of four-legged fire-breathing serpents. Why not him?

In a world where the Ogier and the Nym walk, why not dragons? They're
just big friggin' snakes, after all, they don't have wings and they
don't spew fire.

We even see them in the Blight in the first book. We don't learn until
the fifth or sixth what they are. Lan calls them Worms, and one of the
Forsaken later note that they run wild in the Blight and will never mature
properly. Worm, wyrm, you figure it out.

Jamie Bowden

[Ryan Ward]

Post by Jamie Bowden

Post by Jasper Janssen
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:38:55 +0100, "David Chapman"

Post by David Chapman
Lews Therin Telamon did, it would seem. And let's face it - unless we
want to claim that dragons really did (or do) exist, *someone* had to
invent the myth of four-legged fire-breathing serpents. Why not him?

In a world where the Ogier and the Nym walk, why not dragons? They're
just big friggin' snakes, after all, they don't have wings and they
don't spew fire.

We even see them in the Blight in the first book. We don't learn until
the fifth or sixth what they are. Lan calls them Worms, and one of the
Forsaken later note that they run wild in the Blight and will never mature
properly. Worm, wyrm, you figure it out.

I thought that was RJ being cute and making a reference to Dune? Oh
well. Lord knows I've been wrong before.

- Ward

[Jasper Janssen]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 03:56:28 GMT, Ryan Ward

Post by Ryan Ward
I thought that was RJ being cute and making a reference to Dune? Oh
well. Lord knows I've been wrong before.

That's certainly what I thought at the time.

Jasper

[David Chapman]

Post by Jamie Bowden

Post by Jasper Janssen
In a world where the Ogier and the Nym walk, why not dragons? They're
just big friggin' snakes, after all, they don't have wings and they
don't spew fire.

We even see them in the Blight in the first book. We don't learn until
the fifth or sixth what they are. Lan calls them Worms, and one of the
Forsaken later note that they run wild in the Blight and will never mature
properly.

They also note what they will mature into.

[Jamie Bowden]

Post by David Chapman

Post by Jamie Bowden

Post by Jasper Janssen
In a world where the Ogier and the Nym walk, why not dragons? They're
just big friggin' snakes, after all, they don't have wings and they
don't spew fire.

We even see them in the Blight in the first book. We don't learn until
the fifth or sixth what they are. Lan calls them Worms, and one of the
Forsaken later note that they run wild in the Blight and will never mature
properly.

They also note what they will mature into.

Jumara, which is a meaningless word unless it has some mythical
connotation that I'm not privy to (which may very well be, Jordan loves
his randomreferences).

Jamie Bowden

[David Chapman]

Post by Jamie Bowden

Post by David Chapman

Post by Jamie Bowden

Post by Jasper Janssen
In a world where the Ogier and the Nym walk, why not dragons? They're
just big friggin' snakes, after all, they don't have wings and they
don't spew fire.

We even see them in the Blight in the first book. We don't learn until
the fifth or sixth what they are. Lan calls them Worms, and one of the
Forsaken later note that they run wild in the Blight and will never
mature properly.

They also note what they will mature into.

Jumara, which is a meaningless word unless it has some mythical
connotation that I'm not privy to (which may very well be, Jordan loves
his randomreferences).

Yes, but it means the Forsaken know all about them. Which makes it pretty
fucking unlikely that when LTT called himself Dragon in the AOL, nobody ever
turned around and said "Don't be stupid, that's a Jumara larva".

[Jamie Bowden]

<Dragons>

Post by David Chapman

Post by Jamie Bowden
Jumara, which is a meaningless word unless it has some mythical
connotation that I'm not privy to (which may very well be, Jordan
loves his randomreferences).

Yes, but it means the Forsaken know all about them. Which makes it
pretty fucking unlikely that when LTT called himself Dragon in the AOL,
nobody ever turned around and said "Don't be stupid, that's a Jumara
larva".

The larvae lack limbs, and they could very have been designed using an
asian dragon as a reference.

Jamie Bowden

[ModeratelyConfused]

Post by David Chapman

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by Aaron

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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.

Seriously, I think it's much more likely she would have called them
"Viper's Eggs," or "Lionfish's eggs," than Dragon's Eggs, given the
obscurity of the reference.

