death of asmodean question

[kal stevens]

I am really not trying to convince anyone, I know that at this point
everyone is so set in their theories that only a statement from Jordan
can resolve this.

But what other explanation for why Cyndane is weaker than lanfear other
than she gave it up for her wishes? I have not heard any other
satisfactory answer for this question.

Secondly as I was reading it I thought her motive was not because
Asmodean was teaching Rand it was because Asmodean was the evidence
that Lanfear betrayed the Dark One. If they recaptured Asmodean then
he would tell that he was forced and shielded by Lanfear, and she would
be in deap S***. So she made a wish in some way that she could kill
Asmodean but not touch the shadow, then she BFed Asmodean so that he
would "Die the final death" and the DO would not be able to bring her
back.

I dont know how she could phrase her wish so that it would not touch
the shadow, and yet know where Asmodean was going to be.

Maybe when Moiraine comes back she will be able to say what if any
wishes were made.

[Yaser Zhian]

Post by kal stevens
I am really not trying to convince anyone, I know that at this point
everyone is so set in their theories that only a statement from Jordan
can resolve this.
But what other explanation for why Cyndane is weaker than lanfear other
than she gave it up for her wishes? I have not heard any other
satisfactory answer for this question.

Maybe this is beside the point but when Nynaeve heals Siuan and
Leane, they are considerably weaker than before they were stilled.

(Of course, when Nynaeve Heals Logain or when Damer Flinn -- I
think that was his name -- Heals the stilled Aes Sedai from Dumai's
Well, there is no mention of this. This weaker-after-Healing-after-you-
-were-severed thing is probably dependant on sex. So maybe Moridin
somehow learned the Healing trick (He may be an accomplished
Healer. Remember when he Healed Lews Therin's madness? Note
that Healing mental illnesses is probably considered a tough thing
to master.) and Healed Lanfear/Cyndane.)

That said, I don't think that Cyndane is much weaker in power than
Lanfear was. At least I don't recall any passages saying so.

Like our friend, I'm not trying to prove anything.

-yzt

[liknar]

This is just a personal opinion with nothing to back it up. I think
somehow Lanfear and Moiraine switch connections to the source. I think
it will be very tolken-esk for Moiraine to come back stronger than
before like Gandalf the white, and Moiraine was weaker than Lanfear but
still considered very stong maybe as strong as Cyndane is now.
-Liknar

[Brinner]

Post by liknar
This is just a personal opinion with nothing to back it up. I think
somehow Lanfear and Moiraine switch connections to the source. I think
it will be very tolken-esk for Moiraine to come back stronger than
before like Gandalf the white, and Moiraine was weaker than Lanfear but
still considered very stong maybe as strong as Cyndane is now.
-Liknar

Moiraine wasn't even as strong as Cadsuane, never mind Cydane who
happens to be above Moghdien as far as I remember.

Brinner

[Zachary A]

Post by Brinner

Post by liknar
This is just a personal opinion with nothing to back it up. I think
somehow Lanfear and Moiraine switch connections to the source. I think
it will be very tolken-esk for Moiraine to come back stronger than
before like Gandalf the white, and Moiraine was weaker than Lanfear but
still considered very stong maybe as strong as Cyndane is now.
-Liknar

Moiraine wasn't even as strong as Cadsuane, never mind Cydane who
happens to be above Moghdien as far as I remember.
Brinner

Moiraine didn't exceed Cads in NS. However, her potential,
and Siuan's if I recall correctly, exceeded that of Cads.

Now, for fact and speculation.
Fact: Nynaeve was as strong as Moggie in Tanchico.
Speculation: Nynaeve still has potential to grow into at this point.
Speculation: Moi may still be stronger than Nyn at this stage.
Speculation: Moi is at least as strong as Moggy.

Now, if Moiraine is at least as strong as one FS class channeler
who is to say where exactly she fits in the ranking? Meaning it
could be possible for the power switch to work.

A possible hole in the argument is caused by Egwene though.
Egwene was forced to her full potential at Falme, I believe. Now,
if Egwene's full potential is greater than Moi's but lower than
Nyn's at Tanchico then the power switch explanation is impossible.

That is a fairly convoluted sentence, so I will reiterate with MATH
and MATHEMATICAL symbols.

