Mat and Tuon Spoilers

[Emma]

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSpoiler
space


So while reading the book I pretty much figured that Mat and Tuon were
going to finally get hitched. What kept plagueing me is why Tuon would
marry Mat. She didn't seem to love, maybe be intrigued a little by him
but hardly enough to constitute marriage. Mat accidentally did his
part. I can accept that but then she finishes the ceremony and with a
really weak reason. She says she finishes it because he was the one in
the prophecy so the only reason she did it was because of the prophecy.
It just seems dumb for the prophecy to be the cause. Prophecies
should happen regardless of whether they are spoken or not otherwise
its not a true prophecy. Right now it seems that if she did not
recieve the prophecy she would never have married him. It seems like
poor plot planning to me. Did anyone else see the same thing?

[MkB]

no, it seems to me she actually likes him. The point of the story is
that the wheel finds a way to make things happen. If she didnt hear get
the information from the teller, she would of found some set of
circumstance that would have forced the two together.

[Will Frank]

Post by Emma
It just seems dumb for the prophecy to be the cause. Prophecies
should happen regardless of whether they are spoken or not otherwise
its not a true prophecy. Right now it seems that if she did not
recieve the prophecy she would never have married him. It seems like
poor plot planning to me. Did anyone else see the same thing?

Um, no. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, of a sort. The effect of
prophecy usually depends on the person in question finding out what it
will say (see the Oedipus story). This is actually an interesting way of
doing it: "Because you trust prophecy, and believe it to be correct, you
will fulfill the prophecies you understand." Mat's been running with that
for a while--remember Rhuidean?

A good example would be the /Matrix/ Oracle, who adjusted everything she
said to Neo to account for his disbelief in prophecy.

- --
Will "scifantasy" Frank - ***@stwing.upenn.edu
"It was the year when they finally immanentized the Eschaton."
- --Narrator, _Illuminatus!_

[shemmy]

Post by Emma
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSpoiler
space
So while reading the book I pretty much figured that Mat and Tuon were
going to finally get hitched. What kept plagueing me is why Tuon would
marry Mat. She didn't seem to love, maybe be intrigued a little by him
but hardly enough to constitute marriage. Mat accidentally did his
part. I can accept that but then she finishes the ceremony and with a
really weak reason. She says she finishes it because he was the one in
the prophecy so the only reason she did it was because of the prophecy.
It just seems dumb for the prophecy to be the cause. Prophecies
should happen regardless of whether they are spoken or not otherwise
its not a true prophecy. Right now it seems that if she did not
recieve the prophecy she would never have married him. It seems like
poor plot planning to me. Did anyone else see the same thing?

it's been speculated that tuon might have an ability similar to mins;
think of all that staring into space and looking askance at people she
does as if she can see auras, too. if she can then the damane
fortelling could have been confirmed by her own abilities. and if
there's one thing you can say about tuon, it's that she has belief in
her own abilities.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by shemmy

Post by Emma
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSpoiler
space
So while reading the book I pretty much figured that Mat and Tuon were
going to finally get hitched. What kept plagueing me is why Tuon would
marry Mat. She didn't seem to love, maybe be intrigued a little by him
but hardly enough to constitute marriage. Mat accidentally did his
part. I can accept that but then she finishes the ceremony and with a
really weak reason. She says she finishes it because he was the one in
the prophecy so the only reason she did it was because of the prophecy.
It just seems dumb for the prophecy to be the cause. Prophecies
should happen regardless of whether they are spoken or not otherwise
its not a true prophecy. Right now it seems that if she did not
recieve the prophecy she would never have married him. It seems like
poor plot planning to me. Did anyone else see the same thing?

it's been speculated that tuon might have an ability similar to mins;
think of all that staring into space and looking askance at people she
does as if she can see auras, too. if she can then the damane
fortelling could have been confirmed by her own abilities. and if
there's one thing you can say about tuon, it's that she has belief in
her own abilities.

Tuon can channel (she tested for sul'dam and passed, and trains sul'dam). Will we see her firing fireballs from the back of a Raken during the Last Battle?

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 07 Dec 2005 01:07:10 -0800 -
there was this guy, or something, called Tim Bruening
<***@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, and they made us all feel better by
saying the following stuff:


<spoiler space>

.

.
.

.

.

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by shemmy
it's been speculated that tuon might have an ability similar to mins;
think of all that staring into space and looking askance at people she
does as if she can see auras, too. if she can then the damane
fortelling could have been confirmed by her own abilities. and if
there's one thing you can say about tuon, it's that she has belief in
her own abilities.

If she could see auras and images around people, I would have expected
to see some evidence of it during the sections of the story that were
told from her point of view.

On the other hand, those sections *did* make me a little bit less
annoyed at her, so they weren't a complete waste of time.

Post by Tim Bruening
Tuon can channel (she tested for sul'dam and passed, and trains sul'dam).
Will we see her firing fireballs from the back of a Raken during the Last Battle?

Hope so.

Maybe shortly after she has sat down with Aludra and Mat and a pile of
parchments and a crayon, and explained, using diagrams, exactly what
metal tubes and fireworks can be used for. Because wily ol' Mat's just
not cracking the case.




