I miss the old WoT books....

[ConquerorMarr]

Back before it became a soap opera ("Oh no, my evil uncle!"). Back
when a lone Half Man inspired terror. Back when there were truly
fantastic things in Randland that seemed beyond the character's
comprehension.
I think George R. R. Martin hit the nail on the head when he said the
over use of magic was a terrible thing in fantasy. The over use of the
one power took away all the mystique of the books and made the bad guys
so much less threatening ("Oh, the Forsaken are rallying to stop us
from cleansing the taint, eh? NUKE 'EM!"). So now all Rand really has
to get over to save the world is his own stupidity and romantic life.
How exciting.
And then there is the way that everything seems so explainable now (The
trollocs are just bio engineered, the "Bubbles of Evil" could be a
subspace distortion out of Star Trek) so that it really does ot feel
like fantasy. There are still some things that have a feeling of
mystery, like Aelfinn/Eelfinn and Fain's condition, but I am afraid
those may be over simplified too. I like fantasy worlds like the first
WoT books set up (the Green Man, the awesome power of Baalzamon, etc.),
or Memory, Sorrow and Thorn (the Sithi's roots were hinted at, but
never really explained, and a number of other things in the book
suggested that there was a lot more to the world than any of the
characters knew) or A Song of Ice and Fire (The Others remind me of the
early Myrdraal).
Don't get me wrong, I will read the rest of the series, especially
since Jordan says the last scene is so great it has remained unchanged
all these years, but I wish the series had kept the fantasy feel of the
early books. If you made it this far, thanks for reading my moaning.

[Alex Mars]

The pulling back of the curtain, exposing the mysteries, is part of
learning how the world really works and learning the real history
instead of the distorted myths.

[Lorfarius]

Post by Alex Mars
The pulling back of the curtain, exposing the mysteries, is part of
learning how the world really works and learning the real history
instead of the distorted myths.

But look what it did to the Star Wars franchise when they explained what the
force was made of. It ruined it, spoilt the mystery. I have to agree with
the OP, theres not much mystery left in the novels anymore.

[Hrishikesh Diwan]

Hmm... there are still some mysteries left - not the least of which is,
how will Rand defeat the Dark One... "His blood on the rocks of Shayol
Ghul..." - was the prophecy talking about his blood literally, or Luc/
Galad (who qualify as his blood)? What's with the Aelfinn and Eelfinn
and Moiraine and Mat and the Tower of Ghenjei? What' with the Eye of
the World and the Horn of Valere? What was their intended purpose?

My point... There' still some mystery - but so long as RJ doesn't give
us more Rand POVs and less politics/ subplots etc. there's no fun.

My biggest fear is he will resolve the series without enough build-up;
I mean when he wrote The Dragon Reborn, it was exciting. We could all
see the threads coming together for the unveliing of Callandor in Tear.
Heck, even the Fires of Heaven had a great climax with Rahvin killing
Mat and the balefire solution with Nynaeve and Moghi attending in
dreamland... But look at Winter's heart - you have no idea what Rand is
doing until the last moment. And even then, not all the threads in the
novel are contributing to that awesome plan.

So yeah... I half agree - the series has lost some of its charm, but
its more because of the overuse of politics and subplots. Like so much
crap clogging the loo... .

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Hrishikesh Diwan
Hmm... there are still some mysteries left - not the least of which is,
how will Rand defeat the Dark One... "

WHO THE FUCK KILLED ASMODEAN YOU SMUG SICK BASTARD ASSHOLE?!


(Sorry to tack that onto your post incidentally, it's not aimed at you.)


Jasper

[Aaron]

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Hrishikesh Diwan
Hmm... there are still some mysteries left - not the least of which is,
how will Rand defeat the Dark One... "

WHO THE FUCK KILLED ASMODEAN YOU SMUG SICK BASTARD ASSHOLE?!
(Sorry to tack that onto your post incidentally, it's not aimed at you.)
Jasper

I must vent also (re-reading)

YOU MEANT FOR TAIM TO BE DEMANDRED, YOU FUCKWIT. DASHIVA WAS ARANGAR
ALL ALONG MY ASS! THAT WAS A HAM-FISTED ATTEMPT TO GET OUT OF IT IN
WINTER'S HEART, WITH TAIM AND DEMANDRED GIVING THE SAME ORDERS, EVEN
FOR YOUR USUAL POOR WRITING STYLE.