If: Moggy = Nyn > Eg > Moi
And: Moggy = Lowest ranking female Forsaken
Then: Moi != Moggy < Graendal < Cyndane
Therefore: Moi != Cyndane

Opinions? Statements?

- Zac

[Brinner]

Post by Zachary A

Post by Brinner

Post by liknar
This is just a personal opinion with nothing to back it up. I think
somehow Lanfear and Moiraine switch connections to the source. I think
it will be very tolken-esk for Moiraine to come back stronger than
before like Gandalf the white, and Moiraine was weaker than Lanfear but
still considered very stong maybe as strong as Cyndane is now.
-Liknar

Moiraine wasn't even as strong as Cadsuane, never mind Cydane who
happens to be above Moghdien as far as I remember.
Brinner

Moiraine didn't exceed Cads in NS. However, her potential,
and Siuan's if I recall correctly, exceeded that of Cads.

Nope, I'm fairly sure you're wrong there. I seem to remember that when
refering the Moiraines potential in NS she is annoyed by the fact that
Moi will be in the first tier of AS channellers when it comes to
strength in a few decades, even though Moi isn't as strong as Cads.

Post by Zachary A
Now, for fact and speculation.
Fact: Nynaeve was as strong as Moggie in Tanchico.
Speculation: Nynaeve still has potential to grow into at this point.
Speculation: Moi may still be stronger than Nyn at this stage.
Speculation: Moi is at least as strong as Moggy.
Now, if Moiraine is at least as strong as one FS class channeler
who is to say where exactly she fits in the ranking? Meaning it
could be possible for the power switch to work.
A possible hole in the argument is caused by Egwene though.
Egwene was forced to her full potential at Falme, I believe. Now,
if Egwene's full potential is greater than Moi's but lower than
Nyn's at Tanchico then the power switch explanation is impossible.
That is a fairly convoluted sentence, so I will reiterate with MATH
and MATHEMATICAL symbols.
If: Moggy = Nyn > Eg > Moi
And: Moggy = Lowest ranking female Forsaken
Then: Moi != Moggy < Graendal < Cyndane
Therefore: Moi != Cyndane
Opinions? Statements?

Cyndane is definitly stronger that Moi.

Brinner

[Yaser Zhian]

Post by Zachary A

Post by Brinner

Post by liknar
This is just a personal opinion with nothing to back it up. I think
somehow Lanfear and Moiraine switch connections to the source. I think
it will be very tolken-esk for Moiraine to come back stronger than
before like Gandalf the white, and Moiraine was weaker than Lanfear but
still considered very stong maybe as strong as Cyndane is now.
-Liknar

Moiraine wasn't even as strong as Cadsuane, never mind Cydane who
happens to be above Moghdien as far as I remember.
Brinner

Moiraine didn't exceed Cads in NS. However, her potential,
and Siuan's if I recall correctly, exceeded that of Cads.
Now, for fact and speculation.
Fact: Nynaeve was as strong as Moggie in Tanchico.
Speculation: Nynaeve still has potential to grow into at this point.
Speculation: Moi may still be stronger than Nyn at this stage.
Speculation: Moi is at least as strong as Moggy.
Now, if Moiraine is at least as strong as one FS class channeler
who is to say where exactly she fits in the ranking? Meaning it
could be possible for the power switch to work.
Opinions? Statements?
- Zac

I don't think there's any question that Moi and the general
run of "powerful" Aes Sedai (Cadsuane, Siuan before being
stilled, Sheriam, etc., excluding the Super Girls and the
new finds) are far weaker than the Forsaken.

For example, in DR, when the 10 Aes Sedai are Healing Mat
using the most powerful sa'angreal the Tower has in its
possession, Nynaeve (after only a few weaks in the Tower)
says that she doesn't think she can handle half as much as
they! Siuan, Leane and Sheriam are among those 10 and they
are all considered powerful Aes Sedai.

So Zac, my friend, since you are so fond of higher math,
let's do some. If

Power of the 10 AS + sa'angreal effect <= 2 * early Ny power

then we can safely assume that

Siuan's power <<< early Nynaeve's power

then since we know that Moi's power ~= Siuan's power,

Moi's <<< early Ny < later Ny ~= Moggy < Cyndane.

QED.