C&J

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 07 Dec 2005 01:07:10 -0800 -
there was this guy, or something, called Tim Bruening
<spoiler space>
.
.
.
.
.

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by shemmy
it's been speculated that tuon might have an ability similar to mins;
think of all that staring into space and looking askance at people she
does as if she can see auras, too. if she can then the damane
fortelling could have been confirmed by her own abilities. and if
there's one thing you can say about tuon, it's that she has belief in
her own abilities.

If she could see auras and images around people, I would have expected
to see some evidence of it during the sections of the story that were
told from her point of view.
On the other hand, those sections *did* make me a little bit less
annoyed at her, so they weren't a complete waste of time.

Post by Tim Bruening
Tuon can channel (she tested for sul'dam and passed, and trains sul'dam).
Will we see her firing fireballs from the back of a Raken during the Last Battle?

Hope so.
Maybe shortly after she has sat down with Aludra and Mat and a pile of
parchments and a crayon, and explained, using diagrams, exactly what
metal tubes and fireworks can be used for. Because wily ol' Mat's just
not cracking the case.

I seem to remember Aludra talking about firing large fireworks at the Seanchan.

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:29:49 -0800 -
there was this guy, or something, called Tim Bruening

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Chucky & Janica
<spoiler space>
.
.
.
.
.
Maybe shortly after she has sat down with Aludra and Mat and a pile of
parchments and a crayon, and explained, using diagrams, exactly what
metal tubes and fireworks can be used for. Because wily ol' Mat's just
not cracking the case.

I seem to remember Aludra talking about firing large fireworks at the Seanchan.

Yep. I also seem to recall Mat taking an embarrassingly long time to
get what the hell she was talking about, even when she drew him
pictures and used little bitty words.




C&J

[dwn]

Post by Emma
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSpoiler
space
So while reading the book I pretty much figured that Mat and Tuon were
going to finally get hitched. What kept plagueing me is why Tuon would
marry Mat. She didn't seem to love, maybe be intrigued a little by him
but hardly enough to constitute marriage. Mat accidentally did his
part. I can accept that but then she finishes the ceremony and with a
really weak reason. She says she finishes it because he was the one in
the prophecy so the only reason she did it was because of the prophecy.
It just seems dumb for the prophecy to be the cause. Prophecies
should happen regardless of whether they are spoken or not otherwise
its not a true prophecy. Right now it seems that if she did not
recieve the prophecy she would never have married him. It seems like
poor plot planning to me. Did anyone else see the same thing?

No, I think it worked, but it was pretty subtle. There were several
reasons why she went through with the whole thing:

1) The prophecy. Seanchan place a lot of meaning into omens, so a
fortelling likely ranks pretty high too. From Tuon's POV, she always
seemed more concerned with making sure that Mat was really the one than
whether she actually wanted to marry him or not. Noal also quotes a
passage about Mat from the Prophesies of the Dragon (COT, A Cluster of
Rosebuds).

2) Mat is obviously exceptional (aside from the prophecies). He has
his own army, grew up with the Dragon Reborn, is a very capable
military strategist, etc. All these would make the marriage a good
politcal bet. Now, he owes a great deal to blind luck most of the time
(like referring to Selucia as Tuon's shadow), but Tuon doesn't know
that.

3) She actually does like him. Someone in another thread noted that
Tuon was very careful with her silk rosebuds while packing (KOD, Under
an Oak). She was also very quick to snap "she cannot have him," and
needed a moment to recover when Teslyn warned mat about Joline (KOD, A
Plain Wooden Box). There are many other examples, all subtle. Tuon
has spent a good bit of time practicing her "hanging magistrate" look
(WH, What a Veil Hides) since she looked too much like a mischievous
child otherwise. Her reactions are therefore often purposefully
concealed.

-- dwn

[Donald S. Crankshaw]

Post by dwn
2) Mat is obviously exceptional (aside from the prophecies). He has
his own army, grew up with the Dragon Reborn, is a very capable
military strategist, etc. All these would make the marriage a good
politcal bet. Now, he owes a great deal to blind luck most of the time
(like referring to Selucia as Tuon's shadow), but Tuon doesn't know
that.

Ah, but blind luck's what he's best at. I consider Mat's luck on a par
with Perrin's wolfbrotherhood or Rand's channeling, although others here
have disagreed with me. I think he'd have it even if he weren't
ta'veren. He's also a superb fighter, which Tuon notices when he takes
on seven or eight attackers with just knives.

-Donald S. Crankshaw

[Davian]

Post by Donald S. Crankshaw

Post by dwn
2) Mat is obviously exceptional (aside from the prophecies). He has
his own army, grew up with the Dragon Reborn, is a very capable
military strategist, etc. All these would make the marriage a good
politcal bet. Now, he owes a great deal to blind luck most of the time
(like referring to Selucia as Tuon's shadow), but Tuon doesn't know
that.

Ah, but blind luck's what he's best at. I consider Mat's luck on a par
with Perrin's wolfbrotherhood or Rand's channeling, although others here
have disagreed with me. I think he'd have it even if he weren't
ta'veren.