Ahh. I feel better now. Flame on, if you want, but Taim was too subtle
(on first readings) to be a red herring, especially for RJ.

-Aaron

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, 28 Sep 2005 05:14:38 -0700 - there was

Post by Aaron
YOU MEANT FOR TAIM TO BE DEMANDRED, YOU FUCKWIT.

People who say that ... are fuckwits.



C&J

[Ilya the Recusant]

In a not so bright galaxy nowhere near intelligent space, Chucky &

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 28 Sep 2005 05:14:38 -0700 - there was

Post by Aaron
YOU MEANT FOR TAIM TO BE DEMANDRED, YOU FUCKWIT.

People who say that ... are fuckwits.

Fanboys...thinking that they can tell RJ how to write his books.

Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J

Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
----
www.livejournal.com/users/ohilya

[Chucky & Janica]

Once upon a time - for example, Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:44:51 -0500 -
there was this guy, or something, called Ilya the Recusant

Post by Ilya the Recusant

Post by Chucky & Janica

Post by Aaron
YOU MEANT FOR TAIM TO BE DEMANDRED, YOU FUCKWIT.

People who say that ... are fuckwits.

Fanboys...thinking that they can tell RJ how to write his books.

Yes, aka fuckwits.

Heh, mind you - lots of people could, and do, tell Jordan how to write
his books. And are usually quite on the ball.



C&J

[Aaron]

Hamfisted. It's worse than being a fuckwit.

[Ilya the Recusant]

In a not so bright galaxy nowhere near intelligent space, "Aaron"

Post by Aaron
Hamfisted. It's worse than being a fuckwit.

Tell us about it.


Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
----
www.livejournal.com/users/ohilya

[David Chapman]

Post by Ilya the Recusant
In a not so bright galaxy nowhere near intelligent space, Chucky &

Post by Chucky & Janica
Once upon a time - for example, 28 Sep 2005 05:14:38 -0700 - there was

Post by Aaron
YOU MEANT FOR TAIM TO BE DEMANDRED, YOU FUCKWIT.

People who say that ... are fuckwits.

Fanboys...thinking that they can tell RJ how to write his books.

When so far, all they've achieved is to tell him how *not* to write them.

[Alex Mars]

I'd never tell RJ what to write, I'd just tell him what to edit.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Alex Mars
I'd never tell RJ what to write, I'd just tell him what to edit.

What would you tell him to edit if he were still alive?

[ConquerorMarr]

Post by Jasper Janssen

Post by Hrishikesh Diwan
Hmm... there are still some mysteries left - not the least of which is,
how will Rand defeat the Dark One... "

WHO THE FUCK KILLED ASMODEAN YOU SMUG SICK BASTARD ASSHOLE?!
(Sorry to tack that onto your post incidentally, it's not aimed at you.)
Jasper

Who shot JR? Maybe one of the characters will wake up and realize that
the last few books were all a dream....
As for Taim's true identity, I agree that it was kind of a jerk around,
but as a huge Twighlight Zone fan I can appreciate that.

[Alex Mars]

Post by Lorfarius
But look what it did to the Star Wars franchise when they explained what the
force was made of. It ruined it, spoilt the mystery. I have to agree with
the OP, theres not much mystery left in the novels anymore.

Well, in RJs vision, there were no mysteries back in the AoL, magic was
akin to science and fully understood. It seems to me that the whole
point of WoT is to strip away the myth to reveal the truth. I see it
as the story evolving as the truth is learned, the characters can't
stay mired in myth and legend through the whole process. The
characters and story would be stagnant then.

Even if you go back to JRRT, you find that if you look deep enough you
will find that myth and mystery is stripped away. Orcs were
essentially "bioengineered" through selective breeding, back in the
second age you had platoons of balrogs fighting platoons of powerful
elven lords, the all powerful Sauron was really only a lieutenant of
the even more powerful Morgoth, etc.

Besides, as we finally close in on the end of the saga the mysteries
have to be revealed, the party goers have to take off their masks, and
the music will eventually stop.

And finally, 12 books of inept farm boys bumbling around in the dark,
scared of their own shadow would have been boring. Given the scope of
the story, the power of the characters have to grow to unreasonable
levels.