Probably the same way we "know" of dragons. Fairytales, stories, etc.

Except there *are* no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL, the only
things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the symbol on his banner.

Lets not forget that this is not a real story, that some things will just
have to be assumed. It's entirely possible in Randland that there are
books/stories that talk about dragons, and are just not mentioned in the
storyline.

MC

[Aaron]

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by David Chapman

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by Aaron

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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Seriously, I think it's much more likely she would have called them
"Viper's Eggs," or "Lionfish's eggs," than Dragon's Eggs, given the
obscurity of the reference.

Probably the same way we "know" of dragons. Fairytales, stories, etc.

Except there *are* no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL, the only
things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the symbol on his banner.

Lets not forget that this is not a real story, that some things will just
have to be assumed. It's entirely possible in Randland that there are
books/stories that talk about dragons, and are just not mentioned in the
storyline.

We don't have to assume. As was mentioned by another person, in this
same thread, the reaction of Rand and others to the term "Dragon" is as
if they have no idea what such a creature is like. He doesn't even name
the creatures on his arms as "dragons" right off, which I think is
stupid, but there it is.

Your argument about the banner is moot. The original dragon banner
already existed. Others are copying it. They don't have to know what a
"dragon" is like to reproduce the banner.

One argument against me, that is stronger than all raised so far (being
the only one that actually seems to contradict me), is the "dragon" on
the inn in Tear, "The Dragon," at the end of Rand's first group of
chapters. They put some fierce teeth and claws on that one, Rand notes,
which differs from the ones on his arms. So, perhaps there is precedent
for Randlanders assuming "dragons" are pretty fearsome, toothy
creatures.

-Aaron

Post by ModeratelyConfused
MC

[Eric Means]

Post by Aaron
One argument against me, that is stronger than all raised so far (being
the only one that actually seems to contradict me), is the "dragon" on
the inn in Tear, "The Dragon," at the end of Rand's first group of
chapters. They put some fierce teeth and claws on that one, Rand notes,
which differs from the ones on his arms. So, perhaps there is precedent
for Randlanders assuming "dragons" are pretty fearsome, toothy
creatures.

It seems likely to me that, since Tear has had Dragon banners flying
over it for quite some time now, that the innkeep had the (not
surprising) idea to copy the image for an Inn (quite possibly in hopes
of currying favor with Rand's supporters, if not Rand himself).
Obviously he/she embellished it a bit, but large teeth and claws are
hardly much of a leap for anyone, and the wings can easily enough be
suggested by the fact that those banners are up there, waving in the
wind.

[David Chapman]

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by David Chapman
Except there *are* no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL, the
only things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the symbol on his
banner.

Lets not forget that this is not a real story, that some things will just
have to be assumed. It's entirely possible in Randland that there are
books/stories that talk about dragons, and are just not mentioned in the
storyline.

No, it's not. It has been explicitly stated that nobody had even heard of a
Dragon until LTT took the name.

[ModeratelyConfused]

Post by David Chapman

Post by ModeratelyConfused

Post by David Chapman
Except there *are* no such stories in Randland. Even in the AOL, the
only things ever identified as the Dragon were LTT and the symbol on his
banner.

Lets not forget that this is not a real story, that some things will just
have to be assumed. It's entirely possible in Randland that there are
books/stories that talk about dragons, and are just not mentioned in the
storyline.

No, it's not. It has been explicitly stated that nobody had even heard of
a Dragon until LTT took the name.

Okay, didn't remember that part.

MC

[c***@hotmail.com]

Post by David Chapman
It has been explicitly stated that nobody had even heard of a
Dragon until LTT took the name.

That's true, though it's based on very sketchy knowledge - how do we,
from the vantage point of the 3rd Age, know what AoLers knew? Even if
some of the Forsaken didn't know, that doesn't mean no one had heard of
them. Possibly there were old dusty legends of dragons that Lews Therin
drew on - remnants of remnants of stories from an age like ours, for
example - like Verin and other Browns know vague remnants of stories
about Portal Stones.

However, this thread is missing the point, if you all think Aludra
needed to know about fire-breathing dragons to come up with the name
"dragon eggs."