I doubt that. At one point during the series, Mat thinks to himself that he
doesn't remember being especially lucky at any time until he obtained the ruby
dagger. (Which would be only a short time after he became ta'veren.) It's
very likely that if it was not for the chance altering effects of ta'veren,
Mat would have remained pretty ordinary.

Post by Donald S. Crankshaw
He's also a superb fighter, which Tuon notices when he takes
on seven or eight attackers with just knives.

[leopard]

Mat and Tuon's is by far my favorite relationship in the series. (Rand
and Avi's was pretty good back in the day) They are two people who on
the surface have nothing in common and would never willingly consort
with the other person. But who are in actuality near perfect for each
other. The ironic thing is it took the prophecies to make both
originally interested in the other one. Mat was never interested at
all in Tuon before learning she was his prophecised wife. Aside from
wondering why she kept staring at him. And Tuon obviously would never
have taken any interest in Mat if he hadn't started resembling her own
prophecy. The prophecies got each one's foot in the door so to speak,
and the rest is history. (or future, damn spinning wheel)

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:19:22 -0500 - there
was this guy, or something, called "Davian"

Post by Davian

Post by Donald S. Crankshaw
Ah, but blind luck's what he's best at. I consider Mat's luck on a par
with Perrin's wolfbrotherhood or Rand's channeling, although others here
have disagreed with me. I think he'd have it even if he weren't
ta'veren.

I doubt that. At one point during the series, Mat thinks to himself that he
doesn't remember being especially lucky at any time until he obtained the ruby
dagger. (Which would be only a short time after he became ta'veren.) It's
very likely that if it was not for the chance altering effects of ta'veren,
Mat would have remained pretty ordinary.

So he 'became' ta'veren at some point, did he?

The main reason I had for thinking Mat's luck was something brought on
in the course of the first few books was, we don't know whether
ta'veren is something that is with you from birth (the only ta'veren
baby we know much about is Rand, and he would be a special case
because he's the Dragon), or whether it, like channeling, is something
that develops at a certain age.

If so, it's an amazing coincidence. Maybe you only begin having an
effect on the Pattern when you are becoming an adult, because adults
by their very nature affect the world around them a little more
consciously than children do (although children certainly affect
adults and their actions, so this is dubious). But it's strange.
Perrin seemed to only start becoming a wolfbrother at a certain point,
the reasons for it don't seem to be linked to anything and "puberty"
seems like a copout because we don't know much about it. We have Noam
and Elyas to compare him with. Not a great control group.

My thought was, Mat was saidarred ferociously by the Aes Sedai during
his Shadar Logoth detox diet. Then, at some point around there, Selene
(Lanfear) turned up in his room and poked him with something shaped
like six dice linked at the corners.

Maybe I just invented that bit, but I do seem to recall it. It was
after this that Mat began to hear the dice, and began to do
extraordinarily lucky things all the time. If Lanfear and the
dice-object had nothing to do with that, then it had nothing to do
with anything. And although Jordan is known for having scenes,
characters and objects that have nothing to do with anything (his
writing is amazingly realistic in that regard), I like to think he was
planning some sort of connection.





C&J

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:19:22 -0500 - there
was this guy, or something, called "Davian"

Post by Davian

Post by Donald S. Crankshaw
Ah, but blind luck's what he's best at. I consider Mat's luck on a par
with Perrin's wolfbrotherhood or Rand's channeling, although others here
have disagreed with me. I think he'd have it even if he weren't
ta'veren.

I doubt that. At one point during the series, Mat thinks to himself that he
doesn't remember being especially lucky at any time until he obtained the ruby
dagger. (Which would be only a short time after he became ta'veren.) It's
very likely that if it was not for the chance altering effects of ta'veren,
Mat would have remained pretty ordinary.

So he 'became' ta'veren at some point, did he?
The main reason I had for thinking Mat's luck was something brought on
in the course of the first few books was, we don't know whether
ta'veren is something that is with you from birth (the only ta'veren
baby we know much about is Rand, and he would be a special case
because he's the Dragon), or whether it, like channeling, is something
that develops at a certain age.
If so, it's an amazing coincidence. Maybe you only begin having an
effect on the Pattern when you are becoming an adult, because adults
by their very nature affect the world around them a little more
consciously than children do (although children certainly affect
adults and their actions, so this is dubious). But it's strange.
Perrin seemed to only start becoming a wolfbrother at a certain point,
the reasons for it don't seem to be linked to anything

IIRC, Elyas told Perrin that he (Perrin) had the ability, the wolves
seemed able to sense his intentions, and the changes started right
after that. So, how was it not "linked to anything?"

When did Mat exhibit the first indication that he was ta'veren? Was it
before or after Moiraine indicated that he was one? I don't have the
books with me right now. Didn't she say they all were ta'veren in
TEOTW?

Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J

-Aaron

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 7 Dec 2005 07:14:03 -0800 - there was

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica
The main reason I had for thinking Mat's luck was something brought on
in the course of the first few books was, we don't know whether
ta'veren is something that is with you from birth (the only ta'veren
baby we know much about is Rand, and he would be a special case
because he's the Dragon), or whether it, like channeling, is something
that develops at a certain age.
If so, it's an amazing coincidence. Maybe you only begin having an
effect on the Pattern when you are becoming an adult, because adults
by their very nature affect the world around them a little more
consciously than children do (although children certainly affect
adults and their actions, so this is dubious). But it's strange.
Perrin seemed to only start becoming a wolfbrother at a certain point,
the reasons for it don't seem to be linked to anything

IIRC, Elyas told Perrin that he (Perrin) had the ability, the wolves
seemed able to sense his intentions, and the changes started right
after that. So, how was it not "linked to anything?"

Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Post by Aaron
When did Mat exhibit the first indication that he was ta'veren? Was it
before or after Moiraine indicated that he was one? I don't have the
books with me right now. Didn't she say they all were ta'veren in
TEOTW?

That, I'm not sure about.

But Mat's luck doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his being
a ta'veren. He might be falsely linking his luck with his inability to
stay out of trouble, the fights he gets in, and so on. Yes, his "luck"
might get him out of those, as it helps him win in dice games. But
dice and battle don't have much in common, and he's said already that
his luck doesn't hold to all things. Just random chance.




C&J

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica
If so, it's an amazing coincidence. Maybe you only begin having an
effect on the Pattern when you are becoming an adult, because adults
by their very nature affect the world around them a little more
consciously than children do (although children certainly affect
adults and their actions, so this is dubious). But it's strange.
Perrin seemed to only start becoming a wolfbrother at a certain point,
the reasons for it don't seem to be linked to anything

IIRC, Elyas told Perrin that he (Perrin) had the ability, the wolves
seemed able to sense his intentions, and the changes started right
after that. So, how was it not "linked to anything?"

Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Contact with another wolfbrother? I thought I was stating that
supposition clearly enough in my last post. Since the ability awakened
when he was with Elyas, I don't consider it to be random at all.

Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J

-Aaron

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 8 Dec 2005 11:40:41 -0800 - there was

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica
Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Contact with another wolfbrother? I thought I was stating that
supposition clearly enough in my last post. Since the ability awakened
when he was with Elyas, I don't consider it to be random at all.

Generated by contact with another wolfbrother?

Fine, but Perrin would still need to be susceptible to it. Not
everybody to ever meet Elyas becomes a wolfbrother.




C&J

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 8 Dec 2005 11:40:41 -0800 - there was

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica
Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Contact with another wolfbrother? I thought I was stating that
supposition clearly enough in my last post. Since the ability awakened
when he was with Elyas, I don't consider it to be random at all.

Generated by contact with another wolfbrother?
Fine, but Perrin would still need to be susceptible to it. Not
everybody to ever meet Elyas becomes a wolfbrother.

Is this even an argument against what I've been saying? Of *course*
Perrin is susceptible to it, while most Randlanders aren't. You
intimated that the triggering of Perrin's "wolfbrotherness" was random,
and I think we now agree that, in *Perrin's* case, it was probably
triggered by Elyas and the wolves that were with him. Glad we could
agree on this with me only stating the same thing 3 different ways.
It's an improvement ;P

Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J

-Aaron

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 12 Dec 2005 05:44:26 -0800 - there was

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica
Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Contact with another wolfbrother? I thought I was stating that
supposition clearly enough in my last post. Since the ability awakened
when he was with Elyas, I don't consider it to be random at all.

Generated by contact with another wolfbrother?
Fine, but Perrin would still need to be susceptible to it. Not
everybody to ever meet Elyas becomes a wolfbrother.

Is this even an argument against what I've been saying?

It must be.

Post by Aaron
Of *course*
Perrin is susceptible to it, while most Randlanders aren't.

So he was susceptible to it since birth?

Where did it come from all of a sudden? Same place as Min's viewings
and the ta'verens and Rand being able to channel?

Post by Aaron
You
intimated that the triggering of Perrin's "wolfbrotherness" was random,
and I think we now agree that, in *Perrin's* case, it was probably
triggered by Elyas and the wolves that were with him.

No, I don't think that at all. I think that's silly.

It had to be there already in order to be brought into full activity.
Which lands us back at the trait being in him since early childhood,
birth, or ... I still don't care.




C&J

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica
If so, it's an amazing coincidence. Maybe you only begin having an
effect on the Pattern when you are becoming an adult, because adults
by their very nature affect the world around them a little more
consciously than children do (although children certainly affect
adults and their actions, so this is dubious). But it's strange.
Perrin seemed to only start becoming a wolfbrother at a certain point,
the reasons for it don't seem to be linked to anything

IIRC, Elyas told Perrin that he (Perrin) had the ability, the wolves
seemed able to sense his intentions, and the changes started right
after that. So, how was it not "linked to anything?"

Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Contact with another wolfbrother? I thought I was stating that
supposition clearly enough in my last post. Since the ability awakened
when he was with Elyas, I don't consider it to be random at all.

Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J

-Aaron

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica
If so, it's an amazing coincidence. Maybe you only begin having an
effect on the Pattern when you are becoming an adult, because adults
by their very nature affect the world around them a little more
consciously than children do (although children certainly affect
adults and their actions, so this is dubious). But it's strange.
Perrin seemed to only start becoming a wolfbrother at a certain point,
the reasons for it don't seem to be linked to anything

IIRC, Elyas told Perrin that he (Perrin) had the ability, the wolves
seemed able to sense his intentions, and the changes started right
after that. So, how was it not "linked to anything?"

Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Contact with another wolfbrother? I thought I was stating that
supposition clearly enough in my last post. Since the ability awakened
when he was with Elyas, I don't consider it to be random at all.

Elyas somehow triggered Perrin's transformation?

[Brinner]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 7 Dec 2005 07:14:03 -0800 - there was

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky & Janica
The main reason I had for thinking Mat's luck was something brought on
in the course of the first few books was, we don't know whether
ta'veren is something that is with you from birth (the only ta'veren
baby we know much about is Rand, and he would be a special case
because he's the Dragon), or whether it, like channeling, is something
that develops at a certain age.
If so, it's an amazing coincidence. Maybe you only begin having an
effect on the Pattern when you are becoming an adult, because adults
by their very nature affect the world around them a little more
consciously than children do (although children certainly affect
adults and their actions, so this is dubious). But it's strange.
Perrin seemed to only start becoming a wolfbrother at a certain point,
the reasons for it don't seem to be linked to anything

IIRC, Elyas told Perrin that he (Perrin) had the ability, the wolves
seemed able to sense his intentions, and the changes started right
after that. So, how was it not "linked to anything?"

Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Generated by sitting around with wolves, wouldn't you think?

Brinner

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 8 Dec 2005 20:23:45 -0800 - there was

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica
Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Generated by sitting around with wolves, wouldn't you think?

No, I wouldn't.

But you can if you want *smile*




C&J

[Brinner]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 8 Dec 2005 20:23:45 -0800 - there was

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica
Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Generated by sitting around with wolves, wouldn't you think?

No, I wouldn't.

Well fucking start thinking for a change.

Post by Chucky & Janica
But you can if you want *smile*

Smarmy cunt.

Brinner

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 12 Dec 2005 04:29:25 -0800 - there was

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica
Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Generated by sitting around with wolves, wouldn't you think?

No, I wouldn't.

Well fucking start thinking for a change.

I was thinking. I was thinking, "hello, I wonder if Perrin has ever
seen a wolf before." And then I thought, "he lives in a farm town
whose major produce is apples and sheep. He has probably seen a wolf
before." And I finished off by thinking, "what a twat that Brinner guy
is" for perhaps half an hour before bed.

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica
But you can if you want *smile*

Smarmy cunt.

Guilty.




C&J

[Brinner]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 12 Dec 2005 04:29:25 -0800 - there was

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica
Because the wolves' ability to sense his intentions came out of
nowhere. Perrin lived in a remote farm village all his life. This was
probably not the first time he came into contact with wolves. If it
had been with him all his life, it would have shown up already.
Otherwise, it was a new development, generated by ... what?

Generated by sitting around with wolves, wouldn't you think?

No, I wouldn't.

Well fucking start thinking for a change.

I was thinking. I was thinking, "hello, I wonder if Perrin has ever
seen a wolf before." And then I thought, "he lives in a farm town
whose major produce is apples and sheep. He has probably seen a wolf
before." And I finished off by thinking, "what a twat that Brinner guy
is" for perhaps half an hour before bed.

How does Janica feel about you thinking about me just before you 2 go
to bed?

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica
But you can if you want *smile*

Smarmy cunt.

Guilty.

Always.

Brinner

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 13 Dec 2005 01:37:58 -0800 - there was

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica
I was thinking. I was thinking, "hello, I wonder if Perrin has ever
seen a wolf before." And then I thought, "he lives in a farm town
whose major produce is apples and sheep. He has probably seen a wolf
before." And I finished off by thinking, "what a twat that Brinner guy
is" for perhaps half an hour before bed.

How does Janica feel about you thinking about me just before you 2 go
to bed?

She likes it. She says she likes it when I'm rough.




C&J

[Brinner]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 13 Dec 2005 01:37:58 -0800 - there was

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica
I was thinking. I was thinking, "hello, I wonder if Perrin has ever
seen a wolf before." And then I thought, "he lives in a farm town
whose major produce is apples and sheep. He has probably seen a wolf
before." And I finished off by thinking, "what a twat that Brinner guy
is" for perhaps half an hour before bed.

How does Janica feel about you thinking about me just before you 2 go
to bed?

She likes it. She says she likes it when I'm rough.

Thats very disturbing.

Brinner

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 13 Dec 2005 07:38:13 -0800 - there was

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Brinner
How does Janica feel about you thinking about me just before you 2 go
to bed?

She likes it. She says she likes it when I'm rough.

Thats very disturbing.

You asked.




C&J

[Brinner]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 13 Dec 2005 07:38:13 -0800 - there was

Post by Brinner

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Brinner
How does Janica feel about you thinking about me just before you 2 go
to bed?

She likes it. She says she likes it when I'm rough.

Thats very disturbing.

You asked.

I suppose I did.

Brinner

[Antonio Contreras]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:19:22 -0500 - there
was this guy, or something, called "Davian"

Post by Davian

Post by Donald S. Crankshaw
Ah, but blind luck's what he's best at. I consider Mat's luck on a par
with Perrin's wolfbrotherhood or Rand's channeling, although others here
have disagreed with me. I think he'd have it even if he weren't
ta'veren.