[ConquerorMarr]

I understand that the revelation of mysteries and increasing powers of
the characters is a natural part of any series like this, but it is
something that has to be done carefully. 12 books inept farmboys
bumbling around in the dark would have been boring, but when the Dark
One's elite throw themselves desperatly at the good guys and are mowed
down I feel like some of the tension building up towards the climax has
been lost. Things should be revealed, and by the end Rand certainly
must take on God like powers (he is, after all, the savior of the
world), but it seems like Rand devloped too fast so that we have had a
few books where there was no struggle (except Rand coming to terms with
his bigamy). I agree with Diwan that there are still some aspects that
intrigue me (what is the Dark One's master plan? What role will the
Aelfinn/Eelfinn play?) and there are still some enemies who have yet to
get their butts kicked, but the plot has stalled in a mire of minor
politics and relationship squabbles that aren't really that involving
leaving the series in kind of a rut.
Alex brings up JRRT and how he thoroughly explained the history of
Middle Earth, but even in the Silmarillion Tolkein managed (for me, at
least) to keep the magic as something strange and elusive. It FELT
like myths and legends, with lone heroes who cripple unstoppable giants
and all consuming spiders :D. Sorry, I am not an English major, so I
have some trouble pinning down the exact feeling.
I can understand RJ's motive to make the one power more of a scientific
force that could be controlled, and to have the series be largely about
rediscovering what was lost in the Age of Legends, but by doing too
much too quickly he really hampered the series. I hope RJ can pull it
out, esp. since the ending has been planned, maybe the series just got
lost in the middle and now it will find the path again and kick ass.
To paraphrase a quote from someone whose name I have forgotten, a good
story is like a skirt; it should be long enough to cover the topic but
short enough to keep it interesting. WoT is starting to feel like a
burka.

[Hrishikesh Diwan]

lol @ the burka...

If you think about it, in the Silmarillion, JRRT never really got deep
into the Valar and the politics of Valinor once the Elves left...
Beyond Numenor, the shores on the west are simply enigma... I like
that.

But imagine if JRRT had gone into the details of the noble houses of
Gondor and Rohan playing Daes Dae'mar... :) That woulda hurt LOTR...
And Eowyn woulda sniffed at Wormtongue (or tugged her braid)

[Alex Mars]

but the plot has stalled in a mire of minor politics and relationship squabbles that aren't really that >involving leaving the series in kind of a rut

Well, now we have verged into the volatile topic of his pacing and the
possible need for someone to edit his work a bit tighter...

but by doing too much too quickly he really hampered the series.

I don't think he revealed too much too quickly as much I think he
revealed things at a good pace at first and then stalled the story.
You are certainly right in that the minutae of Rands personal life grew
a bit overlarge in relation to the rest of the story.

[m***@thuk.co.uk]

Post by Hrishikesh Diwan
If you think about it, in the Silmarillion, JRRT never really got deep
into the Valar and the politics of Valinor once the Elves left...
Beyond Numenor, the shores on the west are simply enigma... I like
that.
But imagine if JRRT had gone into the details of the noble houses of
Gondor and Rohan playing Daes Dae'mar... :) That woulda hurt LOTR...
And Eowyn woulda sniffed at Wormtongue (or tugged her braid)

MM I think a Sword is more Eowyn's style

RE Daes Dae'mar in LOTR well if you read the apedixes there s a lot on
the plotical/milatery struggle in Gondor/Rohan all that Kinstrife stuff
for example.

[Aaron]

Post by m***@thuk.co.uk

Post by Hrishikesh Diwan
If you think about it, in the Silmarillion, JRRT never really got deep
into the Valar and the politics of Valinor once the Elves left...
Beyond Numenor, the shores on the west are simply enigma... I like
that.
But imagine if JRRT had gone into the details of the noble houses of
Gondor and Rohan playing Daes Dae'mar... :) That woulda hurt LOTR...
And Eowyn woulda sniffed at Wormtongue (or tugged her braid)

MM I think a Sword is more Eowyn's style

Yes, I would much rather see a tale of Eowyn tugging my sword instead
of her braid.

Post by m***@thuk.co.uk
RE Daes Dae'mar in LOTR well if you read the apedixes there s a lot on
the plotical/milatery struggle in Gondor/Rohan all that Kinstrife stuff
for example.