-yzt

[Tim Bruening]

Post by liknar
This is just a personal opinion with nothing to back it up. I think
somehow Lanfear and Moiraine switch connections to the source. I think
it will be very tolken-esk for Moiraine to come back stronger than
before like Gandalf the white, and Moiraine was weaker than Lanfear but
still considered very stong maybe as strong as Cyndane is now.
-Liknar

If Lanfear and Moiraine have switched connections to the Source, would this
mean that Moiraine would come back with a connection to the DO?

[Paul W. Lints Jr.]

Post by Yaser Zhian

Post by kal stevens
I am really not trying to convince anyone, I know that at this point
everyone is so set in their theories that only a statement from Jordan
can resolve this.
But what other explanation for why Cyndane is weaker than lanfear other
than she gave it up for her wishes? I have not heard any other
satisfactory answer for this question.

Maybe this is beside the point but when Nynaeve heals Siuan and
Leane, they are considerably weaker than before they were stilled.

Actually, that seems the best supported reason from reading the books.
We know Moiraine is alive, so what else would snap her Warder bond? Her
being Stilled. What do we know that reduces a person's channeling
ability? Having their Stilling Healed by a person of the same gender.
The simplest and most logical explanation for both would be that
Moiraine and Lanfear were both Stilled when jumping through the doorway
while OP battling.

Post by Yaser Zhian
(Of course, when Nynaeve Heals Logain or when Damer Flinn -- I
think that was his name -- Heals the stilled Aes Sedai from Dumai's
Well, there is no mention of this. This weaker-after-Healing-after-you-
-were-severed thing is probably dependant on sex. So maybe Moridin
somehow learned the Healing trick (He may be an accomplished
Healer. Remember when he Healed Lews Therin's madness? Note
that Healing mental illnesses is probably considered a tough thing
to master.) and Healed Lanfear/Cyndane.)

By this point, knowledge of how to Heal Stilling the crappy F/F way is
known, but not the M/F way that doesn't result in reduced channeling
ability. It's a sure thing that there are DFs among the SAS, so one of
them could easily have Healed Lanfear (or Moggy could have, for that
matter). As for Ishamael and Healing, none of the Forsaken seem the
type for innovation.

Post by Yaser Zhian
That said, I don't think that Cyndane is much weaker in power than
Lanfear was. At least I don't recall any passages saying so.

ISTR Graendal saying Cyndane is weaker than even her, and Lanfear was a
good bit stronger (which is why she thought Cyndane couldn't be
Lanfear). Then again, it's been awhile since I've read WoT.

Post by Yaser Zhian
Like our friend, I'm not trying to prove anything.

[liknar]

Post by Paul W. Lints Jr.
By this point, knowledge of how to Heal Stilling the crappy F/F way is
known, but not the M/F way that doesn't result in reduced channeling
ability. It's a sure thing that there are DFs among the SAS, so one of
them could easily have Healed Lanfear (or Moggy could have, for that
matter). As for Ishamael and Healing, none of the Forsaken seem the
type for innovation.

It is just as likely that the M/F way is known. Dashiva is one of the
forsaken and he was their during the healing so he saw the weaves.

[Pat O'Connell]

Post by liknar

Post by Paul W. Lints Jr.
By this point, knowledge of how to Heal Stilling the crappy F/F way is
known, but not the M/F way that doesn't result in reduced channeling
ability. It's a sure thing that there are DFs among the SAS, so one of
them could easily have Healed Lanfear (or Moggy could have, for that
matter). As for Ishamael and Healing, none of the Forsaken seem the
type for innovation.

It is just as likely that the M/F way is known. Dashiva is one of the
forsaken and he was their during the healing so he saw the weaves.

But Daishiva's dead as of the end of WH. No evidence of resurrection
either.

[DarkSheer]

Post by Paul W. Lints Jr.

Post by Yaser Zhian

Post by kal stevens
I am really not trying to convince anyone, I know that at this point
everyone is so set in their theories that only a statement from
Jordan can resolve this.
But what other explanation for why Cyndane is weaker than lanfear
other than she gave it up for her wishes? I have not heard any
other satisfactory answer for this question.

Maybe this is beside the point but when Nynaeve heals Siuan and
Leane, they are considerably weaker than before they were stilled.