I doubt that. At one point during the series, Mat thinks to himself that he
doesn't remember being especially lucky at any time until he obtained the ruby
dagger. (Which would be only a short time after he became ta'veren.) It's
very likely that if it was not for the chance altering effects of ta'veren,
Mat would have remained pretty ordinary.

So he 'became' ta'veren at some point, did he?
The main reason I had for thinking Mat's luck was something brought on
in the course of the first few books was, we don't know whether
ta'veren is something that is with you from birth (the only ta'veren
baby we know much about is Rand, and he would be a special case
because he's the Dragon), or whether it, like channeling, is something
that develops at a certain age.

<snip to EOF>

IIRC in tEotW, Loial explains to Rand what a ta'veren is. He tells Rand
about the Pattern, and the lives of people being the threads in the
Pattern. Sometimes the Pattern bends a thread in a certain way that
forces other threads to spin arround it. That thread is a ta'veren. All
the threads that are affect are a web of destiny, a ta'maral'aileen
(sp?). Webs of destiny vary in size (from a village to the whole
pattern) and in duration (some days, weeks, months or years).

Based in this description given by Loail, I am inclined to believe that
ta'veren status (chance twisting and all the parafernalia) only lasts
while the web of destiny is active. So Rand, Mat and Perrin have been
ta'veren from the moment the Trollocs attacked the Emond's Field till
now, and will be for some time to come (till TG at the very least).

[Davian]

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:19:22 -0500 - there
was this guy, or something, called "Davian"

Post by Davian

Post by Donald S. Crankshaw
Ah, but blind luck's what he's best at. I consider Mat's luck on a par
with Perrin's wolfbrotherhood or Rand's channeling, although others here
have disagreed with me. I think he'd have it even if he weren't
ta'veren.

I doubt that. At one point during the series, Mat thinks to himself that he
doesn't remember being especially lucky at any time until he obtained the ruby
dagger. (Which would be only a short time after he became ta'veren.)

It's

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Davian
very likely that if it was not for the chance altering effects of ta'veren,
Mat would have remained pretty ordinary.

So he 'became' ta'veren at some point, did he?

*Piggybacking since I don't see originals from Chucky*

Yes. Jordan has described ta'verenness in the books as a temporary state.
Ta'veren does not appear to be something you are born with. If it was, it
woudl be especially easy to spot, due to the obvious signs. Wierd twisting
of chance, etc.

Post by Antonio Contreras

Post by Chucky & Janica
The main reason I had for thinking Mat's luck was something brought on
in the course of the first few books was, we don't know whether
ta'veren is something that is with you from birth (the only ta'veren
baby we know much about is Rand, and he would be a special case
because he's the Dragon), or whether it, like channeling, is something
that develops at a certain age.

This would seem to preclude the possibility of a child Ta'veren. Which I
think would be a mistake. You're either effecting the pattern or you are
not... I don't think age or birth has anything to do with it, really.

<snip to EOF>

Post by Antonio Contreras
IIRC in tEotW, Loial explains to Rand what a ta'veren is. He tells Rand
about the Pattern, and the lives of people being the threads in the
Pattern. Sometimes the Pattern bends a thread in a certain way that
forces other threads to spin arround it. That thread is a ta'veren. All
the threads that are affect are a web of destiny, a ta'maral'aileen
(sp?). Webs of destiny vary in size (from a village to the whole
pattern) and in duration (some days, weeks, months or years).
Based in this description given by Loail, I am inclined to believe that
ta'veren status (chance twisting and all the parafernalia) only lasts
while the web of destiny is active. So Rand, Mat and Perrin have been
ta'veren from the moment the Trollocs attacked the Emond's Field till
now, and will be for some time to come (till TG at the very least).

If I remember the scene correctly, Loial even says straight out that it ends
at some point. Makes some sort of comment about how it can last for just a
few years, or how it can grow to encompass the entire pattern.

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:37:53 -0500 - there
was this guy, or something, called "Davian"

Post by Davian

Post by Antonio Contreras
Based in this description given by Loail, I am inclined to believe that
ta'veren status (chance twisting and all the parafernalia) only lasts
while the web of destiny is active. So Rand, Mat and Perrin have been
ta'veren from the moment the Trollocs attacked the Emond's Field till
now, and will be for some time to come (till TG at the very least).

If I remember the scene correctly, Loial even says straight out that it ends
at some point. Makes some sort of comment about how it can last for just a
few years, or how it can grow to encompass the entire pattern.

*nod*

I'm still not convinced about Mat's luck being a ta'veren effect,
though.





C&J

[Donald S. Crankshaw]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:37:53 -0500 - there
was this guy, or something, called "Davian"

Post by Davian

Post by Antonio Contreras
Based in this description given by Loail, I am inclined to believe that
ta'veren status (chance twisting and all the parafernalia) only lasts
while the web of destiny is active. So Rand, Mat and Perrin have been
ta'veren from the moment the Trollocs attacked the Emond's Field till
now, and will be for some time to come (till TG at the very least).