Before coining the name "dragons' eggs" she *first* came up with the
name "dragon" for the lofting tubes (KoD p. 215) that fire them
(Heh...which came first, the dragon or the egg? In this case,
definitely the dragon). She says the Seanchan will howl when her
dragons bite. Though she doesn't say it directly, I'm sure she chose
"dragon" as the name for the tube, not b/c of any legend about
firebreathing monsters, but b/c of the only Dragon anyone knows about -
the Dragon Reborn. Consider that the Dragon Reborn and the Seanchan
have been enemies so far. Aludra doesn't know that Rand's trying for a
truce, but everyone knows (presumably) that the only losses the
Seanchan have had were to the DR at Falme and the DR's forces in
Illian. So, she coins a name to make the Seanchan fear, and to express
her hopes/confidence that her devices will make the Seanchan pay. So
she chose the only force that's been able to hurt the Seanchan.
Seanchan aren't afraid of vipers or lionfish, but the Dragon
Reborn...that's different.

"Dragon's eggs" is presumably because of the shape both of the tubes
and of the projectiles, nothing else.

-chaplainchris

[David Chapman]

Post by c***@hotmail.com

Post by David Chapman
It has been explicitly stated that nobody had even heard of a
Dragon until LTT took the name.

That's true, though it's based on very sketchy knowledge - how do we,
from the vantage point of the 3rd Age, know what AoLers knew?

In this particular instance, I think it's in the Guide.

[Oliver Daniels]

C'mon guys. Rand has raised the Dragon banner all over the bleedin'
place. Tear, Ilian, Cairhien, Andor. Toman Head. Thousands of people
have seen it by now - and know it's referred to as the Dragon Banner. A
central theme in WoT is communication. How news spreads, how rumours
fly, how legends are born. On a thousand pigeons and via a million
tongues, that's how. (Remember how the early books used to end? Back
when this series truly was great? If you don't, go back and read the
epilogue to TSH or TDR.) So it's really no mystery at all that Aludra
has heard the name, seen the icon, and chosen to appropriate the word
'dragon' for her artillery. In fact, it's inevitable she would have.
Which is precisely RJ's point.

Oliver

[Daniel Holm]

Post by Oliver Daniels
C'mon guys. Rand has raised the Dragon banner all over the bleedin'
place. Tear, Ilian, Cairhien, Andor. Toman Head. Thousands of people
have seen it by now - and know it's referred to as the Dragon Banner. A
central theme in WoT is communication. How news spreads, how rumours
fly, how legends are born. On a thousand pigeons and via a million
tongues, that's how. (Remember how the early books used to end? Back
when this series truly was great? If you don't, go back and read the
epilogue to TSH or TDR.) So it's really no mystery at all that Aludra
has heard the name, seen the icon, and chosen to appropriate the word
'dragon' for her artillery. In fact, it's inevitable she would have.
Which is precisely RJ's point.

Has anyone thought of the possibility that _Rand_ will be the
inspiration to our modern-day legends of dragons (that is, in WOT)? The
Dragon banner is just the most "visual" representation of the Dragon
that has survived to our Age, which has been twisted enough through
time to become _the_ representation.
Aludra's cannons are simply the precursor to this.

--Daniel Holm

[Aaron]

Post by Oliver Daniels
C'mon guys. Rand has raised the Dragon banner all over the bleedin'
place. Tear, Ilian, Cairhien, Andor. Toman Head. Thousands of people
have seen it by now - and know it's referred to as the Dragon Banner. A
central theme in WoT is communication. How news spreads, how rumours
fly, how legends are born. On a thousand pigeons and via a million
tongues, that's how. (Remember how the early books used to end? Back
when this series truly was great? If you don't, go back and read the
epilogue to TSH or TDR.) So it's really no mystery at all that Aludra
has heard the name, seen the icon, and chosen to appropriate the word
'dragon' for her artillery. In fact, it's inevitable she would have.
Which is precisely RJ's point.
Oliver

No, it's certainly not "inevitable." She doesn't know Rand from Adam,
and she didn't even know Mat was a friend of Rand until after she named
them "Dragon's Eggs." I'm with Chapman, who agreed with me: this was a
mistake, and if RJ was thinking, he would realize Aludra would be far
more likely to name the cannonballs any number of other things before
"Dragon's Eggs."