Actually, that seems the best supported reason from reading the books.
We know Moiraine is alive, so what else would snap her Warder bond? Her
being Stilled. What do we know that reduces a person's channeling
ability? Having their Stilling Healed by a person of the same gender.
The simplest and most logical explanation for both would be that
Moiraine and Lanfear were both Stilled when jumping through the
doorway while OP battling.

Yes, but it snapped as soon as she entered the gateway. Aparently going to
that demention will snap the bond. But for some reason it didn't when she
entered the first doorway. Maybe you are right to a point. Maybe they
broke the rules and battled while in that demension and the people that live
there punnished them by stilling them right away. Now, the question is,
will she still be powerless when they bring her back out? Prolly, but
that's easy enough to fix now.

Post by Paul W. Lints Jr.

Post by Yaser Zhian
(Of course, when Nynaeve Heals Logain or when Damer Flinn -- I
think that was his name -- Heals the stilled Aes Sedai from Dumai's
Well, there is no mention of this. This
weaker-after-Healing-after-you- -were-severed thing is probably
dependant on sex. So maybe Moridin somehow learned the Healing trick
(He may be an accomplished Healer. Remember when he Healed Lews Therin's
madness? Note
that Healing mental illnesses is probably considered a tough thing
to master.) and Healed Lanfear/Cyndane.)

I always figured the healing he did to LTT wasn't really healing in the true
sense of the word. It was a special trick that he learned from the DO that
was specially designed to get rid of the taint madness. Hell, it only took
him a second to complete it. Maybe he extended the protection he had from
the taint for a second and it got rid of it.

Post by Paul W. Lints Jr.
By this point, knowledge of how to Heal Stilling the crappy F/F way is
known, but not the M/F way that doesn't result in reduced channeling
ability. It's a sure thing that there are DFs among the SAS, so one
of them could easily have Healed Lanfear (or Moggy could have, for
that matter). As for Ishamael and Healing, none of the Forsaken seem
the type for innovation.

Now a question. Could Siuan be stilled again and re-healed by a man to gain
her full power back? I think it would be worth a try in their shoes.

Ryan

[Chris McCrohan]

Post by DarkSheer

Post by Paul W. Lints Jr.
Actually, that seems the best supported reason from reading the books.
We know Moiraine is alive, so what else would snap her Warder bond? Her
being Stilled. What do we know that reduces a person's channeling
ability? Having their Stilling Healed by a person of the same gender.
The simplest and most logical explanation for both would be that
Moiraine and Lanfear were both Stilled when jumping through the
doorway while OP battling.

Yes, but it snapped as soon as she entered the gateway. Aparently going to
that demention will snap the bond. But for some reason it didn't when she
entered the first doorway. Maybe you are right to a point. Maybe they
broke the rules and battled while in that demension and the people that live
there punnished them by stilling them right away. Now, the question is,
will she still be powerless when they bring her back out? Prolly, but
that's easy enough to fix now.

The most logical theory, in my mind, is that the reason Moiraine and
Lanfear were stilled when they entered Eelfinnland is because the were
both channeling, and that screwed up the wormhole/stargate/dimensional
gateway/whatever. The resulting backlash burned them both out, and also
melted the doorframe.

<snip>

Post by DarkSheer

Post by Paul W. Lints Jr.
By this point, knowledge of how to Heal Stilling the crappy F/F way is
known, but not the M/F way that doesn't result in reduced channeling
ability. It's a sure thing that there are DFs among the SAS, so one
of them could easily have Healed Lanfear (or Moggy could have, for
that matter). As for Ishamael and Healing, none of the Forsaken seem
the type for innovation.

Now a question. Could Siuan be stilled again and re-healed by a man to gain
her full power back? I think it would be worth a try in their shoes.
Ryan

Probably. I think that being having a stilling Healed by the same Power
you weild only restores part of your strength, but being Healed by the
opposite Power restores you to full strength. Therefore, if you get
stilled a second time, someone of the opposite sex should be able to
Heal you back to full strength. (I'd like to see Logain do that to
Leane, and then realize he loves her...)

Something I wonder - if your stilling is Healed by someone of the same
sex, could someone of the opposite sex then come along and Heal you
back to full strength without the need to be re-stilled?