If I remember the scene correctly, Loial even says straight out that it ends
at some point. Makes some sort of comment about how it can last for just a
few years, or how it can grow to encompass the entire pattern.

*nod*
I'm still not convinced about Mat's luck being a ta'veren effect,
though.

Like I said, not everyone believes me. But concerning Mat's luck, the
first indication of it in the books was when everyone was dicing near
the beginning of tGH, and Mat says, "I seem to have luck with the dice.
I can hardly touch them without winning." (Chapter 3, tGH) There's
also a mention of dicing with Hurin, in Chapter 28 of tDR. where Mat
says, "We gambled for coppers, Nynaeve, and he would not even do that
after a while." So clearly Mat's luck existed before his Healing, but
did it exist before he left the Two Rivers? Well, consider Mat's
attitude when he first wakes up. From the very beginning he's talking
about his luck, and he's confident of his ability to win the money he
needs with dice: "He stooped to peer back into the shelf. _Where are
they?_ He began to be afraid the Aes Sedai might have thrown them out,
the way his mother would if she had even found them. _Where...?_ He
felt a surge of relief. Way in the back...were his two dice cups...With
these, his two marks would become enough to take him far away from Tar
Valon." (Chapter 20, tDR) But the kicker is this one, from Chapter 30
of tDR: "He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky.
But somehow, his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky
as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great
deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure
would succeed." Davian believes the luck is pure ta'vereness, but I see
it differently. Mat's always been lucky, but since leaving the Two
Rivers it has grown. Why? Well, why did Rand start channeling? Why
did Perrin's become a Wolfbrother? The stresses of the journey and the
demands of their situations, the unique encounters with unworldly
forces--in short, the way the Pattern shapes ta'veren--forced these
abilities to develop. So, yes, the fact that Mat's ta'veren influences
his luck, sometimes it works for it and sometimes against it (in fact, I
tend to think the sensation of rattling dice is Mat's luck at work,
responding to the dangers and situations the Pattern forces on him).
Anyway, you're free to disagree. The oldbies have heard, and discarded,
my arguments concerning Mat's luck and Mat's memories, Mat this and Mat
that before--hey, he's my favorite character, what can I say? Just keep
in mind that while I'm wrong with lots of my predictions, most of my Mat
theories end up being correct. I called his memories correctly when _no
one_ agreed with me.

-Donald S. Crankshaw

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:24:04 -0500 -
there was this guy, or something, called "Donald S. Crankshaw"

Post by Donald S. Crankshaw
"He stooped to peer back into the shelf. _Where are
they?_ He began to be afraid the Aes Sedai might have thrown them out,
the way his mother would if she had even found them. _Where...?_ He
felt a surge of relief. Way in the back...were his two dice cups...With
these, his two marks would become enough to take him far away from Tar
Valon."

This, to me, implies weighted dice. But if it's just the cups ...

You know what? I don't even find Mat interesting enough to continue
this. That's sad.





C&J

[Donald S. Crankshaw]

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:24:04 -0500 -
there was this guy, or something, called "Donald S. Crankshaw"

Post by Donald S. Crankshaw
"He stooped to peer back into the shelf. _Where are
they?_ He began to be afraid the Aes Sedai might have thrown them out,
the way his mother would if she had even found them. _Where...?_ He
felt a surge of relief. Way in the back...were his two dice cups...With
these, his two marks would become enough to take him far away from Tar
Valon."

This, to me, implies weighted dice. But if it's just the cups ...
You know what? I don't even find Mat interesting enough to continue
this. That's sad.

Bite your tongue! Mat's the reason I'm still reading this series.
There aren't many other characters I find interesting, much less fun to
read.

In any case, they definitely weren't weighted. The concept of weighted
dice didn't even seem to occur to Mat before Thom suggested it.

-Donald S. Crankshaw

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Sat, 10 Dec 2005 20:15:22 -0500 -
there was this guy, or something, called "Donald S. Crankshaw"

Post by Donald S. Crankshaw

Post by Chucky & Janica
You know what? I don't even find Mat interesting enough to continue
this. That's sad.

Bite your tongue! Mat's the reason I'm still reading this series.
There aren't many other characters I find interesting, much less fun to
read.

Fair enough.

We think he is a dumb whining tool. But to each his own. And by that I
do not mean to imply that I think you are a dumb whining tool. *grin*




C&J

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 7 Dec 2005 07:52:26 -0800 - there was
this guy, or something, called "Antonio Contreras"

Post by Antonio Contreras
Based in this description given by Loail, I am inclined to believe that
ta'veren status (chance twisting and all the parafernalia) only lasts
while the web of destiny is active. So Rand, Mat and Perrin have been
ta'veren from the moment the Trollocs attacked the Emond's Field till
now, and will be for some time to come (till TG at the very least).

Good point. I'll salute that.

*salutes*





C&J

[dwn]

KOD Spoilers Below
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
This isn't directly related to the parent post, but it's something I
noticed last night when rereading a few KOD chapters last night.