-Aaron

[Oliver Daniels]

Post by Aaron
No, it's certainly not "inevitable." She doesn't know Rand from Adam,
and she didn't even know Mat was a friend of Rand until after she named
them "Dragon's Eggs." I'm with Chapman, who agreed with me: this was a
mistake, and if RJ was thinking, he would realize Aludra would be far
more likely to name the cannonballs any number of other things before
"Dragon's Eggs."
-Aaron

Well there's a surprise. You're with Chapman... who agreed with you.
Tautology anyone?

Ok, so I should have said that it was *almost* inevitable Aludra would
have seen the Dragon banner somewhere on her travels. And I certainly
shouldn't have said it was inevitable she would name her cannonballs
Dragon's Eggs. But neither is it far more likely she'd name them any
number of other things first. That's almost as bad as me saying
inevitable in the first place.

Anyway, this is fast become one of those nit-picking 'discussions' I
despise. The point I wanted to make was about the dissemination of
(mis)information and how that's a central theme in WoT.

Oliver

[Oliver Daniels]

Post by Aaron
No, it's certainly not "inevitable." She doesn't know Rand from Adam,
and she didn't even know Mat was a friend of Rand until after she named
them "Dragon's Eggs." I'm with Chapman, who agreed with me: this was a
mistake, and if RJ was thinking, he would realize Aludra would be far
more likely to name the cannonballs any number of other things before
"Dragon's Eggs."
-Aaron

Well there's a surprise. You're with Chapman... who agreed with you.
Tautology anyone?

Ok, so I should have said it was *almost* inevitable Aludra would've
seen the Dragon Banner on her travels. And I shouldn't have said it was
inevitable she'd name her cannonballs 'Dragon's Eggs'. But neither is
it far more likely she'd name them any number of other things. That's
as unsupportable as me saying 'inevitable'.

Anyway this is fast descending into one of those nit-picking and
ultimately pointless discussions that are so prevalent in this group,
which I despise. You'll believe what you want to believe and the same
goes for me.

The point I really wanted to make was about the dissemination of
information (and misinformation) being a central theme in WoT.

Oliver

[Rajiv Mote]

Post by Aaron

Post by Rajiv Mote
Everybody knows about the creature on Rand's banner, and most probably
know he has similar creatures on his arms.

I'm not so sure that Aludra would know about them, and even if she did,
how much would she *really* know about them? After all, they're
fictional creatures and their teeth/ferocity isn't widely depicted,
since even the fiction about them is relatively confined to the Aiel
Waste.

Well whatever it once was, the sinuous creature on the Dragon Banner
and on the Asha'man pins is now commonly known as a "dragon." Other
examples exist, but witness:

Knife of Dreams, "To Make an Anchor Weep"
"The high collar of his black coat held a silver pin in the shape of a
sword on one side, and on the other a red-and-gold pin shaped like one
of the creatures that entwined the Coramoor's forearms. A dragon.
Yes, that was what it was called."

The Dragon has a nameless creature on his banner. With the banners,
pins, tattoos that'll get you stabbed by Aiel, etc. becoming
widespread, people start calling the nameless creature a "dragon."
Artists taking liberties start making variations on the "dragon" (what
we know as an Oriental dragon gets modified into a European dragon in
Illian). And voila. "Dragon" becomes a generic fictional creature,
open to artist interpretation.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Aaron
*spoiler space*
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Enough. This may not even be considered a spoiler, but just in case.
I greatly appreciate RJ's misleading titles for the book and several of
the chapters. Great stuff. KOD => Slayer, "A Plain Wooden Box" => Semi
will succeed in capturing Rand, Dragon's Eggs => something with
Elayne's babies. Very funny, RJ, you got me.
Then I thought about "Dragon's Eggs" a little further, and it doesn't
work for me. Why the hell would Aludra decide to name her cannonballs
"Dragon's Eggs?" Oh, I understand her explanation, but I thought that
Dragons were unfamiliar creatures to all but the Aiel, and now anyone
who has been close to Rand, and pretty much no one else. So, how does
Aludra know what a "dragon" is well enough to realize it is an
appropriate term to use here?

Most misleading chapter title: Chapter 36 of the Gathering Storm: The Death
of Tuon: Page 550. Tuon did not die.