The Seanchan obviously take names very very seriously. Da'covale and
damane aren't allowed to refer to themselves with pronouns, and often
have their given names changed. You take a new name when you reach a
certain age, and again when you get a major change in social standing.
It's "bad luck" to think on a new name before you take it. Tuon and
Selucia made a big deal of 'renaming' Egeanin as Leilwin Shipless, and
Egeanin finally embraced that name when she decided to fully accept her
new life. In Seanchan POVs (and dialogue), Women who can channel are
always marath'damane or damane and "Aes Sedai" is almost never used
except when referring to the abstract organization.

More specifically (and to the point), in Tuon's POV (KOD, As if the
World were Fog) she makes a mistake. When thinking about Teslyn,
Joline and Edesina, she thinks about them as "Aes Sedai" and more
importantly "Joline." She still thinks of Egeanin, Amathera and Juilin
as "Leilwin," "property," and "the thief" respectively, and also of the
marath'damane being leashed. She never wavers on "Toy."

It's subtle and vague, but I think it shows that Tuon's views on women
who can channel have been shifted a bit, though she may not yet have
realized it.

-- dwn

[Tim Bruening]

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Post by Emma
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSpoiler
space
So while reading the book I pretty much figured that Mat and Tuon were
going to finally get hitched. What kept plagueing me is why Tuon would
marry Mat. She didn't seem to love, maybe be intrigued a little by him
but hardly enough to constitute marriage. Mat accidentally did his
part. I can accept that but then she finishes the ceremony and with a
really weak reason. She says she finishes it because he was the one in
the prophecy so the only reason she did it was because of the prophecy.
It just seems dumb for the prophecy to be the cause. Prophecies
should happen regardless of whether they are spoken or not otherwise
its not a true prophecy. Right now it seems that if she did not
recieve the prophecy she would never have married him. It seems like
poor plot planning to me. Did anyone else see the same thing?

If Mat hadn't received that "You will marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons" prophecy, he would not have started to marry Tuon in the first place!

[Legolas]

"Emma" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
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Post by Emma
space
So while reading the book I pretty much figured
that Mat and Tuon were going to finally get hitched.
What kept plagueing me is why Tuon would marry Mat.
She didn't seem to love, maybe be intrigued a little
by him but hardly enough to constitute marriage.
Mat accidentally did his part. I can accept that
but then she finishes the ceremony and with a really
weak reason. She says she finishes it because he was
the one in the prophecy so the only reason she did it
was because of the prophecy. It just seems dumb for
the prophecy to be the cause. Prophecies should
happen regardless of whether they are spoken or not
otherwise its not a true prophecy. Right now it
seems that if she did not recieve the prophecy she
would never have married him. It seems like poor
plot planning to me. Did anyone else see the same
thing?

I agree with you. It's a little lame from a romantic point of view,
because it appears they are both acting to fulfill the prophecy only.

But it's the same all over the story. For example, Rand went to
conquer the Stone of Tear *because* a prophecy said only the Dragon
Reborn would be able to do it, so if he did it, people will
acknowledge him and rally around him. He went to the Aiel Waste
because of a prophecy, etc.. (They were exciting times, actually, for
us readers. Rand's storyline started to get dull when there were no
more great prophecies for him to fulfill before TG.)

In this "wheel of repeating events" world people know for certain that
prophecies are going to happen because they've happened before with
every turn of the wheel. ALL their prophecies come true and must come
true, so they actively contribute towards realising them. They're more
like planned and inevitable events.

Here's a quote from The Guide, ch1, pg6:
"No one knows the length of time... [snip]. Prophecies are believed
and heeded, since they tell as much of what was as what will be. The
only questions are when and in what manner the prophecies will unfold.
In such a world, change is simply a predetermined part of the
mechanism."

Rand's thoughts would be something like: "OK, I'm convinced now that
I'm the Dragon Reborn, so Sally, please read me the DR's agenda for
next week."

[Bill E. Brooks]

Post by Emma
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SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSpoiler

space

I agree with you. It's a little lame from a romantic point of view,
because it appears they are both acting to fulfill the prophecy only.
But it's the same all over the story. For example, Rand went to
conquer the Stone of Tear *because* a prophecy said only the Dragon
Reborn would be able to do it, so if he did it, people will
acknowledge him and rally around him.
In this "wheel of repeating events" world people know for certain that
prophecies are going to happen because they've happened before with
every turn of the wheel. ALL their prophecies come true and must come
true, so they actively contribute towards realising them. They're more
like planned and inevitable events.

Logain also marched to take Tear as well, but was stopped. Guaire
Amalasan also tried to take the Stone of Tear, but failed. Only the
true Dragon Reborn was able to succeed. That's what makes it more than
just a self-fulfilling prophecy.

-Bill E. Brooks

[Diamond3Bob]

Well I would first say that it clearly looks like Tuon will eventually
come to love Mat; all the signs are there
(1) he's a great general; (2) she certainly finds him interesting and
fairly mysterious - she can't quite figure him out;
(3) her original assessment was based on seeing him in Ebo Dar as the
Queen's toy - not the best circumstances
for her to respect him, which would be critical for her to fall in
love; (4) more lately she sees him a a lion in his environment.
Second, Tuon was trained from birth to marry for the empire, not for
love. She would not have to love Mat to marry him
if she thought marrying him was necessary for some other goal. And
then, there is the prophesy which cements the deal.